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Harmy's STAR WARS Despecialized Edition HD - V2.7 - MKV (Released) — Page 144

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Harmy said:

Yeah, it's kind of funny that we're having this heated debate about something that covers about 2% of two frames :-)

The nitpicking is just going to get worse the closer this thing gets to perfection.  It is inevitable.  It is your destiny.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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Sans the mark, the added blur is a little depressing. Harmy please reconsider the added shake/blur whatever you added to the droids opening scene. To watch a crisp clear film only to see some of it noticeably blurry takes me out of the film.

Anyway nothing too heated here, just my opinion. Thanks for your time and work on this.

I love everybody. Lets all smoke some reefer and chill. Hug and kisses for everybody.

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TServo2049 said:



digitalfreaknyc said:


Why is it 25fps???
Sounds horrible.

and you've gotten aliasing artifacts as well.

 


Harmy does his work at PAL framerate. The actual release will be at the correct speed.

Don't know what's up with the aliasing, either...


I'm confused. Why would you do it in PAL to slow it down to NTSC??

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digitalfreaknyc said:

 

TServo2049 said:



digitalfreaknyc said:


Why is it 25fps???
Sounds horrible.

and you've gotten aliasing artifacts as well.

 


Harmy does his work at PAL framerate. The actual release will be at the correct speed.

Don't know what's up with the aliasing, either...


I'm confused. Why would you do it in PAL to slow it down to NTSC??

 

I have always wondered the same exact thing all the time myself lol, but that is just how he does things, I can't stand the PAL speedup either, it is just "horrible" as you put it, and I just can't take it at all.

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vbangle said:

Sans the mark, the added blur is a little depressing. Harmy please reconsider the added shake/blur whatever you added to the droids opening scene. To watch a crisp clear film only to see some of it noticeably blurry takes me out of the film.

Anyway nothing too heated here, just my opinion. Thanks for your time and work on this.

I mentioned this on the previous page but you were far more articulate about it.  It was really bothersome for me as well, and I am curious as to why the decision was made to add it at all.

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em

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digitalfreaknyc said:

I'm confused. Why would you do it in PAL to slow it down to NTSC??

PAL timecodes are unambiguous when reporting problems.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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bkev said:

I am curious as to why the decision was made to add it at all.

It was shakier in the theatre, but we don't have much in the way of usable references for that.  It's a best effort.  I'm not sure it's good enough either but I trust Harmy to make the call.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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CatBus said:

digitalfreaknyc said:

I'm confused. Why would you do it in PAL to slow it down to NTSC??

PAL timecodes are unambiguous when reporting problems.

WOW, I did not know you can't use timecodes with 23.976 FPS, learn something new every day.

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Does it really matter? If Harmy wants to work at 25fps, let him work at 25fps.

As with DEED 1.0, the final version will be at 24fps and in sync with the existing soundtrack preservations.

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dark_jedi said:

CatBus said:

digitalfreaknyc said:

I'm confused. Why would you do it in PAL to slow it down to NTSC??

PAL timecodes are unambiguous when reporting problems.

WOW, I did not know you can't use timecodes with 23.976 FPS, learn something new every day.

Smartass ;)  That's the reason given, I'm just repeating it.  I'm assuming not all playback software does fractional seconds very accurately, in which case you wouldn't know which exact frame you were dealing with.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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TServo2049 said:


NTSC has 3:2 pulldown and the whole thing of not being a whole number of frames per second.

It's easy to take a PAL video source and convert it to 24fps - the frames just play back 4% slower, no pulldown or interpolation necessary.

It really doesn't matter, because the final 24fps version is going to be synched to the existing soundtrack preservations.


I dunno. I just feel like stretching anything will introduce artifacts. I know it does with sound.

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digitalfreaknyc said:

I dunno. I just feel like stretching anything will introduce artifacts. I know it does with sound.

The frames are identical.  They are just played back faster.  Like a flip-book.  You can slow down the framerate if you really want, (visually) losslessly.  But it's just a workprint, so why bother?

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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CatBus said:

bkev said:

I am curious as to why the decision was made to add it at all.

It was shakier in the theatre, but we don't have much in the way of usable references for that.  It's a best effort.  I'm not sure it's good enough either but I trust Harmy to make the call.

It was shakier in all pre-SE versions. The SE version either has a new shake effect, or we're seeing the original in-camera shake. Either way, the much more violent initial shake prior to the SE was done optically. Some frames were smeared (I assume by using a long exposure and moving the image during exposure), and some frames were repositioned off-center (which may be why the whole image was cropped differently in the original; I'm guessing the whole scene was blown up and cropped so that it could be moved around optically, and that for the SE they cropped the original camera footage to roughly match the '77 framing). Either way, it created the illusion that the camera was being jolted around more than it actually was in the original footage.

I think it could be better recreated, though. Rather than blending the frames together, perhaps each frame could be individually manipulated in Photoshop. I'm sure there are ways to smear images in PS, and perhaps if two images were laid on top of each other at 50% opacity, each frame could be positioned relative to the adjacent ones to match the optical shake effect.

I'll post frames from the '77 shake (and not the DVNR'ed GOUT) to show how it didn't look blurry in every frame.

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Regarding the burn mark, I suggest making a seamless branching option in the menu, so the user can select with or without burn mark :)

Seriously, another option is to include it in your "making of" documentary.

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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I've already redone the shake from scratch. It's now practically frame for frame identical as in the original, I'll post a video soon.

As for the framerate, I don't understand why it should bother anyone that I work with 25fps and it sure doesn't bother me, since being from a PAL country, I have been watching films at 25fps my entire life, so if anything, films sound unnatural to me at 24fps. But more often, I just can't hear the difference, even in direct comparison.

Now, I have my reasons to work at 25fps; My GOUT DVD is PAL and the rip I have of it, which I use to time the edit is 25fps as well. Sure, I could make a new one but why? But much more importantly, I'm really really bad with even basic mathematical operations and it's just more convenient to count with 25fps - 4 seconds = 100 frames and not 95.904.

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You redid it already? Darn, I just grabbed the frames from Puggo Grande and was going to post them up to show which frames were smeared, which were repositioned, etc. :)

I still will, though. http://imageshack.us/g/109/shake001.png/

Go through them in order, and you'll see that some of them were optically smeared and repositioned, while others weren't. There was no blending of one frame with another - each frame is a manipulation of a single frame of the original footage.

No idea why they didn't try to recreate the effect in the SE; judging by the almost perfectly recreated optical wipes, I bet that a similar recreation of the shake could have been done.

Also, I don't think Ben Burtt's anecdote is referring to the burn marks. He said there was a jumpy spot when the Stormtroopers burst through the door. I think I can almost see a jump when the door explodes, but I can't tell if that's what Burtt was talking about, or if it was an intentional jump cut, or if it was just my imagination. (Maybe Mike Verta knows what the "jumpy spot" is Burtt's talking about?)

As for the burn marks, I wonder if they are connected to the optical "camera shake" effect. While going through the scene frame by frame, I notice that the artificial shaking ends right around the time the burns show up. I don't think they were introduced when the effect was done, because the 80s video transfers don't have them, and it doesn't look like the effect was recreated.

And the fact that the '77 shake was an optical effect may be why the scene was replaced in the SE. Since it was an optical, perhaps it was one of the scenes that was on CRI and was so deteriorated as to be unusable?

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Longtime lurker here,

OK...I'm also in the "No Burn mark Camp"... the reason...

Harmy, did anyone say to you, "where is the burn mark in the opening 

scene on the Tantive IV, where R2-D2 and C3PO are walking in the 

hallway" after you released version 1.0? I don't recall seeing the 

burn marks when I saw Star Wars in the theater in '77. Granted, I 

don't recall keeping my eyes open during the whole movie, but I think 

I would have caught that in the opening several minutes of the film, 

after all, it was the first time I'd ever even been in a movie 

theater, and this was my first movie. I was nearly 16 years of age, 

and very impressionable.


I'm also one of those guys that remembers Luke throwing his (rope) 

line across the cavern twice, becasue he missed the first time, and 

no one will ever tell me that wasn't in the film...because it was in 

there, in the theater I saw it in.


I want to personally thank you Harmy for this entire project. All the 

hard work that you are doing, and putting up with countless issues 

that arise. 


Bless you! 

 

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Man, I can tell you this, I never noticed those burn marks in my old VHS of STAR WARS that I have watched so much that it got worn out and yet, they were there, I know because I checked the first time someone pointed them out in this forum.

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Harmy said:

Man, I can tell you this, I never noticed those burn marks in my old VHS of STAR WARS that I have watched so much that it got worn out and yet, they were there, I know because I checked the first time someone pointed them out in this forum.

Does this mean that you are going to find this "missed throw" clip somewhere and insert it to where it should be in the movie also...for the people who saw it in the theaters when it was introduced in May-July (or later) of 1977?

That would be great for all the fans that originally saw it, and know it was in there, in the summer of '77. Just pointing it out to you, here and now. wink!

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dlvh said:

That would be great for all the fans that originally saw it, and know it was in there, in the summer of '77

I'm sorry, but it's been discussed inside and out on this forum how the scene doesn't exist, and why so many people remember it when it never happened.

dlvh really said:

That would be great for all the fans that read the novelization over and over after the film was no longer in theaters, and thus mistakenly "remembered" the scene being in the actual film.

In a time before video, when the only way to see a movie was when it was in theaters, these kind of false memories happened. (In fact, even after video, people still "remembered" seeing extra scenes in the theater, like the infamous, nonexistent closeup of Anthony Hopkins cutting into Ray Liotta's brain in "Hannibal.")

I'm sorry, but it has been proven that this scene was only in the novelization. It wasn't in any version of the film, it was never filmed, and it was never in any version of the script.

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dlvh said:

Does this mean that you are going to find this "missed throw" clip somewhere and insert it to where it should be in the movie also...for the people who saw it in the theaters when it was introduced in May-July (or later) of 1977?

That would be great for all the fans that originally saw it, and know it was in there, in the summer of '77

As soon as some hard evidence of the missed throw materializes, he'll be right on it.  However, it's not on any of the original 35mm reels anyone's ever gotten their hands on (badly faded, but usable enough to in/validate this claim), nor on any in-theatre video recordings, or anything else.

Top Men.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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CatBus said:

dlvh said:

Does this mean that you are going to find this "missed throw" clip somewhere and insert it to where it should be in the movie also...for the people who saw it in the theaters when it was introduced in May-July (or later) of 1977?

That would be great for all the fans that originally saw it, and know it was in there, in the summer of '77

As soon as some hard evidence of the missed throw materializes, he'll be right on it.  However, it's not on any of the original 35mm reels anyone's ever gotten their hands on (badly faded, but usable enough to in/validate this claim), nor on any in-theatre video recordings, or anything else.

Top Men.

Did someone mention here, that there was "outtake video" of this instance? Or was it just talk that they decided NOT to put it in, do to time restraints, or what-not? My theater had it in, but perhaps My theater had a very early copy that later version s left it out...?

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dlvh said:

Did someone mention here, that there was "outtake video" of this instance? Or was it just talk that they decided NOT to put it in, do to time restraints, or what-not? My theater had it in, but perhaps My theater had a very early copy that later version s left it out...?

No, they decided not to film the missed throw, as the idea had not yet come to the writers of the novelization to make its way back to the scriptwriters.

I think your theatre ran a Sweded version.  That's the only possible explanation that does not involve mixing up the film and the novelization.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)