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“How is that possible?”

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I hate this line.  I think the original dialog makes so much more sense.  Especially when you consider the question often asked, “Why would they put Luke with the Larses if they were trying to hide him from Vader?”  They weren’t.

This is how I like to figure it:

When Sidious told Vader that Vader had killed Padmé, it wasn’t part of a plan to keep him in the dark (no pun intended) about the existence of his offspring.  It was just to cause him the greatest emotional pain possible, which completed his journey to the Dark Side.

The Queen of Naboo dying during childbirth is a difficult story to keep off the cover of the supermarket tabloids.  (I choose to ignore the ridiculous bit about making her corpse look like she’s still pregnant when buried.  What, like they know Sidious lied to Vader, and they decide to conspire with Sidious to maintain the deception?  If Adywan ever takes on ROTS, maybe he can fix that.)  The next time Vader is in the checkout line he realizes that he has been lied to.  (He’s doesn’t go, “OMG, I can’t believe my master lied to me!”  He knows that’s how Sith Lords work.)  So he knows he has a kid out there somewhere, and decides to find out what happened to that child.

The child is not difficult to find.  It’s a boy, and his name is Luke.  The Larses are taking care of him, and Obi-wan is also nearby, looking out for him.  He’s in good hands, may the Force be with him. Vader decides to leave him where he is.  He may hate Obi-wan, but he wants the best for his son, and realizes that Obi-wan also cares about Luke, so he lets Obi-wan be so that he can watch over Luke.  The last thing he wants is for his son to follow in his footsteps and become a Sith Lord, driven completely by rage and hate.  It’s not a fun way to live.  He’d rather Luke have a good, normal life, far away from the world of Sith Lords and Jedi.  He may even meet with Obi-wan to make sure they’re on the same page about that, and they are.  That’s why Obi-wan lives a stone’s throw from Luke for twenty years and never mentions a word about the Force or lightsabers to him until he needs help on his mission to Alderaan.

Vader does not know, nor have any reason to suspect, that Luke has a twin.

Sidious doesn’t interfere.  Luke will not be brought up to know the Force, and that’s good enough.  Sidious and Vader are a team, and killing your teammate’s son for no good reason is not good for teamwork.

Twenty years later, Vader is chasing an X-wing across the Death Star, and recognizes, “The Force is strong with this one.” Then, boom.

The next time Vader is in the checkout line, he sees a cover story about Luke Skywalker, the Rebel who fired the shot that destroyed the Death Star.  He thinks, “Oh, crap.  This is not good.  Not good at all.  We can’t have him out there becoming a Jedi and fighting against Sid and me.  I’d better go get him.  I’ll get him and turn him to the Dark Side.  At least, I hope I can turn him, because if he won’t turn, I’ll have to kill him, and that would really suck.”  So he sends out probes all over the galaxy looking for Luke, and discovers him on Hoth.

Not long after, he gets a call from his master.

“Hey, V-Man.  I was just at the grocery store, and you’ll never guess who’s all over the tabloid covers!”

“Yeah, I know.  Luke.”

“We can’t let him become a Jedi.”

“No shit, Sherlock.  Don’t worry, I’m on it.  I don’t have him yet, but I will soon.  Then we’ll turn him to the Dark Side.”

“You realize, of course, that if he doesn’t turn, we’ll have to kill him.”

“Yes, I realize that.  *Sigh.*  We still on for Poker on Tuesday?”

“You bet.  (Get it?)  See you then.  May the Force be with you.”

 

Time is running out for the Rebels. Antilles upcourt to Skywalker. He’s being paced by Darth Va— the bone-jarring pick by Solo! He came out of nowhere! Skywalker’s open from way outside, he launches at the buzzer... Good! It’s good! The Rebels win on a sensational buzzer beater by Luke Skywalker! Let’s take another look at that last shot. He just does get it off in time. Wow, what a shot. That’s why they call him Luke Legend.

 

That may be the most exciting battle I have ever been privileged to broadcast. Certainly the most dramatic finish. We’ll get you an update on the Artoo Detoo injury situation in just a moment. Right now let’s go courtside where SuperShadow is waiting with Chewbacca.

 

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The New Emperor hologram and vader dialog from the 2004 version is painfully lame it makes the scene "too talky" and ruins the plot of the original version of the film, and ruins the mysteriousness of the emperor.  And Clive Revill's voice was superior anyway, just cause 3 years later he got a cheaper option in a theater actor in Mcdiarmid does not excuse ruining a good film, and the emperor in jedi was way better than the hammy bad awful portrayal of the prequels.

The new scene makes it look like Vader is lying to the emperor and already knows about Luke and keeping it from him, laughably bad considering in 1977 darth vader was not even lukes father and not even til the end of empire in 1980, and the truth was not discovered until 1983, vader could just as have easily have been lying.

It is just as bad as adding an actor into the end of return of the jedi who was 2 years old in 1983, Hayden Christensen.  He does not belong in a film made and released of that era, neither do the painfully obvious and extremely dated 90's special defects.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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 (Edited)

Oh, I get it now.

 

EMPEROR: We have a new enemy, the young Rebel who destroyed the Death Star. I have no doubt this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker.

VADER: How is that possible?  Anakin Skywalker has no offspring.

VADER: How is that possible?  He was living on the planet farthest from the bright center of the universe, Owen and Beru were keeping him down on the farm, he knew nothing of the world around him and had never even heard of the Force.  Then within two days he had come out of nowhere, showcased Jedi skills, and forever changed the course of Galactic history by DESTROYING THE FREAKING DEATH STAR!!!  How the fuck did that happen to us?!!

EMPEROR: He could destroy us.

VADER: He’s just a boy.  Obi-wan can no longer help him.

 

See?  Makes much more sense now.

 

Time is running out for the Rebels. Antilles upcourt to Skywalker. He’s being paced by Darth Va— the bone-jarring pick by Solo! He came out of nowhere! Skywalker’s open from way outside, he launches at the buzzer... Good! It’s good! The Rebels win on a sensational buzzer beater by Luke Skywalker! Let’s take another look at that last shot. He just does get it off in time. Wow, what a shot. That’s why they call him Luke Legend.

 

That may be the most exciting battle I have ever been privileged to broadcast. Certainly the most dramatic finish. We’ll get you an update on the Artoo Detoo injury situation in just a moment. Right now let’s go courtside where SuperShadow is waiting with Chewbacca.

 

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My question is who actually recorded the titular line? Same with "Alert my Star Destroyer to prepare for my arrival" (deleted dialog from ANH my butt).

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RoccondilRinon said:

Somehow, all the menace is removed from Palpatine's character once you start referring to him as "Sid".

 lol

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 (Edited)

 

 

Time is running out for the Rebels. Antilles upcourt to Skywalker. He’s being paced by Darth Va— the bone-jarring pick by Solo! He came out of nowhere! Skywalker’s open from way outside, he launches at the buzzer... Good! It’s good! The Rebels win on a sensational buzzer beater by Luke Skywalker! Let’s take another look at that last shot. He just does get it off in time. Wow, what a shot. That’s why they call him Luke Legend.

 

That may be the most exciting battle I have ever been privileged to broadcast. Certainly the most dramatic finish. We’ll get you an update on the Artoo Detoo injury situation in just a moment. Right now let’s go courtside where SuperShadow is waiting with Chewbacca.

 

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I don't think Vader knew before sometime between IV and V. Contrary to what the prequels may lead one to believe it's a big galaxy and I don't think Coruscant tabloids care about Naboo.

The problem is if Vader had found Obi-Wan he'd prolly have tried to take revenge on him no?

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I don't think Vader knew before sometime between IV and V. Contrary to what the prequels may lead one to believe it's a big galaxy and I don't think Coruscant tabloids care about Naboo.

The problem is if Vader had found Obi-Wan he'd prolly have tried to take revenge on him no?

Why is there no delete post button :/

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BmB said:

The problem is if Vader had found Obi-Wan he'd prolly have tried to take revenge on him no?

Not necessarily.

First of all, as I said above, if Vader cares about his son's welfare — which, despite being a Sith Lord, I believe he does — there is some value to letting Obi-Wan live.

Second of all, how much more revenge does he need?  The Jedi have been wiped out.  Vader himself personally slaughtered all the younglings at the temple, and Obi-Wan was no doubt close to many of them.  The once great Jedi Master is now damned to live out the rest of his life as a sad old hermit on this pathetic rock called Tattooine.  Isn't that enough?

 

Time is running out for the Rebels. Antilles upcourt to Skywalker. He’s being paced by Darth Va— the bone-jarring pick by Solo! He came out of nowhere! Skywalker’s open from way outside, he launches at the buzzer... Good! It’s good! The Rebels win on a sensational buzzer beater by Luke Skywalker! Let’s take another look at that last shot. He just does get it off in time. Wow, what a shot. That’s why they call him Luke Legend.

 

That may be the most exciting battle I have ever been privileged to broadcast. Certainly the most dramatic finish. We’ll get you an update on the Artoo Detoo injury situation in just a moment. Right now let’s go courtside where SuperShadow is waiting with Chewbacca.

 

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I think you are ascribing too much compassion to the dark lord of the sith here.

Considering the last they saw of each other I'm sure he would have tried to take revenge, then scoop up the boy and train him for the dark side to help him overthrow the Emperor. Had he known.

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My irritant with the scene is that the Emperor SOUNDS nothing like does in ROTJ.  In Jedi he speaks at a faster rhythm with more inflections in his voice.  This goes the same for Ian McDiarmid's prequel performances as Sidious.  They sound completely different.  There are very few brief moments where he's approaching that, but after he makes the full reveal in ROTS, he talks about one-quarter speed just to sound more intimidating (which I don't think he pulls off).

The Emperor just seems more devilish to me in Return of the Jedi.  He actually comes off as deceitful, manipulative, cunning, and sinister.  He personifies evil, and his presence alone is frightening.  I could see Anakin being more easily seduce to the Dark Side by the Emperor in ROTJ than the hammy, and often, cringably acted Palpatine we got in the prequels.

-NJM

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BmB said:

I think you are ascribing too much compassion to the dark lord of the sith here.

Considering the last they saw of each other I'm sure he would have tried to take revenge, then scoop up the boy and train him for the dark side to help him overthrow the Emperor. Had he known.

Not so much compassion as obsession.

I know that what I'm suggesting isn’t what Lucas intended and isn’t consistent with the EU, but it would make sense to me.

What drove Anakin to the Dark Side in the first place was his obsession to protect Padmé. When Padmé dies giving birth to his son, I can easily see that obsession being transferred to Luke. So he becomes obsessed with protecting Luke.

Logically, there are four possible outcomes for Luke:

(1) Luke learns the Force, uses it for good, becomes a Jedi and fights against the Empire.

(2) Luke learns the Force, uses it for evil, succumbs to the Dark Side, and becomes a creature like his father who knows nothing but rage.

(3) Luke doesn't learn the Force, and lives the life of an ordinary man.

(4) Luke dies.

Vader wants to protect Luke the way he wanted to protect Padmé, so (3) is by far the preferred outcome. He allows Luke to live with the Larses, and he allows Obi-Wan to watch over him (but not to get too close to him).  Obi-Wan also wants Luke to be OK, so he watches over Luke from a distance as a “crazy old hermit,” but doesn’t befriend Luke lest Luke learn about and become too interested in the Force, and thereby invite the attentions of Vader and Palpatine.

Then the events of ANH occur.  Obi-Wan decides to teach Luke about the Force.  He knows that by doing so he is putting Luke in great danger, but does it because the galaxy needs him.

Outcome (3) having been eliminated, outcomes (1), (2), and (4) remain as possibilities.  Vader, because of his loyalty to the Emperor / Empire / Sith / Dark Side / self, rules out (1), leaving only (2) and (4) as acceptable outcomes, and (2) preferred to (4).  This is when Vader determines that he must turn Luke or, failing to turn him, destroy him.

 

Time is running out for the Rebels. Antilles upcourt to Skywalker. He’s being paced by Darth Va— the bone-jarring pick by Solo! He came out of nowhere! Skywalker’s open from way outside, he launches at the buzzer... Good! It’s good! The Rebels win on a sensational buzzer beater by Luke Skywalker! Let’s take another look at that last shot. He just does get it off in time. Wow, what a shot. That’s why they call him Luke Legend.

 

That may be the most exciting battle I have ever been privileged to broadcast. Certainly the most dramatic finish. We’ll get you an update on the Artoo Detoo injury situation in just a moment. Right now let’s go courtside where SuperShadow is waiting with Chewbacca.

 

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No offence, but I think this is all bullsh*t, I don't like the prequels and I hate the idea of adjusting the OT to match with them. If the prequels were never made or were made with more thought of matching the originals (which is the way it should have been not vice versa) we could think that Vader became evil by choice, out of lust for power, not because he was lame. And we could think that he never knew that this woman he once raped had a son (or, as we sadly later learn, twins). But then, when he chases Luke in the Death Star trench and he feels that "the force is strong with this one," which must have been pretty rare in the dejedied galaxy, and later hears that this boy's name is Skywalker he can surely add two and two together. But I think the theory that he'd known all along and even knew where Luke and Ben were is totally off the track and can only be thought of because of the inconsistencies the f*cking prequels created...

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But I thought this was pretty funny and that it would be much more consistent with the prequels:

 

cap said:

...gets a call from his master.

“Hey, V-Man.  I was just at the grocery store, and you’ll never guess who’s all over the tabloid covers!”

“Yeah, I know.  Luke.”

“We can’t let him become a Jedi.”

“No shit, Sherlock.  Don’t worry, I’m on it.  I don’t have him yet, but I will soon.  Then we’ll turn him to the Dark Side.”

“You realize, of course, that if he doesn’t turn, we’ll have to kill him.”

“Yes, I realize that.  *Sigh.*  We still on for Poker on Tuesday?”

“You bet.  (Get it?)  See you then.  May the Force be with you.”

 

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Hmm, I'm not sure about the "caring for Luke's well being" part. Seems to me that he wants a disciple for himself and if he brings Luke in too soon, he'd likely end up as Palpatine's disciple. Vader needed the chance to get Luke on his own to play the "I'm your father" card.

Let the Lars' take care of the toilet training. He'll remember him when he's old enough to be useful.

"Reality leaves a lot to the imagination." – John Lennon

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Lord__Vader, I'm so with you.  George's biggest problem is that he puts this entire HUGE saga in front of him, and keeps changing what he wants to do with it each time he makes a new film.  In ESB, George puts in the line about "there is another."  Did he really intend for it to be Leia?  Maybe, maybe not, but come ROTJ, he's gotta tie this thread up somehow, so he's stuck with a convenient answer.  If he intended for them to be siblings from the start, and was committed to that idea, I don't think he'd have had all the smooching and such between them.  In ROTJ, Obi-Wan says it was him who found and trained Anakin on his own accord, but come TPM, it's now some new guy named Qui-Gon who finds him, and decides Anakin should become a Jedi.  Obi-Wan is opposed to doing this, and only succumbs out of a dying declaration (which could be inferred as a momentary 'mind trick' considering Qui-Gon's hand gesture).  Mysteries are brought up in AOTC, and George says it'll be explained in the next film.  He gets to the next film, and decides he procrastinated on developing the storyline and character arcs, so, he now has to forget about all those other loose ends.  In ANH & ROTJ, Obi-Wan mentions all these little details about who Anakin was as a friend, a person, and a Jedi along with things about Owen Lars, and so forth.  Come the prequels, not a word of this is actually true.  Obi-Wan wasn't "amazed" at how strongly the Force was with Anakin at first.  Instead, he was troubled by it, and viewed the child as a danger.  In ROTJ, Leia says she remembers images and feelings about her mother.  Now, one could infer that maybe this is a hint at her Force sensitivity since Jedi can see the past and future along with strong emotions, but in ROTS, her mother dies just after she is born.  Luke's more atuned to the Force than Leia, and he has no knowledge or memory of Padmé Amidala.  So, that perspective doesn't hold up to much scrutiny.

I get that, at first, Lucas didn't know if he'd ever finish his entire saga, but after a point, he should've sat down and mapped everything out.  These films should've been carefully orchestrated and plotted out so that all things could've had satisfying conclusions and resolutions.  The problem is, George doesn't like writing scripts, he doesn't enjoy working with actors, and at times, isn't that clear minded of a director.  He has a general idea of what he wants, but can't really put it all together as a complete package at the forefront.  With something this large, it really requires extensive pre-planning in the script development stage.

Altering the OT to match the PT clearly shows that George has just been making it up as he went along, and never really knew what he wanted to do with the entire saga arc.  It is quite sad to think about it.

This altered dialogue is just another example of what I'm talking about.  They could've had Ian McDiarmid running the exact same dialogue that Clive Revell did before, but instead, Lucas HAS to change things around for no reason.  Also, it's been three years since the Battle of Yavin - the Emperor and Vader haven't mentioned the details of who or how the Death Star was destroyed?  After three years, I'm sure the name Luke Skywalker would've come up in a discussion or two.  It makes no sense that this is the first time the Emperor is having to explain that the "young rebel who destroyed the Death Star is the son of Anakin Skywalker."  We already know that Vader knows about Luke, and who he is.  This dialogue makes it appear that the Emperor just doesn't know jackshit about what's going on.  Took him three years to figure out something that was likely in numerous intelligence reports about the Rebel Alliance?  The Emperor is not an idiot, but this scene now makes him seem like it.

-NJM

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The 2004 version was to re-establish continuity with prequels. But my theory is, Vader knew about his son since ANH and probably didn't want the Emperor to know. Why? Well, like Luke said "I know there's good in you. The Emperor hasn't driven it from you fully. That was why you couldn't defeat me, that's why you won't take me to your master now." The good of Vader/Anakin didn't want his son to turn to the Dark Side or else Luke would become the very thing he was trying to stop. Simple is that.

Sometimes when it comes the SE, I can be veeeery protective. ;)

And cap I like your Emperor calls Vader in the first post. It could make a good Robot Chicken sketch and yes, I do get the Poker joke.

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I remember hearing sometime in the 1990's how they had locked James Earl Jones in a room with a microphone to record all the possible Vader dialog for the prequels and that they had five full minutes of tape.

 

Thing is though, most of that dialog (assuming I heard right) wasn't used.

 

I figure they could have recorded the "alert my star destroyer" line, though I have little trouble believing it was original.

They obviously recorded a few lines for Episode III and a couple lines here occurred.


One could start a whole thread on possible JEJ lines that didn't make it into the movies recorded in that session...

 

"Where is Jar Jar? Is he safe, is he all right?"

"I can't breath in this helmet!"

 

etc.

 

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Kurgan said:

I remember hearing sometime in the 1990's how they had locked James Earl Jones in a room with a microphone to record all the possible Vader dialog for the prequels and that they had five full minutes of tape.

Sounds kinda far-fetched to me. If it's true then if must have happened after some elements in the prequels (like Padmés name and - possibly - her death) had been finalized. 

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I can't believe the insults to Ian Mcdiarmid's acting here, I stopped reading after those.

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Hey, he may have done a great job as the Emperor in ROTJ, and as Palpatine in TPM and AOTC, and he may be a fantastic actor ...

... but he gave one of the worst performances I've ever seen as the Emperor in ROTS and the 2004 addition to ESB.  Just ... awful.

a trolling bantha

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Harmy said:

No offence, but I think this is all bullsh*t, I don't like the prequels and I hate the idea of adjusting the OT to match with them. If the prequels were never made or were made with more thought of matching the originals (which is the way it should have been not vice versa) we could think that Vader became evil by choice, out of lust for power, not because he was lame. And we could think that he never knew that this woman he once raped had a son (or, as we sadly later learn, twins). But then, when he chases Luke in the Death Star trench and he feels that "the force is strong with this one," which must have been pretty rare in the dejedied galaxy, and later hears that this boy's name is Skywalker he can surely add two and two together. But I think the theory that he'd known all along and even knew where Luke and Ben were is totally off the track and can only be thought of because of the inconsistencies the f*cking prequels created...

I understand the board I'm on and everything so I won't argue the merits of the prequels (which I dig... a lot) but this line always bugged me. Any truly creative endeavor a person undertakes will likely grow, expand and change during the process. Zombie84 has made, in my opinion, an irrefutable case that Lucas never had the saga planned out anywhere near as much as he claims. So when he began developing the prequels, his entire conceptualization of Star Wars changed.

Can any of you honestly say you've written something, made a video or done something that requires even a modicum of creative thought that didn't grow and change and head in directions you didn't necessarily have planned out in advance? At least a little bit? Any creative writing I've ever done usually became something more/better/different/other than I thought it would; ditto when I've come back to old ideas.

And again, I'm not arguing the merits of the prequels on this board. I'm also not arguing the OT should've been changed to match them (because the originals are far superior). This is about the creative process and how it works, not the end results of what Lucas has made.

All I really want is each film as it was originally seen and heard in theaters; no fixes, corrections, "improvements" or modifications necessary.

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Making it up as you go along is called...writing.

I never once saw anything where Lucas said he had every detail planned from the beginning, he recently told the creators of "LOST" how he also made it up as he went along.

 

I recall Toilkien retconning things in his stories.