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HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray — Page 7

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Originally posted by: Patrick R.
I don't own an Xbox or PS2, but it does seem like the Xbox is doing a good job in catching up with PS2 in my opinion. The only things that make the PS2 more attractive to me is the ability to play PS1 games and some of the franchises like Final Fantasy.
The X-Box has gameplay over the PS2, of the three consoles GC XBox and PS2, PS2 has the worst gameplay. Slowest loading times, worst textures. X-Box is just too damn big for a start. From the site you provided:

"Do you think HD-DVD has an advantage of having 'DVD' still in the title for people to associate with?"

Wrong. Who buys "DIGITAL VHS"? But it still has the well-established VHS in the title. It's redundant. If it's redundant, move on.

"This is not something we have thought about at this point. To date, we have not seen any interest in a separate format for game consoles."

Well, let's go back to when consoles used the same audio-tapes for data storage... then they went to digital cartridges, then they went to CD's, and Sega used 1G CD's which could not be read in standard CD drives. Then came DVD for xbox and ps2 while GC uses custom 8-cm DVD's.

Gosh what a load of rubbish. And besides, 1.5Gig which is what the GC disc provides is still plenty for games today. When DVD's were first coming out I was told every PC game released would come on DVD. What a load of crock, they're still using CD's today. The amount of data storage is not the issue with consoles. What is is the practicality. The size, gameplay, enjoyability - durability and the fun. And when pigs fly I will buy a tray-loading console.
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Originally posted by: DanielB
TR-47 I agree with you. Let me share a small secret of marketing with you, when you present your product for the market you need to let the market tell you what product they want to buy. You can not sell a product by developing it and assuming the market will adopt it.


I concur. Supply and demand is at the heart of capitalism.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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I think its more than letting the market tell you what they want to buy. Especially in the case of a format war like this. Let me explain what i mean.

Basically this thread has discussed how there really isnt all that much difference behind the quality of audio/video that would be available on these two formats. So its the marketing departments of each of these two formats (or the companies behind the formats) job to market their product in such a way that you say to your self, my current dvds arent good enough i need these new ones, or at least say all my new movies should take advantage of this new format cause its that much better, even if it really isnt.

Mind you, people like us who know whats going on, and know the difference arent as easily fooled by this, but the majority of the consumers will buy stuff because the marketing convinces them that they need it or it is a superior product.

Not to get into much detail but two quick examples. The pet rock. Did anybody need this? was there even a demand of the consumer for this to be 'developed'? no, but it still sold millions. Second. PC vs Mac. They are both computers, they can essentially both handle the same tasks (i said not getting into much detail) but PC's were marketed better and therefore most people use PC's. Mac took a niche hold of the market. This is also true with the ipod, other music players came out before the ipod, were they as good or better? possilby, but Apple destroyed them as far as marketing went and now holds the market.

so strayed a little off topic, but i think the point is there.

-Darth Simon
Why Anakin really turned to the dark side:
"Anakin, You're father I am" - Yoda
"No. No. That's not true! That's impossible!" - Anakin

0100111001101001011011100110101001100001

*touchy people disclaimer*
some or all of the above comments are partially exaggerated to convey a point, none of the comments are meant as personal attacks on anyone mentioned or reference in the above post
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Actually there are more factors than just marketing. Your PC vs Mac example is only partially correct. Marketing took Apple to the top of the heap in the mid 80s. They dominated PCs and the old IBM OS. Every grade school, high school, and university computer lab was stocked with Apples and Macs.

It was an internal breakdown at Apple and good old-fashioned computer thievery (and marketing) that later booted Windows to the top over Macs. Macs came back with their niche marketing but it has expanded slowly but surely. The niche idea is still pretty prevalent but is not the only thing sustaining them.

Mac won, then lost, and is now trying to push forward.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
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Kevin A
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Originally posted by: Darth Simon
I think its more than letting the market tell you what they want to buy.
Really? Well Coca-Cola has flunked products by just expecting the market to adopt them. You have to let the market tell you when they're ready for a new format. It's too soon after DVD to dive into a new format, especially if it's only really going to rivial the quality of the already-available D-VHS (which is uncompressed, and four times the resolution of DVD - so current DVD's hold one tenth the digital data that D-VHS does, which is dedicated just to the movie quality, whereas these new disc formats are just scarping 50Gig). The size increase isn't significant enough. It is for consoles to guarantee their developers they'll have more room then they'll ever need - but for a home-video format it's useless.

I mean, it's only just recently become available at a reasonable price for consumers to ger DVD-recorders. D-VHS on the other hand never faced that problem, you can record onto exactly the same High-Definition commercial quality tape straight from the D-VCR, whereas DVD only lets you record onto DVD-R/RAM which is not the same thing as a pressed disc. Consumers can go back to simply recording on tapes - where they can continue recording on the same tape, record record record - don't have to worry about damage, sure some visible damage may occur, but it's not going to pause the playback or anything like that, it'll still play-through.

No, JVC should be able to push D-VHS over the upcoming disc formats anyway.
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Originally posted by: PSYCHO_DAYV
AND THEY WILL WIN AGAIN.


I don't want them to. When that happens, quality takes a backseat to quantity. Creativity takes a backseat to fulfilling orders. And virus writers will start to target Macs. Keep it where it is. I like the status quo. 5-10% of the home computer market is fine by me.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
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Kevin A
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Besides, I don't think Steve Jobs is intent on world domination; I think he likes the idea that Apples are technically superior and enjoy that respectability in the marketplace.

Princess Leia: I happen to like nice men.
Han Solo: I'm a nice man.

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Originally posted by: DanielB
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Originally posted by: Darth Simon
I think its more than letting the market tell you what they want to buy.
Really? Well Coca-Cola has flunked products by just expecting the market to adopt them. You have to let the market tell you when they're ready for a new format. It's too soon after DVD to dive into a new format, especially if it's only really going to rivial the quality of the already-available D-VHS (which is uncompressed, and four times the resolution of DVD - so current DVD's hold one tenth the digital data that D-VHS does, which is dedicated just to the movie quality, whereas these new disc formats are just scarping 50Gig). The size increase isn't significant enough. It is for consoles to guarantee their developers they'll have more room then they'll ever need - but for a home-video format it's useless.

I mean, it's only just recently become available at a reasonable price for consumers to ger DVD-recorders. D-VHS on the other hand never faced that problem, you can record onto exactly the same High-Definition commercial quality tape straight from the D-VCR, whereas DVD only lets you record onto DVD-R/RAM which is not the same thing as a pressed disc. Consumers can go back to simply recording on tapes - where they can continue recording on the same tape, record record record - don't have to worry about damage, sure some visible damage may occur, but it's not going to pause the playback or anything like that, it'll still play-through.

No, JVC should be able to push D-VHS over the upcoming disc formats anyway.


1. D-VHS is most certainly compressed and uses the same compression method as DVD: MPEG2. Just a much higher bitrate because of the vastly superior storage space and source resolution.
2. The new codecs being used for HD-DVD and BluRay are superior to MPEG2, both in compression ratio and video quality. Particularly in the area of macroblocking.
3. HD-DVD and BluRay will both likely support native unfiltered 1080p, which will quite soundly stomp the filtered 1080i of D-VHS. Interlaced video is usually filtered during mastering to help minimize jaggies on interlaced displays. The problem is that when filtered interlaced video is deinterlaced, it doesn't have nearly the same amount of detail as native unfiltered progressive video. Would you be surprised to learn that even the best DVDs you've seen don't match the potential of the format because they're filtered 480i? Native 480p DVDs are rare and visibly superior to 480i DVDs.
4. As fixed pixel digital displays slowly but surely replace the CRTs of old, the higher resolution offered by HD will be easily discernable even on smaller displays. Most of the reasonably priced CRT-based projection "HDTVs" available today use cheap 7" guns that can barely resolve 540p. Within the next few years, I think most members here who find digital HD displays (720p/1080p) out of their reach will be shocked at the affordability they're going to see. At CES, several manufacturers introduced 720p DLP projectors with MSRPs just above $3K. That means street prices around $2500. We'll see 720p DLP projectors and projection TVs with street prices under $1K within 18 months--guaranteed. You're telling me 1080p downconverted to 720p on a 100" diagonal screen won't be visibly superior to DVD? You must not have seen HD on such a display. I have. It's beautiful.
5. BluRay will likely be recordable right out of the gate, or soon thereafter.
6. JVC can push D-VHS all they want. Consumers will not go back to tape. Ever.

Pairing HD-DVD or BluRay with projectors and large screens at attainable prices will result in what movie fans have wanted for decades: a true theater-quality presentation right in your living room.

There are three primary reasons manufacturers and studios are pushing these new formats out now, at the height of DVD's popularity:

1. The traditional manufacturers are getting killed by the Chinese with $40 DVD players. Releasing a new format means new, expensive hardware they can profit from.

2. It's a race. The HD-DVD camp and the BluRay camp are driving each other. Neither can take the chance of waiting. If one were to get a significant head start, the other might never recover.

3. The display technology is reaching mass-market pricing, and consumers will want the video playback hardware to drive these displays. Big selling opportunity.

DVD will continue to be a huge cash cow for the studios and will remain the standard video format for many consumers for the next decade. HD-DVD/BluRay will be like laserdisc for the time being, a niche format to appeal to videophiles. BUT...it will spend only a short time in the shadows. With playback hardware debuting in the $1K range and software only a little bit more expensive than DVDs, it won't take long for prices to drop--just in time for the arrival of affordable digital displays.

I'm looking forward to it. Should be lots of fun.
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And then you get people like me who had a hard time justifying the spending of $500 on a 27" flat screen TV. I'll be waiting for it to drop well below the "$1K range" before I even consider investing.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
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Kevin A
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How about a 37" LCD or plasma for $500?

Give it a couple years.
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Well, maybe a 34" widescreen LCD in that approximate range. It's hard to predict these things.

As I said, DVD will remain the standard for many people for many years. The higher-end stuff will trickle down to the lower price brackets eventually.
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Is LCD a flat panel? Or is that something else altogether.

I know the prices will go down. But it'll just take a lot of justification on my part to warrant upgrading. I'm not a big A/V freak. I just like to be able to watch my movies and that's that. But if that's a flat panel for that price, yeah, I'd be all over it simply because of the savings of space. I hate how big (front to back) and heavy my 27" flat screen is, but the picture is spectacular. I love no longer worrying about curved screens and only being able to see it at certain angles. With this one I could be sitting at 5 degrees off the plane that is parallel to the screen and still see the whole picture. I love it.

I know it will take some time to drop down in price and really catch on. That's what I do. I'm a wait and see kind of guy. I'll sit out the format wars to see what happens. Wait for prices to drop a bit before investing. I just don't think HD will have the high rate of acceptance of SD-DVD and I don't know if the equipment prices will drop quite so dramatically so quickly.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
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Kevin A
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Yeah, if you're the type of guy who just wants a good picture and isn't too concerned about making a huge thing out of it, these product announcements aren't going to do much for you.

I get into it because I spend a disproportionate amount of my income on such things compared to most people. When a DLP projector goes from $8K to $3K, it's a big deal to me because I just saved a ton of money, but if you wouldn't even consider spending $3K, who cares?

I was referring to flat panels when I said "LCD". Plasmas are going to be a better deal for a while though. You can get a 37" widescreen plasma for about $1500 today. Now that's an EDTV model (848x480, perfect for 480p DVD playback), but even those are nice. I had a 42" EDTV plasma for a while, and DVDs looked stunning. And, despite the lower resolution, HD looked really awesome as well.

Imagine what they'll cost in two years.
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Originally posted by: Bossk
And then you get people like me who had a hard time justifying the spending of $500 on a 27" flat screen TV. I'll be waiting for it to drop well below the "$1K range" before I even consider investing.



AND THAT'S WHAT IS GOING TOO DELAY HD-DVD/BLU RAY IN THE MASS MARKET.

"I'VE GROWN TIRED OF ASKING, SO THIS WILL BE THE LAST TIME..."
The Mangler Bros. Psycho Dayv Armchaireviews Notes on Suicide

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Depends what you consider "mass market". HDTVs are selling very, very well right now. If you bought an HDTV, wouldn't you want to feed it HD-quality content?
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Pergo (sp?) flooring for us if we get a nice return.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
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Kevin A
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I didn't necessarily mean Pergo flooring in and of itself so much as I meant the idea of putting down the tongue-and-groove wood flooring. Should we actually start a tax return thread and get this one back on topic?
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
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Kevin A
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Jay, your argument is too complicated. When you record on DVD-R you often face the problems of a pausing during playback, this also occurs with a lot of commercial discs, especially those which have been poorly pressed. I went through two copies of one DVD I bought before I got a third, working copy of it. D-VHS does not have that problem, consumers can watch a pause-free playback, guaranteed. The potential of the format is huge. If it is marketed correctly, I do believe the market would adopt it over Blu-Ray/HD-DVD.

I'm not arguing that it's a better format, no ... just that it's a more consumer-friendly format, one that will satisfy more consumers.
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Originally posted by: DanielB
Jay, your argument is too complicated. When you record on DVD-R you often face the problems of a pausing during playback, this also occurs with a lot of commercial discs, especially those which have been poorly pressed. I went through two copies of one DVD I bought before I got a third, working copy of it. D-VHS does not have that problem, consumers can watch a pause-free playback, guaranteed. The potential of the format is huge. If it is marketed correctly, I do believe the market would adopt it over Blu-Ray/HD-DVD.

I'm not arguing that it's a better format, no ... just that it's a more consumer-friendly format, one that will satisfy more consumers.


So you're saying people would go back to all the negative aspects of tape just to avoid the layer change? That's absurd.

I'm also hoping that this time around manufacturers build HD-DVD/BluRay players with enough buffer space and fast enough decoders to allow seamless layer changes. There are a few DVD players that are capable of this now.

It doesn't matter how well they market D-VHS. Most consumers love their shiny little discs and want nothing to do with tape. D-VHS never had any hope of being anything other than a niche format.

I briefly owned a D-VHS deck and would've kept it had the film library been more extensive. The primary reason I bought it was to record HD cable broadcasts, but Comcast didn't offer a FireWire output on the box in my area, so it was useless to me. Even without a decent library, it would've been worth keeping just for this reason.

It's a nice little format, but to say it could defeat BluRay/HD-DVD with some good marketing is silly.

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Originally posted by: PSYCHO_DAYV
KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE YOU POST.


Good advice.
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Originally posted by: PSYCHO_DAYV
IT'S NOT THE DVD THAT IS CAUSING THE PAUSE. IT'S THE PLAYER. SOME PLAYERS DON'T HAVE PROBLEMS WITH THE DUAL LAYER CHANGE. SOME DO. KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE YOU POST.
Dude, I'm not talking about the layer change, I'm talking about problems associated with: burning to lower-quality DVD-R's (even if they're good quality discs), problems associated with disc-rot (I returned a disc to the publisher due to rot and they never sent me a replacement, in the end I sent them a letter complaining about it and they eventually sent me a replacement - which by law they were required to do, and I might add that the title had become OOP), glue-setting (I'm convinced the glue had not set on the two copies of the same title I was forced to return to the store), labelling discs with stickers. Scratches, smudge-marks, dust etc. To talk about the two discs I had to return - they both stopped at the same point in the movie (a movie I had not previously seen!) The manager from the store I bought it said he'd had more than 20 returns from that product!

I eventually got a working copy from another store. Their instore-players had no problem playing the poor quality discs, but if you looked at them you could see the glue had not set - the manager agreed. It was one of those things that wouldn't effect every DVD-player, however the quality was still unacceptable.

-edit- and just so you know that it wasn't just my DVD-player, I tested the discs and they paused in my computer at the same points. The drive I was using was a 2-month old LiteOn DVD Burner.