Has Star Wars finally "jumped the shark"? — Page 4

Jay said:

Creox said:

I think it’s interesting there is a thread on SW jumping the shark or/and over-saturation in the same reality that has Marvel just releasing its what?..umpteenth flick about superheroes.

IMO it seems SW fans want their films to be rare events and in reality their wish for more comes with a lot of caveats.

Consumers eat up multiple comic book movies and 10-hour+ series every year. Marvel’s success suggests frequency and over-saturation aren’t the problem.

Not a problem with the MCU for sure but I think that is starting to erode a bit. How SW is different with respects to how fans respond to more content is a bit of a confusing topic for me. I love that there is more content and movies but many do not. I think it’s due to what I already posted. There is a very vocal percentage of SW super fans who look at the OT as sacred texts that should not be messed with in any way. The release of more and more movies (which appears to me to be the only medium that effects these fans) seems to anger them as it dilutes the religion so to speak? Not sure.

DrDre said:

Shopping Maul said:

With regards to Rey, whatever fanboy misgivings I may personally have about the writing, I do think its great that Kathleen K. and co. have given young girls their own Luke Skywalker to look up to and dress up as.

I’m in two minds about this, because to me it feels like putting the cart before the horse. I agree with the idea that these franchises could use a lot more female protagonists and antagonists, and that gender should not be a determining factor in casting a character in general. As such on average there should be about an equal number of male/female protagonists, and antagonists. However, I consider the statement, that young girls cannot relate to or identify with Luke Skywalker, because he’s male to be inherently sexist. The character of Luke Skywalker is an avatar for the desires and hopes of both men and women. As such, it shouldn’t matter, if the character is portrayed by a man or a woman. Lucas wasn’t trying to cater to a specific gender group when he created the character. Consequently, Luke could have been a girl, and the story would have played out in exactly the same way. The only time the gender of a character matters, is when that character, has specific traits, that are gender specific, or if you want to specifically relate to a specific gender group. In all other cases casting should be driven by having equal representation of men and women, not by the sexist notion, that men can only relate to men, and women only relate to women.

Honestly Dre, and I’m not being deliberately evasive here, I wasn’t thinking that deeply about what I was saying. Of course girls can relate to Luke Skywalker (there are angry female Youtubers doing just that as they admonish the Kennedy/RJ version of Luke) but I was talking in a basic cosplay sense of it ie now there’s a ‘girl’ Luke that gives little girls the option of dressing up as (and admiring at whatever level) a female Star Wars hero in the Skywalker mold.

Creox said:

Jay said:

Creox said:

I think it’s interesting there is a thread on SW jumping the shark or/and over-saturation in the same reality that has Marvel just releasing its what?..umpteenth flick about superheroes.

IMO it seems SW fans want their films to be rare events and in reality their wish for more comes with a lot of caveats.

Consumers eat up multiple comic book movies and 10-hour+ series every year. Marvel’s success suggests frequency and over-saturation aren’t the problem.

Not a problem with the MCU for sure but I think that is starting to erode a bit. How SW is different with respects to how fans respond to more content is a bit of a confusing topic for me. I love that there is more content and movies but many do not. I think it’s due to what I already posted. There is a very vocal percentage of SW super fans who look at the OT as sacred texts that should not be messed with in any way. The release of more and more movies (which appears to me to be the only medium that effects these fans) seems to anger them as it dilutes the religion so to speak? Not sure.

That sounds about right. It’s probably no surprise that a certain segment of fans find RO to be the best film they’ve done - a film that does little to expand the narrative beyond unnecessarily plugging a perceived “plot hole” in the original, and fulfilling the ultimate fan service of seeing Darth Vader commit a massacre (something that had simply been implied before). It’s very much a supplement to the OT.

Marvel’s success seems to be the exception rather than the rule. No one else has replicated it. Honestly the reason is painfully obvious - Marvel is a collection of franchises plural, rather than just one singular franchise. If there was a Guardians of the Galaxy movie out every year, it’s no guarantee whatsoever that they would all be a success.

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

Jay said:

Creox said:

I think it’s interesting there is a thread on SW jumping the shark or/and over-saturation in the same reality that has Marvel just releasing its what?..umpteenth flick about superheroes.

IMO it seems SW fans want their films to be rare events and in reality their wish for more comes with a lot of caveats.

Consumers eat up multiple comic book movies and 10-hour+ series every year. Marvel’s success suggests frequency and over-saturation aren’t the problem.

Not a problem with the MCU for sure but I think that is starting to erode a bit. How SW is different with respects to how fans respond to more content is a bit of a confusing topic for me. I love that there is more content and movies but many do not. I think it’s due to what I already posted. There is a very vocal percentage of SW super fans who look at the OT as sacred texts that should not be messed with in any way. The release of more and more movies (which appears to me to be the only medium that effects these fans) seems to anger them as it dilutes the religion so to speak? Not sure.

That sounds about right. It’s probably no surprise that a certain segment of fans find RO to be the best film they’ve done - a film that does little to expand the narrative beyond unnecessarily plugging a perceived “plot hole” in the original, and fulfilling the ultimate fan service of seeing Darth Vader commit a massacre (something that had simply been implied before). It’s very much a supplement to the OT.

Marvel’s success seems to be the exception rather than the rule. No one else has replicated it. Honestly the reason is painfully obvious - Marvel is a collection of franchises plural, rather than just one singular franchise. If there was a Guardians of the Galaxy movie out every year, it’s no guarantee whatsoever that they would all be a success.

Your last paragraph is spot on I think. I was rattling similar ideas around my noggin while I was posting before. The post Lucas SW is just getting started and with a new trilogy coming out by Rian it appears they will take a more MCU direction with the franchise.

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

Jay said:

Creox said:

I think it’s interesting there is a thread on SW jumping the shark or/and over-saturation in the same reality that has Marvel just releasing its what?..umpteenth flick about superheroes.

IMO it seems SW fans want their films to be rare events and in reality their wish for more comes with a lot of caveats.

Consumers eat up multiple comic book movies and 10-hour+ series every year. Marvel’s success suggests frequency and over-saturation aren’t the problem.

Not a problem with the MCU for sure but I think that is starting to erode a bit. How SW is different with respects to how fans respond to more content is a bit of a confusing topic for me. I love that there is more content and movies but many do not. I think it’s due to what I already posted. There is a very vocal percentage of SW super fans who look at the OT as sacred texts that should not be messed with in any way. The release of more and more movies (which appears to me to be the only medium that effects these fans) seems to anger them as it dilutes the religion so to speak? Not sure.

That sounds about right. It’s probably no surprise that a certain segment of fans find RO to be the best film they’ve done - a film that does little to expand the narrative beyond unnecessarily plugging a perceived “plot hole” in the original, and fulfilling the ultimate fan service of seeing Darth Vader commit a massacre (something that had simply been implied before). It’s very much a supplement to the OT.

Marvel’s success seems to be the exception rather than the rule. No one else has replicated it. Honestly the reason is painfully obvious - Marvel is a collection of franchises plural, rather than just one singular franchise. If there was a Guardians of the Galaxy movie out every year, it’s no guarantee whatsoever that they would all be a success.

Nobody is suggesting annual Star Wars films with the same characters and story lines. The universe is rife with possibilities. No reason they couldn’t take a page from Marvel’s playbook and have multiple stories going simultaneously with different characters in the same universe. Each set of characters could have a film every few years with staggered releases so we end up with one film a year, but alternating casts and stories. Every five or six years, have a big event film (“saga”) that ties the different stories together. It doesn’t need to be at the same scale as Marvel.

I think this is where Disney is taking SW. Rian’s future trilogy is not supposed to have much or any characters from any of the movies released so far…or if they do they will be side characters of cameos perhaps…don’t know enough at this time.

Shopping Maul said:

DrDre said:

Shopping Maul said:

With regards to Rey, whatever fanboy misgivings I may personally have about the writing, I do think its great that Kathleen K. and co. have given young girls their own Luke Skywalker to look up to and dress up as.

I’m in two minds about this, because to me it feels like putting the cart before the horse. I agree with the idea that these franchises could use a lot more female protagonists and antagonists, and that gender should not be a determining factor in casting a character in general. As such on average there should be about an equal number of male/female protagonists, and antagonists. However, I consider the statement, that young girls cannot relate to or identify with Luke Skywalker, because he’s male to be inherently sexist. The character of Luke Skywalker is an avatar for the desires and hopes of both men and women. As such, it shouldn’t matter, if the character is portrayed by a man or a woman. Lucas wasn’t trying to cater to a specific gender group when he created the character. Consequently, Luke could have been a girl, and the story would have played out in exactly the same way. The only time the gender of a character matters, is when that character, has specific traits, that are gender specific, or if you want to specifically relate to a specific gender group. In all other cases casting should be driven by having equal representation of men and women, not by the sexist notion, that men can only relate to men, and women only relate to women.

Honestly Dre, and I’m not being deliberately evasive here, I wasn’t thinking that deeply about what I was saying. Of course girls can relate to Luke Skywalker (there are angry female Youtubers doing just that as they admonish the Kennedy/RJ version of Luke) but I was talking in a basic cosplay sense of it ie now there’s a ‘girl’ Luke that gives little girls the option of dressing up as (and admiring at whatever level) a female Star Wars hero in the Skywalker mold.

I wasn’t criticizing you. I get where you’re coming from. I simply was putting your comments in the context of what Kathleen Kennedy said on the matter earlier. 😃

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

Jay said:

Creox said:

I think it’s interesting there is a thread on SW jumping the shark or/and over-saturation in the same reality that has Marvel just releasing its what?..umpteenth flick about superheroes.

IMO it seems SW fans want their films to be rare events and in reality their wish for more comes with a lot of caveats.

Consumers eat up multiple comic book movies and 10-hour+ series every year. Marvel’s success suggests frequency and over-saturation aren’t the problem.

Not a problem with the MCU for sure but I think that is starting to erode a bit. How SW is different with respects to how fans respond to more content is a bit of a confusing topic for me. I love that there is more content and movies but many do not. I think it’s due to what I already posted. There is a very vocal percentage of SW super fans who look at the OT as sacred texts that should not be messed with in any way. The release of more and more movies (which appears to me to be the only medium that effects these fans) seems to anger them as it dilutes the religion so to speak? Not sure.

That sounds about right. It’s probably no surprise that a certain segment of fans find RO to be the best film they’ve done - a film that does little to expand the narrative beyond unnecessarily plugging a perceived “plot hole” in the original, and fulfilling the ultimate fan service of seeing Darth Vader commit a massacre (something that had simply been implied before). It’s very much a supplement to the OT.

Marvel’s success seems to be the exception rather than the rule. No one else has replicated it. Honestly the reason is painfully obvious - Marvel is a collection of franchises plural, rather than just one singular franchise. If there was a Guardians of the Galaxy movie out every year, it’s no guarantee whatsoever that they would all be a success.

Your last paragraph is spot on I think. I was rattling similar ideas around my noggin while I was posting before. The post Lucas SW is just getting started and with a new trilogy coming out by Rian it appears they will take a more MCU direction with the franchise.

The thing is, while that approach sounds like it could hypothetically work on paper, there isn’t any evidence yet as to whether or not it’s possible. Marvel took multiple franchises and combined them into a mega franchise. Star Wars is a massive franchise, yes, but the question remains if a massive franchise can be split into parts that are each expected to be equal to the whole. There’s really no precedent for that. The closest I can think of is the X-Men films’ Wolverine spin-offs, but even then there are some obvious key differences. Mostly returning actor vs. new actor, but also release date timing. I think the idea that Star Wars could put out a billion dollar movie every single year if they are all universally loved is an incredibly faulty one. Which is to say nothing of the fact that it is probably beyond impossible for anyone to ever to make a new Star Wars movie that is universally loved.

SilverWook said:

They need to figure out how to avoid the problems that drive the cost of these films up as what happened with Solo. The Star Wars sequel that never was, Splinter Of The Mind’s Eye was conceived as being a modestly budgeted film that would take advantage of props and costumes left over from the first film. There’s probably a few warehouses full of stuff from the current films now.
A lean, mean, lower budgeted SW story film has a better chance at cleaning up at the box office.

I agree completely. They can’t be banking on every film making a billion or a little under to break even. Marvel doesn’t even do that.

Does anyone actually want an MCU style 20-film intertwined arc for these films? I much prefer jumping around on the timeline and letting stories live by themselves, and I think that’s a space Star Wars has been much more comfortable occupying. If, in Solo, Han had encountered an Infinity Kyber crystal that was somehow vital to saving the universe in Episode IX, I’m not sure how that would make anything better.

The idea that Star Wars is “failing” simply because the ST doesn’t have an overarching vision is silly for a million reasons, least of which that 90% of trilogies in existence don’t have that, and most of which that the trilogy isn’t even completed yet. As for the suggestion that Kennedy is solely going for a random and scattershot approach, that’s not even remotely true. Literally the only new films currently on the roster are two series of movies, both with the exact thing you mention - an overarching creative director.

I agree with Dom on this one.

DominicCobb said:

Does anyone actually want an MCU style 20-film intertwined arc for these films?

Since I hate the structure & style of the MCU, no.

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

Creox said:

Jay said:

Creox said:

I think it’s interesting there is a thread on SW jumping the shark or/and over-saturation in the same reality that has Marvel just releasing its what?..umpteenth flick about superheroes.

IMO it seems SW fans want their films to be rare events and in reality their wish for more comes with a lot of caveats.

Consumers eat up multiple comic book movies and 10-hour+ series every year. Marvel’s success suggests frequency and over-saturation aren’t the problem.

Not a problem with the MCU for sure but I think that is starting to erode a bit. How SW is different with respects to how fans respond to more content is a bit of a confusing topic for me. I love that there is more content and movies but many do not. I think it’s due to what I already posted. There is a very vocal percentage of SW super fans who look at the OT as sacred texts that should not be messed with in any way. The release of more and more movies (which appears to me to be the only medium that effects these fans) seems to anger them as it dilutes the religion so to speak? Not sure.

That sounds about right. It’s probably no surprise that a certain segment of fans find RO to be the best film they’ve done - a film that does little to expand the narrative beyond unnecessarily plugging a perceived “plot hole” in the original, and fulfilling the ultimate fan service of seeing Darth Vader commit a massacre (something that had simply been implied before). It’s very much a supplement to the OT.

Marvel’s success seems to be the exception rather than the rule. No one else has replicated it. Honestly the reason is painfully obvious - Marvel is a collection of franchises plural, rather than just one singular franchise. If there was a Guardians of the Galaxy movie out every year, it’s no guarantee whatsoever that they would all be a success.

Your last paragraph is spot on I think. I was rattling similar ideas around my noggin while I was posting before. The post Lucas SW is just getting started and with a new trilogy coming out by Rian it appears they will take a more MCU direction with the franchise.

The thing is, while that approach sounds like it could hypothetically work on paper, there isn’t any evidence yet as to whether or not it’s possible. Marvel took multiple franchises and combined them into a mega franchise. Star Wars is a massive franchise, yes, but the question remains if a massive franchise can be split into parts that are each expected to be equal to the whole. There’s really no precedent for that. The closest I can think of is the X-Men films’ Wolverine spin-offs, but even then there are some obvious key differences. Mostly returning actor vs. new actor, but also release date timing. I think the idea that Star Wars could put out a billion dollar movie every single year if they are all universally loved is an incredibly faulty one. Which is to say nothing of the fact that it is probably beyond impossible for anyone to ever to make a new Star Wars movie that is universally loved.

Fair enough…I’m not saying it will be exactly like the MCU but I definitely see hints of more frequent releases that include spin offs like RO and Solo along with their…premiere?? offerings of trilogy based stories. I guess I think we’ll just be seeing more of everything. That’s kind of a no brainer imo.

DuracellEnergizer said:

DominicCobb said:

Does anyone actually want an MCU style 20-film intertwined arc for these films?

Since I hate the structure & style of the MCU, no.

I hear ya. When I was mentioning some fatigue around this approach it was this kind of thinking I was talking about. I cannot be bothered to invest the time and money into that many films of that many characters which ALL blend together somehow. Of course I can enjoy them individually but Marvel is hoping the fans will consume it all to get the gold star effect.

Jay said:

DominicCobb said:

The idea that Star Wars is “failing” simply because the ST doesn’t have an overarching vision is silly for a million reasons, least of which that 90% of trilogies in existence don’t have that, and most of which that the trilogy isn’t even completed yet.

I didn’t say that’s why it was failing, just that the lack of an overarching vision for the franchise has made a bit of a mess (as evidenced by the vastly different takes on Star Wars provided by the sequel trilogy, in my opinion) and that they might be better served by emulating the Marvel model. And it wasn’t something I suggested they do with the sequel trilogy; obviously they can’t since it’s already two films in.

As for the suggestion that Kennedy is solely going for a random and scattershot approach, that’s not even remotely true. Literally the only new films currently on the roster are two series of movies, both with the exact thing you mention - an overarching creative director.

After two offshoot films by different writers/directors, one of which flopped, and two saga films by different writers/directors, one of which split the fanbase. And the director who split the fanbase was handed this new trilogy.

Sounds like a winning strategy.

I think it is an almost impossible task NOT to split the fan base.

I don’t think AotC or RotS split the fanbase. Phantom Menace pretty much determined how you’d feel about the others, for the most part.

Star Wars jumped the shark in 1997 where it struggled for air in the water for a while, before being chewed to death from the legs up in 1999. Years later the shark was reported to have said that this was all fine and it had always had limbs and internal organs missing.

LuckyGungan2001 said:

Jumped the shark? Definitely not. I’ve liked all the new Star Wars movies, even Rogue One which had many problems (mostly with characters), and The Last Jedi might be my favourite of all the films.

I do think, however, that it’s become a very saturated franchise. Even now I’ve lost most of the anticipation for the new films. The Force Awakens was easily the most excited I’ve ever been for any movie ever, but each conesecutive film I’ve been less hyped for. Not because I think they’ll be bad, just because there’s have been four movies in less than four years.

If they retain the level of quality they currently have, and return to releasing the films every three years, that’d be perfect, for me at least.

I think it’s weird that more than one movie in a year qualifies as saturation. I know Star Wars was an every three years thing and then there were long periods with no films, but still, a year is a very long time.

JEDIT: Also what Wook said.