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How "original" do you think it is going to be...? (the 2006 GOUT DVD release)

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They claimed it's going all the way back to the original pre-New Hope theatrical releases, so I'm hoping that actually means something.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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lol why is everyone so worried about covering up Oola??

Isn't she still exposed on the 2004 dvd? Anyway according to LFL it is the ORIGINAL theatrical, sans-Episode IV, and I imagine there will have been some minimal restoration done but it will probably still look uglier than we want.

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--James Cameron, Entertainment Weekly, April 2010

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I want it "ugly." I don't want anything but a very minimal visual cleanup to get rid of excessive grain and age. But I want all the matte lines, all the transparancies, and all the garbage mattes still there. And those aren't nearly as apparent as they were in the 2004 DVDs because the picture was cleaned up so much that the flaws became obvious. If they're true in saying the picture won't be as good as the 2004 DVDs, then I'll be happy. But they shouldn't try to remove anything. If I get these DVDs, and the rancor's matte line is gone, I will be pissed because that will not be the original version.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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oh so that's why I could see mattes around those ships that i didn't see pre-2004! They cleaned it up too good. heh, I didn't think that was possible, but it looks lik it is. I guess after reading gaffers comments, I'd like the thing cleaned up minimally for grain and age. Leave the rest alone. The only other thing would be color. Make sure that the color and resolution are right.
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Yeah, exactly. I never noticed the garbage mattes around the TIE fighters (or even knew what that term meant until I took Film Editing) until I watched the 2004 DVDs. I can't see them in any other so-called "inferior" version. Don't get me wrong. I don't want them removed. It just seems pretty silly how much George wants his definitive vision and fix up the special effects that he felt didn't live up to his expectations, but he made his "flaws" more obvious in the process. I want the comfort of knowing they're there, but I don't want them as obvious as they were in the DVDs, because that's not how they looked in the original release either.

EDIT: Plus, like I said in another thread, the less they try to "fix", the less chance there will be of them screwing up and getting us pissed off.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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they've never done anything about oola's boobas, i'd be very surprised if they started with this release.

EDIT: you and i are of one mind, gaffertape

huzzah for archival THEATRICAL OT!!!
it is our duty to preserve star wars history...

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Glad to hear it, Dark Lord. ^_^

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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I voted cleaned up but uncut because that's what Spielberg did with the original version of E. T. The terrorist line was reinstated (it was actually censored for the first video release) and the guns were there. But the picture looked the cleanest, colors were vibrant, not murky and washed out. The matte lines around the flying bikes as well as the mismatched contrast was fixed however.

It should be noted that unaltered scenes in the official dvd's had similar fixes (Luke falling down Cloud City shaft, cockpit view into space, rancor, speeder bikes in Jedi). I'm fine with that because those things weren't really supposed to be there, they ocurred during compositing, and fixing that is like doing a better transfer. It also gives the old pre cgi effects more credibility because then they don't look so obvious to spot.

Take back the trilogy. Execute Order '77

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I voted no cleanups, no changes because I want to see the current condition of the elements. I also don't want them to "crunch" the black levels like they did on the 2004 DVDs.

Princess Leia: I happen to like nice men.
Han Solo: I'm a nice man.

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I personally don't think Lucas is going to do any cleaning or restoration. That's what the "Saga" versions of the OT are for. Think about it... he says the original versions no longer exist (He doesn't count them, he means), so why bother with them? The SE versions and anything post are redesinged to fit into the 6-film saga, thus, the "Saga" versions of the OT will be the ones to continually be tweaked. All we'll get is some general upkeep to wipe away some grime, and he'll slap it into production. Not a rush job, but not a full restoration.

Personally, the only thing I actually actively liked (I didn't *mind* the rest, but I certainly didn't see any of it as necessary) about the SOT (Saga Original Trilogy) was the FX cleanup, and the new CG ship material for the Battle of Yavin, as the original motion-control work, although great for it's time, is a lot more dull compared to the SOT Battle of Yavin. I loved seeing the matte lines around the Rancor completely gone; it was a real pleasure as an FX buff. But those stupid garbage mattes around the ships were atrocious!

So, I only think we're getting "Pristine," not "Cleaned up," because I take "Cleaned up" to mean effects improved also. But I would LIKE to have the FX improvement of the SOT w/ the new Yavin battle footage, though I accept it ain't happening.

I can live with 80% of the SE additions. I even like the PT (overall). But not releasing the OOT in respectable condition? That's unacceptable.

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Why would you want FX cleanups on the originals?! Like you said, isn't that what the so-called "Saga" edition is for?

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Because as I said before, I'm an FX buff. I'm not saying don't release the original cuts, they need to be released for those who grew up with them and for preservation, as well. I was merely expressing what my ideal OT would be. Good FX work helps keep me "in" the film. When CG isn't obvious, I enjoy it. And the only CG from the SE that worked was the outer-space/vehicle footage, really. Ideally, I like model-work and digital compositing to make things as realistic looking and clean as possible. Matte lines have always irked me and drawn my eyes right to them, in effect. Having an eye for FX can really suck. I was very very pleased at the fine matte line removal from the Rancor scene in ROTJ, but I was appauled at the shoddy Lightsaber "restoration."

Besides, FX cleanup doesn't mean screw it up by adding new elements. I'm not talking about adding anything. Removing matte lines and making the snowspeeder cockpits solid doesn't hurt the film at all.

I can live with 80% of the SE additions. I even like the PT (overall). But not releasing the OOT in respectable condition? That's unacceptable.

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I'm not saying it necessarily hurts the film, but, in my opinion, it keeps it from being the original versions, which is what they're claiming them to be. I'm enjoy special effects too, and the redone Battle of Yavin wasn't bad, and the removed matte line on the rancor was impressive-looking, but I simply want the movies to be the way they originally were, and removing those matte lines, and filling in those transparencies are changes, pure and simple. And if this release is going to live up to its hype of "groundbreaking but dated," then they'd better have them.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Well, with all due respect, I don't work for Lucasfilm, so I don't see why my expression of personal preference should trouble you, because it seems like it is. You're correct, any correction keeps them from being the original versions, that's why they're being released unmolested. Although, I'd certainly accept a purely FX cleaned version as original, without any CG or new shots added.

I can live with 80% of the SE additions. I even like the PT (overall). But not releasing the OOT in respectable condition? That's unacceptable.

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Sorry if I came across the wrong way. Your opinion doesn't bother me. It just shocked me when you stated that you'd accept and encourage them on what's supposed to be an original theatrical cut, which, in my opinion, defeats the purpose. I'm certainly not trying to add to the body count that the past few days here has mowed through. Our opinions of what we want just differ. And that doesn't bother me if it doesn't bother you.

EDIT: The only thing that does trouble me is worrying that Lucasfilm might also consider cleaned up FX to not be straying off from "original" and feel obliged to "fix" it.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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I guess this is where the rifts between the ideologies of OOT fans start to take shape...

I have always been in favour of FX cleanups, etc. - a "de-assified" Special Edition if you will - without all the story/characterisation changes. For instance, getting rid of garbage mattes on TIE Fighters and matte-lines in snowspeeder cockpits, but without the torture of CGI Jabbas, distracting extraneous (and annoying) musical numbers, etc. But having said that, from what I've seen on the Preservation Boards, perhaps this kind of endeavour is best left to people outside of LFL. It seems that LFL is in favour of weird RGB settings and other corner-cutting "clean-up" techniques. If we do get the raw source material on DVD, it would be a world of help to all those preservation efforts out there - or would it defeat the purpose?

Perhaps another theory can be formulated - maybe they'll release the bare-bones OOT this time around, and save a cleaned up OOT for next time?
MTFBWY. Always.

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If the special edition had simply been that, I wouldn't be nearly as upset. It still wouldn't be the original version, though, which is what we all claim to want. Hey, I'd be all for it if he wanted to release a "cleaned-up" version next, as long as I get what I've been waiting for all this time. However, I won't be buying that version. These DVDs are the last Star Wars trilogy purchases I'll be making no matter what format comes out in my lifetime, and the only way George can get me to buy them again after this is to break into my house and smash them with a hammer and keep me from finding out it was him who did it. ^_^

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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I guess I don't quite understand the stuff about the fx. I personally wouldn't mind things either way. Just as long as there are no '97 SE changes, or some sort of "my original vision" type changes, I'll be happy.
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I consider FX cleanups (which include replacements because a lot of them were) to be '97 SE changes (because, duh, that's when they were implemented) and "original vision" crap because that's why he did it. He didn't feel the original effects were good enough. They're changes. And I don't want them. Yes, you can have them, some of them look nice, but they don't belong in the originals. Pure and simple.

Hooray for matte lines! Matte lines for 2006! Re-elect garbage mattes! Transparencies as running mate!

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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In the interests of all concerned, I think it would be best if the forthcoming release is the Gaffer Tape style originals, matte lines and all. That way, the uber-purists like Gaff will be happy, and everyone else can persuade Darth Editous to do a cleaned-up effects version.

However, I think there is a clear difference between improved digital compositing and the other SE changes. No-one wanted garbage mattes to be visible in '77 and removing them does not constitute a change in the same way the other SE additions do. It would just be using modern technology to acheive the effect that really was originally intended. If the '06 editions are original in every other way but have better compositing, I will be perfectly happy.
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Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
They're changes. And I don't want them. ...they don't belong in the originals. Pure and simple.

I agree fully.

Original means 1977. Original happens only once on a timeline - not every few years, not after only a few alterations, not if it's hardly noticeable, not if most people don't mind it. The moment a single change is made, it's no longer original and shouldn't be referred to as such.

The fans that dig all the changes have a myriad of versions to choose from and watch. All we're asking for on this board - all we've ever asked for - is to be able to have a copy of the original version of the film we watched as kids. The version we want is the easiest one to give us. The version we want has been sitting on a shelf somewhere for 29 years. Nothing has to be done to it. No editing and re-editing, no color matching, no sound re-recording, no computer generated alterations, no added music, no teams of technicians, no story changes, no specialty packaging, nothing.

We're really not asking for much.



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Ah, I'm so glad Anchorhead has come back!

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: Anchorhead
Nothing has to be done to it. No editing and re-editing, no color matching, no sound re-recording, no computer generated alterations, no added music, no teams of technicians, no story changes, no specialty packaging, nothing.
I agree with you here, which is why I opened my last post by saying I think the untouched version should be the one released.
The moment a single change is made, it's no longer original and shouldn't be referred to as such.

However, by this rationale, you would not be able to watch Star Wars on home video at all, you'd have to get a 35mm or 70mm projector and a print, as the process of transferring to video inherently includes "changes". The "original" didn't have NTSC (or PAL or any other video standard) resolution. Different formats reveal the compositing more or less than each other - it is much more visible on video than on prints, for example. I am not trying to be obtuse about this - I'm just saying that there is no hard definition of "original" and one draws the line arbitrarily, to some extent. I support the release of a wholly untinkered transfer, as I said. I just meant that new compositing (of the original '77 elements only) wouldn't bother me.
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To be perfectly frank I can't understand why anyone would want to have garbage mattes still there in the picture. I am not old enough to have seen the films in the theatre initially, but I am certain that no one ever saw them at that time; my dad says he sure as hell never did. They were never supposed to be seen, and are simply a glitch that becomes visible when the picture is transferred to a home format. I find them distracting and irritating now that I've noticed them, and would much prefer they not be there. I have the 2004 dvd's to thank for having seen them in the first place, because I never noticed them at all until then. Unfortunately, I can see them on my old versions now too.

Honestly, would you rather be able to believe the effects you're seeing onscreen are something real that is actually happening, or be reminded that it is a model in front of a bluescreen by a box around it? To me there's no question. I don't want the new versions to have any revisionist changes whatsoever, I'm adamant about that, but simply recompositing is like cleaning up the picture to get what was there originally to look as good as it can. I have no problem with that; in fact I prefer it, as long as it is done right.