Help Wanted: Does anyone have The Good, Bad & Ugly laserdisc audio? — Page 4

djchaseb said:

So are there any ongoing projects working to regrade the 4K version?  Original mono audio as well?

Currently watching the Mondo and it looks great in my opinion, the 4K has nice detail but I'm really having a hard time with the overly yellow look.

I'm planning to regrade the 4k release.

Am I the only one getting confused by all the different versions of this film and all the different mono tracks out there? Can somebody that knows about all these different releases post a quick summary of what versions have what changes to them and how the mono tracks differ for these different versions and where they can be found? All this talk of different cuts/different audio tracks is doing my head in...

From what i've seen of the transfer, a lot of that yellow is meant to be there. The problem is not so much the yellow tint itself but the strength of the yellow tint. This 4k master seems to have a very different colour scheme to the mondo release so short of regrading on a shot by shot basis to recreate the colours of the mondo release, simply removing the excess yellow and correcting the image dynamics with one setting is not going to get it looking exactly like the mondo release, this 4k master has its own look and colours which, not taking into account the extra detail and lovely grain of the 4k remaster, is arguably more natural looking and better overall than the mondo release IMHO.

kk650, I'm happy to break it down for you but it depends on what cut you wish to use for your project. US/International, Italian or English Extended? This info will make it easier to advise on what audio/video sources will be required.

I don't think the goal should be to recreate the colours of Mondo; rather the focus, as you said, should be on removing the blanket yellow and optimizing image dynamics so that it looks...good. The regrade settings you used for your screenshots are already a big step in the right direction.

On page 1 of this thread is a description of my project that I posted on the Sergio Leone Web Board in late 2013. I put my project on hold until the release of the 4K BD. If you're intending to recreate the International cut, then this should help clarify things.

Lil Brutto said:

kk650, I'm happy to break it down for you but it depends on what cut you wish to use for your project. US/International, Italian or English Extended? This info will make it easier to advise on what audio/video sources will be required.

I don't think the goal should be to recreate the colours of Mondo; rather the focus, as you said, should be on removing the blanket yellow and optimizing image dynamics so that it looks...good. The regrade settings you used for your screenshots are already a big step in the right direction.

On page 1 of this thread is a description of my project that I posted on the Sergio Leone Web Board in late 2013. I put my project on hold until the release of the 4K BD. If you're intending to recreate the International cut, then this should help clarify things.

 Your project sounds like exactly what I've been waiting for them to release officially 

djchaseb said:

Your project sounds like exactly what I've been waiting for them to release officially 

So have I! lol

A little status update on my own project "Creating a real mono sound for the 4K MGM Extended edition of GBU":

The current completion is at ca. 40%. There is not only issue of splicing in the extended pieces, but also issues of asynchronity of the mono track (sometimes for single lines) which also get fixed.

And I gotta say, the old gunshots sound so much better!

ilovewaterslides said:

1) Is the Mondo a theatrical version or an extended one?

2) What is the bitrate of the audio tracks on the 98 DVD?

 Neither. There are three versions now:

a) US Theatrical version
b) Italian Theatrical version
c) US Extended Version

The US Extended Version follows the Italian version for most part, however, it uses the US Theatrical version edit of the torture scene as well as of some shots at the end. Here is a comparison between the US Extended and the Italian version: http://www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=624419

2) The AC3 bitrate is 192 kbps 2.0 mono. That's why I am using the LD PCM audio instead (though it is more severely cut).

Lil Brutto said:

kk650, I'm happy to break it down for you but it depends on what cut you wish to use for your project. US/International, Italian or English Extended? This info will make it easier to advise on what audio/video sources will be required.

I don't think the goal should be to recreate the colours of Mondo; rather the focus, as you said, should be on removing the blanket yellow and optimizing image dynamics so that it looks...good. The regrade settings you used for your screenshots are already a big step in the right direction.

On page 1 of this thread is a description of my project that I posted on the Sergio Leone Web Board in late 2013. I put my project on hold until the release of the 4K BD. If you're intending to recreate the International cut, then this should help clarify things.

Well my initial plan was to regrade whatever cut is on the new 4k remaster which I believe is the US extended cut right? The lack of mono track with original sound effects and the different cuts of this film has complicated matters though.

There have been those on my The Good, the Bad and the Ugly release thread on tehparadox asking for a regraded release for the US theatrical cut as well and mono with the original sound effects for both cuts. I would love to be able to make them happy by including a high quality mono track with original sound effects that fits with the US extended cut with the regrade and then see if I can work out how to recreate the US theatrical cut from the 4k transfer and get a mono track with original sound effects that fits that.

It seems that you and TheHutt are the experts on this film, would either of you be interested in working with me to create a regraded US theatrical cut and US extended cut with mono tracks to make everybody currently angry about the official release having the strong blanket yellow tint and lacking mono with original sound effects happy again?

kk650 said:

It seems that you and TheHutt are the experts on this film, would either of you be interested in working with me to create a regraded US theatrical cut and US extended cut with mono tracks to make everybody currently angry about the official release having the strong blanket yellow tint and lacking mono with original sound effects happy again?

I'd be happy to work with you on this. I will post more details on my thoughts on this later when I have more time.

Hi, everyone. I'm kinda new at this, so please excuse me. First of all, I think what you guys are doing is AWESOME! I would love to see a US theatrical cut, just like the 98 DVD. Derived from the new 4k release, or Mondo. While preserving the look of the Mondo release. One cool thing about the US theatrical cut is the way it ends. It just fades to black, and the music just continues to play for almost a full minute. I think this is the best way to end it. Not with credits or anything else on the screen.

kk650 said:

It seems that you and TheHutt are the experts on this film, would either of you be interested in working with me to create a regraded US theatrical cut and US extended cut with mono tracks to make everybody currently angry about the official release having the strong blanket yellow tint and lacking mono with original sound effects happy again?

Well, basically, about the cuts you have to perform to create a US Theatrical Cut, here is a complete analysis:

http://www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=1622

However, you'd have to bear some points in mind:

- the time indexes specified in this comparison are PAL times (25fps), so you'd have to convert them to 23.976fps. Also, mind the difference of the logo lengths.

- The Cut 1 is an oversight during DVD production and should not be there (ie the scene does not need to be cut). This scene was complete in the 1993 LD / 1998 LD.

- The end of Tuco pistol buying scene is faded to black prior to the Grotto scene in the Extended Edition. The US Theatrical version does not have this fade and cuts directly to the soldiers riding through town. No idea how to fix this one.

- The at the end of cut 10 there is some music which is carried over to the next shot in the Extended Edition. In the Theatrical, there is no music at the beginning of the same shot.

TheHutt said:

kk650 said:

It seems that you and TheHutt are the experts on this film, would either of you be interested in working with me to create a regraded US theatrical cut and US extended cut with mono tracks to make everybody currently angry about the official release having the strong blanket yellow tint and lacking mono with original sound effects happy again?

Well, basically, about the cuts you have to perform to create a US Theatrical Cut, here is a complete analysis:

http://www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=1622

However, you'd have to bear some points in mind:

- the time indexes specified in this comparison are PAL times (25fps), so you'd have to convert them to 23.976fps. Also, mind the difference of the logo lengths.

- The Cut 1 is an oversight during DVD production and should not be there (ie the scene does not need to be cut). This scene was complete in the 1993 LD / 1998 LD.

- The end of Tuco pistol buying scene is faded to black prior to the Grotto scene in the Extended Edition. The US Theatrical version does not have this fade and cuts directly to the soldiers riding through town. No idea how to fix this one.

- The at the end of cut 10 there is some music which is carried over to the next shot in the Extended Edition. In the Theatrical, there is no music at the beginning of the same shot.

 Also the cut/fades around the guard post at night before Tuco and Blondie arrive at the mission is difficult to deal with.

In the International cut it fades out to black from the desert after Blondie finds out the name and fades in from black to the mission.

In the extended it fades from the guard post to the mission. No fades to black to make a good cut.

Call Harmy to fix these ones.

TheHutt said:

kk650 said:

It seems that you and TheHutt are the experts on this film, would either of you be interested in working with me to create a regraded US theatrical cut and US extended cut with mono tracks to make everybody currently angry about the official release having the strong blanket yellow tint and lacking mono with original sound effects happy again?

Well, basically, about the cuts you have to perform to create a US Theatrical Cut, here is a complete analysis:

http://www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=1622

However, you'd have to bear some points in mind:

- the time indexes specified in this comparison are PAL times (25fps), so you'd have to convert them to 23.976fps. Also, mind the difference of the logo lengths.

- The Cut 1 is an oversight during DVD production and should not be there (ie the scene does not need to be cut). This scene was complete in the 1993 LD / 1998 LD.

- The end of Tuco pistol buying scene is faded to black prior to the Grotto scene in the Extended Edition. The US Theatrical version does not have this fade and cuts directly to the soldiers riding through town. No idea how to fix this one.

- The at the end of cut 10 there is some music which is carried over to the next shot in the Extended Edition. In the Theatrical, there is no music at the beginning of the same shot.

The shot with the chewing of the cigar was not present both in the 1998 DVD and in the 1993 LD.

The shot with extra waiting for the cannon to fire seems to actually be in the 1993 LD, as I didn't have to extra sync this scene.

The shot of Blondie turning longer around to Tuco (as he rotates his spur) was neither in the 1993 LD nor in the 1998 DVD.

I wouldn't go so far as to judge which shot belongs and which does not. I am also puzzled as to why Leone removed the "Sorry Tuco" bit from the Italian version and kept it in the international one (as it still seems present in the neg).

PDB said:

TheHutt said:

- The end of Tuco pistol buying scene is faded to black prior to the Grotto scene in the Extended Edition. The US Theatrical version does not have this fade and cuts directly to the soldiers riding through town. No idea how to fix this one.

 

The Groto fade can be fixed with the Mondo Blu-ray. The Mission fade would have to be fixed with the old International cut DVD.I agree with you Hutt that the extra gun shot with Blondie should be kept since it appeared in earlier media. Looking at your list Hutt do you think the two, small, extra shots at the end of the movie (Blondie looks anxiously to the bridge and chews on his cigarillo/Blondie waits slightly longer for the cannon to fire) should be kept? They look like small shots that where meant to be in the International cut but were lost somewhere along the way. Going to check the early LD to see if they are there.

 For the hell of it I was looking into what was needed to recreate the International Cut. You can't use the IC DVD to fix the grotto dissolve. The DVD is greatly zoomed, in that scene making it useless.

4K remaster BD/Old International Cut DVD

So you are only left with the Mondo to fix that. The dissolve from the desert to mission can't be fixed with the Mondo. It fades to the guardpost, then fades to the mission similar to the 4K. So it is keep the fade out from the desert and cut to the mission or use the DVD to fix the dissolve. I'm leaning to the first rather then use the DVD.

Edit: The Mondo is zoomed too, making the 4K's framimg interesting

4K remaster BD/Old International Cut DVD

Another problem is the cut from the train leaving the station to Tuco on the train (where Blondie and Angel Eyes meet up with AE's crew). Adding to the problem of the dissolve, the music and train whistle are different in all versions. 

I tossed together this video to show the difference that I'm talking about. This is very rough example (with rough regrade).

1. Desert Scene IC Recreation - 4K (regraded to the DVD)/DVD dissolve/4K(regraded to the DVD)

2. Desert Scene IC Recreation - 4K with 4K dissolve and hard cut to the mission (regraded to the DVD)

3. Train Station IC Recreation - 4K (regraded to the DVD)/DVD dissolve/4K(regraded to the DVD)

4. Train Station IC Recreation - 4K with hard to Tuco on the train (regraded to the DVD)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghEdtmoOtng&feature=youtu.be/

While waiting for the IB tech to get scanned, I quietly resumed work on my project described on page 1 of this thread.

I still need to address the issues with scene transitions that are described above. I intend to use FCP to deal with the transitions, such as fade in the Mission San Antonio scene as per the pre-extended cut version.

Also, since the picture of the 2003 BD is slightly zoomed as compared to the Mondo BD, I thought I'd try splicing in the 4K BD footage. However, after converting the 4K BD to Prores 422 HQ and using it instead of the 2003 BD, I must say it isn't always a better alternative. An obvious reason is the color timing, but the image also tends to "drift" throughout the film as described by Andrea in another thread:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/The-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-4k-nightmare/post/710915/#TopicPost710915

Ultimately, I'll have to decide which MGM source to use for the splice in question.

Lastly, the 1998 MGM LD audio does not sync perfectly with the 98 MGM DVD, which I found a bit surprising. This is even AFTER correcting for the DVD missing the footage of Blondie holstering his pistol. I will have to manually sync the LD audio to the DVD audio at this point.

PDB said:

I tossed together this video to show the difference that I'm talking about. This is very rough example (with rough regrade).

1. Desert Scene IC Recreation - 4K (regraded to the DVD)/DVD dissolve/4K(regraded to the DVD)

2. Desert Scene IC Recreation - 4K with 4K dissolve and hard cut to the mission (regraded to the DVD)

3. Train Station IC Recreation - 4K (regraded to the DVD)/DVD dissolve/4K(regraded to the DVD)

4. Train Station IC Recreation - 4K with hard to Tuco on the train (regraded to the DVD)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghEdtmoOtng&feature=youtu.be/

 That's a cool clip, PDB. Can you send me a link for download?

Here you go Lil Brutto:

Link Removed

I was just goofing around with this since I realized that with recreating the International Cut there are three hard parts: one the Mono soundtrack which TheHutt took care of and second grading the scenes to match, which I'm getting better at since working on Alien. The last is fixing the dissolves and cuts unique to the IC.

I spent my lunch break removing all the scenes from the 4K and splicing in the dissolve to the grotto, the dissolve in the desert and the train station cut from the DVD. I roughly up-scaled those scenes to 1080p. Sadly, those scenes have print damage that the 4K doesn't. So that combined with the lower DVD resolution origins means they will never perfectly match but the re-grade helps. I also removed the ending from the 4K, since the fade to black on the 4K went to the English restoration credits while the music played. I used the DVD for that too since it has "The End" opposed to "Fine" of the Mondo. Basically the only part I could use from the Mondo was removing the Grotto dissolve but at that point might as well use the DVD for everything.

I left in all the minor bits and pieces that TheHutt points out in this thread and his guide:

http://www.movie-censorship.com/report.php?ID=1622

since some were in the LD and some were in the DVD. Otherwise, its basically the International Cut. Just needs to be graded.

Thanks for the download link. 

Will you be making your IC available for others to view once completed?

Oh! One small point still!

There is yet a small difference between the 4K and the International / Italian version. After the scene where Tuco and Blondie share the bounty for the first time (and talk about cutting Blondie's percentage), there is a cut to the next shot of Tuco with a rope on his neck.

This cut has a "spin" in the International and the Italian version; in the 4K, that's just a straight cut without any effects. Don't know how to describe this more exactly... the picture is kinda rotating during the scene change.

Chewtobacca described this difference earlier in this thread:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Does-anyone-have-The-Good-Bad-Ugly-laserdisc-audio/post/707383/#TopicPost707383

Lil Brutto said:

Thanks for the download link. 

Will you be making your IC available for others to view once completed?

 Oh sure. I'll make available to you and people on the OT. Much like you Lil Brutto, its my favorite film and I'd love to watch the version I grew up with again. Once I finish Alien, I will work on it concurrently with Blade Runner (which is a project that will take a while). In testing it seems easy to grade. I would probably grade it to the 98 DVD and tweak it to the 35mm LPP pics that appeared on ebay. I know most would prefer the Mondo but the LPP looked like the old DVD and I like that look. I guess your IB TECH will tell the true tail of how TGTBATU looks.

TheHutt said:

Oh! One small point still!

There is yet a small difference between the 4K and the International / Italian version. After the scene where Tuco and Blondie share the bounty for the first time (and talk about cutting Blondie's percentage), there is a cut to the next shot of Tuco with a rope on his neck.

This cut has a "spin" in the International and the Italian version; in the 4K, that's just a straight cut without any effects. Don't know how to describe this more exactly... the picture is kinda rotating during the scene change.

Good point, forgot about that. I'll have to grab that from the Mondo. Funny thing about that flip, I have been looking at it since Chewtobacca posted about it. It is in some video copies but not in others. For example, it is in the 93 LD:

But not in the 98 DVD (and assuming 98 LD).

I'm not sure about the original Extended English Editions (DVD and BD), I have to check but then it appears in the Mondo and then is missing from the MGM 4K. I'm wondering if maybe that doesn't appear on the ONEG. I'm curious to see if its on Lil Brutto's IB print.

PDB said:

Lil Brutto said:

Thanks for the download link. 

Will you be making your IC available for others to view once completed?

Oh sure. I'll make available to you and people on the OT. Much like you Lil Brutto, its my favorite film and I'd love to watch the version I grew up with again. Once I finish Alien, I will work on it concurrently with Blade Runner (which is a project that will take a while). In testing it seems easy to grade. I would probably grade it to the 98 DVD and tweak it to the 35mm LPP pics that appeared on ebay. I know most would prefer the Mondo but the LPP looked like the old DVD and I like that look. I guess your IB TECH will tell the true tail of how TGTBATU looks.

Thanks!

I'd love to see your version of the IC. You're taking a different approach and I like what I see based on your rough edit. Also, I have no doubt you'll beat me to it. Unfortunately, I don't have the time right now to make meaningful progress with my project. It will likely progress at a snail's pace for the next couple months.