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I abhor the "X undoes Y's accomplishments" criticism so much. — Page 2

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And yet they still stop that anyways, with Luke inspiring the galaxy, with the FO not doing so well and being in need of becoming a new Empire, and with the galaxy working together and defeating them in TROS.

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We’re talking about literal weeks away from total galactic supremacy? That’s a pretty big achievement! We learn during the imperial briefing scene in ANH the Empire never seized full control over the galaxy either, although they were trying to with the Death Star (but our heroes prevented that 😉). Sounds like a status quo reset to me.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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TestingOutTheTest said:

And yet they still stop that anyways, with Luke inspiring the galaxy, with the FO not doing so well and being in need of becoming a new Empire, and with the galaxy working together and defeating them in TROS.

Well, they stopped the First Order (just barely) from annihilating the Resistance entirely. But that doesn’t account for the rest of the Galaxy that’s being conquered by the First Order offscreen. The First Order wasn’t ignoring everything else just to focus on the Resistance alone. By the end of TLJ, the Resistance barely even exists anymore, and the First Order, despite its losses from the Holdo maneuver, essentially holds the Galaxy unopposed (which is part of why the ending of TLJ is so tone-deaf). TRoS then nerfs the First Order in order to make Palpatine’s fleet matter.

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@Servii Imagine ignoring everything else in my comment.

@act on instinct When does ANH establish that?

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TestingOutTheTest said:

@Servii Imagine ignoring everything else in my comment.

What you said doesn’t change the fact that the First Order had become the dominant, reigning power in the Galaxy by the end of TLJ. Just because they’re overthrown eventually doesn’t change what happened. The good guys failed to prevent the Empire from regaining control.

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TestingOutTheTest said:

But the takeover wasn’t complete. That’s the point.

Simply, we don’t know whether it was complete or not. We’re never told or shown either way. These movies are so damn vague in their worldbuilding that different people will have radically different interpretations of the state of the Galaxy during their events.

Even the question of “Was the New Republic actually destroyed in TFA” is a matter of fan contention.

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Simply, we don’t know whether it was complete or not. We’re never told or shown either way.

The crawl and Rey’s discussion with Luke say otherwise.

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TestingOutTheTest said:

Simply, we don’t know whether it was complete or not. We’re never told or shown either way.

The crawl and Rey’s discussion with Luke say otherwise.

All they said was that the takeover was in the process of being carried out. We have no idea if the First Order succeeded or failed elsewhere in the Galaxy. That’s the problem. Did the First Order complete its takeover within those next few weeks after TLJ? We don’t know.

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TestingOutTheTest said:

REY: The First Order will control all the major systems within weeks.

You’re not listening to what I’m trying to tell you. We know the First Order is in the process of seizing control during TLJ. We’re never told how successful they are in that effort during and after TLJ. Did the First Order gain control of those systems in the weeks following TLJ? Or didn’t they?

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They couldn’t have. If they did, then it WOULD be a rehash of the OT. And even in TROS, we know the FO isn’t doing so well - it’s what drives Kylo to hog Palpatine’s fleet to make the FO a true Empire.

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TestingOutTheTest said:

They couldn’t have. If they did, then it WOULD be a rehash of the OT.

I’ve got some bad news for you. It was too late. It was already a rehash. The whole ST is just a reboot disguised as a sequel.

And even in TROS, we know the FO isn’t doing so well - it’s what drives Kylo to hog Palpatine’s fleet to make the FO a true Empire.

TRoS is also very vague about the First Order’s level of power and reach. We hear Pryde say that the new fleet will make up for the loss of Starkiller Base, and Kylo makes some vague remark about how the fleet will finally make the FO into an Empire. But again, we never get a sense that the FO is struggling or losing its grip on the Galaxy. That’s just conjecture. We hear a fleeting mention of “free worlds” that will be forced to submit, but we never are shown or told anything about these worlds or their strength or quantity. And besides, during the OT, there existed worlds outside of the Empire’s control as well, but no one would argue that the Empire wasn’t the dominant, reigning power in those films.

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Servii said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

They couldn’t have. If they did, then it WOULD be a rehash of the OT.

I’ve got some bad news for you. It was too late. It was already a rehash. The whole ST is just a reboot disguised as a sequel.

I was referring to the premise that I mentioned. Whereas the OT is about their fall, the ST is about stopping their return.

And even in TROS, we know the FO isn’t doing so well - it’s what drives Kylo to hog Palpatine’s fleet to make the FO a true Empire.

TRoS is also very vague about the First Order’s level of power and reach. We hear Pryde say that the new fleet will make up for the loss of Starkiller Base, and Kylo makes some vague remark about how the fleet will finally make the FO into an Empire. But again, we never get a sense that the FO is struggling or losing its grip on the Galaxy. That’s just conjecture. We hear a fleeting mention of “free worlds” that will be forced to submit, but we never are shown or told anything about these worlds or their strength or quantity. And besides, during the OT, there existed worlds outside of the Empire’s control as well, but no one would argue that the Empire wasn’t the dominant, reigning power in those films.

Had the FO won in TLJ, then they would’ve become a true Empire.

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Had the FO won in TLJ, then they would’ve become a true Empire.

They did win in TLJ. It was a pyrrhic victory, sure, but the last major faction opposed to them had been reduced to almost nonexistence. I’d call that a win.

Just because the First Order doesn’t control literally 100% of the Galaxy post-TLJ doesn’t change the fact that they’re the ruling regime.

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Again, I was referring to the FO trying to take complete control. They didn’t complete it.

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Their goal was supposedly to take control of all major systems. As far as we know, they did.

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My point is that they didn’t complete their goal of controlling all major systems.

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It’s never said or shown that they didn’t. Considering that the Resistance are hiding out in the wilderness on a jungle planet in TRoS, that leads me to believe that the First Order did essentially succeed in taking the Galaxy, and that there are just a few planets (not major systems) that are still holding out.

But again, the real problem is that this is all so vaguely relayed to the audience that it doesn’t really matter. I doubt that JJ Abrams thought very deeply about the state of the Galaxy during TRoS, so I don’t see much point in trying to make sense of something that didn’t matter to him.

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It’s the equivalent to al-Qaeda attacking the World Trade Center on 9/11. They’re hiding to avoid another 9/11, even from the FO that isn’t doing well. Remember, al-Qaeda only succeeded because the location of the WTC was public.

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TestingOutTheTest said:

It’s the equivalent to al-Qaeda attacking the World Trade Center on 9/11. They’re hiding to avoid another 9/11, even from the FO that isn’t doing well. Remember, al-Qaeda only succeeded because the location of the WTC was public.

I’m a little confused by what you’re trying to say. The U.S. government didn’t go into hiding in the wilderness after 9/11, nor did al-Qaeda sweep into America with huge armies and conquer the country. And besides, the Republic and the Resistance are different factions. These situations aren’t equivalent at all.

Also, essentially every building’s location is public. That’s a weird comparison. America isn’t hiding its building locations for fear of attack.

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TestingOutTheTest said:

The ST is about stopping their respective returns.

In the end, what that turned out to mean was “Kill Palpatine again because we didn’t do it last time.” That’s a little less compelling than the way you describe it.

Death of the Author

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SparkySywer said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

The ST is about stopping their respective returns.

In the end, what that turned out to mean was “Kill Palpatine again because we didn’t do it last time.”

It’s still different from the OT. The “similarities” between ANH and TFA are also different. I’d rather take a natural progression of the story than just making the ST about some random shit with Snoke and Kylo Ren or Thrawn or Maul or the Yuuzhan Vong or whatever.

That’s a little less compelling than the way you describe it.

Ah, yes, making sure that the personification of the metaphor for the current generation being affected by and facing the same struggles and battles as the previous one is gone once and for all is not compelling. Ah, yes, the new generation facing the same threats as before and defeating them in their own way or with the right lessons learned or whatever shit happens is not compelling.

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TestingOutTheTest said:

SparkySywer said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

The ST is about stopping their respective returns.

In the end, what that turned out to mean was “Kill Palpatine again because we didn’t do it last time.”

It’s still different from the OT. The “similarities” between ANH and TFA are also different. I’d rather take a natural progression of the story than just making the ST about some random shit with Snoke and Kylo Ren or Thrawn or Maul or the Yuuzhan Vong or whatever.

Thrawn as the villain would have made perfect sense as a natural progression for the post-RotJ era. Having a new Imperial leader emerge in the power vacuum, one who isn’t a Sith, who takes control of the shattered Empire makes perfect sense and wouldn’t undermine the OT.

Palpatine being secretly alive for the whole 30 year gap and having his pickled Snokes in jars is out of left field and is not a natural progression. It renders the OT irrelevant, and makes the Skywalkers irrelevant in their own saga. The fact that Palpatine canonically saw Vader’s betrayal coming and was prepared for it is ridiculous on its own.

Also, let’s not kid ourselves here. TFA is extremely derivative to the point of near plagiarism. The script was rushed out very quickly with the “soft reboot” approach in mind.

That’s a little less compelling than the way you describe it.

Ah, yes, making sure that the personification of the metaphor for the current generation being affected by and facing the same struggles and battles as the previous one is gone once and for all is not compelling. Ah, yes, the new generation facing the same threats as before and defeating them in their own way or with the right lessons learned or whatever shit happens is not compelling.

Except what reason do we have to believe that Palpatine is gone for good this time? At least Dark Empire, for all its issues, bothered to explain how the heroes were able to prevent Palpatine’s return in future stories, ensuring that he could never come back to life. After TRoS, though, what is there to stop Palpatine from just possessing a new body somewhere else? Is he going to be like Sigma from Mega Man X and just keep coming back over and over again until it becomes comical?

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Servii said:

Except what reason do we have to believe that Palpatine is gone for good this time? At least Dark Empire, for all its issues, bothered to explain how the heroes were able to prevent Palpatine’s return in future stories, ensuring that he could never come back to life. After TRoS, though, what is there to stop Palpatine from just possessing a new body somewhere else? Is he going to be like Sigma from Mega Man X and just keep coming back over and over again until it becomes comical?

Worth noting that the canon novelization for TRoS does say there’s really no way of being sure Palpatine isn’t just gonna come back again.

Death of the Author