How would you have done ROTJ? — Page 8

The Aluminum Falcon said:

Hmm... perhaps the most glaring thing of ROTJ to me about the movie is its lack of grandeur and its wholly inconsistent tone.

I probably would have made Endor a far more exotic planet, maybe filled with unearthly plants... It wouldn't look like Earth's forests.

An aesthetic change I'd make is having Luke have a red lightsaber and Darth Vader have a blue light saber, having retrieved his old lightsaber from the duel on Cloud City. It would be like the "Revenge" poster and also hint at a change in the two characters. Vader going back too good and Luke possibly falling to the Dark Side. It would enhance the reverse symbolism greatly in the end duel... speaking of duels,

Another thing I would have is a double-duel between Obi-Wan and the Emperor and Vader and Luke. As in the early drafts, Obi-Wan would have been resurrected back in the flesh with more power than Vader imagined... equal if not better to the Emperor. The Vader and Luke duel would be lightsabers, as in the movie. On the other hand, the other duel would be using the force... going as far as to shift the environment with the force. It would be somewhat like Scanners...

Speaking of Scanners, I think that ROTJ could have used a better director to fix the wholly inconsistent tone. It would have been nice to have either Croenberg or Spielberg. Croenberg could have provided a much more cerebral ending, while Spielberg could focus on the "family" aspect of the movie, since it's a recurring theme of his movies

I'm sorry my man, but all these ideas are terrible. The irony is that they sound like something that post-1990 George Lucas would approve of. Shifting the environment with the force? Really? Sometimes less is more and The force works much better as a concept when it is something subtle - but that went out the door with ESB.

cthulhu1138 said:

There would be no second Death Star. Instead I would have had an Imperial drydock where warships are being mass produced. It would still be above Endor and the Empire would be mining the moon to death for raw materials.

The whole rescue Han scene would be the same (although less muppety and more Heavy Metal feeling) and would still be sort of light hearted.

Afterward Han and Lando would reconcile their differences aboard the Millennium Falcon after they depart Tatooine

Only when Luke speaks to Yoda it is revealed that Luke only made the rescue plan so convolted was to impress leia with his new found Jedi prowess. Luke realizes he has done wrong after Yoda has died.

When Ben tells Luke about his father he gives him the "certain point of view speech" but asks Luke if he would really have wanted to know.

 

"What would you have done with that information, Luke? Would you have rushed to face him then as you did for your friends?"

 

Ewoks would still be there only because I love the sort of whimsical quality they bring the film what with friendly forest creatures helping to take down a dark sorcerer (Palpatine).

 

And I would have Han and Leia marry before the Alliance briefing scene. Then when Luke shows up he is in shock. This would make the relationship very tense but he finally realizes what he has to do. Be bids Leia goodbye and goes to face his father.

 

just my $0.02

 

This is good.

danny_boy said:

 

 

 

 

 

Zombie wrote:

-Jabbas palace takes up something like 45 minutes of the film. Too much. I like this sequence, actually, but it goes on for too long.

In the context of 1983, it was electrifying to see Luke display the kind of powers(for the 1st time on the sail barge) that had been implied about  Jedi knights in the previous 2 movies(but never seen)
At the time no one had seen a  Jedi deflect laser blast shots with a lightsaber and summersault off a plank!.

This was also the completion of the arc---from the Luke that gets beaten and bundled around  by the sandpeople and the monsters in the cantina in Ep IV to the Luke who struggles to make a combative  impression on Vader in ESB  to this Luke in ROTJ who almost single handedly beats Jabba's entourage. It is this evolution in Luke's fighting skills that provides the contrast with the earlier films

 -Too many puppets and masks throughout the film. I like the uber-exotic style Lucas wanted for the film--but show some restraint. The film goes just a bit too far into Peewees Playhouse territory. When the dance scene comes on, even in 1983, the film stopped dead.

I saw the film twice in 83 and it most certainly did not stop dead(for me!)---The dance provided the superficial entertainment before the drama(Introduction of Busch and the Rancor scene).It also racked up the anticipation of seeing the Frozen Solo  being released.
Sometimes you need balance---- a film of this nature( the optomistic/climactic conclusion to a series of entertaining films THAT DO  NOT TAKE THEMSELVES SERIOUSLY-yes even Empire!) cannot be pulled down by consistent dramatic tension.Dramatic tension must oscillate throughout this type of film---not remain constant.

  -Recycled plot. This is maybe the most uninteresting thing about the film. More cantina aliens, another Death Star battle. The original script which was set on Coruscant was much more interesting.

Well people tend to forget that the Falcon was chased by Stardestroyers and Tie fighters in ESB---just like it was in EPIV(Ok not for very long)
The difference being that the methods in ESB were more elaborate.
In the same manner ROTJ enhances the methodology of the Death star battle(compared to EPIV).

ESB also has "another Lightsaber battle" and more cantina aliens(in the form of the bounty hunters!)

-The actors have no real drama. Carrie Fisher sleep-walks through the film: and Harrison Ford looks like he is doing a parody of Han Solo--and did someone chop his balls off or what? The character has none of the passion or wit of the other films.

On my 2nd viewing  of ROTJ  back in 83' I distinctly remember the audience laughing at Solo's sarcastic retort  to Luke's "I am taking care of everything" :
"Ohhhh....... great!"

---what about the:
"I am out of it for a little while and everybody suffers/gets delusions of grandeur!"--classic Solo in my book.

In response to being digested by the sarllac for a 1000 years:
"Does not sound so bad"


------ which brings me onto your next point:

But more than that, the character relationships have no tension.

But the dynamics had changed.
This was the difference.
We did not need another film of Solo saving (and talking down or dismisively to) Luke.
Now Luke was an equal (or even a superior) who was saving Solo whilst doing it with some style and therefore bringing the relationship  full circle.

 

Lando and Han are best buds again, for some reason.  

Lando and Han being buds was never a big deal or even noticable--- both characters were going to be separated in the upcoming pivotal battle scenes.
Having them being antagonistic to each other served no purpose from a story telling point of view(unlike ESB).
Although the "come on Han don't let me down" was a clever implied/reference to past frictions(at least for those who had seen ESB)

Luke somehow is in love with his father now, when the last time we saw him he was babbling to himself in a bloody, teary mess "Ben, why didn't you tell me..." Obi Wan just shrugs off Luke's accusation that he lied to him and was using him for his own personal battles.

Again this was the evolution of Luke's character---his emotional restraint(which is interpreted as being subdued) is what allows the contrast to be so striking when he lashes out at Vader----"Never!"

It is the one moment in the entire film where he almost loses his cool and control--im my opinion powerful and dramatic stuff.

 

 Luke shows up just in time for Yoda to announce he is about to die, and then does.

 

 

And in terms of approaching the subject of death--- this is as an accurate and touching a depiction as you get in any of the original 3 films.
Not bad for a kid friendly film(e.g nothing regarding death in the final Harry Potter or LOTR film comes close in terms of subtelty to this scene!).

And it is funny how Kurtz keeps babbling on about how Solo not being killed sucks---whilst forgeting how  Lucas took a risk in "killing" off  the much loved Yoda.

And somehow, Luke was busy for like 4 months and couldn't be bothered to finish his training--which he is conveniently told he no longer needs anyway. And then Sister Leia is introduced and the whole storyline implodes on itself in a hideous wreckage that the film could never save,

It is this kind of 1990's/2000's perception that somehow Leia being Luke's sister is somehow anticlimactic  or wrong----at the time of the theatrical release ---for us kids---the brother/sister link was an unexpected and cool revelation!
None of us saw it coming(Just like Vader's "I am your father").

You have to remember, at the time(1983) ESB had not been seen by audiences for 2-3 years.
In 1983, ESB was not on video/laserdisc.

It is probably half the reason why we did not remember Leia quickly kissing Luke on hoth!

2-3 yrs is a long time(for kids it is effectively a lifetime).

So Yoda's ESB's  "there is another" was pretty much forgotten by 1983!!(ok --personally for me-----maybe the storybook/novel included it--which I did not read or have)

But hopefully you get my point.

 no matter how it was tackled--oh well, just enjoy the fireworks. At least the final quarter with Luke and Vader was well done though. Those scenes are as good as anything in ESB, but they are sadly inconsistent with the rest of film.

 

Well the Vader/Luke confrontation was the climax----everything else that preceded it was the crescendo leading to this climax----and this film builds that crescendo up superbly by intertwining and synchronizing 3 climactic battles(which was practically unheard of in 83' for a fantasy film).
The emperor was the component that helped create that crescendo.

-Ewoks. As was said, the film revolves around midgets in Disneyland bear costumes who do comedy for thirty minutes and then throw some rocks at stormtroopers, all the while taking only a single casualty that gets his own violin solo to tug at our heart strings.

 

These films imply death(in battle) without showing it or in the case of EPIV show death(i.e the rebels being killed in the death star battle) whilst concealing it---hence why the rebels are inside ships so you can't see their bodies being ripped limb from limb when Vader shoots them down in the trenches.
Interesting if you think about it ----the stuff in EPIV(rebels being killed in DS trench battle)  is more grim than anything that happens in ESB.
But the spectacular image of exploding X/Y-wings obscures this grimness----which is why everyone sees EPIV as an uplifting film.
SW is about restraint and converting grim realities(i.e war) into  theatrical spectacle whilst still conveying a strong political message.This is Lucas's true genius!

Regarding  ROTJ.
From a story telling POV, the Ewoks were not inside vehicles or ships.
Seeing them killed en masse on screen with exploding body parts(from Stormtrooper laser blasts or whatnot) is not what SW is about.

 -Bad dialogue. Despite a couple good quips, the characters don't really have the wit or dimension of even the first film

You are right
They don't have the same dimensions.
They have different and in especially Luke's case---broader and much more mature dimensions in ROTJ for the reasons already explained above.
The quality/style of the dialogue reflects this.

 And sometimes they say too much. One moment in the SpenceEdit that added a lot of dimension to Han was removing the line about the Falcon, "I have a funny feeling like I'm not going to see her again." Instead of saying that we simply see Han looking at the Falcon worried, and we know what he is feeling, we get a private moment with him that no one else sees, and it says a lot about who he is.

Ok---that is a nice touch and an interesting alternative but nothing more.

 

 

    -The Emperor. Even though he has become a classic in a sort of cheesy way, if you consider the trajectory of ESB this seems a let down. This is the guy Vader is so scared of? Freaking Gargamel from the Smurfs? All he does is sit there and goad Luke to turn to the darkside, as though the mere suggestion of it is enough to turn him. If I were Luke I'd kill him just to shut him up, which is what I take it Luke was doing when he brought his lightsaber down on his cackling face.

Lucas did the same thing with the Emperor that he did with Yoda.
Yoda was small but powerful.
The Emperor was also relatively small and old------and powerful!
This is another of Lucas's traits----he does not do the obvious thing and make  (some of)his character's conform to physical stereotypes.

The ending moment is good though, but even then if that's how easy it was to kill him I wonder why Vader just didn't push him down the stairs twenty years earlier

 

That is the same as saying why Vader didn't force choke Luke from his tie fighter in the DS trench in EPIV!
Or why Luke is ecstatic after having just blown up the DS with potentially many innocent prisoners still trapped in cell block 1138!!!!
It is like a pointless parlour game.
These films were never meant to be over analysed or taken (too)seriously.
If you do--you can't enjoy them!

 -Bad locations. This one is being a bit nit picky. But Endor is nothing too interesting. It's clearly California, and the few sand-dunes we see on Tatooine are kinda dull too. The Red wood forests offered some interesting photography possibilities but no such luck.

 

What about the speeder bike chase!---which is a great example of how cinematography can be manipulated  to create an otherworldly, exciting  scene(in the pre-CGI era)

 -Bad cinematography. After the beautiful, gorgeous ESB maybe we got spoiled. But films like this that rely on design have to be lit and framed a certain way, and what we got looked like it was intended for a made-for-TV movie. The first Star Wars had that simple style of cinematography too, but it is infinitely more interesting, and with far smaller a budget. Part of the reason I find ROTJ dull is because its so damn boring to look at. If the writing and directing are going to be mediocre, at least give me something visually interesting--this at least the prequels could do.

 

Well watching a faded to pink print ain't gonna help mate!
Back in 83' it looked vibrant and the Sunny Endor provided a subliminal warmth and optimism to a story that was supposed to end with a happy ending.

Finally...there's just something missing. I don't know what. Maybe its just the sum of the total list of complaints above. But there's just a feeling that isn't there. When the Rebel pilots are rushing to their ships in the Yavin hanger, or when the snowspeeders are rushing out and everyone is trying to leave the Hoth base--somehow, when a giant fish walks into a sparkling clean rebel briefing room and a CG hologram of Endor materialises in the centre, it's just not the same. It's not exciting, even if the advanced graphics and exotic design should make it more interesting. But it's not really.

 

Come on man----these scenes are not meant to be exciting-----these are scenes providing exposition, pure and simple.
Exposition scenes in a war film can usually be quite boring .
1977's A Bridge Too Far is a classic case.

At least  Lucas tried to make them cool to look at!

 You add up all these things: story, character, dialogue, mis-en-scene, entire sequences, cinematography, casting and locations...that's pretty much the whole movie. You can't re-edit that, you have to re-write and re-film from the ground up.

 

Well thankfully it wont have to be.It is fine as is!---opinion is a wonderful thing!

-cut boring scene Some scenes, like on Endor, are not nearly quick enough. But taking a boring scene and cutting it fast doesn't solve anything--you just have a fast.

 

I know what you mean although maybe it was meant to provide a slow down of adrenaline for the audience between the speeder bike chase and the final battle.

If I were to do ROTJ, I wouldn't include a single scene from the actual film, except maybe the conversation between Luke and Vader on the Endor base and the "I am a Jedi" moment. I would throw away the entire film and start over. You probably wouldn't see Tatooine, you wouldn't see Endor, and you wouldn't see a Death Star, and none of the character arcs would be the same either. And with that, you wouldn't have Return of the Jedi, you'd have something totally else, a Sequel to Empire Strikes Back.

That is fair enough mate.

I probably can't change your opinion but I hope I have made you understand my opinions as to why ROTJ is fine as is!

Respect.

Danny_Boy

 

 

 

 

All good points.

twooffour said:

theprequelsrule said:

The Aluminum Falcon said:

Hmm... perhaps the most glaring thing of ROTJ to me about the movie is its lack of grandeur and its wholly inconsistent tone.

I probably would have made Endor a far more exotic planet, maybe filled with unearthly plants... It wouldn't look like Earth's forests.

An aesthetic change I'd make is having Luke have a red lightsaber and Darth Vader have a blue light saber, having retrieved his old lightsaber from the duel on Cloud City. It would be like the "Revenge" poster and also hint at a change in the two characters. Vader going back too good and Luke possibly falling to the Dark Side. It would enhance the reverse symbolism greatly in the end duel... speaking of duels,

Another thing I would have is a double-duel between Obi-Wan and the Emperor and Vader and Luke. As in the early drafts, Obi-Wan would have been resurrected back in the flesh with more power than Vader imagined... equal if not better to the Emperor. The Vader and Luke duel would be lightsabers, as in the movie. On the other hand, the other duel would be using the force... going as far as to shift the environment with the force. It would be somewhat like Scanners...

Speaking of Scanners, I think that ROTJ could have used a better director to fix the wholly inconsistent tone. It would have been nice to have either Croenberg or Spielberg. Croenberg could have provided a much more cerebral ending, while Spielberg could focus on the "family" aspect of the movie, since it's a recurring theme of his movies

I'm sorry my man, but all these ideas are terrible. The irony is that they sound like something that post-1990 George Lucas would approve of. Shifting the environment with the force? Really? Sometimes less is more and The force works much better as a concept when it is something subtle - but that went out the door with ESB.

... a movie where Lucas had very little impact on during its production.

Fail.

It may shock you to learn that not everyone, even those who despise the prequels, believes ESB to be the best of the Star Wars films.

@twooffour: My point is that extensive use of special effects and "superjumping-awesome-ninja-jedi" -  which is what Aluminum Falcon seems to have wanted for ROTJ - make Star Wars worse, not better.

theprequelsrule said:

cthulhu1138 said:

There would be no second Death Star. Instead I would have had an Imperial drydock where warships are being mass produced. It would still be above Endor and the Empire would be mining the moon to death for raw materials.

The whole rescue Han scene would be the same (although less muppety and more Heavy Metal feeling) and would still be sort of light hearted.

Afterward Han and Lando would reconcile their differences aboard the Millennium Falcon after they depart Tatooine

Only when Luke speaks to Yoda it is revealed that Luke only made the rescue plan so convolted was to impress leia with his new found Jedi prowess. Luke realizes he has done wrong after Yoda has died.

When Ben tells Luke about his father he gives him the "certain point of view speech" but asks Luke if he would really have wanted to know.

 

"What would you have done with that information, Luke? Would you have rushed to face him then as you did for your friends?"

 

Ewoks would still be there only because I love the sort of whimsical quality they bring the film what with friendly forest creatures helping to take down a dark sorcerer (Palpatine).

 

And I would have Han and Leia marry before the Alliance briefing scene. Then when Luke shows up he is in shock. This would make the relationship very tense but he finally realizes what he has to do. Be bids Leia goodbye and goes to face his father.

 

just my $0.02

 

This is good.

 Thanks.