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Has anyone now second guessed the prequels

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I am an OT guy, grew up and loved those movies, and have watched them endlessly. I wasn't totally excited about the prequels when they were announced in the late 90's. I thought TPM was alright, and AOTC was better, but it still was Star Wars so my defenses were up. I always told my friends that Episode III would make it all worthwhile. This movie would be better than ESB & ANH, and it would actually make the whole prequel trilogy better.

I saw ROTS twice opening weekend, and I really liked, but....I don't know, after assessing it through the summer, it just wasn't as great as I thought it would be. Now I'm wondering if it was worth it to make the prequels at all. Overall, I did enjoy ROTS, and it is definitely the best of the prequels, but damnit, it aint a classic. I know that is really having high expectations, but I thought Lucas could make one GREAT prequel.

Instead, we have a sub-par, kiddy, juvenile TPM, a better AOTC, but an awful love story, and the opposite chemistry between Portman & Christenson we had with Harrison Ford & Carrie Fisher. Then you have a really good, or good third movie. If I were to tell you in 1998, "Lucas is going to make 3 more Star Wars movies, one average, one good, and one pretty good, would you want him to film them?"

I am not a prequel basher, I have waited after all 3 to evaluate them, and DAMNIT, I REALLY WANTED TO LOVE THESE MOVIES. The other day, I watched ANH & ESB, and I said to myself, "No prequel even comes to this, what the hell happened to Lucas?" That is when I started having second thoughts.

Should I come to grips that there are 2 awesome Star Wars movies, ROTJ which could have been better in certain parts, and 3 prequels that didn't meet expecations? Or should I somehow wait for the O-OT to come out on DVD, and pretend the prequels never happened, and Darth Vader isn't some love sick wuss, his wife is a mystery, Leia's recollection of her mom still makes sense, The Emperor's mystique is still the same, and the story to me is still about Luke Skywalker. Plus Jar Jar Binks was never invented!!!!!!!!!!!

Someone help me? As C-3PO awfully said in AOTC, "I'm so confused!"
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My friend, you will never come to a completely comfortable spot with the prequels. I have made my peace with that fact. You will continue to go back and forth on them. Your emotions will range from the "meh, I guess they aren't that bad" to "good God WHY-OH-WHY...Jar Jar...whiny Anakin...ruined Fett mystery...3PO AOTC lines...NOOOO!!!!!". I have been round and round the bend and have found that there will never be a time where I will have formed any concrete opinion on them other than that... the Original Trilogy was SO MUCH BETTER. The prequels (and the SE and SSE for that much) just are what they are. A fascinating glimpse into how much a creative person's vision can change over a period of thirty years. When you think of it like that, it really isn't that hard to get a hold on. Think of the person you are now, and then think of the person you were ten years ago (in some cases, I realise this might take some back to early childhood, but...). Multiply that change three fold. People change. And I guess, thinking that way right now... maybe in thirty years we will all look at the prequels and say to ourselves, "You know, I finally think I understand what he was doing". Either that or, "meh, I guess they aren't that bad".

I felt the same way about Episode III. Granted I understood that no amount of plot, pacing or character resolution would be able to erase some of the over the top attrociousness of Episode's I or II. But I figured that III would be the one that brought it all full circle and that if anything it would put the prequels to rest with a sense of relief that they weren't a completely wasted opportunity. I watched that thing four times opening weekend. And I felt really, honestly, no different than I did when I got done absorbing Eps I and II. I admit that I thought this was the best of the three. But there was really nothing there that made me feel that this episode was made by any other creative individual other than the one that made the first two. It felt the same. There were the moments of over the topness that made me cringe. There were the wooden performances (with very solid sequences thrown in here and there). The moments of "OK, ignore that", that as a post-Episode I-Star Wars fan I have grown to understand and become comfortable with. It was all there. To me, that doesn't make me a "prequel hater" or a "Lucas basher". It just makes me a realist. And the real truth is that the prequel trilogy and original trilogy are just totally and so completely different sets of films that to tie one to the other by anything other than charaters or plot history takes a large and rather forgiving flight of imagination. Hell, the fact that so many OT references were merely tossed into Episode III is testiment enough to the fact that even George himself knew that he had disconnected the two trilogies to such a point that he would HAVE to include things like the Tantive IV, Chewbacca, the Death Star construction, Imperial Officers in FULL UNIFORM, etc. so that people would say to themselves, "hey, yeah...I rememebr now". I realize that I am pushing it a bit, but I don't care how much manipulation LFL wants to do to the OT over the next twenty years or however long it takes them, they will never be able to comfortably bridge the two trilogies in terms of content or style. And so, I feel that I shouldn't have to tie the two together by my own rationalizations or ignorance of what is turly up there on the screen. (I find that those who are in touch with the EU are almost always large prequel boosters. And why not? They are used to using their imaginations in order to fill in any gaps between stories.)

In any event, to each his own. Just because you love the OT does NOT mean that you have to even LIKE the prequels. Not acknowledging their existence is, I think, taking it a bit far. But judging each to their own individual merits is completely justified. Feel the way you feel about it and don't let anyone else's feelings towards your opinion sway you.

(God I have a lot of time on my hands today. I hate being sick.)

A long time ago in the faraway galaxy...

Star War: The Third Gathers
Backstroke Of The West

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I can live with Clones and Sith and discard Menace, I like Sith and keep feeling what might have been with the other two if had be as good as Sith(the only prequel in which I felt I was truely watching Star Wars and felt this is great I cant wait to see again).I may not be popular but I feel its better than Jedi in some aspects, I thinking of having a quadriology(Sith ANH ESB ROTJ maybe/probably add Clones) I have no interest in Menace,at this time when viewing I am sticking to the original trilogy until Sith arrives and maybe pick up Clones again for a view and watch with Sith,
I may give Menace a whirl and sit through the six but I dont think my opinion on Menace will ever change, but there nothing I do to change that Vader created 3-PO, I can bypass it slightly if I discard Menace.
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I agree with Bungle, but my tastes flucuates. At times I can sit through Phanton Menace and Clones, at other times it's unbearable.

Sith (which IS better than Jedi) is the only Star Wars movie of the prequels, and I can watch that one right alongside Star Wars and Empire with no problems.
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If I ever have kids, I will show them the O-OT (when I get my hands on it), then Sith, but nothing else. And even then, I may only show them an edit of Sith if a good one becomes available.
MTFBWY. Always.

http://www.myspace.com/red_ajax
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If you are going to show them the films, show them as George intends. It truly is an amzing experience. Just becuase you experienced and remember the films a certain way doesn't mean they have to. Hey, you never know. They might (gasp) like all the movies as a whole!
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I'd happen to like my kids a little more than to do that to them.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: Adamwankenobi
If you are going to show them the films, show them as George intends. It truly is an amzing experience. Just becuase you experienced and remember the films a certain way doesn't mean they have to. Hey, you never know. They might (gasp) like all the movies as a whole!


you mean as Lucas intended back in 77 or back in 83 after Jedi came out? How about in 95 after he released the Original Trilogy for the last time as it was seen in theatres. Or perhaps you refer to how he intended it to be seen in 97 when he released the special editions. but then again you could be talking about his 'final' version of how it should be seen in 04 when he released the official dvds. though based on talk, come 07 all these versions will be obsolete cause lucas would have changed his mind again and released a new version of how he has always intended them to be seen.

why do people still defend him on his 'this is how i intended it but didnt have the technology back then' how did he not have technology to make greedo shoot first? answer, he did, it was just NEVER his intention until 97 to do so. End of story. 85% of the changes actually hurt the flow of the story,10% are completely useless, and the other 5% are the kinds of fixes he should have made where errors and actually technical limitations were corrected.

-Darth Simon
Why Anakin really turned to the dark side:
"Anakin, You're father I am" - Yoda
"No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!" - Anakin

0100111001101001011011100110101001100001

*touchy people disclaimer*
some or all of the above comments are partially exaggerated to convey a point, none of the comments are meant as personal attacks on anyone mentioned or reference in the above post
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This is part of my problem I have, when will the George Lucas final version of the original trilogy appear, 28-22 years later and still has'nt arrived apprentatly and people are still buying sets eg 2004 DVD sets that are still apprentanly still not his complete "vision" for Star Wars, but for the 30th Anniversary the original trilogy will surely appear again (with more changes fixes most people are sure of it) but will that the final definitive George Lucas version or will one appear again down the line(with more changes......).

Its ridicolous, the fan-edits I have seen on here have apprently done a better job than Lucasfilm on ANH at fixing sabres fixing bloopers etc, yet I live in hope that one day the O-O-T will be released and the Lucas final version will be released so I can throw away my bootlegs and can see both properly and choose which version of SW I prefer.....
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Originally posted by: Darth Simon
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Originally posted by: Adamwankenobi
If you are going to show them the films, show them as George intends. It truly is an amzing experience. Just becuase you experienced and remember the films a certain way doesn't mean they have to. Hey, you never know. They might (gasp) like all the movies as a whole!


you mean as Lucas intended back in 77 or back in 83 after Jedi came out? How about in 95 after he released the Original Trilogy for the last time as it was seen in theatres. Or perhaps you refer to how he intended it to be seen in 97 when he released the special editions. but then again you could be talking about his 'final' version of how it should be seen in 04 when he released the official dvds. though based on talk, come 07 all these versions will be obsolete cause lucas would have changed his mind again and released a new version of how he has always intended them to be seen.

why do people still defend him on his 'this is how i intended it but didnt have the technology back then' how did he not have technology to make greedo shoot first? answer, he did, it was just NEVER his intention until 97 to do so. End of story. 85% of the changes actually hurt the flow of the story,10% are completely useless, and the other 5% are the kinds of fixes he should have made where errors and actually technical limitations were corrected.

-Darth Simon


Amen, brother. Amen.

My kids watch all of them right now. I was going to do the "watch the OT first and then when you are old enough to understand why the PT sucks, you can watch those" thing, but I figured that I wanted them to just be able to grow up on SW as a whole and appreciate it in the way that THEY will. Not the way that I did. There is no way that they could ever have the SW experience that I did and I am very interested to see what kinds of SW memories they build for themselves through their own experiences with the saga. My three sons actually do seem to gravitate to the OT, though. For some reason, they all seem (at least so far) to really love Darth Vader. I can't help but assume that, as much as it may contradict my previous statement, this has at least a little to do with my influence as Vader is my favorite character (has been since childhood and now in adulthood, having lived a rather interesting life, I appreciate the duality of the character in a whole new light) and my home is littered from top to bottom with Vader items. But whenever I ask them which one they want to watch, they usually pick either Empire or Jedi. My nephew, on the other hand, loves the prequels. My sister is also a huge SW fan and she says that her son always wants to watch AOTC (and Sith, but, since we aren't supposed to have that yet... um.... well.......).

So I guess what order your kids watch them in really does come down to whether or not you want your kids to have the experience that YOU had with the saga, or whether you want them to be able to build their own memories of it based on the availability of all six films on DVD. And just think about it. When it comes to the OT, like Simon said, you are going to have a LOT of explaining to do to them in regards to the many different versions available to them. Personally, I look to it with great anticipation as I hope my children will have at least a passing interest in the art of film making. And what better films to use in regards to the history and advancement of the art than the original trilogy?

But like I said in my previous post, it really doesn't matter how any one person feels about the films. Everyone is MEANT to feel differently when they watch a film. Because, gloriously... everyone IS different. That's why the guy makes thirty one flavors.

To each his own. Different strokes. Opinions are like..... well, you get the point.

A long time ago in the faraway galaxy...

Star War: The Third Gathers
Backstroke Of The West

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I think Sith was very good and in many ways its better than Jedi. Once Sidious begins his brainwashing of Anakin the film is awesome. However, Phantom Menace has to go down as the most disapointing moviegoing experience of my entire life. It was like, "I waited all these years for THIS?!!!"
George Lucas was seduced by the dark side. The OOT ceased to exist in his mind and became the Special Editions...." "They're more maching now than movies. Twisted and evil."
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well...back in the late 90's:
_97:SE, it was cool to see the movies on the big screen again, but some things were very bad moves from GL (Greedo, bad CGIs,Jabba scene,Jedi rock....)
_99:summer holidays in NY, saw the movies (the french release was in october!),i was disapointed, i thought :it looks like SW but it's missing something(s), maybe episode2 will be better...
_'02:saw episode 2:more stimulating movie than 1 but doesn't survive a second viewing, looks like a bad attempt to repair the disapointment from episode1
_'04:the infamous dvd set! ('nuff said!)
_'05:i've lost hope to see a good SW, movie confirms that.

in least than 10 years, GL turned my favorite movies into my worst nightmare!

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Originally posted by: Darth Simon
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Originally posted by: Adamwankenobi
If you are going to show them the films, show them as George intends. It truly is an amzing experience. Just becuase you experienced and remember the films a certain way doesn't mean they have to. Hey, you never know. They might (gasp) like all the movies as a whole!


you mean as Lucas intended back in 77 or back in 83 after Jedi came out? How about in 95 after he released the Original Trilogy for the last time as it was seen in theatres. Or perhaps you refer to how he intended it to be seen in 97 when he released the special editions. but then again you could be talking about his 'final' version of how it should be seen in 04 when he released the official dvds. though based on talk, come 07 all these versions will be obsolete cause lucas would have changed his mind again and released a new version of how he has always intended them to be seen.

why do people still defend him on his 'this is how i intended it but didnt have the technology back then' how did he not have technology to make greedo shoot first? answer, he did, it was just NEVER his intention until 97 to do so. End of story. 85% of the changes actually hurt the flow of the story,10% are completely useless, and the other 5% are the kinds of fixes he should have made where errors and actually technical limitations were corrected.

-Darth Simon


I am referring to the 2007 six film box set release. Myself, I grew up with the prequel trilogy and the original trilogy. To me, they are all great, and have their own good qualities. The first of them I saw ever was TPM, then I saw ANH. They were all great to me. And take the deal all purists have with the Luke/Vader revelation. The scene is much much more powerful and sad when have seen the prequels, because you start fearing for Luke and feel sorry for him, rather than being mad at Vader or being shocked by the scene. It's one of those deals whhere you know it, and he doesn't.
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I wouldn't trade the shock of the Luke/Vader revelation in ESB for anything. I was only 7 when I saw it, and it took me two years to find out whether or not Vader was telling the truth.
MTFBWY. Always.

http://www.myspace.com/red_ajax
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Originally posted by: theredbaron
I wouldn't trade the shock of the Luke/Vader revelation in ESB for anything. I was only 7 when I saw it, and it took me two years to find out whether or not Vader was telling the truth.


I have to agree, same for me..........
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Yeah, that's you. Everyone should at least allow others to see it from the I-VI point of view.
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Originally posted by: Adamwankenobi
Yeah, that's you. Everyone should at least allow others to see it from the I-VI point of view.


I am probably going too when Sith appears, I am gonna be interested how the Vader revelation effect works now the back-story is told......
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And the debate rages on. Personally (and I have not found a discussion which disproves this theory) I think it is a generational thing.

I was five years old when I saw Empire for the first time and hearing Darth Vader say those words to Luke... the impact that had on me cannot even be put into words. The relation that I felt in conjunction to my own relationship with my father (notice the lower case "f") was VERY powerful. And there it is again. It is a personal choice how one sees these films and for anyone to say that anyone else's decision to watch them front to back or sideways and out of order is wrong is just silly and bull headed. I know my fair share of purists who will argue until they are blue in the face in order to try and sway a prequel lover's opinion. And that door swings both ways as far as Lucas boosters who don't understand HOW anyone could not see the films the way that George sees them (at any given moment).

I think the best way to settle it (and this works out for those who want us all to love the films as George sees them as well) is to go at the films the way that George does. Let your indecision regarding either saga flow in whatever direction it needs to at any given moment. It is perfectly fine to love the prequels one moment and hate them the next. I bet Lucas feels the same way about these films at this point. As much as he loves them, there is that bug that will eat at him until the day he dies that he didn't get every little bit of it just the way that he wanted. And he changes his mind about how he sees things every day. I listen to the film commentaries of every DVD I purchase. And I don't know how many times I have heard film makers talk about how if they could go back and change this or that in their film, they would. Some of these changes are things that they wanted to do at the time they were making the film and budgets or producers wouldn't let them. And others are changes that the passage of time have brought to their creative eye. The only difference between those film makers and George Lucas is that he OWNS these films. He can change any thing he wants any time he wants for as long as he wants. McCallum was even joking about this at CIII. How he has a re-accuring nightmare that he gets a phone call in the middle of the night when he is 80 and it's George's daughter saying that George is looking for sound elements from one of the episodes so that he can make another change. So I say we should all just roll with it. The guy is going to tinker with these flicks until he becomes one with the Force anyway. So why not let our opinions on them change with time as well?

These movies are so close to most of our hearts that I would equate them to being a member of our families. And Lord knows... I bicker with my siblings ALL the time. It's OK. I guess that means that Episode I is my brother who refuses to listen and leaves his crap all over the house and that Episode II would be the brother that tries so damn hard to be liked, but in the end just comes off looking like a kiss ass all the time. Episode III is my sister who started out looking as if she was going to be a HUGE success, but kind of slipped in her journey and now has settled into a comfortable life as a Mother and wife. Not too shabby, but what could have been will always loom like a shadow. Now, Episode IV would be my sister who ....

GOD THIS IS FRIGHTENING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A long time ago in the faraway galaxy...

Star War: The Third Gathers
Backstroke Of The West

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I can see how the 70's child would see all the movies, having had the Vader revelation, but I was a 90's child who saw everything from a different perspective. Despuite having never seen the originals until after TPM in 1999, I grew up knowing Vader was Luke's father. That was never a shock to me. What interested me most was how he became Vader, which is why I like the prequels. I see all the movies as equal. I don't set around bashing any of them, I have just grew up appreciating all of them.
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Seeing the story of Anakin was to be the single greatest joy I could behold when I first heard Lucas' plans for the prequel trilogy back in '97. Vader being my favorite character, of course I was fascinated by the prospect of seeing his transformation realized on screen. After seeing the prequels laid out over the past six years... I am just totally and completely underwhelmed. But again, this is just my opinion. I'm not saying that they are "bad" films. Just saying that what I thought and hoped I was going to see, I didn't. But I can't fault Lucas for that. He has his vision and I guess I had mine. And when it comes to Star Wars, for good or bad, it is his vision that sticks at the end of the day. (Where it sticks, again, is open to everyone's personal opinion.)

Personally, I like it when I hear that people enjoy the prequels. It is our differences in opinion that make give us all something to talk about.

A long time ago in the faraway galaxy...

Star War: The Third Gathers
Backstroke Of The West

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Yeah, it must have been too big of an expectation. The problem it seems, it that the prequels aren't what people had in their heads for 16 years that they would be. People seem to find it hard to accept that the prequels are the way they are. Is it really how Lucas says it is that: "people wanted to see Darth Vader running around and chopping people up with Lightsabers?"
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Originally posted by: Adamwankenobi
Yeah, it must have been too big of an expectation. The problem it seems, it that the prequels aren't what people had in their heads for 16 years that they would be. People seem to find it hard to accept that the prequels are the way they are. Is it really how Lucas says it is that: "people wanted to see Darth Vader running around and chopping people up with Lightsabers?"


Text


You make a good point, cause I think there was a section of OT fans that did want to see Vader running around killing everyone. But there is a segment, like myself, who understand what Lucas was doing, and I don't have a problem with starting the story with a 9 year old boy.

My whole problem with the prequels, is that when you compare them to the OT in just quality, IMO, they are all inferior, and after all 6 are done now, I see them as 2 trilogies, not 1 big story. It is all about quality, quality, quality. We can complain about where he should have went with the story, or who should have done what, but in the end you have:

TPM: An average movie, that if it wasn't Star Wars would be a terrible movie

AOTC: A better movie than TPM, but what is that saying? Do we judge our beloved films now on ,"Well, it wasn't as bad as TPM!"

ROTS: Pretty good, but still misses the mark of greatness. Definitely better than the first 2, but it had a chance to be a classic like ANH & ESB. It couldn't achieve it, and that is when I realized that Lucas couldn't pull the prequels off. If he couldn't make one great film to rival the OT, what was the point?

As I said earlier, because of the quality drop off from the prequels, I now see them as 3 movies from PT, and 3 movies from the OT, and that is not what Lucas had intended. I watch ANH & ESB now and in most parts of ROTJ and say to myself, "What the hell happened to Lucas since the early 80's, I can't believe he couldn't pull this off."

So what I'm saying is, if you see the saga as two different trilogies, OT & PT, you will always be conflicted about the PT, and always say what if. And probably in the end, 10-15 years from now, those films won't age well. If you can see it as a 6 film story, you will enjoy both trilogies, and probably won't notice a drop off in quality, because you probably never felt that way.
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You know, one of the things many don't seem to understand about the acting style and writing style in the prequels is that he intended the acting/writing to be that way. The love story, plot, everything is modeled after the styles of the 30's, as he has said on many occasions. And I wouldn't expect one of those movies to have great acting. Also, many purists aren't being truthful to themselves in that the acting in the OT is that much better. Take the famous "Nooooooooo!!!!!!!" from ROTS. I ask everyone, do you honestly think that it is any better than Lukes "Noooooo!!!!!!" in ESB? Like father like son I suppose? Also take the fact that HC and MH had that same whiny acting style which LUCAS WANTED. I have to trust the old bearded one in his decisions, becuase I highly doubt he would spend and risk hundreds of millions of dollars, around ten years of his time and devotion, and countless interviews and queries, if he didn't know what he was doing.
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Originally posted by: Adamwankenobi
I have to trust the old bearded one in his decisions, becuase I highly doubt he would spend and risk hundreds of millions of dollars, around ten years of his time and devotion, and countless interviews and queries, if he didn't know what he was doing.


Uh... right... knew what he was doing, just like with the Holiday Special, the Ewok movies, allowing himself to be associated with Howard the Duck, Jar- Jar Binks... Georgie always knows what he is doing, why can't we just trust the guy? Don't think George made the Holiday Special because he thought it would be a fitting sequel to Star Wars. He made it because Star Wars was big, and it was a way to cach in on a few extra bucks. Ewoks? Why did he make these? Because they were a fantastic tie in to the great Star Wars Saga and an important part of his ultimate vision? It was a great way to cash in more on SW movies. Many people liked the Ewoks, make a made for TV movie about them, people will eat it up. It went over well, make another. Time goes on and Star Wars stops pulling in as much as it used to, maybe the fans still buy every re-release of the trilogy but it isn't enough. Time to make the prequels!

And next, the Star Wars TV show? Star Wars is too big for the little screen, but people are going to eat it up all over again. The quality of it doesn't matter, it will probably just be a bunch of no name actor dancing around with lightsabers in front of a green screen, but it is Star Wars! So you'll be sure to watch. I'll be sure to watch. Then it comes out on DVD season by season. $$$$$$$ Yes, the great bearded one most certianly knows what he is doing, I don't think any one of doubts that.

"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape

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Originally posted by: Adamwankenobi
You know, one of the things many don't seem to understand about the acting style and writing style in the prequels is that he intended the acting/writing to be that way. The love story, plot, everything is modeled after the styles of the 30's, as he has said on many occasions. And I wouldn't expect one of those movies to have great acting. Also, many purists aren't being truthful to themselves in that the acting in the OT is that much better. Take the famous "Nooooooooo!!!!!!!" from ROTS. I ask everyone, do you honestly think that it is any better than Lukes "Noooooo!!!!!!" in ESB? Like father like son I suppose? Also take the fact that HC and MH had that same whiny acting style which LUCAS WANTED. I have to trust the old bearded one in his decisions, becuase I highly doubt he would spend and risk hundreds of millions of dollars, around ten years of his time and devotion, and countless interviews and queries, if he didn't know what he was doing.




People might find this hard to believe but when I watch Star Wars i dont expect great acting and dialouge, I didnt expect it in 77 80 83 and didnt expect it for the prequels It didnt matter me in 77 and the same in 2005 to me its par for the course in Star Wars you watch something other than Star Wars I feel to get this excellent dialouge and excellent acting, and I feel Lucas is a great filmaker and was near enough at the top of his game for Sith(people will disagree) but he works I feel better in collaberation(screenwriters other directors?) and feel some was needed for the prequels( eg. the romance in Clones and Sith which a percentage feel is the weakest)things like this needed polishing and someone saying to Lucas this doesnt feel right.