How would you restructure Anakin's turn to the dark side in the Prequels?

One of the biggest critiques of the Prequel trilogy, and one that I’ve come to agree with more and more overtime, is that Anakin’s turn to the dark side wasn’t structured the best in the Prequels.

It’s too convoluted. George Lucas insisted on starting Anakin as a child, and it takes until the 3rd movie for him to be a Jedi Knight. Compare this to Luke’s arc, in which it takes place over the span of 4 years. We shouldn’t have an arc of Anakin growing up from a 10 year old boy to a 23 year old man, with his character changing radically off-screen each movie. It should be just about how he went from a good, selfless Jedi Knight to an evil Sith Lord. Anakin Skywalker to Darth Vader. That’s absolutely 3 films worth of content.

My inspiration for my version will be two masterpiece with similar stories: Breaking Bad and The Godfather. Both Walter White and Michael Corleone have shared points that help make their turn feel gradual and organic (The Godfather Part I and II and Breaking Bad Spoilers ahead).

1. Starting Point - Walter White is a good, yet meek, high school chemistry teacher and family man. Michael Corleone is a good man, an honest Italian-American who served in the military and keeps his mafia family at an arm’s length.
2. The Catalyst - Big change in the protagonist’s life that makes them change course. Cancer Diagnosis for Walter, attempted murder of Vito for Michael.
3. Desperate Decision - A choice the protagonist makes because they feel they have no other after the catalyst. Walter first deciding to cook meth to provide for his family. Michael choosing to save Vito at the hospital after he’s left unguarded, involving himself in the family business.
4. First (reluctant) Dark Deed - Killing Krazy 8 for Walter, Killing Sollozzo and McClusky for Michael.
5. Chance at Redemption - Walt leaves meth business out of guilt for killing Krazy 8, is offered Gretchen and Elliot’s money. Michael retreats to Sicily and marries Apollonia.
6. Redemption Destroyed - Walt refuses the money out of pride, Apollonia killed (only difference is one is self-inflicted, the other is external).
7. Full Commitment to the Dark Path - Protagonist regresses and starts on the dark path once again. Walt returns to meth business, Michael becomes the new Don. However, they’re still reluctant to do outright evil things, and has a lie they tell themselves (“I’m doing this for the family”, “In 5 years we’ll be legitimate”).
8. Gradual Descent to Further Darkness - Protagonist gradually does worse and worse things over the course of the movies/series, justifying each one as they go along. Friends, family, and wife either don’t know or go along with the lie.
9. Complete Monster - Protagonist has eventually done things that are completely unjustifiable and 100% selfish to the point where the audience and the people they love have turned against them. They are now completely the villains of the story. Walter poisoning Brock, killing Mike, and getting Hank killed, Michael killing Fredo.

Another thing they share in common is a backstory that gives context to their choices. Walter White’s past with Grey Matter and Gretchen counts as this, as does Michael Corleone, having served in the military (he has experience killing) and caring about his family. These things are either kept off-screen and alluded to or are in flashbacks. No flashbacks for Anakin though, as flashbacks go against the serial style that makes Star Wars feel like Star Wars.

The way the Prequels did it would be like if 1/3 of Breaking Bad was about Walter White’s past with Gretchen and working at Grey Matter and as a result his actual turn to being Heisenberg was condensed. It contributes to the arc but it’s the backstory. You don’t need to see it.

I think from here it’s pretty easy to come up with an arc for Anakin becoming Darth Vader.

Backstory: Anakin was once a slave. This was traumatic and makes Anakin naturally power hungry. He left his mother behind, the Jedi questioned him joining the order due to his natural repressing of his own feelings. Chancellor Palpatine encourages this by undoing the mental help the Jedi provide for Anakin, encouraging him to give into his dark impulses.

1. Starting Point - Anakin is a kind, courageous, loyal Jedi Knight with a close friendship with his Master Obi-Wan. He’s somewhat hot-headed, impulsive, and reckless but this sometimes comes in handy and it compliments Obi-Wan’s personality traits in a way that make them work well together. He’s well-loved by his Jedi family.
2. The Catalyst - Anakin receives visions of his mother and himself dying (in succession; he knows his mother is the first to die, then himself in a few years; he sees himself burning in a lava pit and assumes it’s a depiction of his death). He goes to Yoda for help, but he says that there’s nothing he can do and that death is a natural part of life that needs to be accepted.
3. Desperate Decision - Anakin learns that the Sith’s ultimate goal has always been to cheat death. He (with the encouragement and help of Palpatine) gets access to ancient Sith holocrons behind the Council’s backs from the Jedi archives, breaking the rules (he has to be a Master, and he’s only a Knight). He learns that he must indulge into the dark side in order to achieve the power to cheat death. As such, he starts force choking his enemies more and generally using the dark side in combat/being more brutal. He gives into his anger and hatred. Anakin also abandons an important mission to find his mother (thus putting others in jeopardy for his own personal problems).
4. First Dark Deed - Anakin murders the Tuskins in revenge for his mother’s death. Anakin also later murders Darth Maul in cold blood while unarmed. Technically two, but hey, I liked both and I couldn’t figure out which one to use.
5. Chance at Redemption - Anakin feels guilt for his deeds and decides not to continue using the dark side. He ascends to the rank of Jedi Master after killing the first Sith Lord in 1000 years (nobody knows Maul was unarmed). Anakin also finds love in Padme.
6. Redemption Destroyed - Anakin receives visions once again not only of himself dying, but of his wife eventually dying. Anakin cannot stand the thought of the thing that pulled him from darkness being taken from him.
7. Full Commitment to the Dark Path - Anakin regresses back to the ancient Sith holocrons. He tells himself he’s doing it for Padme and that he won’t become a Sith. He’ll just use the dark side enough to gain the power to cheat death, and after that will go back to the light side. The truth is, he’s doing it for himself.
8. Gradual Descent to Further Darkness - Anakin uses the dark side oftentimes on missions, becoming cold and ruthless to enemies and POWs and letting his rage consume him. He assassinates rival politicians to Palpatine by his command after being told they’re corrupt. Anakin starts accepting Sith ideology and supports Palpatine’s politics. Palpatine props up Anakin as a war hero constantly to the public, feeding his ego and further aligning Anakin with Palpatine. The Council notices some of Anakin’s behavior on the battlefield and he is demoted back to Jedi Knight. Anakin eventually kills Count Dooku the same way he killed Maul.
   At some point, Anakin commits a crime and a fellow Jedi witnesses it. They tell him that they’ll tell the Council (this is a crime that would get him expelled), and to prevent it, he kills them.
   Anakin isn’t just using the dark side to save Padme, he’s using the dark side because he loves it, and it makes him feel powerful. In other words, “I did it for me. I liked it”.
9. Complete Monster - Anakin gets kicked from the Jedi Order after his secret marriage is exposed, and the Jedi catch onto his usage of Sith holocrons and the dark side. They ultimately believe his banishment is for his own good. He can live a happy life with his wife, and it prevents him access from the Sith teachings, thus possibly allowing for him to recover.
   Palpatine tells Anakin that he’s the Sith Lord and that he cannot complete his dark side training without his help. As this is happening, the Jedi realize Palpatine is the Sith Lord and go to arrest him. Anakin kills the Jedi that went to arrest Palpatine. Anakin fully commits to being a Sith Lord and Palpatine’s apprentice. He is finally knighted Darth Vader. The rest of Revenge of the Sith commences as is.

I incorporated ideas from my Anakin/Vader and Morality thread.

I hope you guys like my idea and I’m interested to hear yours.

I really like your version of events. Especially how Anakin dabbles with Sith knowledge for a while before fully committing to it. It fits better with the idea of Anakin being seduced by the Dark Side rather than just being duped into it.

For a while, I considered cutting out Anakin’s discovery by the Jedi altogether, and just having him start as a padawan or knight at the beginning of Episode I. But I decided it is still important to show Obi-Wan meeting him for the first time, so I’ll have their meeting occur very early in the movie. And midway through, Anakin will already be Obi-Wan’s padawan, at least in an informal sense. Anakin will be nineteen, and an indentured servant living on Tatooine, when Obi-Wan meets him. Anakin ends up saving the day at the end of the movie, and is celebrated on Coruscant as a hero of the Republic.

Anakin can be knighted early in Episode II. Make it clear that a lot of people look up to him, but that the pressure of that is starting to get to him. He tries to put up this front of a stoic, selfless hero, but privately, he’s wracked by self doubt and PTSD. He tries to hide his problems, but the stress of the Clone Wars and all the death he’s surrounded by is keeping him up at night. Despite that, the soldiers under his command have great respect for him, and Anakin is shown to have a stern, commanding presence and a strong tactical mind.

Anakin’s mother dies near the end of Episode II, in a way that Anakin narrowly fails to prevent. Anakin goes into a whirlwind of emotion, and almost massacres the people responsible, but is stopped and calmed down by Obi-Wan.

Either at the end of II or the beginning of III, Coruscant is attacked and large swathes of the city are destroyed. Anakin and Padme work to rally the planet’s defenders, but Padme is then injured in the attack and is bedridden in a hospital. This throws Anakin further off balance. Anakin fights Darth Maul in the Chancellor’s office, and Maul taunts Anakin about how everything the Jedi have fought for is crumbling around him. Maul then senses Anakin’s distress about his wife, and taunts him about how she will be dead soon. This causes Anakin to finally snap and overpower Maul in a fit of rage, killing him as he begs for mercy.

From this point onward, even though Anakin isn’t technically a Sith yet, he’s already essentially on the Dark Side. When we see him again in III, he’s leading a bloody campaign of vengeance against those responsible for Coruscant. He’s soon expelled from the Jedi Order for committing war crimes and being driven by hate and revenge. Instead of Anakin becoming more unstable or fiery as he turns to the Dark Side, he becomes callous and cold. A ruthless general of the Republic/Empire.

It’s then that, per Palpatine’s subtle suggestion, he begins to dabble in Sith knowledge, looking for ways to destroy the enemy and end the war. He learns that Palpatine is planning to have the Jedi killed to solidify his power, and he decides that this is a necessary evil to restore order to the galaxy, and that the Jedi have become a liability, so he agrees to go along with it. When he confronts Obi-Wan on Mustafar, neither of them wants to kill the other. Obi-Wan begs Anakin to come back with him, while Anakin demands that Obi-Wan stand down. So with that impasse, they’re forced to fight. And you know the rest.

regularjoe said:

Watch Lost Highway.
Do this.
Change certain characters.
Palpy is Mystery Man
Anakin is Fred Madison
Padme is Renee Madison/Alice Wakefield
Samuel Jackson is Mr Eddy/Dick Laurent
Ewan McGregor is Pete Dayton

Okay, but if the Max Rebo Band covers “Rammstein”, I’m fuckin’ out.

I really like Mocata and screams in the void’s ideas from https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Anakin-Skywalkers-turn-to-the-darkside-your-alternatives/id/85631

Mocata said:

From what’s actually shown in the movies I always assumed Anakin enjoyed being aggressive to win battles. He would have naturally grown impatient with the Jedi teachers and taken the easier path. It’s a far more human response to their doctrine. Instead of all that “I need the secret to preventing death” nonsense. The only part that makes any real sense is his anger against the Tusken Raiders. But it falls down because we don’t ever see how that anger gives him more strength, and there are no repercussions. Where is the fallout or his anger towards Obi-wan and the council for letting this happen, or letting the slave trade continue? What does he learn from the experience, did he enjoy killing or see how rage is a powerful ally? It’s basically forgotten instead of being a genuine part of his character development.

screams in the void said:

^ good points ! Letting the slave trade continue on the part of the Jedi and Anakin’s anger over it could have been great character development ,especially if he expressed his feelings to them towards it beforehand and they dismissed him out of hand and he felt gas lighted as result . What happened subsequently with his Mother and the Tuskens would have made his fall to the dark side, the perfect impetuous for it . He would have been more easily taken in by Dooku’s views , more sympathetic to Qui Gon’s defiance of the council , and Palpatine would have had the perfect route to manipulate Anakin’s conflicted emotions for his own gain and cement the process .

It makes a more compelling story across the Prequels and also as a more believable and reasoned basis for Anakin’s turn to the dark side than the “I need the secret to preventing death” nonsense. Followed by his lightning quick turn to it as we saw in ROTS.

I don’t see how the “finding the secret to prevent death” is nonsense considering mortality is a big theme to the films. Force ghosts? “I’ve become more powerful then you can possibly imagine?”. Luke saying to Yoda that he can’t die and Yoda responding that that is the way of things?

As Lucas said, the epitome of greed is the desire to cheat death. The Sith are defined by being greedy and selfish. There’s nothing more greedy then wanting to take away a fundamental aspect of the nature of living things because you can’t accept the natural course of life. Therefore, it makes sense that the ultimate goal of the Sith is immortality. And as I said in another thread, having Anakin’s turn be about cheating death creates a nice retroactive arc when Vader accepts his death in ROTJ (“Nothing can stop that now”).

It’s an inherently fantastical concept, but this is Star Wars. The Force and lightsabers and stuff. Star Wars has mythological architypes all over the place, and mortality is a huge theme in all mythology. It was literally created to be a modern myth.

I do like the idea of Anakin becoming addicted to using his own anger in combat though, as well as wanting to control the galaxy using the dark side as he sees it’s more effective. That should be a part of his arc. But there should still be some big personal motivation and not just, “Being angry is cool and the Jedi are getting in the way of my groove”.

Also, in my opinion, I hate the idea of pinning the blame on the Jedi. Darth Vader should be a villain with agency who made his own choices. Palpatine should contribute and manipulate him, but it should ultimately be because of his choices. One of the reasons Walter White is so compelling is because he made his own choices. If it was just “Poor Walt, he has no choice but to cook meth, he just needs to provide for his family”, he’d become a weak and pathetic villain. Don’t strip Darth Vader of all his power by just pinning the blame on everyone around him.

G&G-Fan said:

I don’t see how the “finding the secret to prevent death” is nonsense considering mortality is a big theme to the films. Force ghosts? “I’ve become more powerful then you can possibly imagine?”. Luke saying to Yoda that he can’t die and Yoda responding that that is the way of things?

I can’t speak for Mocata, Screams In The Void or others. For me it was nonsense because it was so poorly executed and poorly shown in ROTS, and I believe there were other better ways to have Anakin fall to the dark side. You think so too in creating this thread and your opening post: “Anakin’s turn to the dark side wasn’t structured the best in the Prequels.”

As Lucas said, the epitome of greed is the desire to cheat death. The Sith are defined by being greedy and selfish. There’s nothing more greedy then wanting to take away a fundamental aspect of the nature of living things because you can’t accept the natural course of life. Therefore, it makes sense that the ultimate goal of the Sith is immortality. And as I said in another thread, having Anakin’s turn be about cheating death creates a nice retroactive arc when Vader accepts his death in ROTJ (“Nothing can stop that now”).

I do not care too much for what Lucas said later, because if he needs to explain things afterwards he likely did not do a good job explaining them on screen at the time. Lucas is also not a reliable person to listen to so I do not take his words seriously as some others do, even as the creative genius behind all of this. I do like to listen to creatives talk about their work and intentions, what worked and what didn’t, but in the end what matters is what happens on screen.

As others say “show, don’t tell”.
 

But I do like reading your and everyone’s thoughts on restructuring Anakin’s turn to the dark side in the Prequels.

Spartacus01 post above is interesting and has potential too.

Emre1601 said:

I can’t speak for Mocata, Screams In The Void or others. For me it was nonsense because it was so poorly executed and poorly shown in ROTS, and I believe there were other better ways to have Anakin fall to the dark side. You think so too in creating this thread and your opening post: “Anakin’s turn to the dark side wasn’t structured the best in the Prequels.”

We’re talking about ideas here, not the execution. They (and you) were saying that the idea of Anakin wanting to turn to the dark side to cheat death is a fundamentally bad idea. That was my argument that it’s not.

I do not care too much for what Lucas said later, because if he needs to explain things afterwards he likely did not do a good job explaining them on screen at the time. Lucas is also not a reliable person to listen to so I do not take his words seriously as some others do, even as the creative genius behind all of this. I do like to listen to creatives talk about their work and intentions, what worked and what didn’t, but in the end what matters is what happens on screen.

As others say “show, don’t tell”.

And again, I was just discussing the idea of Anakin turning to the dark side 'cause he wants the power to cheat death, and not how it was executed on screen.

Also Lucas is only “unreliable” when he’s lying about things as they were depicted in the special editions or prequels always being the intent even when he was making the original trilogy even when there’s evidence against it. This quote is from The Making of Revenge of the Sith in which he has no reason to lie because it was literally from when the film was released.

Everybody has lied in their life, you can’t just dismiss everything everyone says as a lie because they’ve lied before. You have to look at the reason why they did it and see if it applies.

G&G-Fan said:

Emre1601 said:

I can’t speak for Mocata, Screams In The Void or others. For me it was nonsense because it was so poorly executed and poorly shown in ROTS, and I believe there were other better ways to have Anakin fall to the dark side. You think so too in creating this thread and your opening post: “Anakin’s turn to the dark side wasn’t structured the best in the Prequels.”

We’re talking about ideas here, not the execution. They (and you) were saying that the idea of Anakin wanting to turn to the dark side to cheat death is a fundamentally bad idea. That was my argument that it’s not.

I do not care too much for what Lucas said later, because if he needs to explain things afterwards he likely did not do a good job explaining them on screen at the time. Lucas is also not a reliable person to listen to so I do not take his words seriously as some others do, even as the creative genius behind all of this. I do like to listen to creatives talk about their work and intentions, what worked and what didn’t, but in the end what matters is what happens on screen.

As others say “show, don’t tell”.

And again, I was just discussing the idea of Anakin turning to the dark side 'cause he wants the power to cheat death, and not how it was executed on screen.

Also Lucas is only “unreliable” when he’s lying about things as they were depicted in the special editions or prequels always being the intent even when he was making the original trilogy even when there’s evidence against it. This quote is from The Making of Revenge of the Sith in which he has no reason to lie because it was literally from when the film was released.

Everybody has lied in their life, you can’t just dismiss everything everyone says as a lie because they’ve lied before. You have to look at the reason why they did it and see if it applies.

Of course everyone lies. But George not only lies, but also retcons and tries to rewrite and change history. He would have done this again if he had made the Sequels with his treatments, not that this is important in this discussion.

I already said I do not dismiss everything George says, but again what matters more to me is what is onscreen. “show, don’t tell”. Explanations off the screen do not interest me very much.

It was his poor execution of the idea that made it nonsense to me, it happened so quickly it was not believable and was jarring. If it had been given more time to brew it would have been better. I think a bad idea done well can make it a lot better and more enjoyable. And a good idea done poorly can have an awful effect to a story in film.

I am not here to have an “argument”, as we are just discussing different ideas that we like and could have been better. I very much liked Mocata and Screams ideas from the other thread. And Spartacus01 post above was interesting too.

The way I see it, Anakin should be a mirror of Luke, one who turns dark where Luke will avoid doing so.

Over time I’ve realized my mental picture is something to the effect of this:

Episode I:

Anakin lives on Tatooine w his brother Owen (& parents?). He’s around the same age Luke will be in ANH. Obi-Wan is a general in the Alderaanian military, about ten years older than Anakin (compare Han & Luke). Alderaan is part of the Republic, which is threatened by invading armies of clone warriors from some other culture. Obi-Wan is also a Jedi Knight, a practitioner of understanding and using the Force to do good works in the galaxy. He is on a mission from one planet to another (ferrying info, or recruiting for war effort, something like that) but his ship comes under attack and he’s forced to crash land on Tatooine. He makes contact w the locals, including Anakin, and asks for help repairing and restocking his ship.

Anakin is a mechanically-minded person, who has vague dreams and ideals like wanting to make a difference in the galaxy, and ‘do good,’ but until now has had no chance to express them. He helps Obi-Wan, and wants to accompany him off planet, to fight in the Clone Wars and even become a Jedi. Owen thinks this is foolish and reckless. He’s a more provincial thinker.

Long story short, Anakin goes with Ben to fight in the wars and to train as a Jedi. Ben hasn’t taught before, but he’s confident he can do just as good a job as his own teacher did. He sees his own idealism and do-gooder nature in Anakin, and wants to nurture that.

Episode II:

Anakin is now a Jedi Knight, and he and Ben and other Knights patrol the spacelanes in the wake of the Wars. Anakin sees the horrors of not only the aftermath of the Clone Wars, but the turmoil and internecine strife (some of it deliberately engineered to cause division, it may later turn out) of the post-war period. Planets burned, children orphaned, species genocided. His confidence in the power of democracy (the Republic), fair play, treating others as ends unto themselves - basic humane ideals - to deal with threats, is shaken. He craves strength, to use his will on behalf of others.

In the central systems, a charismatic politician is rising, one who promises to take a hard line on dissent and anything else which could threaten safety and security in the Republic. Anakin is drawn to this, and becomes an ally. Perhaps he (and Obi-Wan?), acting to protect the social order, foil an assassination plot on this Senator Palpatine?

(This plot might have been engineered by Palpatine as a test?)

At some point Anakin has a romantic interest here, though exactly who Mrs. Skywalker is, I’m not sure.

Episode III:

Anakin is an agent of now-Chancellor Palpatine. Encouraged by the Chancellor, he takes more and more inspiration from old exotic Force traditions like the Sith, who prized power and judgment over all - even styling body armor for himself. In the course of some mission (which Obi-Wan understands to be to investigate a rumor of malfeasance on behalf of some of Palpatine’s political opposition but is really an engineered takedown), Anakin inadvertently discovers the true goals and background of the Chancellor - that is, he’s a dark sorcerer, much older than he appears, and he wants an Empire.

(He’s been building a splinter political group - agency? party? -, whose agents have been taking more and more power and restructuring the systems of power around themselves.)

Obi-Wan is immediately at Defcon 1. Anakin sees how he should be troubled by this revelation, but he isn’t. He only cares that Palpatine will institute a New Order in the galaxy.

He might know his wife is with child, or speak in terms of making the galaxy safe for future generations… he sees the Republic, and the Jedi way, and Obi-Wan, as too weak to do what must be done. Strength and dominance are the highest virtues, and any means are worth it in pursuit of those ends.

Obi-Wan means to warn the galaxy and other Jedi, and Anakin means to protect Palpatine’s plan, and they clash on the volcano.

At some point, after some battling, and as a result of his domineering approach, Anakin is knocked onto or falls onto a dangling gantry or unstable platform, and needs assistance to escape falling into lava or burning, melted rubble. But he can’t bring himself to take Ben’s outstretched hand - symbol of weakness. Vader chooses to fall to his death rather than admit he was wrong or that he might need help.

Of course, Vader doesn’t die, but is instead rescued by Palpatine’s Imperial forces. He is kept alive by additions to his armor in the form of the walking iron lung, and by a burning hatred and disdain for the weakness of the Jedi mindset and for Obi-Wan in particular.

.

Things I do not include or really care about:

• the Rule of Two
• Palpatine being definitely a Sith (as opposed to just a Dark Sorcerer)
• anything about a Chosen One created by the Force
• the Force being in or out of balance
• the power to cheat death (except in the form of Jedi/light siders becoming ghosts who can take no or vague action on the mortal plane (Obi-Wan’s “I cannot interfere” and Yoda summoning weather-related lightning in Ep 8 are good examples) & dark siders being able to tie their spirits to places or objects & take actions, but not be tied to the cosmos while doing so)

I’m also not sure if Yoda appears or we only hear about him, saving his reveal for ESB.

American Hominid said:

• Palpatine being definitely a Sith (as opposed to just a Dark Sorcerer)

Palpatine has been a Sith since TESB. Vader calls him his master in both TESB and ROTJ. He can’t be his master if he’s not even from the same Order. Vader has also always been a Sith since ANH’s first drafts.

G&G-Fan said:

American Hominid said:

• Palpatine being definitely a Sith (as opposed to just a Dark Sorcerer)

Palpatine has been a Sith since TESB. Vader calls him his master in both TESB and ROTJ. He can’t be his master if he’s not even from the same Order. Vader has also always been a Sith since ANH’s first drafts.

Eh… the word ‘Sith’ is not mentioned onscreen til TPM (since it was cut from ANH - I think at one point Tagge or Motti said it?) and IIRC only Vader was called ‘Dark Lord of the Sith’ in public-facing materials of the time. GL had a lot of ideas and intentions, some of which are old and some which evolved over time. I’m going with what I feel would be cool.

‘Master’ could mean a lot of things. I think the most obvious interp is ‘master - apprentice,’ but that does not necessitate an institutional allegiance, more an expertise-sharing dynamic. It could also mean ‘master - servant,’ which is kinda suggested by some of Palpatine’s lines (“with each passing moment you make yourself more my servant”) - and Vader’s (“I must obey my master”).

If GL can get away w retconning Obi-Wan’s “master” to be Qui-Gon (as opposed to Yoda), I think I could get away w a similar stretch. I mean, I’m already doing away with the whole notion of a super organized Jedi Order & The Council. This seems small potatoes in comparison. At the same time, if Palp were a Sith I don’t think it’d change much in this outline - it’s just not necessary for him to be so, for this story to work.

American Hominid said:

G&G-Fan said:

American Hominid said:

• Palpatine being definitely a Sith (as opposed to just a Dark Sorcerer)

Palpatine has been a Sith since TESB. Vader calls him his master in both TESB and ROTJ. He can’t be his master if he’s not even from the same Order. Vader has also always been a Sith since ANH’s first drafts.

Eh… the word ‘Sith’ is not mentioned onscreen til TPM (since it was cut from ANH - I think at one point Tagge or Motti said it?) and IIRC only Vader was called ‘Dark Lord of the Sith’ in public-facing materials of the time. GL had a lot of ideas and intentions, some of which are old and some which evolved over time. I’m going with what I feel would be cool.

‘Master’ could mean a lot of things. I think the most obvious interp is ‘master - apprentice,’ but that does not necessitate an institutional allegiance, more an expertise-sharing dynamic. It could also mean ‘master - servant,’ which is kinda suggested by some of Palpatine’s lines (“with each passing moment you make yourself more my servant”) - and Vader’s (“I must obey my master”).

Indeed. Besides, in both the Legends and Disney continuities, we have non-Sith darksiders who answer to Vader/Palpatine, even receiving training from them. The most notable example’s probably Mara Jade. And then there are all the inquisitors. So the notion that even masters/apprentices have to belong to the same order was never in play.

It’s probably difficult for some folks to wrap their heads around Vader being the Dark Lord of the Sith whilst being subservient to a non-Sith Palpatine because since 1999, the Sith have been portrayed as apex predators who have a monopoly on dark side mastery. But this is purely an invention of the prequels.

Superweapon VII said:

It’s probably difficult for some folks to wrap their heads around Vader being the Dark Lord of the Sith whilst being subservient to a non-Sith Palpatine because since 1999, the Sith have been portrayed as apex predators who have a monopoly on dark side mastery. But this is purely an invention of the prequels.

You do realize that the fact that Vader calls Palpatine his master obviously means Palpatine was a Sith in TESB and ROTJ? Like yeah you can rationalize a different explanation but it’s clear that’s the intention. There’s no need to jump through hoops for another explanation. The scripts for all three call Vader a Dark Lord of the Sith and the Emperor is his master.

“Master” obviously does refer to their relationship as Sith Lords because none of the imperials are calling him master, so it’s not just a term recognizing his authority. Vader is his apprentice and he tries to replace him with Luke, as he calls him his apprentice twice.

There’s literally no reason to not make Palpatine a Sith other then to just be different for no reason.

G&G-Fan said:

Superweapon VII said:

It’s probably difficult for some folks to wrap their heads around Vader being the Dark Lord of the Sith whilst being subservient to a non-Sith Palpatine because since 1999, the Sith have been portrayed as apex predators who have a monopoly on dark side mastery. But this is purely an invention of the prequels.

You do realize that the fact that Vader calls Palpatine his master obviously means Palpatine was a Sith in TESB and ROTJ? Like yeah you can rationalize a different explanation but it’s clear that’s the intention. There’s no need to jump through hoops for another explanation. The scripts for all three call Vader a Dark Lord of the Sith and the Emperor is his master.

Eh, I don’t think it’s as open-and-shut as you’re suggesting. The early conception of the Sith leaned more into the warrior aspect, which Palpatine, as a sorcerer, lacked completely. All that’s implied in the OT is that Vader the Sith swore fealty to the Emperor, who’s powerful in the Dark Side, but seems dismissive of lightsabers.

G&G-Fan said:

Superweapon VII said:

It’s probably difficult for some folks to wrap their heads around Vader being the Dark Lord of the Sith whilst being subservient to a non-Sith Palpatine because since 1999, the Sith have been portrayed as apex predators who have a monopoly on dark side mastery. But this is purely an invention of the prequels.

You do realize that the fact that Vader calls Palpatine his master obviously means Palpatine was a Sith in TESB and ROTJ? Like yeah you can rationalize a different explanation but it’s clear that’s the intention. There’s no need to jump through hoops for another explanation. The scripts for all three call Vader a Dark Lord of the Sith and the Emperor is his master.

If it was so obvious, Tom Veitch, the man who for all intents and purposes invented the Sith, would’ve went with it. But he implicitly denied Palpatine was Sith in Empire’s End.

“Master” obviously does refer to their relationship as Sith Lords because none of the imperials are calling him master, so it’s not just a term recognizing his authority. Vader is his apprentice and he tries to replace him with Luke, as he calls him his apprentice twice.

None of the officers in the Imperial Starfleet are trained Force users.

There’s literally no reason to not make Palpatine a Sith other then to just be different for no reason.

I can think of a reason. Creating dissonance between Sith philosophy and Palpatine’s, aggravating already existing tension between Vader and the man holding his leash.

Channel72 said:

In general, a story like the Prequels is very hard to write. A “good guy turns evil” script is not easy to pull off in a believable way, especially in only 3 movies. Yeah, the Godfather pulled it off, but that’s why its revered as a classic. Also, Michael Corleone went from a normal every-man to a very unforgiving mafia boss. Anakin has to go from an honorable, likable hero, to a genocidal fascist cyborg in only 3 films. This kind of story is hard to pull off, and I almost wonder if The Phantom Menace was Lucas’ way of unconsciously procrastinating on all that difficult dramatic writing.

Lucas briefly toyed with the idea of a 12-episode saga. Episode I would’ve been the prelude to the Clone Wars trilogy, with Episode V serving as an interquel between the Clone & Star Wars trilogies. That would’ve given us 4-5 films in which to explore Vader’s rise and fall.

What could’ve been. But this is why I’m partial to rewrites/fanedits which jettison the episode numbers altogether.

Channel72 said:

In general, a story like the Prequels is very hard to write. A “good guy turns evil” script is not easy to pull off in a believable way, especially in only 3 movies. Yeah, the Godfather pulled it off, but that’s why its revered as a classic. Also, Michael Corleone went from a normal every-man to a very unforgiving mafia boss. Anakin has to go from an honorable, likable hero, to a genocidal fascist cyborg in only 3 films. This kind of story is hard to pull off, and I almost wonder if The Phantom Menace was Lucas’ way of unconsciously procrastinating on all that difficult dramatic writing.

Very true. It’s very hard to write a good person becoming a bad person in a way that feels natural, doesn’t feel out of the blue and would make sense in their head, while at the same time making sure you don’t make them pathetic and without agency either by having it feel like they were practically forced into it.

I love yours ideas for the trilogy btw.

Superweapon VII said:

Lucas briefly toyed with the idea of a 12-episode saga. Episode I would’ve been the prelude to the Clone Wars trilogy, with Episode V serving as an interquel between the Clone & Star Wars trilogies. That would’ve given us 4-5 films in which to explore Vader’s rise and fall.

What could’ve been. But this is why I’m partial to rewrites/fanedits which jettison the episode numbers altogether.

Where would episode 6 have gone then?

But yeah I’m completely sympathetic to people who want there to be more then 3 films.