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I THINK I FIGURED IT OUT - WHY SO MANY SW FANS DISLIKED THE PT... — Page 2
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For me one of the problems with the PT has been the abuse of CGI, it occupies & consumes EVERY scene of the movie. Now some of it works reasonably well (Coruscant city scenes), some of it works REALLY badly (early JarJar in TPM, C3PO in the factory scene in AOTC) but for me the pet hate is how cartoony everything is. If you watch the battle of Naboo at the end of TPM its like watching a poor Disney movie, characters falling over, accidently blowing things up (ok so plot is integral to this argument too
) I was just appalled watching it (as a then 25 year old) BUT I saw Star Wars upon its original release in 1977...........if i could transport myself as a 3 year old to 1999 & watch TPM would I have enjoyed it? Fuck yeah! I think any kid would want to be either Anakin or Padme & have a good old chuckle at the poor misfortunes of JarJar....but im not 3..i dont want to see Star Wars characters getting farted on or stepping in poo, where the fuck does that fit into Star Wars? Commentators spelling everything out for you just as its about to happen.............lame!So perhaps the problem with the PT is NOT the movies themselves BUT THE FANS? Think about what I said in the last paragraph..if i was 3 years old I WOULD FUCKING LOVE THE PHANTOM MENACE, probably as passionately as I love the OT, but then perhaps not, children today don't seem to have the attention span of the children of yesteryear, but thats totally off the point.
So as a now 30 yr old what do I like about the PT? Well the script sucks ass for the most part BUT the STORY kicks ass! The almost Shakespearian playout of events concerning the downfall of an entire Galaxy is incredible, & for that we must acknowledge George Lucas's skill at writing story. I am so intrigued by how the story plays out I cant stop thinking about where its heading next. Palpatine is slowly becoming my favourite villain in the Star Wars Saga, so cunning, so sly, so ingenious. Obviously we know Palpatine forges the Empire & the Jedi are hunted down & exterminated.....but how??? & why??? Do the Jedi confront Palpatine & Palpatine is forced to remove the threat b yany means necessary or does he use the Jedi's apparant involvement in secretly cloning an Army as evidence that they were preparing a military coup & thus branding them traitors & outlaws...these questions, & more, I hope to have answered in Episode 3, the shitty eye candy & dick jokes the kids can have, the Vader being transformed the gay fan boys can have, I'm just gonna be content with seeing how this EPIC story concludes.
& just to start an arguement I'd even go so far as to say the STORY (not script, dialogue or individual story elements but the WHOLE kaboodle) is far better than the story of the OT!
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Originally posted by: die-jarjar-die
So as a now 30 yr old what do I like about the PT? Well the script sucks ass for the most part BUT the STORY kicks ass! The almost Shakespearian playout of events concerning the downfall of an entire Galaxy is incredible, & for that we must acknowledge George Lucas's skill at writing story. I am so intrigued by how the story plays out I cant stop thinking about where its heading next. Palpatine is slowly becoming my favourite villain in the Star Wars Saga, so cunning, so sly, so ingenious. Obviously we know Palpatine forges the Empire & the Jedi are hunted down & exterminated.....but how??? & why??? Do the Jedi confront Palpatine & Palpatine is forced to remove the threat b yany means necessary or does he use the Jedi's apparant involvement in secretly cloning an Army as evidence that they were preparing a military coup & thus branding them traitors & outlaws...these questions, & more, I hope to have answered in Episode 3, the shitty eye candy & dick jokes the kids can have, the Vader being transformed the gay fan boys can have, I'm just gonna be content with seeing how this EPIC story concludes.
i agree, finally one SWs fn that looks at it in that light.
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For all it's faults, plot holes isn't one of them!!
I disagree. let's get to it shall we:
1.) The trade dispute between Naboo and the federation is never explained. There is no motivation at all. Why does the Federation invade? what is it Naboo imports or exports to make blockading them worthwhile? Naboo is supposed to be a smallish out of the way world, why would the federation blockade it instead of some more high profile world, like say, Alderaan?
2.) The Jedi wear the same robes Obi-Wan did in ANH. Kenobi was in *hiding*. He wore those clothes because everyone on tatooine wore simlar garb. If you're a Jedi in hiding, you don't wear your continue wearing your uniform.
3.) Technology. It's a lot more advanced in the PT than in the OT. I'm sorry, but any argument about the T being in a better time for the galaxy is just bull. You seriously think the Empire would revert back to more primitive technology? There's a difference between ship design becoming more mechanical and utilitarian during the empire years than an actual about face in technology. Hell, if a 9 year old slave can builed a pod racer with a more sophisticated graphical user interface than the x-wing and tie fighters of the OT, then something is seriously wrong.
4.) Protocol droids from 30 years before the OT are identical to the ones in the OT. Sorry, no advance in droid design in 30 years? I call shenanigans. The difference didn't have to be dramatic, but they should at least have made the effort.
5.) Force Powers. The Jedi have the ability to run super fast in the beginning of TPM, yet, when that power would have become usefull at the end of the film, with Kenobi, Qui-Gon, Maul and the shield corridor (and don't even try to explain the logic behind that one) it disappears. Some will argue Obi was tired, I say bull. It's just more dramatic if he doesn't make it through, so we convieniently forget about that power for the time being.
6.) Anakin built C-3PO? booooo. Yet somehow Kenobi, Vader, Owen Lars, and everyone who had ever come into contact with 3P0, and artoo for that matter, forget about them? Bull.
7.) The Hyperdrive is Leaking. What? When in the OT or anywhere else has it ever been suggested that the hyperdrive uses any kind of fuel? The hyperdrive is not an engine, it's an apparatus which punches the ship out of normal space and into hyperspace. There would be nothing for the hyperdrive to leak.
8.) Clone wars? what clone wars? These are clearly seperatist wars, that happen to be fought with clones.
9.) The empire is only 20 years old? Did anyone watching ANH come to the conclusion that the Empire was a mere 20 years old? well, considering the Empire doesn't come into existence until episode 3, and that Luke and leia are born in episode 3, and that in ANH they're both 20, yup, the Empire is only 20 years old.
10.) the general public in the OT don't believe in the Jedi anymore. How effective was the Emperor's smear campaign against them if in a matter of 20 years, everybody has forgotten them? Surely people in their 40's and up remember the Jedi? Surely those races who love a lot longer do to. What gives?
11.) Boss Nass is clearly not a Gungan. He doesn't have eyestalks, or a beak. His ears are similar, but that's difficult to tell since they're so much smaller, and tied back.
12.) How did they escape the blockade? There were dozzens of federation ships, the control ship at least had a compliment of droid fighters, it's likely all the others did too, so why didn't they launch?
13.) Why do they need the queen to sign the treaty? They've just illegally invaded an entire planet and subjagated its people, yet they have moral scruples about forgery? yeah right.
Well, there's a couple for ya.
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1.) The trade dispute between Naboo and the federation is never explained. There is no motivation at all. Why does the Federation invade? what is it Naboo imports or exports to make blockading them worthwhile? Naboo is supposed to be a smallish out of the way world, why would the federation blockade it instead of some more high profile world, like say, Alderaan?
because palpatine told them to, because padme was young and easy to maniputate, and remeber the line in TMP " our situation will create a sympathy vote for us." pali told them to in order to became the grand chansilor.
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2.) The Jedi wear the same robes Obi-Wan did in ANH. Kenobi was in *hiding*. He wore those clothes because everyone on tatooine wore simlar garb. If you're a Jedi in hiding, you don't wear your continue wearing your uniform.
everyone thought he was dead even the ppl on tatoneen so why not, and no one knew that he was a jedi. and his robe were on exactly like the jedi robes in the PT. and i think there are alot of ppl in the galaxy that dress in robes.
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3.) Technology. It's a lot more advanced in the PT than in the OT. I'm sorry, but any argument about the T being in a better time for the galaxy is just bull. You seriously think the Empire would revert back to more primitive technology? There's a difference between ship design becoming more mechanical and utilitarian during the empire years than an actual about face in technology. Hell, if a 9 year old slave can builed a pod racer with a more sophisticated graphical user interface than the x-wing and tie fighters of the OT, then something is seriously wrong.
its not and seriously this arguemnt is starting to f*ckin piss me off. the reason they LOOK more advanced is cus they CGI, but infact if you were to look at it more carefully then you woulds see that it is not more advanced. is there anything like a D star in the PT the transports in AOTC look primitive in a sense, the walkers and ATATs in ESB are more advanced, just cus the ships look better doest meant that they are, maybe you should read some of the SW novels like the thrawn trilogy, SDs are far far far more advance then anything in the PT. the Tie fighters are fast and more numble then the noobien fighters, as are the x-wings, and y-wings.
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4.) Protocol droids from 30 years before the OT are identical to the ones in the OT. Sorry, no advance in droid design in 30 years? I call shenanigans. The difference didn't have to be dramatic, but they should at least have made the effort.
ok telll em why would you fix something that works. the droids were great then so why change what they look like. they do probably have more features 30 years later. the other things that comes to minds is the fact that in a civilization that has last for 4000 years made they have prefect driod design to the point where doing any more may not be productive. fo example i remeber hearing a line once in the PT OT or EU where i guy was talking to a driod and said if driods were smarter then we would all be dead.
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5.) Force Powers. The Jedi have the ability to run super fast in the beginning of TPM, yet, when that power would have become usefull at the end of the film, with Kenobi, Qui-Gon, Maul and the shield corridor (and don't even try to explain the logic behind that one) it disappears. Some will argue Obi was tired, I say bull. It's just more dramatic if he doesn't make it through, so we convieniently forget about that power for the time being.
see up till this point you had good points but say what you justsaid makes it sound as thought you dont want to like the PT in other word you never gave ti a chance, you were look for things that may be mistakes. ever thought that he may be tired, using the force does take alot out of you why do you think that jedi dont just go all out force. throwing things and such,( well masters do but a borderline knight i dont think so).
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6.) Anakin built C-3PO? booooo. Yet somehow Kenobi, Vader, Owen Lars, and everyone who had ever come into contact with 3P0, and artoo for that matter, forget about them? Bull.
ok good point, i and many other have always been suspicious of whether kenobi nows the driods or not. as for owens your right he should remeber but that is a minor fault. vader, again maybe vader did know but when is he actually in contract with the driods fro a long period of time in any of the OT. who else are you refering to how many ppl are in the OT that are major in the PT??
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7.) The Hyperdrive is Leaking. What? When in the OT or anywhere else has it ever been suggested that the hyperdrive uses any kind of fuel? The hyperdrive is not an engine, it's an apparatus which punches the ship out of normal space and into hyperspace. There would be nothing for the hyperdrive to leak.
how do you know are you a SW technician who nows exatly how a hyper drive works. we know that the ships use fuel so why cant it be plossible that the fuel is used fro the HD where does it say that the HD doesnt use fuel.
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8.) Clone wars? what clone wars? These are clearly seperatist wars, that happen to be fought with clones.
well we havent really seen anything from the clone wars yet cus it started at the end of aotc but maybe its called the clone wars cus the clones were the domant weapon in the wars, cus the clone is what won the wars. hmm... its all speculation, but it doesnt matter any more cus it the name of the war is not really a plot hole, a lucas could have called it the war fro the galaxy if he wanted that is what it is about but he doesnt why i dont know only he knows.
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9.) The empire is only 20 years old? Did anyone watching ANH come to the conclusion that the Empire was a mere 20 years old? well, considering the Empire doesn't come into existence until episode 3, and that Luke and leia are born in episode 3, and that in ANH they're both 20, yup, the Empire is only 20 years old.
what makes you believe taht the empire was older, nothing, waht makes you believe that it is young, well the leader has children when he was good, and he turned he became like the second in comand of the empire, mean that he probably had soemthing to do with it at the beginin... you see where i am going with this. and also there is a rebellion meaning that there are still parts of the galaxy that are still at war, and also you hear in ANH that the last of the senate is gone i dont think the senated would hang around for more then 2 decades after the empire had been founded. in it self it is strange in away that pali did kill the senate right away. but maybe he thought that if he did the entire galaxy would be in a upraor, its like puting a lobseter in water and warming of the water, the labster dont realize what has happened until its dead.
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10.) the general public in the OT don't believe in the Jedi anymore. How effective was the Emperor's smear campaign against them if in a matter of 20 years, everybody has forgotten them? Surely people in their 40's and up remember the Jedi? Surely those races who love a lot longer do to. What gives?
who knows maybe the jedi are not as forgotten as we think maybe it was only on off water planets like tatooeen. in ANH takin talks about them as if they were just receently all killed. " the jedi are extinict you my friend are the last of there kind" also every oen knows about how the empire hunted them down. so therefore everyone thinks they are dead. and so dont really pay tht much mind to them.
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because Palpatine told them to, because Padme was young and easy to maniputate, and remeber the line in TPM "our situation will create a sympathy vote for us." Palpi told them to in order to became the Supreme Chancelor.
I'm sorry, but because the bad guy said so is not a good enough reason. The Trade Federation guys need to be getting something more out of it. Now, obviously they know that Sidious has some pull in the Senate, but they certainly don't know that he is Palpatine. So, there has to be some kind of monetary gain they expect to get out of this action. The problem is, nothing of the kind is ever made clear in the film. It's all well and good to say they have their reasons, but this is a movie, and plot points and motivations require some kind of explanation if they are to be accepted. On top of this, there's just no way Palpatine could have predicted the outcome that precisely. "Always in motion is the future". Certainly his motivations are political, but the issue here is not why Palpatine told them to do it, but why they went along with him. It's very doubtfull that he would have shared his plans with them, that would give them ammunition to use against him, Palpatine isn't that stupid, so there has to be something else to motivate their actions. The problem is it's never stated in the film, hence it's a plot hole.
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2.) The Jedi wear the same robes Obi-Wan did in ANH...<snip>
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everyone thought he was dead, even the people on Tatooine, so why not? and no one knew that he was a jedi. and his robe were on exactly like the jedi robes in the PT. and i think there are alot of ppl in the galaxy that dress in robes.
So your arguement is that lots of people where robes? Sorry, again that doesn't really cut it. The truth is that it's an oversight on GL's part. Sure, everyone thinks the jedi have been purged, but look at it this way. Say we one day decide to "purge" police officers. Then, this guy shows up in your city, keeps to himself, he's a hermit, but oddly, he's wearing a cops uniform all the time. Does this not make you suspicious? Granted, that's an extreme case. What I'm getting at is this, clearly, the clothing Kenobi wore on Tatooine was chosen to blend in with the natives. Look at Luke in ROTJ, what he's wearing is far more practical and functional than what Kenobi wore. Why would the Jedi dress in loose fitting, cumbersome, heavy robes? They aren't monks, they're keepers of the peace. They basically officers of the law, yet they dress in a manner that would hinder them in such a pursuit? I don't think so. What has obviously happened is that People just associate what Kenobi wore with Jedi, and so thats what they expect. The average viewer isn't thinking about why Kenobi is dressed the way he is, they just go "jedi=monks robes" and that's it.
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3.) Technology. It's a lot more advanced in the PT than in the OT.<snip>
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its not, and seriously this arguemnt is starting to f*ckin piss me off.
You'll have to come to terms with it, because I'm afraid it is.
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the reason they LOOK more advanced is because they use CGI, but in fact if you were to look at it more carefully, then you woulds see that it is not more advanced.
Really? What do you base this on? Seems to me that every single computer display and read out in the PT is far in advance of the sub 8-bit raster graphics of the OT. Why do the targeting and heads up displays in the naboo fighters make use of such advanced graphical capabilities when the Tie Fighters and X-Wings of the OT era are barely stick figure representations on the screen?
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is there anything like a Death star in the PT
No, but the Death star is not the measure by which we judge technical advancement. Not to mention, the design for the Death Satr exists by Episode II, the only reason it's not around is because the Empire is not around to build it yet. You'll notice that the blueprints for it in Episode II are much more advanced than they appear in Episode IV. The issue here is that no effort was made to match the displays of the PT to the displays of the OT, and as such, the OT displays, which were cutting edge back in the late 70's, look ridiculously dated, especially by comparison to the slick graphics used in the PT. It's a visual inconsistency which makes the PT technology appear more advanced than the OT.
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the transports in AOTC look primitive in a sense,
I wouldn't say they look primitive, just different. In fact, looking at the walkers of the PT, I think they look more advanced than the AT-ATs of the OT. They move faster, they seem more functional, being of a size that can be transoprted by a gunship. There's nothing about the walkers of the PT that says to me "these are certainly older and less sophisticated than the AT-ATs"
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maybe you should read some of the SW novels like the thrawn trilogy, SDs are far far far more advance then anything in the PT. the Tie fighters are fast and more nimble than the Naboo fighters, as are the x-wings, and y-wings.
I've read the Thrawn trilogy many times, I'm rereading it right now in fact. That has nothing to do with this arguement though. you can't rely on the books to prove your point, you can only look to the films. It's the visual evidence that we need to weigh here, not the EU. Has there been anything in the PT which definitively shows that the PT ships and tech are less sophisticated than the OT? the answer is no. In fact, there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. More sophisticated displays, Star Destroyed like ships capable of landing ona planet, faster walkers that can be carried by gunships, battle droids with built in shield generators, the tactical display of the Geonosian war room, Land speeders that are all so far beyond Luke's landspeeder in ANH. All of it points to technology in advance of the OT.
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4.) Protocol droids from 30 years before the OT are identical to the ones in the OT. <snip>
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ok, tell me why would you fix something that works.
Let me answer your question with another. Why do car companies continue to put out new models every year? Why do electronics companies continue to make newer Televisions, microwaves, DVD players, stereos, VCRs, cell phones, etc... Just because the technology works, doesn't mean the manufacturers just stop. The key to competitive business is continual innovation to make your product more desirable than your competitors.
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the droids were great then so why change what they look like.
For the same reason that car companies continue to produce new models and new designs.
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the other things that comes to minds is the fact that, in a civilization that has lasted for 4000 years, they have prefected driod design to the point where doing any more may not be productive.
That seems unlikely considering how poorly droids walk.
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Originally posted by: Pagz
1.) The trade dispute between Naboo and the federation is never explained. There is no motivation at all. Why does the Federation invade? what is it Naboo imports or exports to make blockading them worthwhile? Naboo is supposed to be a smallish out of the way world, why would the federation blockade it instead of some more high profile world, like say, Alderaan?
Ok..................The Trade dispute is due to the HEAVY taxing BY THE REPUBLIC SENATE of space TRADING lanes used largely by THE TRADE FEDERATION. Outraged by having to pay more, on top of already extravagant taxes, the Trade Federation protest by blockading the taxations biggest supporter.....NABOO. Who is principal for getting the tax through the Senate?
Thats right.................. Palpatine.
Who's responsible for ensuring the Trade Federation know who actioned the proposed taxation?
That's right..................Darth Sidious
The Naboo have always been a peaceful race, the Trade Federation cowardly attacking a neutral world, so to speak. Palpatine, in turn, is attempting to win sympathy within the Senate, to discredit Chancellor Valorum for allowing centuries of peace to ruined through greed. He's counting on the Naboo not fighting back, when Amidala does, it sets in motion a turn of events that would change the galaxy forever.
Hmmmm.....perhaps Palpatine was always counting on Amidala fighting back to get what he wanted.....never thought of it like that before.....interesting.....
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3.) Technology. It's a lot more advanced in the PT than in the OT. I'm sorry, but any argument about the PT being in a better time for the galaxy is just bull. You seriously think the Empire would revert back to more primitive technology? There's a difference between ship design becoming more mechanical and utilitarian during the empire years than an actual about face in technology. Hell, if a 9 year old slave can builed a pod racer with a more sophisticated graphical user interface than the x-wing and tie fighters of the OT, then something is seriously wrong.
Ok thats a fair point...it's also one that I've heard since TPM came out & one that I don't really see a problem with. You have to remember that by the time the OT comes along the Rebellion has been a thorn in the side of the Empire for near on 20 years. After 20 years of fighting I'm pretty sure that the technology they're using would not so much take a step back from that used in the PT as be more hashed together. If we look back at our own history during World War 2 although weapons of war advanced (tanks, rockets, nuclear bombs read: At-At's, Star Destroyers, Death Star super laser), the ability to provide the raw materials to build these and other weapons/equipment for the soldiers began to run out, I remember reading that canvas was stretched over tanks where they had not enough steel to fully armour them.
As fo the interfaces being more primitive in the OT.............well sorry to say it but YES IT IS DUE TO PRIMITIVE SFX AT THE TIME OF MAKING THE OT. I'm sure when the 468th release on dvd comes along someone at ILM will have touched them up & they'll be as super duper as they are in the PT. BTw on a personal note i was under the impression that the displays looked very similar to the Ot, but maybe thats just me!
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5.) Force Powers. The Jedi have the ability to run super fast in the beginning of TPM, yet, when that power would have become usefull at the end of the film, with Kenobi, Qui-Gon, Maul and the shield corridor (and don't even try to explain the logic behind that one) it disappears. Some will argue Obi was tired, I say bull. It's just more dramatic if he doesn't make it through, so we convieniently forget about that power for the time being.
Well what is there to say..................................................................tension, drama, will he save his master or be forced to watch his master slain, pushing him to the point where Obi Wan (the virtuous TRUE Jedi) attacks in ANGER.................A DARK SIDE POWER. Pretty much how Luke attacks Vader in Return Of The Jedi, emotions getting in the way, is this the sign of one who is BETTER THAN YODA AT TRAINING JEDI???????? To be honest the only reason that is there is to seperate the 2 Jedi so 1 can be killed whilst the other watchs.....Nuff said!
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8.) Clone wars? what clone wars? These are clearly seperatist wars, that happen to be fought with clones.
Yes it might be the Seperatist Armies versus the Republic Armies BUT IT IS THE FIRST WAR TO HAVE USED CLONES AS SOLDIERS hence CLONE WARS
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ok, tell me why would you fix something that works.
Let me answer your question with another. Why do car companies continue to put out new models every year? Why do electronics companies continue to make newer Televisions, microwaves, DVD players, stereos, VCRs, cell phones, etc... Just because the technology works, doesn't mean the manufacturers just stop. The key to competitive business is continual innovation to make your product more desirable than your competitors.
the droids were great then so why change what they look like.
For the same reason that car companies continue to produce new models and new designs.
ok ok ok ok my last comment cuz im bored & tired now......................DOES STAR WARS EXIST IN A CAPITALIST SOCIETY? DO STAR WARS CHARACTERS SEEM OBSESSED WITH HAVING THE NEWEST T-16 SkyHopper TO BOMB AROUND IN OR DO THEY MERELY SEEM TO HAVE ONE SPACESHIP, ONE BLASTER & ONE SET OF CLOTHES (EXCEPT FOR PADME)?????????????????????????????????????????????? we're talking about science fiction here, not real life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Does it REALLY matter that the droids they use in the PT are the same they use in the OT? Perhaps its just a way for the designers of the PT to draw connections to the OT so WE, the viewers, can also form that connection & we can sit & go "oooooooooo it is Star Wars, mummy, look they've got 3PO & R2"
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Everything has an explanation!
I would add my bit, but I'm a work and can't.....
But I will......
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how many kids do you think truely understand what Lotr is about.
hrm... im not lying when i say this but a monkey could understand LOTR... whats so complicated about the LOTR story?
its the simplicity of the story that captivates people...
they dont use works like Chancellor, Senate, Republic, Emergency Powers... what kinda kids are gonna know what these mean???
unless they watch CNN constantly...
lol
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Ok..................The Trade dispute is due to the HEAVY taxing BY THE REPUBLIC SENATE of space TRADING lanes used largely by THE TRADE FEDERATION. Outraged by having to pay more, on top of already extravagant taxes, the Trade Federation protest by blockading the taxations biggest supporter.....NABOO. Who is principal for getting the tax through the Senate?
Thats right.................. Palpatine.
OKay, where is all this information coming from? because it's certainly not coming from the movie. The opening crawl merely tells us that the taxation of trade routes is in dispute. That's it. If naboo was the primary supporter of the taxation, we need to find out about that, but even so, that does not neccessarily explain the blockade, and certainly not the invasion. Why blockade a small, out of the way planet like Naboo, when they could go after a much higher profile planet, say Alderaan. If they're trying to make a political point, blockading a small, peaceful planet is not the best way to go about it. Unfortunately, this still doesn't explain why the Trade Federation would invade the Naboo. What would there be for them to gain from it? Nothing. What could they lose? Everything. It seems to me that while the blockade possibly has political justifications (although they are never discussed in the film, which is a *big* problem) there is absolutely no reason for the Federation to escalate things by invading Naboo.
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Who's responsible for ensuring the Trade Federation know who actioned the proposed taxation?
That's right..................Darth Sidious
Again, where is this information coming from? I can only assume this might be information imparted in the novelization. I haven't read the novelization since '99 so I don't truly remember. That's beside the point though, we're talking about the movie here, and as far as the movie goes, this is information that is never revealed to the audience. That being the case, this remains a signifigant plot hole in the film. You shouldn't have to read the novelization to fill in the blanks, especially when this is a movie, and not an adaption of a novel.
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3.) Technology. <snip>
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Ok thats a fair point...it's also one that I've heard since TPM came out & one that I don't really see a problem with. You have to remember that by the time the OT comes along the Rebellion has been a thorn in the side of the Empire for near on 20 years. After 20 years of fighting I'm pretty sure that the technology they're using would not so much take a step back from that used in the PT as be more hashed together. If we look back at our own history during World War 2 although weapons of war advanced (tanks, rockets, nuclear bombs read: At-At's, Star Destroyers, Death Star super laser), the ability to provide the raw materials to build these and other weapons/equipment for the soldiers began to run out, I remember reading that canvas was stretched over tanks where they had not enough steel to fully armour them.
The difference here is that the Empire is not confined to a single continents worth of raw materials. The Galactic Empire is pretty big, and it can pull raw materials from anywhere, it can even mine asteroids for raw materials. I suspect that a materials shortage is not to blame here. Perhaps for the rebellion, but not the Empire. And remember, the Rebellion won its *first* major victory when they captured the death star plans. The rebellion isn't what I would consider a full scale war. It's small, and it makes strategic strikes at the empire, but it's certainly not large enough to engage in all out war on the Empire. That being the case, there probably isn't a shortage on materials.
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As fo the interfaces being more primitive in the OT.............well sorry to say it but YES IT IS DUE TO PRIMITIVE SFX AT THE TIME OF MAKING THE OT. I'm sure when the 468th release on dvd comes along someone at ILM will have touched them up & they'll be as super duper as they are in the PT. BTw on a personal note i was under the impression that the displays looked very similar to the Ot, but maybe thats just me!
Absolutely, it is because the effects were primitive in 77. The problem is that no effort was made in the PT to match the displays to the OT. Hence the impression of more advanced technology.
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5.) Force Powers. <snip>
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To be honest the only reason that is there is to seperate the 2 Jedi so 1 can be killed whilst the other watchs.....Nuff said!
Certainly, the problem stems from the way in which these Jedi were seperated. Forgetting the completely nonsensical shield corridor, Obi-Wan, even if he was tired, had plenty of time to rest up waiting outside the shield gate to be able to force run when they opened, but instead, he just runs normally, and gets trapped one shield away from where he needs to be. I have no problem with the seperation, my problem is that they introduced a Jedi power at the beginning of the film, and then chucked it when said power would have been usefull. Had they never introduced the force run, I'd have no problem (except, of course, with the corridor and what the hell the logic is behind its operation)
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the droid issue
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ok ok ok ok my last comment cuz im bored & tired now......................DOES STAR WARS EXIST IN A CAPITALIST SOCIETY? DO STAR WARS CHARACTERS SEEM OBSESSED WITH HAVING THE NEWEST T-16 SkyHopper TO BOMB AROUND IN OR DO THEY MERELY SEEM TO HAVE ONE SPACESHIP, ONE BLASTER & ONE SET OF CLOTHES (EXCEPT FOR PADME)?????????????????????????????????????????????? we're talking about science fiction here, not real life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Actually, there are plenty of examples in the films to indicate that it's a capitalist society. Luke selling his speeder, complaining that since the new model came out no one wants the one he just sold. Uncle Owen buying used droids from the Jawas,. The very existence of smugglers. Cloud City Mining colony. The existence of Gangsters. Wattos junk shop where you can get parts for all manner of ships and vehicles. The stormtroopers on the deathstar chatting idly about the new land speeder that's just come out as ben Kenobi deactivates the tractor beam.
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Does it REALLY matter that the droids they use in the PT are the same they use in the OT?
Nope, it doesn't. However, that doesn't mean it's not a plot hole. It's an inconsequential detail, but it's still a plot hole, regardless of its overall importance.
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OKay, where is all this information coming from? because it's certainly not coming from the movie. The opening crawl merely tells us that the taxation of trade routes is in dispute. That's it. If naboo was the primary supporter of the taxation, we need to find out about that, but even so, that does not neccessarily explain the blockade, and certainly not the invasion. Why blockade a small, out of the way planet like Naboo, when they could go after a much higher profile planet, say Alderaan. If they're trying to make a political point, blockading a small, peaceful planet is not the best way to go about it. Unfortunately, this still doesn't explain why the Trade Federation would invade the Naboo. What would there be for them to gain from it? Nothing. What could they lose? Everything. It seems to me that while the blockade possibly has political justifications (although they are never discussed in the film, which is a *big* problem) there is absolutely no reason for the Federation to escalate things by invading Naboo.
Read the novelisation, the preceeding novel (which is GL sanctioned as being a nice lead in to the phantom menace) & the Star Wars Essential Chronology (revised edition).
I would love to spend time going through your post again & commenting & replying but Im shattered after a hard days sitting on my ass going through your last post
I'm sure I'll get around to it another time & as much as I'm explaining where this additional info comes from you have to also consider this fact:
I love the fact that there are obvious emissions in the story telling & they pay a guy at Lucasfilm (Steve Sansweet) to make all this shit filler up! Man that guy has THE BEST job in the world!!!!
I want his job! Just sitting around all day chewing gum & trawling through all the BS Ask the Jedi Council questions "How can Yoda fight like a spinning top, yet need a cane to walk with" kinda thing & then just make up what he wants in response, & thats it! Star Wars canon is made!!!
GENIUS!!!
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where does it suggest in the Star Wars movies that Alderaan is more important than Naboo?
yes Naboo might be a back water world, geographically (or whatever the space term is) but does that really mean it has no political weight whatsoever? Look at the chief politician FROM NABOO...he becomes the fricking Emperor, not bad for a back water world with absolutely sod all going for it!
One thing that I had forgotten to include that I had to check up on was the fact that not only do the Naboo back this increase in taxation of trade routes BUT.....the main route used by the Trade Federation is located by Naboo, hence the Trade Federations presence there....rather than Alderaan!
Holy shit.....I should have that Sansweet dudes job!
ps....I do understand the point you're trying to make, the movie DOES NOT make this clear at all, & in some ways makes the Naboo the bad guys! Food for thought
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The reason I bring up Alderaan is because, according to the Radio Drama for ANH, it is one of the key systems making up the Empire. That, along with its destruction (because dantooine was too remote to be an effective demonstration) said to me that Alderaan is both politically and cosmologically (the space equivalent of geographic?) more prominent than Naboo.
What this all really comes down to is that I wish George had spent a lot more time planning his prequels. Sure, he had notes and ideas from way back, but when it comes right down to it, these prequels, story wise, have not been terribly well thought out. Too many inconsistncies with the OT which they have to link up, too many internal problems. I really wish he'd written all the scripts first, and then started film, instead of doing one, filming it, then writing the next. Not to mention, I really wish he'd gone the route he did for the original trilogy, that is, writing the story, but leaving the script to professional, talented screenwriters. George is a good story man, but not a good writer. Why he continues to write them himself is a mystery to me. Oh well.
To me it feels like GL wrote the PT without going back and watching the OT. It feels like he said "I made those movies, I remember them well enough" and just started working on the new stuff. It's the only real explanation I can come up with for the inconsistencies.
As for Steve Sansweets job, yeah, that'd be sweet. Honestly, I think George could find someone better. Nothing against Steve, he's a good guy, but I've seen SW fans online with hugely comprehensive sites tackling the most mundane of minutia in much more logical and believable ways than I've seen come out of lucasfilm.
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well glad you like it here, i haven't been here very long myself, bout a year or so but keep disappearing & only only tending to post when i feel i got something to have a laugh about or feel extremely passionate about, but the chaps & chappettes on this board really do make ya feel welcome & its great fun reading through everyone's very different opinions & idea's not just about Star Wars but about whatever they're in too! & i just cant get enough of reading the arguments that Jimbo ALWAYS seems to be at the centre of!
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Originally posted by: Luke SkywalkerQuote
how many kids do you think truely understand what Lotr is about.
hrm... im not lying when i say this but a monkey could understand LOTR... whats so complicated about the LOTR story?
its the simplicity of the story that captivates people...
they dont use works like Chancellor, Senate, Republic, Emergency Powers... what kinda kids are gonna know what these mean???
unless they watch CNN constantly...
lol
yeah sorry your right bad example. but here is one the terminator story
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OKay, where is all this information coming from? because it's certainly not coming from the movie. The opening crawl merely tells us that the taxation of trade routes is in dispute. That's it. If naboo was the primary supporter of the taxation, we need to find out about that, but even so, that does not neccessarily explain the blockade, and certainly not the invasion. Why blockade a small, out of the way planet like Naboo, when they could go after a much higher profile planet, say Alderaan. If they're trying to make a political point, blockading a small, peaceful planet is not the best way to go about it. Unfortunately, this still doesn't explain why the Trade Federation would invade the Naboo. What would there be for them to gain from it? Nothing. What could they lose? Everything. It seems to me that while the blockade possibly has political justifications (although they are never discussed in the film, which is a *big* problem) there is absolutely no reason for the Federation to escalate things by invading Naboo.
because naboo is palpatines planet and it creates a sympathy vote for him.
another point i am sure that if a chief of state is imprisioned then the senetor could speak on her behalf, in a special circumstances. therefore he could get himself elected, on the otehr hand he could have banked on amidala escaping, cus he new the visory was an idiot.
i apologize in advance to an and all jewish people for my flowing post, it is not my intention to be rasict i am mearly drawing from history.
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Actually, I based that belief on several things. First, the fact that the Jedi had been wiped from the public conciousness. Something like that takes a long time, it's not something that could reasonably be done in a 20 year span. Too many people in the universe to remember how it was before. Too many long lived species like Hutts and Wookies to remember how it was. Second, Obi-Wan was pretty old, seemingly in his late 70's. He talked about being a jedi Knight during the clone wars, which were before the Empire. He also talked about meeting Luke's father, who was a star pilot. This suggested that they were roughly the same age, or he was just a little older. I got the distinct impression that The clone wars happened whiel Kenobi was in his 20's. Based on that, I had the empire's age estimated at roughly 40 or 50 years old, depending. Then of course, there's the Imperial Navy. So many commanders clearly in their late 40's and 50's. One does not get to be an admiral overnight. It seemed to me that a lot of these commanders would have had reasonably long careers in the imperial navy. Not to mention, calling it an Empire when it's 20 years old, sounds awfully presumptuous. It's not a word that generally gets attatched to things that have only been around for a short time. To me the word Empire suggests longevity as well as size.
ok in WW2 if hitlier had succeded( which he came very vyer vyer close to doing) and he purged jews around the world, in a matter of years. in the late sixties how many ppl would really remeber the jew. that is a generation of people later with a fasist government(the empire). there is alot that can be done in 20 years when you have a facist government.
also to the point where the general called the jedis magians. well it this mind seet what around in TMP was well " what you think you are some sort of jedi trying to do mind tricks."
And another thingn reference to the advancement of generals, many of the major genrals are of he empire are already serving in the navy in the PT. i know this reference is from a book but the fact is you can only put so much in a movie. In rogue planet, genral tarkins character is explained a lil and we learn that he is already a genral at the time, it is possible that he defects to the imperial army right away, therefore his career in the navy is mroe the 20 years, and his career in the imperial navy is 20 years, that is a long tiem to serving in the navy thous he is granted a high position.
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The difference here is that the Empire is not confined to a single continents worth of raw materials.
yea but they are not defending and yeping one continat together, the Galaxy is a big place, and this is alot offronts that need to be covered, and as for the rebellion, they are beeing funded and bulding there own stuff the dotn have access to the big technology that the empire has. i should also ad that the NJO takes place 25 years after the OT and the technology is relitively the same. mayeb the SW galaxy has reacched a point of techonologycal advancement where it is very hard to get better.
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Absolutely, it is because the effects were primitive in 77. The problem is that no effort was made in the PT to match the displays to the OT. Hence the impression of more advanced technology.
its not the PTs fault that is looks better then the OT, but oent hat front i say give it time when lucas redoes the OT in the 2007 versions, he will probably make all the ships look just and cool looking as the ones in the PT, that is without changing the designs of them.
ok now there are many other thing points that i wanted to counter but i am like others just too tired at this time to finish this post, so ill leave it as it is and close with this.
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I really wish he'd gone the route he did for the original trilogy, that is, writing the story, but leaving the script to professional, talented screenwriters. George is a good story man, but not a good writer. Why he continues to write them himself is a mystery to me. Oh well.
i do to cus a good screen play script would have made it ez for most people to draw the conclusions that i have drawn about most of the plot holes that you have commented on. your are right it is a bad script in terms of connecting things i agree with you there but it is not a bad story.
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Originally posted by: Pagz
Jimbo does have a talent for being... "popular" doesn't he
personally i love the guy he brings soo much stuf to these forums. i have say there are alot of opinion that he has i i agree with and if i was hte only person agrueing about them i would probably have left the site a long time ago.
P.S. to all you guys that have to read my posts, thanks for putting up with my bad grammer and spelling if only this site was sett up lie word then i could prefect me writing but it is jsut too much work to got back an edite a post that is liek 500 words or longer.
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because naboo is palpatines planet and it creates a sympathy vote for him.
See, that jumps way ahead and assumes all sorts of things. First, that's part of Palpatine's reasoning for having the Federation invade, but he can't share that reasoning with the Federation, because then they have amunition they can use against him. So, we come back to the same problem as before, that being that there is no motivation for the Trade Federation to invade Naboo. There needs to be some manner of strong compulsion for the federation before they would take such a drastic and risky step. 2ndly, once they've invaded, Palpatine keeps pushing for that signed treaty, in which case, there'd be no vote at all. Naboo would simply be under federation control, period. Proving that the signature was obtained under duress would take forever, and the process of finding out such would end up with the Federation losing their franchise, and the Queen restored to power, so again, no vote would be taking place.
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ok, in WW2 if Hitler had succeeded (which he came very very very close to doing) and he purged jews around the world, in a matter of years. in the late sixties how many ppl would really remeber the jew.
I expect a whole hell of a lot. Killing of a race does not erase them from history. Not to mention that in such a regime, those opposed to it tend to have their ways of circulating the POV and chronicling the history being erased. Just as in Russia, people continued to be religious in secret, so to would the truth about what had happened to the Jews have been kept. Not to mention, it's unlikely Hitler would have allowed such a huge feat to go uncelebrated. Of course, the offical slant on it would be much different, but you can bet he'd be proudly pointing to that "acheivement" for decades to come.
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that is a generation of people later with a facist government(the empire). there is alot that can be done in 20 years when you have a facist government.
True enough. However, I never saw any evidence in the Star Wars trilogy, beyond the existence of the Emperor, that society in general was terribly facist in nature. Granted, we don't see a lot of the universe at large in the films, but Tatoiine sure didn't seem to be under the heel of oppression, just impoverished. I got the distinct impression that as long as you kept quiet and didn't rock the boat, you keep carry on much as you had before Imperial rule. Granted, this isn't freedom, but niether is it outright tyranny. The very fact that Luke has heard of the clone wars, and the jedi knights, suggests that this isn't banned or controlled information. Which is part of the reason I therefore assumed the Jedi had to have been purged long ago. Long enough that at least 2 generations had grown up without them, and they were now merely stories. 50 years seemed like a reasonable amount of time. Anyone younger than 50 would have no firsthand knowledge of the Jedi.
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also to the point where the general public called the jedi magicians. well this mind set was around in TMP was well " what you think you are some sort of jedi trying to do mind tricks."
I don't think that line was indicative of public opinion of the Jedi so much as it encapsulated Watto's annoyance and amusement that this stupid offworled was trying to pull a Jedi mindtrick on a toydarian, who are imune to such.
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The difference here is that the Empire is not confined to a single continents worth of raw materials.
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yea but they are not defending and helping one continent together, the Galaxy is a big place, and this is a lot of fronts that need to be covered,
See, that assumes all out, total warfare, which the Rebellion was not. The rebels were far too small a group to have the Empire defending various fronts. In fact, the likelihood is that there were very few fronts that required actual defense. the Rebels were not about to strike at planets or population centers, these are the people they're trying to free from Imperial opression. They'll be after shipyards, millitary bases and the like.
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and as for the rebellion, they aren't being funded and are building there own stuff. they don't have access to the big technology that the empire has.
I don't know that they're building there own stuff. The X-Wing isn't rebellion made after all. And if a 9 year old slave can build a podracer with a signifigantly more advanced graphic display system 32 years before the rebellion or using X-wings, then perhaps there's a problem.
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I should also add that the NJO takes place 25 years after the OT and the technology is relitively the same. mayeb the SW galaxy has reacched a point of techonologycal advancement where it is very hard to get better.
A very good point, I hadn't thought about that before. Technology does seem to have come to a stand still by the NJO era hasn't it. Or perhaps its a function of our main characters generally using the same ships that they're accustomed to. Luke's X-wing is so imprinted on R2 that they work together at droid/counterpart levels, Han isn't about to ditch the Falcon. Other ships kind of flit in and out of the books. The X-Wing still seems to be in wide use, but beyond that, you don't get a lot of description of new ships. Unseen ships occasionally, like the fleet of prince whats his face, the one who wanted to Marry Liea. Or the ithorian botanical arks. But yeah, no major innovations from the novels, interesting.
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Absolutely, it is because the effects were primitive in 77. The problem is that no effort was made in the PT to match the displays to the OT. Hence the impression of more advanced technology.
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its not the PTs fault that is looks better then the OT,
Actually, it is. They could have made a conscious effort when making the films to match up the displays of the PT to those of the OT, but they didn't.
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I really wish he'd gone the route he did for the original trilogy, that is, writing the story, but leaving the script to professional, talented screenwriters. George is a good story man, but not a good writer. Why he continues to write them himself is a mystery to me. Oh well.
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i do to cus a good screen play script would have made it ez for most people to draw the conclusions that i have drawn about most of the plot holes that you have commented on. your are right it is a bad script in terms of connecting things i agree with you there but it is not a bad story.
I agree, it's not a bad story, it's just badly written. I, however, don't think it's a great story either. Had I been the one doing it, I certainly would have gone in a very different direction than what we've seen.
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i can understand the whole discussion about the Rebellion not having any funding and therefore having to make due with what they have...
but since the Empire does have control of most the galaxy.. wouldnt they have a substancial amount of money from their operations... and in that way couldn't they afford more advanced or better looking ships...
im jumping in half way here guys so throw me a bone here..
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i can understand the whole discussion about the Rebellion not having any funding and therefore having to make due with what they have... but since the Empire does have control of most the galaxy.. wouldnt they have a substancial amount of money from their operations... and in that way couldn't they afford more advanced or better looking ships...
I'm not concerned so much with the outward appearance of the ships as I am with their visible interfaces. Clearly the pod racer, the royal cruiser, and the naboo fighters all have much more sophisticated graphical interfaces. The problem with this is that, by comparison, the x-wings and tie fighters, the millenium falcon, and the imperial shuttle of the OT appear to be severely dated. The controls, the displays, all look like much older technology. To be fair, they are much older technology, having been produced in 77-83. However, they could easily have matched that in the PT to make things appear more congruous. As it stands, it's hard to buy the jump from detailed and pretty cg displays in a Naboo fighter to the barely stick figure representations we get in an x-wing, a ship over 30 years newer. Ditto for the tie fighters.
Honestly, I fully expect Lucas to fix those up when he gets to his final editions of the OT, and honestly, those are the kinds of additions that don't bother me in the slightest.
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i think thats what bothers me most about his prequels... is that he says both sets of movies are going to tie into eachother now.... but in order to do that he must tinker with the originals... now why not leave those alone and just fix the prequels ahead of time so there is no need to revisit the OT...
wouldnt it be easier to deal with the problem then and there rather than having to go back to your original films and change this persons face/ voice, add this person into the scene....
even with the case of the starship displays... is it necessary to give them fancy displays that resemble that of a computer game...
why couldnt he just match those of the OT technology... its just one more way that he could make the two trilogies flow.... and it wouldn't be as obvious... it would be a subtle change...
these are the reasons im thinking his movies now are just a template for how far he can take he CG....
what are your thoughts on this?
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as long as he releases the OT he can do whatever he wants with them....
i dont care...
however what im saying is... it would have been easier to make the prequel trilogy tie in with the OT rather than the other way around... dont you think?
i mean now he's going back and replacing things that he could have just done in the PT to begin with...