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Hypothetical: What would you KEEP?

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This is waaay hypothetical, so any of you who hate the scenario I present in the way I present it, please feel free to abstain from participation. I don't hijack your threads.

It's 2020. You are the executive producer at Lucasfilm. Over the years, SW has developed a rabidly loyal following over the years, following the 2012 cleaned-up, color and sound corrected Blu-Ray release of the OUT. The SE and PT fell out of favor with mainstream SW fans, and demand for a PT reboot and a Sequel Trilogy has surged to unprecedented levels.

You convene a meeting with the directors and writers you have hired for these six new pictures. And the chief question you have to consider is this:

For the PT reboot, what characters, scenes, moments, and concepts would you hold on to? And for the Sequel Trilogy, what from the OUT would you hold on to?

Note carefully that I asked, "What would you keep?" and not "What did you hate and look to discard?" Just trying to keep it positive. :D

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Um... Maybe keep Darth Maul.  And keep him around longer.

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Before the PT Universe was wiped from existance, I'd take Qui-Gon and Ewan's Obi-Wan aboard the mothership for safety. Aaaand... everything else would be gone. Even the things I like about the PT aside from the character of Qui-Gon and Ewan's amazing performance, could have been done so much better.

"Fuck you. All the star wars movies were excellent. none of them sucked. Also, revenge of the sith is the best."

- DarthZorgon (YouTube)

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I agree with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan-absolutely perfect. Mace Windu is strong enough to warrant deeper stories. Other than that, nothing from the prequels save for Duel of the Fates.

Sequels to the OT would have to be far along in the EU if the original actors are used. There can be no Heir to the Empire etc. because that passed long ago. With the current shift in moviegoer taste, it might be prevelent to do a film version of the NJO. (Can't believe I said that.)

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For the PT, only things that go back to the backstory Lucas had in 83 are worth keeping. There's no point in trying to keep specific performances from the PT, because we're talking about remaking the PT. The only performances from the PT I consider good enough are Liam Neeson's performance and Portman's TPM performance. But remakes would probably be using different actors, certainly different performances. The PT storyline should be cut back to things that were in Lucas's old notes or are known to have been in the backstory back in 83 or that seem obvious. That way we'd stick as close as possible to the backstory that was behind the OOT. Anakin would be an adult or so when he meets Kenobi and would be in his forties or so when his children are born. Kenobi would be in his fifties at the time. There'd be no Jar Jar or or Grievous, probably no Jango. No Qui Gon or Dooku. The Jedi wouldn't be such wankers. Kenobi would decide out of arrogance that he could train Anakin as well as Yoda and he'd screw up. Anakin's wife wouldn't die until Leia was a few years old. Owen Lars would be Ben's brother (as decided by Lucas during the making of ROTJ).

I don't think a sequel trilogy should be made. If it was, I'm not sure the EU material is good enough to base it on. In a sequel trilogy, under no condition should actors other than the originals be used for the major Star Wars characters.

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I'd keep absolutely nothing, not even the things I like. I'd have the whole thing redone from scratch.

It be hard to make a decent remake of the original trilogy, because they have always been such well known and famous movies, but rather than make another SE of them, I'd say go ahead and make an entirely new saga from the start on. The originals would still be around and entirely untouched, I'd rather have my guys do a remake than glue bits and pieces onto old films to try and make them look new.

 

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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To answer my own question:

- Qui-Gon Jinn. He stood out in TPM.

- Count Dooku (albeit with a different name). He was a stylish villain. But I would eliminate any needless somersaulting.

- Maybe Watto, but since I wouldn't have child Anakin in my PT, I probably wouldn't have any use for him. I think his childish name works well for him.

- Naboo. Beautiful planet. (Again, I need a better name)

- I would keep the EU concept that Dark Side use causes physical deterioration, hence the Emperor's strange look in ROTJ. From movie to movie, Palpatine would look gradually like his ROTJ self, but only about halfway there at the end of the third film.

- Coruscant looked like I think it should have looked, but I would have toned down some of those Kooky Kolors. And if there's a bar scene (as in AOTC), I would turn the lights down. It's too bright in there.

- As I've said many times, the Obi/Anakin duel would take place near an active volcano, not on a volcanic planet. The latter concept is over the top.

Unless I'm forgetting something, this is all I would keep from the PT when making my reboot.

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vote_for_palpatine said:

To answer my own question:

-- As I've said many times, the Obi/Anakin duel would take place near an active volcano, not on a volcanic planet. The latter concept is over the top.

 

 I agree it's over the top.

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More over the top than riding across the lava on droids while dueling above it?

More over the top than " don't Try it anakin i have the high ground" obi to Anakin "  You underestimate my power!!!"  with the retarded backflip and all three limbs cut off in one go, lol.  And Hayden lying on the floor yelling " I HATE YOU!!!!!!"

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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That was some pretty funny stuff. Maybe ROTS would work if you reenvisioned it as a comedy. I can get quite a good laugh out of lines like "You underestimate my POWER!!!" and Hayden's delivery of "I should have KNOWN the Jedi were plotting to take over" and "You will not take her from me!" And that "I hate you!" now cracks me up every time.

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what I would keep:

Qui-Gon

 the nature of the "prequel" Jedi (in that they forbid attatchment), ans there are signs that Qui-gon planned to go against that doctrine (namely because he tried to free Shimi as well).

 that's actually the SOLE plot point from the "prequels" that I like, because it DOES make Luke's Journey in the OT much more meaningful and that journey's end in the Undestroyed Return of the Jedi all the much more uplifting.

also, believe it or not, I would also keep Jake Lloyd, because he actually looked like he could grow into the REAL Anakin Skywalker, Sebastian Shaw.

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vote_for_palpatine said:

For the PT reboot...

...I wanted to completely re-invent PT by writing the story from scratch, oulining the look & feel, taking someone to expand it into a script or a book and another person to illustrate my visions. So maybe even a comic book (err... I mean "graphic novel") ?

But then I realized AGAIN that I can't profit from SW without obtaining license from LFL and that completing such project would be a GREAT amount of work, a bit too much to be done for free...

...especially with a large portion of fans who would bash my vision (mostly diehards "if it has official SW label, I love it" or "I love GL").

 

What could stay? Coruscant, esp. at night (as in ROTJ-SE), as I saw it back in 1994 in "TIE Fighter" and fell in love :)

I saw the original theatrical release of the Old Trilogy on the big screen and I'm proud of it...
How did I accomplish that (considering my age) is my secret...
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I would keep the macro story the prequels story told, as I believe that was the one positive.  I like Palpatines rise to Emperor, as each movie he gains more and more power through the political process, as it sort of mirrored the rise of Hitler in the 1930's.  I know Lucas/Spielberg are big WWII buffs, so I think Lucas took alot of themes of the rise of Dictators during that period.

I always liked the Senate scenes in Episode I, and thought it really gave the OT story a larger scope cause it changed it from this small story about a band of rebels to an epic struggle that trickled down all across the galaxy.

 

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I think a more interesting question would be, "Would you adhere to all the EU continuity established pre-PT?" What upsets me far more than GL's less-than-stellar (though not as execrable as a lot of people here think) trilogy of films is the way he pissed left and right over the hard work of the people who kept Star Wars alive during the inter-trilogy period.

I'm not a fan of retcons, even of stories that themselves retconned other, because I believe that if you're not good enough to work around what your peers have done with a given franchise, you shouldn't be writing for that franchise at all. But if we have to redo the PT, I would wipe out any and all of it and start from scratch, not out of hatred for it, but simply for the sake of originality. However, I would treat as continuity every workable scrap of EU from September 1977 to December 1998, as the first EU story (Marvel's Star Wars #7) was published in the former month and the first PT-related story (Dark Horse's Republic #0) was published in the latter month. This fits nicely, as the last thing published before this was the final issue of my favorite EU comic series, Tales of the Jedi. Special exceptions would be made for series still in production at that point (Crimson Empire II, Star Wars Missions, etc.), but canon as far as the production team was concerned would pretty much end there.

This would also work nicely for the eventual ST, as the galaxy-shattering Yuuzhan Vong War was still several months away at said cut-off point. The death of Chewbacca and the huge ramifications of the post-war environment would be extremely difficult to simply gloss over in the films, assuming we kept with the apparent date of 30+ years ABY for the ST that Bantam was never allowed to go beyond prior to the "6-film vision".

Yes, I realize this post was a total geek-out. What of it?

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No way. The films shouldn't have to kow tow to the EU. The EU is by very nature non-canonical, no matter what certain Lucasfilm employees think, and Lucas is thoroughly justified in ignoring it or going counter to it. The only question is whether he should be allowing his employees to officially call it canon if he's not going to treat it as that in his work. I think he shouldn't. I think it's a con to call the stuff canon when it's clearly not treated as canon. I think it's called canon just to to aid sales and wouldn't be called canon if not for that. The EU needs to be soundly put in its place. They should do the honest and appropriate thing and declare it all non-canon.

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Vaderisnothayden said:

No way. The films shouldn't have to kow tow to the EU. The EU is by very nature non-canonical, no matter what certain Lucasfilm employees think, and Lucas is thoroughly justified in ignoring it or going counter to it. The only question is whether he should be allowing his employees to officially call it canon if he's not going to treat it as that in his work. I think he shouldn't. I think it's a con to call the stuff canon when it's clearly not treated as canon. I think it's called canon just to to aid sales and wouldn't be called canon if not for that. The EU needs to be soundly put in its place. They should do the honest and appropriate thing and declare it all non-canon.

That's not your call to make. Whatever their reasons for saying it's canon, the point is that they say it, and so it is. The company that owns the right to a franchise can define its canon however it wants, so the EU is not "by very nature" non-canonical. If GL disagreed so vehemently with the presence of EU in Star Wars canon, he would fire the entire team of individuals whose sole job is to maintain a massive database on what constitutes canon, and who keep threads in the official message boards open for questions from readers. High-visibility jobs like that wouldn't last long if they were as unnecessary as you think.

I've noticed from your previous posts that you seem to think you have much more authority in these matters than you actually do. First, you insist that the OOT is the canon version simply because you think GL has lost sight of some nebulous concept of what SW "is" (which smacks of the same self-styled elitist definition as the phrase "true fan"), despite having no involvement in the production of the films of even an affiliation with the companies that made them. Now, you use the fact that Lucas Licensing is a business to off-handedly dismiss any official statements on the definition of canon. There's no logical follow-through to these statements at all. Simply put, you know less about what Star Wars "is" than Lucas and company ever will, because they DECIDE what it "is".

OOT purists, if you ever wondered why people have a tendency to look down on you, you need only look at people like Vaderisnothayden.

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I would not change events. The story in the old movies, and in the wealth of PT-era EU material would stand.

There is a wealth of material in the EU which we could draw from, and most of it I consider much much better than the PT movies.

I would instead do my best to show the same events from other perspectives and to show more of other events than those in the old PT movies.

There are many loose ends that could be continued on. I would like to emphasize more the religious and moral aspects. For instance, the controversy and schism within the Jedi order about using living and breathing (although willing) slaves as soldiers in the Clone Wars. I would show more of the Jedi vs. Sith  - back story. More Force mysticism. Show how Qui-Gon's belief in the Force is different from the mainstream, and why he is considered to be somewhat of a maverick. I would show the relationship between Count Dooku and Qui-Gon. etc. I would show Anakin's Jedi Trials and knighting during the Clone Wars.

 

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Johnboy3434 said:
Vaderisnothayden said:

No way. The films shouldn't have to kow tow to the EU. The EU is by very nature non-canonical, no matter what certain Lucasfilm employees think, and Lucas is thoroughly justified in ignoring it or going counter to it. The only question is whether he should be allowing his employees to officially call it canon if he's not going to treat it as that in his work. I think he shouldn't. I think it's a con to call the stuff canon when it's clearly not treated as canon. I think it's called canon just to to aid sales and wouldn't be called canon if not for that. The EU needs to be soundly put in its place. They should do the honest and appropriate thing and declare it all non-canon.

That's not your call to make. Whatever their reasons for saying it's canon, the point is that they say it, and so it is. The company that owns the right to a franchise can define its canon however it wants, so the EU is not "by very nature" non-canonical. If GL disagreed so vehemently with the presence of EU in Star Wars canon, he would fire the entire team of individuals whose sole job is to maintain a massive database on what constitutes canon, and who keep threads in the official message boards open for questions from readers. High-visibility jobs like that wouldn't last long if they were as unnecessary as you think.

I've noticed from your previous posts that you seem to think you have much more authority in these matters than you actually do. First, you insist that the OOT is the canon version simply because you think GL has lost sight of some nebulous concept of what SW "is" (which smacks of the same self-styled elitist definition as the phrase "true fan"), despite having no involvement in the production of the films of even an affiliation with the companies that made them. Now, you use the fact that Lucas Licensing is a business to off-handedly dismiss any official statements on the definition of canon. There's no logical follow-through to these statements at all. Simply put, you know less about what Star Wars "is" than Lucas and company ever will, because they DECIDE what it "is".

OOT purists, if you ever wondered why people have a tendency to look down on you, you need only look at people like Vaderisnothayden.

 

Nope.  Gotta agree with Vaderisnothayden on this one.  Nearly all of us here consider the OOT to be Star Wars canon over the '04 editions, myself included.  That's why most of us are here.

And while I've been a fan of EU and oftentimes consider some parts canonical, and it's obvious that Lucas the company considers it, it's even more obvious that Lucas the man does not.  He's made several statements saying he ignores EU works and has no idea what happens in them.  Even that wouldn't be so damning except for the fact that the prequels outright contradict elements of EU that the company considers to be canon.

Granted, we get our jollies off on holding opposing views from Lucas, but it's extremely funny that the company is pulled in two different directions.  I agree with Vaderisnothayden that the books are given such high status solely to boost sales.  I whole-heartedly believe that.  It's a little bit contradictory for Vaderisnothayden to follow Lucas's opinion on this when he doesn't in any other situation, but I certainly believe the fact that George shits on EU validates Vaderisnothayden's opinion.

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Gaffer Tape said:

Nope.  Gotta agree with Vaderisnothayden on this one.  Nearly all of us here consider the OOT to be Star Wars canon over the '04 editions, myself included.  That's why most of us are here.

And while I've been a fan of EU and oftentimes consider some parts canonical, and it's obvious that Lucas the company considers it, it's even more obvious that Lucas the man does not.  He's made several statements saying he ignores EU works and has no idea what happens in them.  Even that wouldn't be so damning except for the fact that the prequels outright contradict elements of EU that the company considers to be canon.

Granted, we get our jollies off on holding opposing views from Lucas, but it's extremely funny that the company is pulled in two different directions.  I agree with Vaderisnothayden that the books are given such high status solely to boost sales.  I whole-heartedly believe that.  It's a little bit contradictory for Vaderisnothayden to follow Lucas's opinion on this when he doesn't in any other situation, but I certainly believe the fact that George shits on EU validates Vaderisnothayden's opinion.

Minor correction: the prequels contradicted elements from the EU. Because Lucas was the one behind the contradictions, the overall canon scrambled to accommodate his wishes. It now acknowledges and/or reconciles any contradictions he managed to spew out. Really, if it was anyone other than Lucas, this wouldn't have happened. While the PT screwed with the EU in several large ways (mainly the dating of the Clone Wars and the way the Sith Order works), the new Clone Wars series is a continuity clusterfuck of absolutely unprecedented proportions. Seriously, for your own amusement, try looking at a Clone Wars timeline for the pre-series EU and one for the series itself, noting the events that have to happen, and try to reconcile the dates for each as much as possible. GL might have actually come up with a situation that cannot be fixed. It's that bad. Things like this almost never happen when Lucas stays out of it, and never on this scale.

But yes, I understand that Lucasfilm and Lucas himself have differing views on the canon: Lucasfilm's view is structured, extensive database that will hopefully get a public release at some point, and Lucas' view is a shrug and a "whatever". It sucks, I know. Really, though, the only actual use I see in any canon policy is for fan debates and public prjects like the Star Wars Timeline Gold (check it out if you haven't already; the amount of work and dedication is unbelievable). Most people take public projects at face value, but when people start debating about things, then everybody whips out their own personal canons like so many engorged members*. Then, when someone points out the actual, public policy of Lucasfilm, people start whining that Lucas only accepts the movies and the whole discussion goes to Hell rather quickly.

The way I see it, Lucasfilm is a company, and as such is effectively immortal (and considering the franchise it has going for it, only the end of civilization itself could make the "effectively" qualifier come into play). Lucas, however, is a man. An old man. He will die. Very soon, too, if he keeps eating like I think he does. What about the EU works that come out after he dies? Would he have liked one of them so much he would have made it canon? He did that with Aayla Secura, the Outrider, and a bunch of vehicle designs, so it would be intellectually dishonest to simply discount the possibility. But we won't know. We'll never know. Lucasfilm, however, will always be there to issue such rulings. I think that, again, for debating purposes, Lucasfilm's policy is, in the long term, more sound. Just my opinion. My beef isn't with those who think that only the movies are canon instead of including the EU. My beef is with those who pick and choose certain versions of the movies and maybe certain parts of the EU as part of their personal canons and then proclaim it as indisputable truth, like Vaderhasanoverlylongusername has done on more than one occasion and will most likely continue to do. That grinds my gears, and so I post in response. While the last line of my previous post may sound like I feel otherwise, I have nothing against OOT purists. This is about one user, not the whole movement.

*Not that there's anything wrong with personal canons. I have one myself. I just don't flaunt it around as established fact.

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Gaffer Tape said:
Johnboy3434 said:
Vaderisnothayden said:

No way. The films shouldn't have to kow tow to the EU. The EU is by very nature non-canonical, no matter what certain Lucasfilm employees think, and Lucas is thoroughly justified in ignoring it or going counter to it. The only question is whether he should be allowing his employees to officially call it canon if he's not going to treat it as that in his work. I think he shouldn't. I think it's a con to call the stuff canon when it's clearly not treated as canon. I think it's called canon just to to aid sales and wouldn't be called canon if not for that. The EU needs to be soundly put in its place. They should do the honest and appropriate thing and declare it all non-canon.

That's not your call to make. Whatever their reasons for saying it's canon, the point is that they say it, and so it is. The company that owns the right to a franchise can define its canon however it wants, so the EU is not "by very nature" non-canonical. If GL disagreed so vehemently with the presence of EU in Star Wars canon, he would fire the entire team of individuals whose sole job is to maintain a massive database on what constitutes canon, and who keep threads in the official message boards open for questions from readers. High-visibility jobs like that wouldn't last long if they were as unnecessary as you think.

I've noticed from your previous posts that you seem to think you have much more authority in these matters than you actually do. First, you insist that the OOT is the canon version simply because you think GL has lost sight of some nebulous concept of what SW "is" (which smacks of the same self-styled elitist definition as the phrase "true fan"), despite having no involvement in the production of the films of even an affiliation with the companies that made them. Now, you use the fact that Lucas Licensing is a business to off-handedly dismiss any official statements on the definition of canon. There's no logical follow-through to these statements at all. Simply put, you know less about what Star Wars "is" than Lucas and company ever will, because they DECIDE what it "is".

OOT purists, if you ever wondered why people have a tendency to look down on you, you need only look at people like Vaderisnothayden.

 

Nope.  Gotta agree with Vaderisnothayden on this one.  Nearly all of us here consider the OOT to be Star Wars canon over the '04 editions, myself included.  That's why most of us are here.

And while I've been a fan of EU and oftentimes consider some parts canonical, and it's obvious that Lucas the company considers it, it's even more obvious that Lucas the man does not.  He's made several statements saying he ignores EU works and has no idea what happens in them.  Even that wouldn't be so damning except for the fact that the prequels outright contradict elements of EU that the company considers to be canon.

Granted, we get our jollies off on holding opposing views from Lucas, but it's extremely funny that the company is pulled in two different directions.  I agree with Vaderisnothayden that the books are given such high status solely to boost sales.  I whole-heartedly believe that.  It's a little bit contradictory for Vaderisnothayden to follow Lucas's opinion on this when he doesn't in any other situation, but I certainly believe the fact that George shits on EU validates Vaderisnothayden's opinion.

Lucas after 1983 was very clear what was canon and what was not.  He said the movies were gospel and the EU gossip.   Then his whole being separate from EU now is a big joke because he borrowed EU stuff and added it to the special editions and prequels.

Adding things from shadows of the empire to star wars special edition.  Darth Maul's double bladed saber stolen from the comics that had Exar Kun.  Adding coruscant to the special editions and prequels.  Putting Boba Fett in star wars when he was not created til pre production on empire strikes back.

Boba Fett was first indtroduced as an EU character in the holiday special.  But since his band of warriors were created by Joe Johnston during pre production of empire strikes back as a kind of super soldier i'm not sure if he falls under the EU first and then became canon by being in empire strikes back.

There are many different branches of the canon.  The highest is the G canon.  Which is now only episodes 1-6 but once included the novelizations and radio dramas. 

The EU itself has a very elaborate canon structure.  The highest is a sub canon to the films themselves and projects Lucas has either produced or been Involved with.  Including Force Unleashed and the 3D clone wars cartoon.

The other novels and comics and video games follow below these.  And the way EU Canon is structured has changed over time.  For instance once the Marvel comics were thrown out EU canon entirely and now they have brought certain things back in.  Just like the newspaper comics by Russ Cochran were forgotten or dismissed canon and have been brought back into it.

Any of the old novels that contradict the prequels are either just left be, or if old story ideas and narrative threads are reused they have to fit the current prequel era of EU and cannot mess with what Lucas wants.

The prequels as we finally got them are just a mess of epic proportions.  Lucas might say they are canon.  but i disagree.  I think they are more EU than anything and certainly not the best the EU has to offer.  That includes the 1997 and 2004 versions of the films. 

To me the real true canon is.

Star Wars 1977

Empire Strikes Back 1980

Return of the Jedi 1983

And the novelizations from those same years.  Plus the radio dramas for star wars and empire strikes back.

Return of the jedi is not included because it does not feature Mark Hamill and added Mara Jade as Arica.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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Johnboy3434 said:
Vaderisnothayden said:

No way. The films shouldn't have to kow tow to the EU. The EU is by very nature non-canonical, no matter what certain Lucasfilm employees think, and Lucas is thoroughly justified in ignoring it or going counter to it. The only question is whether he should be allowing his employees to officially call it canon if he's not going to treat it as that in his work. I think he shouldn't. I think it's a con to call the stuff canon when it's clearly not treated as canon. I think it's called canon just to to aid sales and wouldn't be called canon if not for that. The EU needs to be soundly put in its place. They should do the honest and appropriate thing and declare it all non-canon.

That's not your call to make. Whatever their reasons for saying it's canon, the point is that they say it, and so it is. The company that owns the right to a franchise can define its canon however it wants, so the EU is not "by very nature" non-canonical. If GL disagreed so vehemently with the presence of EU in Star Wars canon, he would fire the entire team of individuals whose sole job is to maintain a massive database on what constitutes canon, and who keep threads in the official message boards open for questions from readers. High-visibility jobs like that wouldn't last long if they were as unnecessary as you think.

I've noticed from your previous posts that you seem to think you have much more authority in these matters than you actually do. First, you insist that the OOT is the canon version simply because you think GL has lost sight of some nebulous concept of what SW "is" (which smacks of the same self-styled elitist definition as the phrase "true fan"), despite having no involvement in the production of the films of even an affiliation with the companies that made them. Now, you use the fact that Lucas Licensing is a business to off-handedly dismiss any official statements on the definition of canon. There's no logical follow-through to these statements at all. Simply put, you know less about what Star Wars "is" than Lucas and company ever will, because they DECIDE what it "is".

OOT purists, if you ever wondered why people have a tendency to look down on you, you need only look at people like Vaderisnothayden.

Another insulting post from Johnboy. At least you didn't call me "ignorant" this time.

You seem to adhere to the slavish view that canon is just what the company says it is, but that is failing to recognize what the idea of canon is about. It's all about the question of what's the real thing. And the company does not always know best what is the real thing. As such, something is not made canon just because they say it is. If canon were a value that consisted solely of what a company SAID was the real thing, then it would be a worthless value. But canon is about the very real question of what's the real thing, and that exists quite independent of any company's word. As such, there is a canon that exists independent of a company's decisions. And anybody with a brain can take a stab at judging what this real canon is.

GL is not going to fire his EU pseudo-canon employees, because they help to bring him money. But he has made it very clear that he does not consider the EU to be canon. He has talked of it beng a separate universe from his Star Wars and compared the situation to the Star Trek situation, in which there are two universes, the live action and the books etc EU which is not canon. I'm amazed you take Lucas employing these guys as some sort of evidence that he believes in the EU as canon. All it is is evidence of marketing strategy. Indeed, you YOURSELF have previously acknowledged that Lucas does not consider the EU to be canon. You passed off his view then by saying that one day he'll die and then the Lucasfilm EU-is-canon idea will be the one left standing.

GL has certainly lost sight of what Star Wars is. A lot of people will agree with me on that. It's not elitist to say he has, merely accurate. He has clearly lost touch with the original Star Wars. No, Lucas and Lucasfilm do not decide what Star Wars is. The OOT films that made the legend of Star Wars decide that. They're the measure of Star Wars. And Lucas has broken away from those films and their mentality. The "Star Wars" that's being pushed these days, far from deciding what Star Wars is, just isn't really real Star Wars itself at all. And you don't need to be involved in the making of Star Wars to judge this. You don't need to be involved in the making of a piece of art to be able to judge it. All you need is a brain. 

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Gaffer Tape said:
Johnboy3434 said:
Vaderisnothayden said:

No way. The films shouldn't have to kow tow to the EU. The EU is by very nature non-canonical, no matter what certain Lucasfilm employees think, and Lucas is thoroughly justified in ignoring it or going counter to it. The only question is whether he should be allowing his employees to officially call it canon if he's not going to treat it as that in his work. I think he shouldn't. I think it's a con to call the stuff canon when it's clearly not treated as canon. I think it's called canon just to to aid sales and wouldn't be called canon if not for that. The EU needs to be soundly put in its place. They should do the honest and appropriate thing and declare it all non-canon.

That's not your call to make. Whatever their reasons for saying it's canon, the point is that they say it, and so it is. The company that owns the right to a franchise can define its canon however it wants, so the EU is not "by very nature" non-canonical. If GL disagreed so vehemently with the presence of EU in Star Wars canon, he would fire the entire team of individuals whose sole job is to maintain a massive database on what constitutes canon, and who keep threads in the official message boards open for questions from readers. High-visibility jobs like that wouldn't last long if they were as unnecessary as you think.

I've noticed from your previous posts that you seem to think you have much more authority in these matters than you actually do. First, you insist that the OOT is the canon version simply because you think GL has lost sight of some nebulous concept of what SW "is" (which smacks of the same self-styled elitist definition as the phrase "true fan"), despite having no involvement in the production of the films of even an affiliation with the companies that made them. Now, you use the fact that Lucas Licensing is a business to off-handedly dismiss any official statements on the definition of canon. There's no logical follow-through to these statements at all. Simply put, you know less about what Star Wars "is" than Lucas and company ever will, because they DECIDE what it "is".

OOT purists, if you ever wondered why people have a tendency to look down on you, you need only look at people like Vaderisnothayden.

 

Nope.  Gotta agree with Vaderisnothayden on this one.  Nearly all of us here consider the OOT to be Star Wars canon over the '04 editions, myself included.  That's why most of us are here.

And while I've been a fan of EU and oftentimes consider some parts canonical, and it's obvious that Lucas the company considers it, it's even more obvious that Lucas the man does not.  He's made several statements saying he ignores EU works and has no idea what happens in them.  Even that wouldn't be so damning except for the fact that the prequels outright contradict elements of EU that the company considers to be canon.

Granted, we get our jollies off on holding opposing views from Lucas, but it's extremely funny that the company is pulled in two different directions.  I agree with Vaderisnothayden that the books are given such high status solely to boost sales.  I whole-heartedly believe that.  It's a little bit contradictory for Vaderisnothayden to follow Lucas's opinion on this when he doesn't in any other situation, but I certainly believe the fact that George shits on EU validates Vaderisnothayden's opinion.

 

Great post. As for me being contradictory, I'm not really. I don't depend on Lucas's view for my own. My own view of what's canon is based on my own examination of the various works and thinking on the subject. Lucas's view is merely relevant when talking about his work or when talking about what is the view of the recognized (by some) "authority". However that fact that Lucas's view on this agrees with my own on this is not accidental. Works like the expanded universe works are naturally the sort of thing that's non-canonical. It's instinctive and natural to see them as non-canonical.

I agree it's funy to see the company pulled in two different directions. Their own boss undermines their "canon" with his statements. I wonder if it drives them up the wall.

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The Official Lucas Canon has changed however.  It is no longer even static like it was after 1983.

The original threatrical versions and the 1997 versions that became the new canon versions are both now taken out of canonicity and the 2004 versions replace them.

The radio dramas and novelizations have been thrown out as canon because they contradict the prequels.

The funny things about the prequels is Lucas paid zero attention to continuity with the older films therefore he contradicted his earlier self in the making of them.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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skyjedi2005 said:

The radio dramas and novelizations have been thrown out as canon because they contradict the prequels.

Where did you hear this?

 

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Vaderisnothayden said:
skyjedi2005 said:

The radio dramas and novelizations have been thrown out as canon because they contradict the prequels.

Where did you hear this?

 

There is no official source but i think the Canon was  changed and these became EU.  Lucas even had the novelizations rewritten as Juvenile novelizations in 2004 to reflect the changes imposed by the prequels.

Even though Lucas contradicted himself in Attack of the Clones by Making Owen Lars Anakin's step brother when he was supposed to be Obi Wan Kenobi's brother.  As decided by Lucas during story conference on return of the jedi and made its way into the novel.

But this like any of the major retcons introduced during the oot could be excused as he was making it all up as he went. Vader being the father and Leia the sister.  The change in the Emporer from when star wars was written to how the character became later.

In the prequels Padme dies in childbirth from a broken heart. But Leia remembers her Her "real mother" in rotj.

Even the character of Anakin Skywalker as described in the originals is desecrated by Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith.  But its all okay now the changes are excused as that lying Kenobi s.o.b again.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.