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How Star Wars Episode III failed the Star Wars Saga

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How Star Wars Episode III failed the Star Wars Saga

1. Episode III destroyed the Classic "I am your Father" moment of Episode V.
(Anakin Skywalker becoming Vader should have not been shown before the Classic "I am your Father" moment of Episode V. Episode III should have started years after the so-called "death of Anakin Skywalker by Vader". Episode III should have focus on the new villain "Vader".
A character like General Grievous should not have been in Episode III. General Vader {a pre-version of Darth Vader from an early star wars Episode IV script} should have been in Episode III. The Secret of Vader should have been not told in Episode III.
In Episode I, Jake Lloyd played Anakin Skywalker. In Episode II, Hayden Christensen played Anakin Skywalker. In Episode III, another actor should have been used and not Hayden Christensen again.
It makes more scents for Vader {played by another actor} to be the main villain in Episode III then Anakin Skywalker {played by Hayden Christensen} as the main villain in Episode III, Also it would had not destroyed the Classic "I am your Father" moment of Episode V.)
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2. Episode III destroyed the Classic "Leia is really Luke's Sister" moment of Episode VI.
(Episode III destroyed the Classic "Leia is Luke Sister" moment of Episode VI by showing The birth of Luke and Leia. The Secret of Luke and Leia should have not been told in Episode III.
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3. Episode III conflicts with the classic "Leia remembers her real mother and Luke does not remember her" moment of Episode VI.
(In Episode III, Padme dies right after giving birth to Luke and Leia. This conflicts with the classic "Leia remembers her real mother and Luke does not remember her" moment of Episode VI. The birth of Luke and Leia and Padme's death should have not been linked. Padme should have live for a few years after The birth of Luke and Leia. The best thing would have been not to show The birth of Luke and Leia and Padme's death in Episode III.)
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4. Episode III conflicts with the classic line "Last time we met, I was the Student, Now I am the master" of Episode IV.
(In Episode III, Anakin saw himself as a Jedi master and that conflicts with Episode IV in which Vader states that the last time Obi-Wan and he met, he was a student and not a master. The Anakin of Episode III saw himself as a master and would never call himself a student.)
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5. Episode III messes up the story telling time line.
(Episode II is ten years after Episode I, but Episode III is only three years after Episode II. The time span from Episode II to Episode IV is 22 years. Episode III should have been 11 years after Episode II and taken place after Anakin Skywalker had turned into Vader, after Luke and Leia's birth and after Padme's death. This seems to fit better into the Star Wars Saga and it would have NOT conflicted with the classic "Leia remembers her real mother" moment of Episode VI or destroy the Classic "Leia is really Luke's Sister" moment of Episode VI or destroy the Classic "I am your Father" moment of Episode V. also it would have made it so Episode III could have more emotion depth to the OT like showing an eight year old Leia with her foster parents on her homeworld {Leia's foster parents and her homeworld are destroyed in Episode IV} or an eight year old luke befriending old ben and luke's childhood with his aunt and uncle {old ben, luke's aunt and uncle are killed in Episode IV}. Episode III should have been 11 years after Episode II and 11 years before Episode IV. This is were the Star Wars: The Force Unleashed video game/novel/comic hits the nail on the head and were the Episode III movie fails.)
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6. Episode III is an Opening Crawl story like the other Prequel films.
(Episode III's story was a story best left for the Opening Crawl. We should have not seen the fall of Anakin Skywalker or heard about in Episode III because it conflicts with the story telling of The Star Wars Saga. The truth is that Obi-Wan tells us all we need to know about the fall of Anakin Skywalker in Episode VI and Episode III add very little to that.
Some main things Obi-Wan talk about in the OT are not shown in Prequel films. One thing is "The Clone Wars" and another is "The Dark Times". the Prequel films show only the lead-up to these things. The Story of Episode I did not need to be an two hours film, The Story of Episode II did not need to be an two hours film and The Story of Episode III did not need to be an two hours film. All the Prequel films stories should have been told in Opening Crawls. Episode II should have shown The Clone Wars and not the lead-up to it. Episode III needed to be about "The Dark Times" and not the fall of Anakin Skywalker.
In Episode III, we should have thought that Anakin was killed by a new villain called Vader sometime between Episode II and Episode III. In Episode III, we should have saw "The Dark Times" in which a fully armor and cyborg Vader (not Anakin) hunts down the Jedi and has his last battle with obi-wan before Episode IV.
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Episode III did not fail the star wars saga, George Lucas did.

He was seduced by the darkside of cgi and crappy storylines, sold the new films to the lowest common demoninator to make the highest profit.

 

When star wars was made in 1976-77 they were not even sure it would break even.  Lucas had feared the production would get shut down and the movie would be taken away from him and reedited as had been done on thx 1138 and american graffiti.  That movie was made with an adventurous spirit and a heck of a good story,  the prequels are farts in the wind compared to star wars and empire strikes back.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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Hunter6 said:


5. Episode III messes up the story telling time line.
(Episode II is ten years after Episode I, but Episode III is only three years after Episode II. The time span from Episode II to Episode IV is 22 years. Episode III should have been 11 years after Episode II and taken place after Anakin Skywalker had turned into Vader, after Luke and Leia's birth and after Padme's death. This seems to fit better into the Star Wars Saga and it would have NOT conflicted with the classic "Leia remembers her real mother" moment of Episode VI or destroy the Classic "Leia is really Luke's Sister" moment of Episode VI or destroy the Classic "I am your Father" moment of Episode V. also it would have made it so Episode III could have more emotion depth to the OT like showing an eight year old Leia with her foster parents on her homeworld {Leia's foster parents and her homeworld are destroyed in Episode IV} or an eight year old luke befriending old ben and luke's childhood with his aunt and uncle {old ben, luke's aunt and uncle are killed in Episode IV}. Episode III should have been 11 years after Episode II and 11 years before Episode IV. This is were the Star Wars: The Force Unleashed video game/novel/comic hits the nail on the head and were the Episode III movie fails.)

 

That would have been at least 10 times worse than what we got, truely terrible idea!

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Max_Rebo said:

 

That would have been at least 10 times worse than what we got, truely terrible idea!


Hmm, I disagree. First, I don't see how his idea would have been worse. Second, there's a good chance it could have been better. And, the fact that it doesn't ruin dramatic elements from the original trilogy is a good enough reason to prefer it by default.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Max_Rebo said:

 

That would have been at least 10 times worse than what we got, truely terrible idea!

 No, it is not 10 times worse. It is 11 times Better than EP III.

1.) It does not conflicted with the classic "Leia remembers her real mother" moment of Episode VI or destroy the Classic "Leia is really Luke's Sister" moment of Episode VI or destroy the Classic "I am your Father" moment of Episode V.

2.) Vader is the full real vader from the OT and not Anakin Skywalker played by Hayden Christensen.

3.) It is about the Dark Times inwhich the full real vader from the OT hunts down the jedi and not Anakin Skywalker (vader in name only) played by Hayden Christensen.

4.) No Padme and her bad lines.

5.) Obi Wan is in hiding and on the run from the Empire.

6.) It is a darker time, so  an eight year old Leia would darker character than the eight year old Anakin from EP I. also the eight year old Leia is not the main plot like the eight year old Anakin from EP I was.

7.) In the OT, Old ben and Luke knew each other before EP IV. so having Old Ben stop by (maybe to pick-up his old speeder from Luke's uncle) and running across a young Luke fits into the Saga Story Telling. also the eight year old Luke is not the main plot like the eight year old Anakin from EP I was. plus It is Luke and not Anakin. 

8.) The movie would have X-wings, Tie-Fighters and other ships from the OT and not the PT Ships.

9.) It is more a Prequel to EP IV Idea than Lucas' EP III was. Lucas' EP III was more a Sequel to his EP II than a to a Prequel to EP IV.

10.) Obi Wan battles the full real vader from the OT and and not Anakin Skywalker (vader in name only) played by Hayden Christensen.

11.) No Hayden Christensen in this movie.

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Hunter6 said:

Max_Rebo said:

 

That would have been at least 10 times worse than what we got, truely terrible idea!

 No, it is not 10 times worse. It is 11 times Better than EP III.

 

OK I'll admit I exagerated, and that was possibly the least constructive comment I've ever made so I appologise for that. (just for the record I hate ROTS and it is probably my least favourite of the PT)

 

1.) It does not conflicted with the classic "Leia remembers her real mother" moment of Episode VI or destroy the Classic "Leia is really Luke's Sister" moment of Episode VI or destroy the Classic "I am your Father" moment of Episode V.

True

2.) Vader is the full real vader from the OT and not Anakin Skywalker played by Hayden Christensen.

Is that really a good thing? Seeing Vader in ROTS was the worst bit of the PT, do you really think having a whole movie of him wouldn't completely destroy the character.

3.) It is about the Dark Times inwhich the full real vader from the OT hunts down the jedi and not Anakin Skywalker (vader in name only) played by Hayden Christensen.

well casting is a completely different subject any idea could be ruined by bad casting.

 

4.) No Padme and her bad lines.

Again writing is could be rubbish regardless of the basic plot

5.) Obi Wan is in hiding and on the run from the Empire.

So Obi-wan is in hiding, that really doesn't sound very exciting

6.) It is a darker time, so  an eight year old Leia would darker character than the eight year old Anakin from EP I. also the eight year old Leia is not the main plot like the eight year old Anakin from EP I was.

7.) In the OT, Old ben and Luke knew each other before EP IV. so having Old Ben stop by (maybe to pick-up his old speeder from Luke's uncle) and running across a young Luke fits into the Saga Story Telling. also the eight year old Luke is not the main plot like the eight year old Anakin from EP I was. plus It is Luke and not Anakin.

but still do we really want to see younger versions of the twins, would they serve any purpose to the story or would they just be cameos like boba fett and Chewie in the PT.

8.) The movie would have X-wings, Tie-Fighters and other ships from the OT and not the PT Ships.

does that really matter to a good story?

9.) It is more a Prequel to EP IV Idea than Lucas' EP III was. Lucas' EP III was more a Sequel to his EP II than a to a Prequel to EP IV.

in itself that is neither a positive or negative point, it doesn't effect the quality of the production, and the existing Prequel Trilogy are all Sequels to the originals (despite what lucas claims) because esential elements like the force are only explained in the OT, they were made with the assumption that the audience was already aware of the originals therefore they are sequels, much like Temple of Doom is a sequel as it is clearly intended to be watched after Raiders.

10.) Obi Wan battles the full real vader from the OT and and not Anakin Skywalker (vader in name only) played by Hayden Christensen.

I'd really rather not see this, it is clearly implied in the originals that the last time they fought was when Anakin fell in the lava ("Last time we met, I was the Student, Now I am the master"), so now your just introducing new continuity errors.

11.) No Hayden Christensen in this movie.

again casting is not determined by the idea.

 

The real problem with the idea is what would the story be? all you've specified is a time period, and unfortunately in establish continuity not much is happening during that period, Anakin has already fallen to the darkside and become Vader, the Republic has already fallen to the Empire, the twins are in hidding, their mother is dead and the rebellion has yet to do anything significant as the capture of the Death Star plans was "their first Victory". So all that's really left is the Jedi Purge and watching Vader hunt down Jedi for 2 hours just sound boring.

For me a much more effective way to avoid the continuity errors created by ROTS would be to end the prequels earlier and end on a cliff hanger and then the details of what really happened would be filled in while watching the OT, you would never see Anakin and Obi-wans duel and Vader would only appear in teh OT, but by the end of Episode 6 you would know all the details. This way the PT could focus on Anakin the Hero, the great Warrior.

I principle I think I agree with your intention but I just don't think we need to see Vader before his enterance in Episode 4.

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Max_Rebo said:

2.) Vader is the full real vader from the OT and not Anakin Skywalker played by Hayden Christensen.

Is that really a good thing? Seeing Vader in ROTS was the worst bit of the PT, do you really think having a whole movie of him wouldn't completely destroy the character.

 

Hunter says: In GL's ROTS, it was not the full real vader from the OT, it was Heyden-Vader. In GL's ROTS, It was the not another actor. also GL's ROTS's Vader sucked becuase it is linked to Heyden's Vader and GL's ROTS's Vader first words are "where's Padme". That what I am saying it need to be more a Prequel to EP IV Idea and not a Sequel to GL's EP II. That what I am saying it need to nine years after other Lucas' bad Films.    

3.) It is about the Dark Times inwhich the full real vader from the OT hunts down the jedi and not Anakin Skywalker (vader in name only) played by Hayden Christensen.

well casting is a completely different subject any idea could be ruined by bad casting.

 

Hunter says: I am not talking casting here. I am talking about it been about the Dark Times.  The story I am writing about is years after Anakin Skywalker. Hayden Christensen not playing vader is a side note. 

4.) No Padme and her bad lines.

Again writing is could be rubbish regardless of the basic plot

Hunter says: Ok, I am Sorry and i rewrite that.

4.) No Padme which means none of Portman's bad acting. Portman's bad acting and Christensen's bad acting is one of the things which made the Prequels sucked. I thinking with the full real vader from the OT voice by Old James E. Jones (who is a good actor) with a better story then GL's EP III.  I mainly writing about making a Better plot.  

5.) Obi Wan is in hiding and on the run from the Empire.

So Obi-wan is in hiding, that really doesn't sound very exciting

Hunter says: Obi Wan is in hiding and on the run from the Empire. that really doesn't sound very exciting to you. Yes, the Obi Wan is in hiding is not exciting, but Obi Wan on the run from the Empire is exciting. It means that Obi-wan leaves his hiding planet, in doing so he has to run from and battles the Empire.  

The real problem with the idea is what would the story be? all you've specified is a time period, and unfortunately in establish continuity not much is happening during that period, Anakin has already fallen to the darkside and become Vader, the Republic has already fallen to the Empire, the twins are in hidding, their mother is dead and the rebellion has yet to do anything significant as the capture of the Death Star plans was "their first Victory". So all that's really left is the Jedi Purge and watching Vader hunt down Jedi for 2 hours just sound boring.

For me a much more effective way to avoid the continuity errors created by ROTS would be to end the prequels earlier and end on a cliff hanger and then the details of what really happened would be filled in while watching the OT, you would never see Anakin and Obi-wans duel and Vader would only appear in teh OT, but by the end of Episode 6 you would know all the details. This way the PT could focus on Anakin the Hero, the great Warrior.

I principle I think I agree with your intention but I just don't think we need to see Vader before his enterance in Episode 4.

the Jedi Purge and watching Vader hunt down Jedi for 2 hours is not what I am talking about.

Iam talking about:

the rebellions first battles to stop the Empire before EP IV.

Obi-wan leaves his hiding planet, in doing so he has to run from and battles the Empire. 

The Empire in full war machine mode.

Vader killing the last of the jedi.

Vader battles Obi-wan and ending in which we think Obi-wan is the last to die. (But, Then in EV IV you learn that Obi-wan did not die.)

 

I do not like PT too and think we do not need to see Vader before EV IV also.

But, the prequel have been made and all i'm saying is Ep III should have been Better and truer to the OT.

EP III was the last time to made for a good new prequel star Wars film and it failed

 

 

 

 

 

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also on my younger versions of Luke and Leia idea.

It fits for younger versions of Luke and Leia to have a scene or two in My movie Idea.

Obi Wan/Old Ben is watching over Luke.  

Bail Organa and his Family are apart of the Rebellion.

It is all foreshadowing

I think if it was to be done, then you do not say who Luke and Leia really are and do not make it big thing that thier are in the movie.

all somebody new to star wars would know is that Luke is just Owen's kid. Obi Wan/Old Ben and Owen know each other.  

all somebody new to star wars would know is that Leia is just Bail Organa's kid and Bail Organa is apart of the Rebellion. 

I thought of Luke and Leia in the story after I thought about Owen and Bail in it.

I thought of the ideas of Owen having Obi Wan's old Speeder or Obi Wan needing to use Owen's Speeder or Obi Wan needed Owen to drive him into town.

I thought of the idea of Bail Organa as a spy for the Rebellion in the story and he is giving Obi Wan information on Vader whereabouts.

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also on the Obi-wan is in hiding and on the run the Empire that really doesn't sound very exciting to you.

well, I see it as very exciting like spy fiction thriller like the Jason Bourne Movies and way more exciting than GL's EP III

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 (Edited)

Threads like this one surface all the time. I usually don't even bother with them anymore, but I am kind of bored and posting is slow elsewhere.

The whole point Hunter is making is that the prequels could have been a million times better in any number of ways. Some people have a hard time admitting that, and want to think they are still better than average movies. What the Star Wars prequels and the new Indiana Jones movie suffered from was lazy story telling. I admit, the prequels cause quite a conundrum. Thing's like "Vader betrayed and murdered your father" are a little complicated. We have episodes IV-VI that fit together for the most part seamlessly, they may have their flaws, but they are pretty close to water tight. Now we have to make three more films that take place before this block of original films. The outline of the story is already written, because the original trilogy relied so heavily on its own back story, much of it was mentioned during the course of the OT. So the outline is that there are

  • an ancient order of Jedi protecting and keeping peace within the Republic.
  • But their peace keeping attempts somehow fail and a massive war breaks out that involves the whole galaxy. This war involves cloning to the degree that it is historically labeled "The Clone War".
  • During the course of this war and perhaps the time following it, the Republic fails, the Empire rises, and the Jedi become "extinct".
  • Two men who fought in the Clone War had the names Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker. Obi-Wan was Anakin's master. And Obi-Wan's master had once been a man named Yoda.
  • Anakin was killed by a man named Darth Vader/Anakin was suduced by the darkside and became Darth Vader, which to the Jedi (or at least Obi-Wan) meant that the good man Anakin Skywalker lost the inner struggle between good and evil and was essentially murdered, leaving behind only his evil side.
  • Someone Anakin had managed to make pregnant somewhere along the way gave birth to twins, a boy and a girl. Anakin never knew about this. Obi-Wan did, and decided he needed to hide them from the man who had once been his best friend and commrade.
  • The mother dies somewhere along the way. The twins do not know of each others existence. The girl knew her mother and she knew her living parents had adopted her. The boy lives with his aunt and uncle and knows very little about his real parents, and what he does know are lies meant to protect him.
  • C3PO has a silver leg.
  • Darth Vader was in part responsible for the extinction of the Jedi by hunting down and killing the ones who managed to survive the war.
  • Obi-Wan and Yoda are the only ones who survive Vader's purge. Both moving to remote planets to live as hermets.

I think that is about everything. This is pretty much the mold the prequels had to fit based on information given in the OT. Not that hard right? Somethings like keeping the Vader suprise and the twins reveal is a little tricky, though not even 100% necessary. These things could have been revealed in a way that still made those moments meaningful in the OT.

There are millions of ways this outline could have been made into an amazing story. It is all vague enough that it could have been taken in any number of directions. With this information you could have made a whole seven season TV series. This is some fantastic material to work with. It should not have been hard to built three fantastic films around this framework. But what did we get? We got a guy who has been lead to believe he is the best story teller in the world sitting down with a notebook and lazily scribbling away silly stories that barely fit that framework even while stretching beleavabilty to the breaking point in order to make it almost fit the framework. A little imagination and some more careful thought, and it could have really been great. Instead of three great movies we get things like episode one, because George felt that the real story didn't begin until the third part. I think the most exciting part of Ep. 1 was Obi-Wan and Qui-gon sneaking aroung the Trade Federation ship. Why not just start the series as Obi-Wan and Anakin together. Dialogue between Obi-Wan and Yoda could have presented Yoda's past misgivings about Anakin's training. Didn't need a whole movie devoted to finding Anakin with a very loose action filled plot woven around it. Like I said, lazy story telling.

Now, to the point. This story could have been pulled off in one of millions of different ways, there really is no room for excuses such as, "Well come on, you couldn't honestly expect them to be as good as the OT, right?" Yeah, they could have been. Why not? But the fact is they were not. There are those of us who love them for what they are, and good for you guys. Then there are those of us who constantly lament and think of how much better it could have been. It will never get better, and all you can do is dream, if you enjoy that then it is fine, if not then it might be time to get over it. You still have three really good movies that are really fun to watch, use your own imagination to create the back story, just like we all did for over twenty years before the PT came out.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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I wanted to see 3-PO working on binary load lifters.