How would you have done ROTJ? — Page 9

DarthJarJar said:

twooffour said:

LOL

So your convoluted scheme achieves what exactly?
Instead of Anakin being the fallen Jedi who becomes Darth Vader... he's the fallen Jedi who defeated Darth Vader and assumed his name? What?

Convoluted eh? Not like the plot of Eps 1, 2 and 3 which are incredibly complex and make NO SENSE at all (copyright redlettermedia :)).  I thought this was a forum for how we would have done ROTJ differently so this was MY opinion. Admittedly it diverged a bit off topic with the turn of Anakin but that is important for ROTJ. 

So should I have said that your idea was as bad as the prequels? ;)

How about you address the fact that no one in the OT knew about Anakin-Vader, hence your entire solution becomes pointless?

twooffour said:

1. And there again you attempt a silly parody by putting random words in quotes and capitals.
I only use them when it makes sense to do so.

twooffour said:

So the "problem" you're trying to "solve" here, is non-existent.

DarthJarJar said:

twooffour said:

LOL

So your convoluted scheme achieves what exactly?
Instead of Anakin being the fallen Jedi who becomes Darth Vader... he's the fallen Jedi who defeated Darth Vader and assumed his name? What?

Convoluted eh? Not like the plot of Eps 1, 2 and 3 which are incredibly complex and make NO SENSE at all (copyright redlettermedia :)).  I thought this was a forum for how we would have done ROTJ differently so this was MY opinion. Admittedly it diverged a bit off topic with the turn of Anakin but that is important for ROTJ. 

Don't listen to him it's an interesting re-jig.

And it ties in with the long form of the Biggs deleted scene where Red Leader remembers Luke's father (not to mention many a Marvel comic pre-1980).

TV's Frink said:

twooffour said:

1. And there again you attempt a silly parody by putting random words in quotes and capitals.
I only use them when it makes sense to do so.

twooffour said:

So the "problem" you're trying to "solve" here, is non-existent.

 

Yes, that's quotes of dissociation.

It's not a true problem, and there is nothing to solve.
However, DarthJarJar mentioned a problem that he attempted to solve.

So I'm referring to his STATEMENTS (emphasis on teh important) that I'm DISSOCIATING (... since you wouldn't get it otherwise) myself from.

Such dissociation may or may not carry a portion of sarcasm, i.e. mocking the use of said expressions while mentioning them (or using them mockingly), which is the case here.
Also look up "use-mention error" on the interwebs, and how quotation marks are often used LESS THAN THEY SHOULD.
______

Oh boy, Frink... you don't even know the basics, and are attempting to parody? Friedberg & Seltzer anyone?

You know, like the smartass kid that tries to make fun of adult conversations.
"Hahaha, why you talking about "left" and "right" (pronounced with a silly OTT expression typical for 8 year olds) all the time, I mean lol? Here's my left side and here's my right side, and the Earth is round as I've learned yesterday! What does this have to do with countries?"
Adults: "........"
Kid: "Oh"

Bingowings said:

DarthJarJar said:

twooffour said:

LOL

So your convoluted scheme achieves what exactly?
Instead of Anakin being the fallen Jedi who becomes Darth Vader... he's the fallen Jedi who defeated Darth Vader and assumed his name? What?

Convoluted eh? Not like the plot of Eps 1, 2 and 3 which are incredibly complex and make NO SENSE at all (copyright redlettermedia :)).  I thought this was a forum for how we would have done ROTJ differently so this was MY opinion. Admittedly it diverged a bit off topic with the turn of Anakin but that is important for ROTJ. 

Don't listen to him it's an interesting re-jig.

And it ties in with the long form of the Biggs deleted scene where Red Leader remembers Luke's father (not to mention many a Marvel comic pre-1980).

Where? Which? It's in none of the "well-known" ones (the bar, the farewell, at the rebel base), so it must be OBSCURE.

At any rate, it's a DELETED scene. It's deleted. It doesn't have to be explained away by any "rewrites" - just keep the scene out of the movie!

And anyways, Biggs didn't say anything about Luke's father becoming Darth Vader, right? I mean, they hadn't even thought that up during ANH (where Biggs died, you know), so he probably just... mentioned Skywalker Senior and what an awesome guy he was?


Because according to DarthJarJar, everyone in the rebellion knew about Anakin/Darth Vader, but didn't tell Luke (based on the fact that he was surprised to learn about it).
But hey, don't listen to me... don't listen to reason, or apply scrutiny... it's an interesting "re-jig", bro!

twooffour said:

TV's Frink said:

twooffour said:

1. And there again you attempt a silly parody by putting random words in quotes and capitals.
I only use them when it makes sense to do so.

twooffour said:

So the "problem" you're trying to "solve" here, is non-existent.

 

Yes, that's quotes of dissociation.

It's not a true problem, and there is nothing to solve.
However, DarthJarJar mentioned a problem that he attempted to solve.

So I'm referring to his STATEMENTS (emphasis on teh important) that I'm DISSOCIATING (... since you wouldn't get it otherwise) myself from.

Such dissociation may or may not carry a portion of sarcasm, i.e. mocking the use of said expressions while mentioning them (or using them mockingly), which is the case here.
Also look up "use-mention error" on the interwebs, and how quotation marks are often used LESS THAN THEY SHOULD.
______

Oh boy, Frink... you don't even know the basics, and are attempting to parody? Friedberg & Seltzer anyone?

You know, like the smartass kid that tries to make fun of adult conversations.
"Hahaha, why you talking about "left" and "right" (pronounced with a silly OTT expression typical for 8 year olds) all the time, I mean lol? Here's my left side and here's my right side, and the Earth is round as I've learned yesterday! What does this have to do with countries?"
Adults: "........"
Kid: "Oh"

Ha-ha, a predictably awesome post.

Zaboo says:

Bookmark'd.

It's an aspect of the story outside the film that I grew up with waiting for ESB between 1977 and 1980 (like knowing Vader needed the suit because of fighting Ben near a Volcano).

So having Anakin as a famous Jedi hero is something that was planted in my mind from an early age and remained there until the PT screwed it up.

It added to the shock of the ESB reveal beyond what was seen in Star Wars (1977).

And it's a perfectly good re-jig anyway so there is no need to shoot it down, it's not a beauty contest.

It's not how I would have done it but it's a valid alternate storyline.

Surely the point of this thread is to discuss how we would have done things and the backstory about Anakin is potentially a component part of ROTJ.

I don't usually try to create more "contention," but I can't help but observe that there are certain individuals who really seem to always be "at the scene" whenever there is an argument.  I won't mention anyone "by name," but I think we already KNOW who they are.

"Interesting."

TV's Frink said:

Ha-ha, a predictably awesome post.

Well, thank you.




The sad thing, you probably won't learn anything from it.
You actually didn't know that quotation marks can be used for dissociation, and you probably still don't. Oh well.

darth_ender said:

I don't usually try to create more "contention," but I can't help but observe that there are certain individuals who really seem to always be "at the scene" whenever there is an argument.  I won't mention anyone "by name," but I think we already KNOW who they are.

No.

Honestly get an off-topic room girls.

Bingowings said:

It's an aspect of the story outside the film that I grew up with waiting for ESB between 1977 and 1980 (like knowing Vader needed the suit because of fighting Ben near a Volcano).

So having Anakin as a famous Jedi hero is something that was planted in my mind from an early age and remained there until the PT screwed it up.

Well, how so?
He WAS a famous Jedi hero until he fell, right? Sure, a douche, but did everyone in the galaxy know that?
A lot of famous artists, or generals or whatever, were douches in private, but the public generally doesn't mind.

Not to say that the prequels DIDN'T ruin a lot, but I don't think they ruined the continuity on this one. I mean, they got those videotapes of him killing babies, but then, as Plinkett points out - they could've taken this to the court, but didn't. So did the galaxy really learn about it?


But anyway, that's not the argument. It's not that Anakin was a well-known fighter pilot. It's that according to DarthJarJAr, EVERYONE IN THE REBELLION KNOWS HE BECAME DARTH VADER.
So did you have that in mind when gasping at the ESB reveal, eh? Eh?

And that's the problem with the his rewrite - it's there to solve a problem that isn't there in the first place, and is full or redundant redundancy itself.
"How do we make people keep Anakin in good memory? Everyone knows he's Vader, after all! Well, let's make Anakin assume Vader's identity after faling to the dark side!"
"No one knew about his turn, it already happened in secret".
"... WHY CONVOLUTED LOL??!1"

And I find it trying sometimes... irritating, time-consuming.. annoying... when they don't listen. ;)

Anakin, famous Jedi hero as a piece of Star Wars mythology (like Vader being a Sith Lord, a term which isn't mentioned on screen until 1999) was well circulated and Darth Vader as an Imperial enforcer/former Jedi/who helped the Emperor hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights isn't Top Secret information by any means.

Imperial officers and rebel princesses use Vader's infamy as a means to snipe at him.

So as a re-jig Darth JarJar's idea could work.

Naturally Anakin being Vader is not open knowledge (maybe the Imperial elite know about the specifics but as far as we know for sure they are as clued up as we all were watching the first film) but that doesn't have any impact on his idea.

You don't get a cash prize on this thread you do realise this?

Bingowings said:

but that doesn't have any impact on his idea.

Nope; sorry; it does.

Also everyone seems to remember Anakin as a great hero not the child murdering scumbag he actually is.

That's because no one in the rebellion knows?

My solution is this:

[...]

When Luke questions him about it he can truthfully say that Anakin was a great jedi and a great friend.

No, because in his rewrite, Anakin still falls to the dark side and duels against Ben... and becomes Darth Vader... in secret... just like in the actual storyline.

Anakin is still remembered as a great hero by the general public. Only Ben knows the truth that Vader is Anakin.

Yes, that's the actual storyline of the movie.


See it now?

Also it affects the way people treat Luke. If it was common knowledge that Anakin had turned to the dark side and become a sith (and everyone would have found out especially amongst the rebels) then they would be very wary of Luke. However if Anakin is still remembered as a great hero of the old republic then they would be far more welcoming to Luke.

Yes.. and that's how it ALREADY IS.

He's not changing a "everyone should be wary of Luke but isn't" plot into "now under my rewrite, no one actually knows" - ALREADY no one knows, and he's being redundant.

How hard is that to grasp?

Bingowings said:

You don't get a cash prize on this thread you do realise this?

This.

In his idea Anakin was a good friend to Ben and generally the nice guy still accurately remembered as heroic, until he used the seductive power of the Dark Side to defeat Ben's other apprentice (the child murdering scumbag).

It's not what I would do, it doesn't glue back on any shattered plot points (it makes Anakin a more redeemable character and someone you might care more about before he turned bad) but it doesn't contradict anything we know either.

It's a serving suggestion.

It might not be to your taste but you don't have to scream at the waiter.

Bingowings said:

In his idea Anakin was a good friend to Ben and generally the nice guy still accurately remembered as heroic, until he used the seductive power of the Dark Side to defeat Ben's other apprentice (the child murdering scumbag).

It's not what I would do, it doesn't glue back on any shattered plot points (it makes Anakin a more redeemable character and someone you might care more about before he turned bad) but it doesn't contradict anything we know either.

It's a serving suggestion.

It might not be to your taste but you don't have to scream at the waiter.

 

Alright then, seems like you're on brickwall mode today... is there ANY way to get through to you? Please?
It's so, so simple...

His idea... doesn't change anything. Do you get that?
He thinks he's improving a major plot hole (that everyone should know about Anakin-Vader and be wary of Luke), but he's thought up this plot hole, and makes the story into WHAT IT ALREADY IS.

Okay, I'll break this down for you for the last time, real simple:

-Real story: Anakin was a friend of Ben, then turned evil and became Darth Vader at some point; no one knows about that.

-The real story in his mind: Anakin was a friend of Ben, then turned evil and became Darth Vader; everyone seems to know, which sucks and makes no sense.

-His "improvement": Anakin was a friend of Ben, then turned evil by killing Darth Vader and assuming his identity; no one knows about that.

-Real story: Anakin was a friend of Ben, then turned evil and became Darth Vader at some point; no one knows about that.

???


Please... this has nothing to do with my "taste"; his solution is nonsensical, it doesn't solve anything he claims to be solving, and is based on getting the FACTS from the movies wrong.

In his idea Anakin was a good friend to Ben and generally the nice guy still accurately remembered as heroic

until he used the seductive power of the Dark Side to defeat Ben's other apprentice (the child murdering scumbag)

And why does it have to be Darth Vader, and not some other prick?
Why this convoluted "first Vader was Vader, but then Anakin killed him and became Vader" poppycock?

Also may I remind you, we're talking about rewriting ROTJ here. No one ever said anything about child murdering in ROTJ.

it makes Anakin a more redeemable character and someone you might care more about before he turned bad

How does making Anakin turn to the dark side by defeating Vader, make him a more redeemable character than by killing some other bad guy?
ROTJ doesn't say how he turned, right?

but it doesn't contradict anything we know either.

twooffour said:

Alright then, seems like you're on brickwall mode today... is there ANY way to get through to you? Please?
It's so, so simple...

His idea... doesn't change anything. Do you get that?
He thinks he's improving a major plot hole (that everyone should know about Anakin-Vader and be wary of Luke), but he's thought up this plot hole, and makes the story into WHAT IT ALREADY IS.

Okay, I'll break this down for you for the last time, real simple:

{snipped due to boredom}


Please... this has nothing to do with my "taste"; his solution is nonsensical, it doesn't solve anything he claims to be solving, and is based on getting the FACTS from the movies wrong.

{even more boring, also snipped}

Bingo, why even try?

TV's Frink said:

 

Bingo, why even try?

Try what? Denying sense and logic?

Yea, Bingo, why you doing that? It's futile, you know.

xhonzi said:

2/4 & Bingo-

You're both right and I'm not sure why you're arguing.

The PT & OT as they currently are depict the fact that Anakin and Vader are the same as a little known secret.  Of the living, it appears that only Vader, Palpatine, Obi-Wan and Yoda know the truth at the beginning of A New Hope, and potentially Bail.  So, having it be even more of a secret (?) to the rest of the Star Wars galaxy doesn't change/fix anything.  Making it ambiguous to the audience would be cool, but that's a discussion for another thread *cough*http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/forum.cfm/Script-Writing-and-Re-writing/forum/21/*cough*

But Anakin can still be a very famous war hero from the Clone Wars and not wreck the secret.  And, in my mind, he was well known to people who knew what was going on in the Wars.

And that's why Binks' idea is redundant and silly ;)

^

Whatevar!