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HD-DVD

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For some reason the previous HD-DVD thread appears to have disappeared from this site. So I decided to start a new one. HD-DVD is something that needs to be talked about. In case you don't know HD-DVD is the next DVD format. It uses blue lasers and higher compression to hold movies at 1920 x 1080 resolution. Six times as good as the 720 x 480 resolution of current SD-DVD. The DVD forum has approved most HD-DVD specs and Toshiba says they can release HD-DVD in late 2005. It will also have superior sound. Current SD-DVDs use CD quality sound. Far better then VHS but we have heard better. DVD-A discs have sound quality 10x as high as CDs for music. HD-DVD is set to have the same high quaility 24/96 LPCM soundtracks that DVD-A discs use for movies. HD-DVDs hold 30 gigabits per disc compared to the 8.5 gigabit capacity of SD-DVD. HD-DVD also uses VC-9 video compression capable of holding 3x as much info in a bit as the MPEG-2 of SD-DVD.
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Oh great, HD-DVD, so I'll have to spend another 300 bucks on another player so I can watch the same old movies... Why can't technology just stick with something and stop?

Since we're talking about technicalities, let me ask you guys something: forgive my ignorance on the subject, but how does modern movie theaters play digital sound with the movies? Is the audio track still a magnetic tape running along with the celluloid?
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Technology always is progressing. HD-DVD won't be the last. Ultra Definition television is already being devoloped. A very early prototype was shown last year. Then again since we had HDTV demonstrations in 1981 but didn't get it till 1998 I suspect we won't get UDTV until around 2020. Todays DVD format has resolution of 720 x 480 quite a bit higher then laserdiscs 640 x 420 and vastly better then VHSs 320 x 240 but it doesn't compare to HDTV. HDTVs uses resolutions of 1080i and 720p. All HDTV broadcasts can look around twice as good as even a very good looking progressive anamorphic DVD. This presents a problem for the industry. As more and more people buy digital televisions they are going to notice that there television shows look better then there bought movies and are probably going to reduce buying movies. A High Definition video format already excists. D-VHS. D-VHS look on the outside the same as old VHS tapes but have resolution superior to HDTV broadcasts and about three times as good as DVD. D-VHS also have quite superior audio. Still D-VHS is a tape and has many tape disadvantages. Rewinding, big size, no extras, and degration over time because of this I have decided not to buy D-VHS. However I have seen D-VHS and let me tell you its not a bit better its way better then even the very best DVD on the very best television. It blows everything away. D-VHS are encoded in 1080i format. Resolution of 1920 x 540. HD-DVD uses resolution of 1920 x 1080. I can only imagine how good they will look. Only the most advanced and expensive televisions we look that good but even on a low end digital television the differences between it and SD-DVD will be ovious. Also HD-DVD is able to be made on traditional DVD assembly lines (its biggest advantage over its rival Blu-Ray) so they can be made and sold for a similar price as the SD-DVDs we buy.
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Heres in an article on HD-DVD showing that the format war is creating great rivalry in the industry. Some information is not accurate since HD-DVD also uses Blue lasers. Death to Blu-Ray.
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DVD will be like VHS has been since DVDs came out.

DVDs will be available similarly to how VHS was even though better technology is out there.

I don't really see any reason to buy HD-DVD. My TV isn't digital, and my movies already look excellent.

My stance on revising fan edits.

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Originally posted by: Hal 9000
DVD will be like VHS has been since DVDs came out.

DVDs will be available similarly to how VHS was even though better technology is out there.

I don't really see any reason to buy HD-DVD. My TV isn't digital, and my movies already look excellent.


Thats true SD-DVDs will still be avaible for probably a decade after HD-DVD is released. The difference between DVD and VHS is 3 times as high on an analog telvision 4x as good on a digital television and 8x as good progressive. HD-DVD has 6x the pixal disc resolution as SD-DVDs. I swear once you look at a D-VHS on a good digital television there is no going back. So if your amazed by how much better DVDs look then VHS on a regular television then you will be blown away by HD-DVD. Some say that certain players upconvert SD-DVDs to HD resolution makes HD-DVD worthless. This is not true. A true 1080p HD-DVD will look 3.5 times as good as an SD-DVD upconverted to 1080p. HD-DVD players will allow such conversion on SD-DVDs. Since HD-DVD players will be backwards compatible with SD-DVDs it will be a long time before your current collection is useless. Still the radical huge difference in picture and sound over SD-DVD will make HD-DVD a great early buy.
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More news on the HD-DVD front is the DVD forum has approved HD-DVD spec 1.0. Priviously HD-DVD 0.9 was just the disc specs. Then they approved the MPEG-4, VC-9 codec as provisional. With this new approval they have been combined and now HD-DVD players will have to mandatory include MPEG-2, MPEG-4, and VC-9 in all HD-DVD players. What does this mean? It means that HD-DVD is now a finalized video standard and we will now start the race to get HD-DVD out on the market. They should be availble in America in late 2005.
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Cool.

If the price isn't too outrageous, I'd imagine we'll buy one.

I won't rush out and rebuy all my DVDs though. I might rebuy some of my favorites. But DVDs are fine, and the reverse compatibility is a big plus.

My stance on revising fan edits.

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HD-DVD players will go down fast. Even so I doubt they will launch too expensive. My guess is they will launch less then $400. There will also be so few titles availble. Some clue at what will be availble. Peter Jackson has stated that he plans on creating HD-DVD versions of the Lord of the Rings trilogy after he is finished with King Kong. Warner has stated that they are creating high definition versions of the Matrix films. Since we already have an HD disc version and D-VHS of Terminator 2 it will probably be one of the first on true HD-DVD as well. Id rather have the first movie myself. SD-DVD was finalized in late 1995 and released in mid 1997. Since HD-DVD was finalized last week late 2005 seems like a good probablility.
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That would be my guess too, jimbo, since Sony has already announced plans to have Blu-Ray player/recorders and prerecorded material in stores by that time.

Princess Leia: I happen to like nice men.
Han Solo: I'm a nice man.

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Yeah but Blu-Ray sucks. HD-DVD has superior preformance since with VC-9 compression a 30 gigabit HD-DVD holds more information then a 54 gigabit Blu-Ray. While rumors of a better a better codec pursist all official statements suggest Blu-Ray will still use MPEG-2. In this way Sony is destroying Blu-Rays only advantage. Studios will most likly go for HD-DVD. HD-DVD is both cheaper and superior to Blu-Ray. Hell even the HD-DVD name is an advantage. The name Blu-Ray is oviously a reference to the formats blue lasers. Most people don't know the difference between red and blue lasers. People know what HD is and know what DVD is so something called HD-DVD will be automattically recognizable. Warner, Fox, Universal, Artisan, and Disney have all shown more intrest in HD-DVD then Blu-Ray.
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The latest word from Sony is that they are now considering the use of other codecs. While Blu-Ray is technically a superior technology and a better codec would certainly put it in front of HD-DVD in terms of performance, all indications at this point show 1080i as the standard for Blu-Ray, while the HD-DVD camp is pushing 1080p.

Emerging display devices utilizing LCD, LCOS, DLP, and plasma technologies now support a native 1920x1080 resolution. The HD broadcast standard supports 1080p. It doesn't make any sense to build the disc-based HD market--which will likely be the home video standard for decades--on 1080i. You can already get a 20" LCD TV for less than $700; in five years, it will be half that amount, putting LCDs in the same price plateau as current analog displays. They take up less space, they use much less power, and they look cooler. CRT's days are numbered.

Within 10 years, the analog display market will be dead, and interlaced video has no place in a digital world.

It's been suggested they could implement the same deinterlacing technology used for current DVDs (which are 480i) to convert 1080i to 1080p on the fly. Bad idea if you ask me since we'll inherit all the problems DVD has today (bad film edits, poorly encoded progressive flags, etc.). Much better to encode 1080p natively and let the device scale down to lower resolutions for older displays. Studios also perform vertical filtering on 1080i material to reduce artifacts on 1080i displays, drastically reducing detail. If they perform the same processing on 1080i destined for Blu-Ray, upconversion to 1080p inside the player wouldn't provide image quality equal to that of native 1080p.

While I think Sony has the superior technology and they might win the battle based on brute force marketing and sheer numbers (Toshiba and NEC building and selling a couple HD-DVD decks vs. just about every other manufacturer on Earth selling at least one, maybe two or three, Blu-Ray decks), the HD-DVD standard is more forward-thinking and a better deal for consumers. Better codecs, better audio (vs. Blu-Ray's DD/DTS crap), and native 1080p. The lack of storage space is unfortunate, but multi-disc DVD sets don't bother me now, so they won't bother me on the next format either.

If the Blu-Ray Group gets smart and adopts MPEG-4, multi-channel MLP audio, and native 1080p support, then the choice is clear. Until that happens, I'm pushing for HD-DVD.
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My guess both formats will go for 1080p. Current DVDs are technically 480p encoded and are downconverted to lower resolutions. Since Blu-Ray has a maximum capacity of 54 gigabits I am sure there is more then enough room for 1080p. True if Blu-Ray uses MPEG-4 it will definutly be far superior to HD-DVD. But I personally doubt they will do so. Sony has said that MPEG-2 is the way to go. Currently I am fimly with HD-DVD.
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DVDs are natively encoded as 480i, and special flags are used to tell your DVD player how to reconstruct the original progressive film frames. It's not always done properly though, and then your DVD player has to incorporate sophisticated cadence detection to perform the deinterlacing. I'd like to avoid the same mess with HD-DVD, which means 1080p native.

Again, Sony recently announced they are considering other codecs. They are no longer taking the hardline stance that MPEG2 is the only way they're going. This is an important step toward Blu-Ray winning the war, but it's still up in the air until Sony gets their act together.
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That seems strange then that D-VHS are encoded in 1080i and use 3x the bit rate as SD-DVD. Shouldn't they use 6x if DVDs are encoded 480i. I was in belief that DVDs are native 480p and a progressive scan reads all the pixals on the disc while an interlaced scan reads only half. If Blu-Ray does adopt a new codec then it will definutly be superior to HD-DVD.
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Will Blu-Ray or HD-DVD improve the quality of the movie, or simply leave room for more bonus material, languages, and stuff?



Wouldn't this just be the biggest kick in the balls? :

It's 2007 and the Star Wars Trilogy HD-DVD comes out. GL says that the original version is also in the set.
So we all buy it and pop it into our player. It seems the main feature is a ultimate edition with tons of hoopla and BS mixed in.
Then when we select 'original version' we get what we now refer to as the 1997 Special Edition.


Sad thing is, I can actually picture this happening.

My stance on revising fan edits.

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Originally posted by: Hal 9000
Will Blu-Ray or HD-DVD improve the quality of the movie, or simply leave room for more bonus material, languages, and stuff?



Wouldn't this just be the biggest kick in the balls? :

It's 2007 and the Star Wars Trilogy HD-DVD comes out. GL says that the original version is also in the set.
So we all buy it and pop it into our player. It seems the main feature is a ultimate edition with tons of hoopla and BS mixed in.
Then when we select 'original version' we get what we now refer to as the 1997 Special Edition.


Sad thing is, I can actually picture this happening.


Just read above. Both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray will have 6x the picture. Both formats will have a signifigant improvement in sound but HD-DVD is the better of the two in sound. Neither formats will have more room for extras unless those extras are in Standard Definition. I assume Star Wars saga will hit HD-DVD in 2007 as well. The Ultimate Editions will probably be the only versions of Star Wars out in that format.
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Originally posted by: Hal 9000

Sad thing is, I can actually picture this happening.


Sad thing is, I can see it, too.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
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The cynic in me agrees.

Princess Leia: I happen to like nice men.
Han Solo: I'm a nice man.

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More news on the HD-DVD front. The DVD forum is holding a three day show demonstrating HD-DVD. This will promote why this format is the future and why it is superior to Sonys Blu-Ray. Sony is sticking with MPEG-2. Theres no time for that to change. HD-DVD great codecs will make the format superior. Toshiba also says they are confident that multiple studios will support there format. Sony is not that confident. I say down with Blu-Ray.
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Sony actually made good on one of the rumors that had been floating around. The upcoming PS3 will be Blu-ray itself. Given how much the PS2's DVD drive helped push that format into uncaring homes, it definately will create a market for Blu-ray. I haven't followed THe HD scene lately as, I'm not sure if my digital TV is compatable(i really want a D-VCR). I lean for Blu-ray at the moment. I loath compression, and from what I've read WMV-9 isn't a true HD codec. It has to cut on the lumenence values of the picture. As such, it make Blu-ray the only real HD disc format( oh, how I hate discs). All of the major manufactuers support Blu-ray, as does most studios. I'll post more once I'm confident on the details. Right now, D-VHS is the best format out there, and the best of what's proposed. JVC's reluctence to share the D-Theater encryption, the lack of consumer knowledge on HD, and the simple "VHS" in the name getting people to proclaim it a step down have basically kept it a niche format. That's a good thing in a way. DVD went mainstream resulting in full-screen discs. A format meant to cater to HT junkies now does so to the common Joe. I'd rather stick to video, and hated being bashed for my views on the new, over-compressed, and oft-badly written format. However, the point is mute since I prefer widescreen and subtitled anime. HT is a confusing thing. I have 4 VCRs, 2 S-VCRs, 3 DVD players(my dad's doing), not counting my PS2 and XBox, and several TV's that make every format look great, including an old 9" that only tasted DVD briefly, and a great retired 25" that never shall, if I can help it. One of the DVD players is even a DVD-A player, though there's nothing at Best Buy I'd want for the format.


Made for IE Forum's Episode III theme month - May 2005.

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Okay, for the tech illiterate like me, what is S-VCR? And I'm assuming you mean DVD-Audio when you say DVD-A, right?
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
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kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
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The Blu-Ray in Playstation 3 will definutly be a huge advantage for Blu-Ray. HD-DVD still has the advantage or better sound, earlier launch, and cheaper price. Also price is an issue. Playstation 2 launched in late 2000. By then the DVD format was 3.5 years old and had players running at $100. Playstation 2 could encorperate this and still keep the Playstation 2 releativly cheap. With Playstation 3 set to launch in late 2006 the Blu-Ray format will only be 6 months old and in order for Playstation 3 to support Blu-Ray it would have to launch at around $500. This would definutly give its competitor Xenon a big advantage and still might not be enough to overcome the fact that HD-DVD is definutly the superior format.
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I'm thinking it might be even more expensive than that. The PS3 would have BluRay and full online gaming capability. Plus you might see an expanded hard drive in the machine. Now if only we could get a PS3 with TiVo in it.

I'm scared to think what the game discs will cost.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com