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I abhor the "X undoes Y's accomplishments" criticism so much.

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You see it be used against the sequel trilogy, especially The Force Awakens and The Rise of Skywalker. Even Palpatine’s return is criticized for “undoing the Chosen One accomplishment”… especially when these people are well-aware that Anakin only killed Palps specifically to save Luke.

What people don’t understand is that everything is temporary. What people think is that the victory of the OT only matters if it lasts forever.

The victory of the OT allowed for galactic peace for three decades. People were born and lived in peace because of the achievements of the OT. You need to come to terms with the temporarily of reality. Nothing ever lasts forever and thinking anything will… sets you up for sadness and anger.

Thoughts?

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TestingOutTheTest said:

What people don’t understand is that everything is temporary.

Sure, in real life. But if you make classic movies there should be some sort of respect given to them. Same could be said about Terminator franchise. We’re supposed to care about John Connor for basically 5 movies, and now the newest kills him pretty much right after one of the best endings in film (T2).

Movies aren’t temporary, they are forever. (That’s actually something that Schwarzenegger said.) And it is true. Sequels should show some respect but these days they’re all quick cash-grabs that will be forgotton after a couple of years since more cash-grabs are coming in the pipeline. What I hate is that from all the movies you could possible imagine and make, why make something that just poops on classic movies. It just shows that there is no actual interest to make something new and imaginative but just be controlled by money.

And in the time of greatest despair, there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as the Son of the Suns.

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TestingOutTheTest said:

What people don’t understand is that everything is temporary. What people think is that the victory of the OT only matters if it lasts forever.

[snip]

You need to come to terms with the temporarily of reality. Nothing ever lasts forever and thinking anything will… sets you up for sadness and anger.

Sure, in real life. But Star Wars is a fairy tale. A lot of people greatly appreciate the “happily ever after…” ending of the OT. I know I do (and I like TFA!).

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This comes down to how people view Star Wars. A lot of people view Star Wars movies as basically lore-shovels, and if that’s the case, this kind of thing is to be expected. But if you view them as movies, as stories, undoing a significant point in the story undermines the story. Oedipus Rex loses some impact if immediately after, he grows back his eyes. Why Oedipus Rex was the first thing to come to mind? I don’t know.

I’m not bothered much by the neo-Imperials because nobody bought the Empire would just go away, even before the ST, and not bothered much by a New Republic falling because, since the Republic begat the Empire, returning to the Republic means a return to the Empire in some shape or form. Although TRoS doesn’t go with that route, it says the New Republic fell because Palpatine, but that’s neither here nor there.

That’s pretty much it, though. There’s no “People need to understand that things are temporary” about death, so Palpatine isn’t really a fair thing to defend this way.

Death of the Author

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TestingOutTheTest said:

You see it be used against the sequel trilogy, especially The Force Awakens and The Rise of Skywalker. Even Palpatine’s return is criticized for “undoing the Chosen One accomplishment”… especially when these people are well-aware that Anakin only killed Palps specifically to save Luke.

What people don’t understand is that everything is temporary. What people think is that the victory of the OT only matters if it lasts forever.

The victory of the OT allowed for galactic peace for three decades. People were born and lived in peace because of the achievements of the OT. You need to come to terms with the temporarily of reality. Nothing ever lasts forever and thinking anything will… sets you up for sadness and anger.

Thoughts?

That may be how real life works, but Star Wars isn’t real life. It’s a fantasy setting. And Anakin killing the Emperor was meant by Lucas (at least retroactively) to be an act of cosmic significance. It was the destruction of the Sith and the restoration of balance to the Force.

Also, it wasn’t exactly 30 years of peace when the New Republic was embarrassingly corrupt and incompetent, and the new Jedi Order failed to get off the ground, and the main heroes of the OT all ended up failing at life and becoming estranged from on another.

That real-world cynicism has no place in Star Wars.

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Servii said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

You see it be used against the sequel trilogy, especially The Force Awakens and The Rise of Skywalker. Even Palpatine’s return is criticized for “undoing the Chosen One accomplishment”… especially when these people are well-aware that Anakin only killed Palps specifically to save Luke.

What people don’t understand is that everything is temporary. What people think is that the victory of the OT only matters if it lasts forever.

The victory of the OT allowed for galactic peace for three decades. People were born and lived in peace because of the achievements of the OT. You need to come to terms with the temporarily of reality. Nothing ever lasts forever and thinking anything will… sets you up for sadness and anger.

Thoughts?

That may be how real life works, but Star Wars isn’t real life. It’s a fantasy setting. And Anakin killing the Emperor was meant by Lucas (at least retroactively) to be an act of cosmic significance. It was the destruction of the Sith and the restoration of balance to the Force.

Also, it wasn’t exactly 30 years of peace when the New Republic was embarrassingly corrupt and incompetent, and the new Jedi Order failed to get off the ground, and the main heroes of the OT all ended up failing at life and becoming estranged from on another.

That real-world cynicism has no place in Star Wars.

True, which is why the PT is an example of a perfect democracy where a suitable leader was elected and didn’t plunge the galaxy into a decades long civil war where every system was under the direct control of the leaders personal army and the main bad guy was a failed main character who killed both of the other two main characters.

Thank the maker that SW has never used real life cynicism prior to TFA.

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TRoS absolutely undeniably undoes the Chosen One prophecy, it was one thing when there were dark side dudes running around after RotJ, another when the Sith never went away and Palpatine didn’t even die.

This is what I think about the Chosen One prophecy though:

Death of the Author

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Artan42 said:

Servii said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

You see it be used against the sequel trilogy, especially The Force Awakens and The Rise of Skywalker. Even Palpatine’s return is criticized for “undoing the Chosen One accomplishment”… especially when these people are well-aware that Anakin only killed Palps specifically to save Luke.

What people don’t understand is that everything is temporary. What people think is that the victory of the OT only matters if it lasts forever.

The victory of the OT allowed for galactic peace for three decades. People were born and lived in peace because of the achievements of the OT. You need to come to terms with the temporarily of reality. Nothing ever lasts forever and thinking anything will… sets you up for sadness and anger.

Thoughts?

That may be how real life works, but Star Wars isn’t real life. It’s a fantasy setting. And Anakin killing the Emperor was meant by Lucas (at least retroactively) to be an act of cosmic significance. It was the destruction of the Sith and the restoration of balance to the Force.

Also, it wasn’t exactly 30 years of peace when the New Republic was embarrassingly corrupt and incompetent, and the new Jedi Order failed to get off the ground, and the main heroes of the OT all ended up failing at life and becoming estranged from on another.

That real-world cynicism has no place in Star Wars.

True, which is why the PT is an example of a perfect democracy where a suitable leader was elected and didn’t plunge the galaxy into a decades long civil war where every system was under the direct control of the leaders personal army and the main bad guy was a failed main character who killed both of the other two main characters.

Thank the maker that SW has never used real life cynicism prior to TFA.

The Old Republic only became corrupt and fell due to decades of Sith subversion. It didn’t fall apart for just mundane reasons like real-world governments often do. And the fall of Anakin is a melodramatic tragedy that, like Luke’s story in the OT, is based in mythical archetypes. That’s not George Lucas just going “Well, real life sucks, so I’ll make my world suck too, lol.” It’s meant to be loftier than that. The Prequels tell a tragic story, but that tragedy is deliberately softened because we know the OT exists and that the good guys will win in the end. You can have low points in a story, but that doesn’t equate to cynicism.

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Servii said:

Artan42 said:

Servii said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

You see it be used against the sequel trilogy, especially The Force Awakens and The Rise of Skywalker. Even Palpatine’s return is criticized for “undoing the Chosen One accomplishment”… especially when these people are well-aware that Anakin only killed Palps specifically to save Luke.

What people don’t understand is that everything is temporary. What people think is that the victory of the OT only matters if it lasts forever.

The victory of the OT allowed for galactic peace for three decades. People were born and lived in peace because of the achievements of the OT. You need to come to terms with the temporarily of reality. Nothing ever lasts forever and thinking anything will… sets you up for sadness and anger.

Thoughts?

That may be how real life works, but Star Wars isn’t real life. It’s a fantasy setting. And Anakin killing the Emperor was meant by Lucas (at least retroactively) to be an act of cosmic significance. It was the destruction of the Sith and the restoration of balance to the Force.

Also, it wasn’t exactly 30 years of peace when the New Republic was embarrassingly corrupt and incompetent, and the new Jedi Order failed to get off the ground, and the main heroes of the OT all ended up failing at life and becoming estranged from on another.

That real-world cynicism has no place in Star Wars.

True, which is why the PT is an example of a perfect democracy where a suitable leader was elected and didn’t plunge the galaxy into a decades long civil war where every system was under the direct control of the leaders personal army and the main bad guy was a failed main character who killed both of the other two main characters.

Thank the maker that SW has never used real life cynicism prior to TFA.

The Old Republic only became corrupt and fell due to decades of Sith subversion. It didn’t fall apart for just mundane reasons like real-world governments often do. And the fall of Anakin is a melodramatic tragedy that, like Luke’s story in the OT, is based in mythical archetypes. That’s not George Lucas just going “Well, real life sucks, so I’ll make my world suck too, lol.” It’s meant to be loftier than that. The Prequels tell a tragic story, but that tragedy is deliberately softened because we know the OT exists and that the good guys will win in the end. You can have low points in a story, but that doesn’t equate to cynicism.

At no point in the PT or TCW is any indication given that Palps alone is responsible for the fall of the Republic. The Republic falls due to it being crippled by corruption and decay, exactly the reason real life governments fall, this has been well explained by Lucas along with all the other tropes based on real life in the OT and PT.

There is no difference whatsoever between Anakin’s fall and Luke’s withdrawal in the ST so if you are trying to claim there’s some magical difference between mythical cynicism and realistic cynicism then all your points against the ST are also invalidated as they’re identically mythical.

The PT is no more or less made less cynical by the existence of the death of Palps in the OT than the cynicism of the ST is made less or more cynical by the death of Palps in TRoS.

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Servii said:

Artan42 said:

Servii said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

You see it be used against the sequel trilogy, especially The Force Awakens and The Rise of Skywalker. Even Palpatine’s return is criticized for “undoing the Chosen One accomplishment”… especially when these people are well-aware that Anakin only killed Palps specifically to save Luke.

What people don’t understand is that everything is temporary. What people think is that the victory of the OT only matters if it lasts forever.

The victory of the OT allowed for galactic peace for three decades. People were born and lived in peace because of the achievements of the OT. You need to come to terms with the temporarily of reality. Nothing ever lasts forever and thinking anything will… sets you up for sadness and anger.

Thoughts?

That may be how real life works, but Star Wars isn’t real life. It’s a fantasy setting. And Anakin killing the Emperor was meant by Lucas (at least retroactively) to be an act of cosmic significance. It was the destruction of the Sith and the restoration of balance to the Force.

Also, it wasn’t exactly 30 years of peace when the New Republic was embarrassingly corrupt and incompetent, and the new Jedi Order failed to get off the ground, and the main heroes of the OT all ended up failing at life and becoming estranged from on another.

That real-world cynicism has no place in Star Wars.

True, which is why the PT is an example of a perfect democracy where a suitable leader was elected and didn’t plunge the galaxy into a decades long civil war where every system was under the direct control of the leaders personal army and the main bad guy was a failed main character who killed both of the other two main characters.

Thank the maker that SW has never used real life cynicism prior to TFA.

The Old Republic only became corrupt and fell due to decades of Sith subversion. It didn’t fall apart for just mundane reasons like real-world governments often do. And the fall of Anakin is a melodramatic tragedy that, like Luke’s story in the OT, is based in mythical archetypes. That’s not George Lucas just going “Well, real life sucks, so I’ll make my world suck too, lol.” It’s meant to be loftier than that. The Prequels tell a tragic story, but that tragedy is deliberately softened because we know the OT exists and that the good guys will win in the end. You can have low points in a story, but that doesn’t equate to cynicism.

The Republic was failing, though. Palpatine was smart enough to seize its pre-existing weakness to serve his own purposes.

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Luke, Han and Leia didn’t fail as long as Poe, Rey and Finn and their friends continue to value their sacrifice and fight for what they fought for. Like Han told Ben Leia’s beliefs still were worth fighting for even in her death.

Like the Skywalker line ended but it really didn’t since Rey has adopted the name, and she also took the mantle from Luke of restoring the Jedi order. So Luke didn’t die for nothing. She is the daughter Luke never had. His life had purpose he inspired another generation of heroes.

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JadedSkywalker said:

Luke, Han and Leia didn’t fail

Yes, they did.

She is the daughter Luke never had.

No, she’s not. TRoS tries to pretend like Luke and Rey had a positive, familial relationship, but they didn’t. Not at all.

As for the fall of the Republic, Palpatine had been working behind the scenes for decades to allow corruption to seep into the Republic. For the most part, that decay didn’t just happen on its own. It was largely initiated by Palpatine and other hidden malefactors. We were shown a galaxy in TPM where the well-intentioned but flawed good guys were in charge and struggling to keep under control an increasingly volatile galaxy. We see the steps of the Republic’s fall into authoritarianism. It’s not perfectly told, but the transition is more or less earned. We witness the tragedy as it takes place.

In the sequel trilogy, most of the tragedy takes place either off-screen or in throwaway sequences. There is no sense of a logical progression from the end of RotJ to the beginning of the TFA. The titular “return of the Jedi” failed to take place, and we had essentially another Jedi Purge occur off-screen. The Empire, instead of being at all diminished, is now comically overpowered. The New Republic is tossed away never to be seen again, partly for shock value, partly because JJ Abrams no doubt thought that having an established Republic be the galaxy’s status quo would be too “Prequelish.” So he threw that out and the New Jedi Order with no buildup or groundwork whatsoever. Thus turning Star Wars from a story of hope after tragedy into a depressing cycle where the failures of the past are forever doomed to repeat “just because”, and forcing the OT heroes to witness everything they worked for crumble within their lifetimes.

Han abandons Leia after the betrayal of their son, and regresses back to being a smuggler under the nose of the regime he helped found. Luke abandons his friends and family and leaves the galaxy to rot at the hands of the Dark Side because he somehow blames the Jedi for his own personal failings. Leia is forced out of the government she had devoted her life to restoring, with her family abandoning her and her son fighting for the Empire. Meanwhile, she finds herself exactly where she started, as a leader of a small guerrilla rebel force, her life having completely stagnated and the struggle to which she had devoted herself being made 30 years longer and mostly fruitless all for the sake of doing a soft reboot in the seventh chapter of a story.

That’s awful. What’s enjoyable about that?

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Servii said:

JadedSkywalker said:

Luke, Han and Leia didn’t fail

Yes, they did.

She is the daughter Luke never had.

No, she’s not. TRoS tries to pretend like Luke and Rey had a positive, familial relationship, but they didn’t. Not at all.

As for the fall of the Republic, Palpatine had been working behind the scenes for decades to allow corruption to seep into the Republic. For the most part, that decay didn’t just happen on its own. It was largely initiated by Palpatine and other hidden malefactors. We were shown a galaxy in TPM where the well-intentioned but flawed good guys were in charge and struggling to keep under control an increasingly volatile galaxy. We see the steps of the Republic’s fall into authoritarianism. It’s not perfectly told, but the transition is more or less earned. We witness the tragedy as it takes place.

In the sequel trilogy, most of the tragedy takes place either off-screen or in throwaway sequences. There is no sense of a logical progression from the end of RotJ to the beginning of the TFA. The titular “return of the Jedi” failed to take place, and we had essentially another Jedi Purge occur off-screen. The Empire, instead of being at all diminished, is now comically overpowered. The New Republic is tossed away never to be seen again, partly for shock value, partly because JJ Abrams no doubt thought that having an established Republic be the galaxy’s status quo would be too “Prequelish.” So he threw that out and the New Jedi Order with no buildup or groundwork whatsoever. Thus turning Star Wars from a story of hope after tragedy into a depressing cycle where the failures of the past are forever doomed to repeat “just because”, and forcing the OT heroes to witness everything they worked for crumble within their lifetimes.

Han abandons Leia after the betrayal of their son, and regresses back to being a smuggler under the nose of the regime he helped found. Luke abandons his friends and family and leaves the galaxy to rot at the hands of the Dark Side because he somehow blames the Jedi for his own personal failings. Leia is forced out of the government she had devoted her life to restoring, with her family abandoning her and her son fighting for the Empire. Meanwhile, she finds herself exactly where she started, as a leader of a small guerrilla rebel force, her life having completely stagnated and the struggle to which she had devoted herself being made 30 years longer and mostly fruitless all for the sake of doing a soft reboot in the seventh chapter of a story.

That’s awful. What’s enjoyable about that?

Nailed it! Everything I’ve been trying to say is right here.

I’d argue though that we see the seeds of an increasingly volatile galaxy throughout The Phantom Menace. You see it through the actions of characters such as Nute Gunray and Watto. Nute Gunray acting through fear and Watto acting out of greed. Even Sebulba I think shows pride with his desire to cheat in the podrace. It’s the little seeded nuances that I think make up the collective whole of what society was becoming. Every little action has a cause and effect. You see it throughout the story too. Qui-Gon helps Jar Jar and Jar Jar in turn helps Padme and thus brings the Naboo and Gungans together. Anakin helps too for that matter. It’s a movie about people helping people with the final example being Obi-Wan beginning to train Anakin. The crux of the whole saga.

I’d even say Attack of the Clones has some great subtly too. Especially when it comes to Coruscant becoming more commercial and Padme being relieved they didn’t try amending the constitution to allow her to continue serving as queen. This is contrasted by Palpatine staying in office long after his term has expired.

Unrelated a tad but I also like how Dooku is referred to as a “political idealist” while the Clone War later is referred to as an “idealistic crusade”.

The Prequels have lots of subtle layers that are very easy to miss but they’re there. They really expand the scope and scale of the plot. In my opinion they’re executed much better than they’re given credit for.

I do think too that a very important aspect to Star Wars is not repeating the sins of past generations. Luke not making the same mistakes as Anakin is the most obvious. However there’s little things like the Rebel Alliance and Separatist being very similar to each other but under different circumstances and ideals. The problem the Sequel Trilogy falls into is what you highlighted though, we’ve seen these things before exactly as they were. Every generation goes through the same problems more or less but the moments do differ in some way. Just like in real life.

Luke could fail to restore the Jedi Order at first but we need to see it happen and then for him to properly rebuild it throughout the trilogy to fulfill what he was set up to do.

Leia shouldn’t have to be a rag tag Rebel leader again but a senator like her mother before her that rises to the occasion and becomes Supreme Chancellor.

Han doesn’t have to go back to smuggling again after overcoming that part of his life but he could be a respected general in the New Republic.

None of these things have to undermine a new generation of characters. They can easily happen interchangeably and it leads all the way back to The Phantom Menace being a story about people helping people. Star Wars was always about the collective whole and not just one individual. Anakin may have been the Chosen One but he would never have fulfilled Balance or found the courage to break free from Palpatine’s clutches if it weren’t for Luke.

"Pleasure’s fun. It’s great, but you can’t keep it going forever; just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone, and maybe then again, it will come back, and you’ll get to do it again. Joy lasts forever. Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure: it’s about you. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion, that is created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving yourself to somebody else, or something else. And it’s a kind of thing that is, in its subtlety and lowness, much more powerful than pleasure. You get hung up on pleasure; you’re doomed. If you pursue joy; you will find everlasting happiness.” - George Lucas

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The ST’s nostalgia is also a natural progression of the story. The PT is about the Empire and Palpatine’s rise. The OT is about their respective falls. The ST is about stopping their respective returns.

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NeverarGreat said:

The difference is that those aren’t soft reboots that force the world and story to retread the same tired ground for the sake of nostalgia, and in fact those examples derive much of their impact from the accomplishments of the prior movies.

They’re also true serials with actual continuity.

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TestingOutTheTest said:

The ST is about stopping their respective returns.

Except they didn’t stop them. Canonically, Palpatine inhabited his new body on Exegol almost immediately after his death in RotJ. Palpatine was still alive for that entire 30-year gap, and in those 30 years, he successfully managed to cause the destruction of the Republic and the Jedi Order again, and turn a Skywalker to the Dark Side again.

There was no preventing involved. Palpatine was still actively shaping galactic events for all that time post-RotJ. RotJ’s victory was made completely hollow and illusory. Even the title “Return of the Jedi” doesn’t make sense anymore. The Jedi failed to return.

If the Sequel Trilogy had involved some Dark Side plot to resurrect Palpatine by pulling his spirit back from the netherworld of the Force, and our heroes had to prevent this and make sure Palpatine stayed dead, then that would count as stopping his return. But that’s not what happened. RotJ was just a tiny setback to Palpatine.

And of course, they didn’t prevent the Empire’s return, either. The Empire was back to full power, so there was nothing left to prevent.

I would have been fully aboard with the more optimistic ST that you’re describing. One where the heroes fight to protect and maintain the peace they had built as they’re confronted with resurgent threats. We could have seen how Luke’s Jedi Order and the New Republic are put to the test against many of the same problems faced by the Old Republic and Jedi, all while struggling to prevent a lapse back into authoritarianism. We could have seen the Skywalker family struggling to stay together amidst these events, and seen Luke and Leia working to keep the new generation from repeating the mistakes of the past and falling to the Dark Side. That’s a Sequel Trilogy I would have liked to see. Instead, all of that interesting story basically happened offscreen before TFA, with the heroes having failed at everything they set out to do.

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Mocata said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

actual continuity

Imagine acting like the ST has so little continuity

Correct.

Well to be fair Episodes 7 and 8 have pretty good continuity between themselves. It’s just the other two connection points that feel like a drunk man falling down seven flights of stairs and breaking his neck.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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Servii said:

TestingOutTheTest said:

The ST is about stopping their respective returns.

Except they didn’t stop them. Canonically, Palpatine inhabited his new body on Exegol almost immediately after his death in RotJ. Palpatine was still alive for that entire 30-year gap, and in those 30 years, he successfully managed to cause the destruction of the Republic and the Jedi Order again, and turn a Skywalker to the Dark Side again.

There was no preventing involved. Palpatine was still actively shaping galactic events for all that time post-RotJ. RotJ’s victory was made completely hollow and illusory. Even the title “Return of the Jedi” doesn’t make sense anymore. The Jedi failed to return.

If the Sequel Trilogy had involved some Dark Side plot to resurrect Palpatine by pulling his spirit back from the netherworld of the Force, and our heroes had to prevent this and make sure Palpatine stayed dead, then that would count as stopping his return. But that’s not what happened. RotJ was just a tiny setback to Palpatine.

And of course, they didn’t prevent the Empire’s return, either. The Empire was back to full power, so there was nothing left to prevent.

I would have been fully aboard with the more optimistic ST that you’re describing. One where the heroes fight to protect and maintain the peace they had built as they’re confronted with resurgent threats. We could have seen how Luke’s Jedi Order and the New Republic are put to the test against many of the same problems faced by the Old Republic and Jedi, all while struggling to prevent a lapse back into authoritarianism. We could have seen the Skywalker family struggling to stay together amidst these events, and seen Luke and Leia working to keep the new generation from repeating the mistakes of the past and falling to the Dark Side. That’s a Sequel Trilogy I would have liked to see. Instead, all of that interesting story basically happened offscreen before TFA, with the heroes having failed at everything they set out to do.

What I mean is that they didn’t fully take over the galaxy. They stopped the Empire and Palpatine before they even got to complete their takeover. And no, the First Order doesn’t rule the galaxy in TLJ, if you’re thinking of “The First Order reigns”. The crawl mentions Snoke is sending his legions to seize military control of the galaxy, and Rey herself admits that their takeover is only complete within weeks, implying it isn’t finished.

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TestingOutTheTest said:

What I mean is that they didn’t fully take over the galaxy. They stopped the Empire and Palpatine before they even got to complete their takeover. And no, the First Order doesn’t rule the galaxy in TLJ, if you’re thinking of “The First Order reigns”. The crawl mentions Snoke is sending his legions to seize military control of the galaxy, and Rey herself admits that their takeover is only complete within weeks, implying it isn’t finished.

By saying that, Rey also implies that the First Order’s takeover is inevitable and just a matter of time. That without additional help for the Resistance, the First Order has already basically won and just needs to carry out the formality of assuming total control. And for all intents and purposes, by the start of TLJ, the First Order is the ruling status quo of the Galaxy, with everyone besides the Resistance seemingly accepting of that.

And even disregarding the First Order, there’s also the fact that Luke’s New Jedi Order failed to produce a single new Jedi, let alone a new generation, and that the Republic was essentially a failed state that was incapable of fulfilling even basic defensive functions for itself or its member worlds.