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Green screen, CGI and the 'Minute' documentary from ROTS

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Greetings...after lurking on the boards for several months, I've finally decided to start interacting with you all. Like many of you, I have been a huge Star Wars fan for my entire life and am rather conflicted about the PT and the rennovated OT. I spend an unfortunate amount of time ruminating over what was, what is, and what could have been.

One thing I've been thinking quite a bit about is the use of CGI and blue (now green) screen in films. This has been particularly on my mind after watching the 'In a Minute' (or whatever it was called) documentary included with ROTS, wherein a minute of the final light saber duel is broken down into its creation from the very beginning. Honestly, it made me even more conflicted about the PT, being as it highlights the insane amount of work that goes into producing just one minute of footage. I must say that I felt inclined to give credit where it is due and admit that, while I still feel that the script and dialogue and directing nearly completely fails in these films, there is still an incredible amount of talent behind their creation. I don't think many folks would question that. At the same time, the complete waste of resources and time and energy in order to make possible the integration of CGI and, well, the actors (since there is little otherwise 'real' in the films, save some props and occasional backgrounds) makes me want to just say, 'Thats it - I am finished with Star Wars. Game over.'

Several things about the documentary made me think of this...Lucas acts with such concern for the smallest details while largely ignoring the glaring problems with the dialogue, acting, believability, etc. For example, in the scene on Mustafar, both Anakin and Obi Wan had 40+ versions of their costumes, each showcasing further wear and tear as the battle goes on and their clothing interacts with their environment. There is actually progressing amounts of 'burns' to the clothing that had to be kept track of...nevermind that they're fighting in what would appear to be unbearable heat and barely notice. Nevermind that they only sweat slightly despite massive amounts of physical exertion near a spewing RIVER OF LAVA. Their outfits, all 40 (well, 80 between them), tell that story. And I would imagine the story those outfits tell is an expensive one. It just seems like an incredible amount of waste to create that many outfits for a minute of action.

Which brings me to another aspect of the documentary...the green screen. The entire scene is basically shot onto green screen. I need to watch it again, but I believe the entirety of the section where they are battling on the piece of the building that eventually falls into the lava was green. Entire sets were built to the scale and details of the structures in the scenes, but instead of being painted the way they would appear in the movie, they were painted green so that those details could be later 'perfected' by the CGI artists. Am I the only person who finds this completely insane? They build the actual sets, but basically didn't use them except as physical spaces for the actors to 'interact' with. Not only does this showcase where the emphasis in the process lies (more concern for the CGI than the actors), but I would imagine that this makes it very very very difficult to act. You are given dialogue, maybe thrown in with another actor or two (a lot of filming between actors is done without them both in the same room at the same time), and told to act out a scene without any environment. Granted, this is what actors are trained and paid to do: act (read: pretend) in an artificial space. But to be completely removed from any sort of sense of the surrounding space that will later be integrated seems like it would be really difficult. So I wonder whether a lot of the acting and poorly executed dialogue in the PT's is a result of this environment. Case and point: Liam Neeson (an incredibly talented actor) has openly blamed a lot of his 'stiff' acting from the first film on this. Furthermore, it probably seems a bit demoralizing when considering the above point about emphasis on effects rather than acting. A quote from Neeson:

"I was wearing a wig and hair, and the resin glue that they use for the wig was awful. I mean it immediately crystallized and became white, the colour of a white tablecloth, like talcum powder, and very, very visible. So my makeup lady kept coming out in the heat, and I kept saying, "C'mon, c'mon, touch this up, touch this up." Finally, she says, "Liam, when this film comes out, no one is going to be looking at you. See that empty space there beside your head? That's where they are going to be looking (i.e. at the special effects)." Then she says to me, "Liam, you could be a monkey smoking a pipe, and it wouldn't matter when The Phantom Menace comes out and no one's going to be looking at you with all those special effects George Lucas' people are going insert later." That was a real blow to my ego because I realized she was probably right. That actors are secondary to all the computer stuff in this movie."

Sure, there was blue screen work on the original films...but in those cases it seemed more a blending of actual shots, or painted backgrounds, or model sets. In other words, blending physical objects with one another... all of which contributes to the realism of the films. I just have such a hard time believing that the emphasis was THAT much on getting CGI into the movies...squeezing it into every single shot, supersaturating it to the point that people like my dad will forgive its total overall shittiness because there are a few great moments of special effects.



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Wow, I just reread that and realize I sound like a totally idiot...thats what I get for typing it over the course of 3 hours while doing other stuff.

You'll probably get what I mean though.
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I agree. "Graphics do not a movie make."

I mean sure, they had the same problems...sorta... during the filming of ESB. Mark Hamill was concerned on how he came off in the scene and everyone else was worried about the snake not moving or the smoke machine not working. But at least they came back to Mark to see how his acting held up. In the PT, they just swept it under the rug and it shows.

Acting is about pretending but is about becoming a new character. It's not so much about "make-believe" and imagination. I pretended all the time. I imagine myself as a hero on an amazing journey, but I'm just playing around in the back yard. You put me in a blank green room and my acting skills suddenly suck and my reaction to that evil lord (the tree in the back yard) is really lame.

You can't become a good character and react to something that isn't there. You can see that in TPM too. You've got Ewan looking at something just above Jar Jar's head, but not exactly looking at him. Or most of the time they are looking in Jar Jar's direction, but they are looking THROUGH him, not AT him.
"I am altering the movies. Pray I don't alter them any further." -Darth Lucas
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gethedgical-

You hardly sound like an idiot and that was one of the most interesting and spot-on posts I've read in some time. I haven't seen the documentary in question yet (as I still have a hard time talking myself into buying ROTS) but you point out what I've suspected all along. And I totally agree with you about the cost and trouble of set building and costume making- ridiculous levels of trouble and detail for such sophmoric and heartless final product.

Reading your post reminded me of another facet of my life- I've gotten really into 'home haunting' for Halloween to the point of spending much time geeking out over building elaborate creepy decorations to put out in my front yard for Halloween. Lest I seem like I digress... ... there's a rule of thumb that home haunters try to follow that addiction to craft can quickly erase- darkness forgives all. The idea being that no matter how many weeks you spend tweaking your fake zombie body or fake tombstone to make it look uber-realistic the trick-or-treaters will be coming to your house at night- in the dark- and only spending a few minutes. The best 'special effects' can be a quick coat of paint on a piece of cardboard instead of an elaborate $1000 prop that you stay awake for 6 days straight tweaking. Less is often more when it comes to embellishment and if it doesn't help your overall scene... well, then, you're screwed.

Many threads have talked about how the PT seems less 'real' than the OT and this is for the very reasons you bring up. Heck I was even just today watching ADM's edit of ROTS and found myself wishing he would have cut MORE 'dialogue' out of the film. I use the ' 's because I don't even consider most of it dialogue- its simply the characters stating what is going on around them. Now GL has been taken to task for this before but a few line of C3PO dialogue (ie 'Oh look there's Capt. Solo still frozen in carbonite!'... no sh*t, Sherlock!) but it runs rampant in the PT. My only guess is that that was GL's attempt to help the actors have SOMETHING to react to (maybe if I make them *say* what they're seeing I won't have to interact with them as actors!).

And still, with all the technical tweaking the ILM team does, some of the effect shots (or more specifically composite shots) still look like they were made by one of us at home. Look at the scene where Anakin and Obi go to meet the politicians after recusing Palps- the head-and-shoulder shots of Palps (with Lucas' daughter and crew standing behind him) and Sam Jackson talking are ATROCIOUSLY matted. I expected to see a green outline around them. And everyone in the background during the conversation shots are squeezed so tightly together and just doing nothing its laughable. But I bet that if we could zoom into the 63rd ship from the left during the space battle we could have seem individually rendered fingernails on the middle clone trooper. Aaarrgggghhh.
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I do feel that Lucas went a little overboard with CG. CG is something that, IMHO, should be used in moderation, and ONLY when absolutely necessary. I think all things should first be attempted using all of the original techniques, and where it is by all means impossible, the filmmakers should resort to CG. I was reminded of this when I watched Terminator 2 again tonight. It was made in the early 90's, when all of this CG stuff was beginning. Cameron seemed to seamlessly use "real" methods and CG, while maintaining a satisfying story and bringing good performances from his actors.

What I find hilarious is in the booklet for the Extreme DVD edition, Van Ling explains of his dislike of modern filmmakers who use an extreme amount of CG in their work. It seemed as if he was subtely making a comment on Lucas. HA!
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I guess part of my reason for posting this comes from having watched both the first Chronicles of Narnia film and King Kong in the past 3 days during my holiday break from work... While I didn't think Chronicles of Narnia was a particularly great film, the CGI was, relatively, more tasteful than the effects-fest that was King Kong...I am reminded once again of my constant remark that, 'As Star Wars has taught of late, CGI does not a movie make...'

The thing is that I've seen films recently that use CGI in a tasteful way. Serenity, for example. Real backgrounds, real sets. Space footage done in CGI, but all has the sort of dark mis-en-scene that Lord of the Rings does, so as to make tasteful the CGI moments integrated with models/actors/sets. Both LOTR and Serenity are films that I feel use CGI in a productive and tasteful way.
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I would compare acting in a green room with something everyone can relate to: Imagine playing with your StarWars toys - without having them (i.e. you have to pretend you play with your StarWars toys).

That would have sucked for me big time as a kid. We constructed a lot of stuff that didn't exist as a toy out of styrofoam or cardboard and most of the time it didn't look as good as the toys - but we had an environment that would inspire our imaginations (we built the emperor's throne room for example). So I don't really envy the actors at all and I can imagine the difficulties.

Yet, in my opinion there's another thing that gets in the way of creative acting: The respect for something as big as StarWars. Back in ANH, no one knew or cared about what kind of weird nerd movie they were making, and thus dared to improvise a lot and all in all took the whole thing more lightly - the very thing that gave Lucas so much headaches.

I highly doubt any prequel actor dared to say "You may be able to write this stuff, George - but you sure as hell can't act on it.", like Harrison Ford did. Back then Lucas was forced to respect the actors' creativity and talent for improvisation.

Oh and gethedical, the best example of the hours and hours wasted in highly detailed cgi environments, is the "Order 66" scene. You see quite a few planets - and from the webdocumentaries I knew about the incredible amount of work and time that went into them - alas, you only see them for a few split seconds.

There wasn't enough time in ROTS to dwell long enough on important things and a lot of time was even wasted for stupid slapstick scenes - a thing no one did expect in "the darkest chapter of the saga".
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Originally posted by: Master Sifo-Dyas

There wasn't enough time in ROTS to dwell long enough on important things and a lot of time was even wasted for stupid slapstick scenes - a thing no one did expect in "the darkest chapter of the saga".


Eh, a small amount of moments like those are usually needed, and ROTS, IMHO, had just the right amount.
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I'm reminded of a behind the scenes green screen shot with Padme getting out of a car. Only the "car" was three green boxes and, the rest of the "set" was one room of green. I don't see why they choose not to build the transports that they're supposed to be in. Then, I'm reminded of a comment I read about George Lucas basically saying that he pushed himself to do more then a shy person could do. Hence, saying that he was shy as, well. So mabye the reason he uses all this green screen stuff and, tries to make the actors go "faster and, more intense". Is because he's shy and, wants to not have to direct the actors for long periods of time.

In regards to the CGI in TPM you can see a leftover of the cue that Liam got in Watto's shop. When he says "My droid has a read out of all we need." You can see him turn like he was told Watto would be there. This is purely my assumption though but, it sure does look like it. It's funny that in the documentary he worries about Jar Jar's eye's going forward but, not that the shot is un-needed in the scene.


http://twister111.tumblr.com
Previous Signature preservation link

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Originally posted by: Adamwankenobi
Eh, a small amount of moments like those are usually needed, and ROTS, IMHO, had just the right amount.
Seems we have fundamental disagreement on that one. The first 10 to 15 minutes of the film were one big joke in my eyes. Droid soldiers acting like they were reprogrammed by "No 5" (in this film they call him General Grievous) to act like the three stooges, lame "homage" to The Matrix with a "funny" version of the squiddies and every fighter of the droid army making dumb baby noises - sorry, just not my idea of "just the right amount".

I liked the old school style StarWars bickering between Obi-Wan and Anakin, but in the context of uncreative R2 jokes it just didn't catch on anymore (would they just have stuck with the R2 and the elevator joke and Obi-Wan and Anakin bickering a bit, that might have been more like my idea of "just right").

Oh well, probably they'll add fart jokes to ANH's Battle of Yavin in the 2007 editions to "lighten it up a bit".
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Originally posted by: twister111So mabye the reason he uses all this green screen stuff and, tries to make the actors go "faster and, more intense". Is because he's shy and, wants to not have to direct the actors for long periods of time.
Yes, there is a good amount of truth to this as far as Lucas' statements from interviews and making-of documentaries are concerned. His dream is to have some sort of "magic wand" that just lets him turn his story ideas into a film he can frankenstein on until he deems it finished - without the need of money, actors and all the other things usually required to make a film these days (i.e. getting rid of all the parts of the filmmaking process that gave him a headache during the production of the classic trilogy).

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Originally posted by: Master Sifo-Dyas
Originally posted by: Adamwankenobi
Eh, a small amount of moments like those are usually needed, and ROTS, IMHO, had just the right amount. Seems we have fundamental disagreement on that one. The first 10 to 15 minutes of the film were one big joke in my eyes. Droid soldiers acting like they were reprogrammed by "No 5" (in this film they call him General Grievous) to act like the three stooges, lame "homage" to The Matrix with a "funny" version of the squiddies and every fighter of the droid army making dumb baby noises - sorry, just not my idea of "just the right amount".


droids... make... my... head... hurt... sooo... soooo... bad....

Oh well, probably they'll add fart jokes to ANH's Battle of Yavin in the 2007 editions to "lighten it up a bit".


"Awww Geez Porkins- WHAT did you have for lunch?!?!?!?"
"I don't know but 'Brown Leader' is prarie-dogging it! Let's get a move on!"
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Great topic, and I'm absolutely agreeing with everybody stating the overuse of CGI in the prequel trilogy.

There are a few examples which REALLY make me scratch my head... for example, why didn't they build a single clone-trooper costume? They were all digital, but why?? Even in the scenes where they aren't wearing helmets, they've just tracked Temuera Morrison's head onto a digital clone-trooper body (horribly, by the way) or used an all digital head (even more horrible), which makes absolutely no sense, and is another huge waste of resources.

Or just take Padme falling out of the transporter onto the sand dune (in AOTC)... they've created digital sand and digital footprints in the sand... uhm... again... WHY?? Would it have been so expensive or logistically difficult to put a truckload of real sand onto the set? And again, in this scene Portman had to act with an all digital clone-trooper...

And if I remember correctly it wasn't Neeson alone complaining, it was McGregor as well... acting in front of nothing, towards nothing... I bet he's glad the trilogy is done.
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I would love to sit down with one of the Prequel films and view every take for every scene filmed to examine,compare and contrast the takes Lucas chooses over the unused ones.

Just guessing here, but I'll bet a minimum of 50% of the time he passes over what we would view as obvious superior takes for inferior acted ones...not on purpose, I just think his taste in acting performance is as far from a perfectionist as Ed Wood is to Martin Scorsese..yet as you guys have said he'll turn around and put so much of his focus into what costumes, spaceship and CG Alien design.

For the OT, Lucas did a wonderful job of finding actors that had charisma and interacted so well with one another everyone seemed like a big family....I'm not sure what happened while casting for the prequels, but there are hardly any of those essential elements there...I never remember cringing in a theater when Han and Leia started having a conversation, but for Hayden and Portman's scenes I was praying half the time that it would just end before I sawed my left arm off.

Shooting everything out of sequence, directing from behind monitors, and having eveyone stand in a blue or green room trying to emote in imaginary environments to imaginary people aren't the most ideal conditions for any actor... add to that miscast actors and a poor screenplay, is it any wonder.



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Originally posted by: Master Sifo-Dyas
Originally posted by: twister111So mabye the reason he uses all this green screen stuff and, tries to make the actors go "faster and, more intense". Is because he's shy and, wants to not have to direct the actors for long periods of time.
Yes, there is a good amount of truth to this as far as Lucas' statements from interviews and making-of documentaries are concerned. His dream is to have some sort of "magic wand" that just lets him turn his story ideas into a film he can frankenstein on until he deems it finished - without the need of money, actors and all the other things usually required to make a film these days (i.e. getting rid of all the parts of the filmmaking process that gave him a headache during the production of the classic trilogy).


I have a quote I keep in my sig at another star wars board"

"I have a sneaking suspicion that if there were a way to make movies without actors, George Lucas would do it." -Mark Hamill

I believe every word of it.


Has anyone seen Drew Carrey's "Green Screen Show"? Now that is some funny stuff!! I die laughing every time I see it, and the acting is 100 times better than what the cast did for the PT. Those guys are acting against nothing too, but they are hilarious! The people in the PT are funny too, but they are not supposed to be...

You an tell when they use props and when they use CGI too and it DRIVES ME NUTS!! Like in AOTC. You see Obi-Wan landing on the rainy platform on Camino. His ship lands, it's all CGI. Next frame, he's getting out of his ship and now it's a real prop!! You can tell by the way the water runs off the ship and the way the lights reflect of the wet windshield. It looks real because it is real. You look at the wet and rainy CGI and you and tell it's just graphics. And I hate it.

"I am altering the movies. Pray I don't alter them any further." -Darth Lucas
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Another reason why I am so baffled by the CGI in these films is that I recently read through the 'Art of Episode III' book...I recommend that anyone do the following: open the first 10 or so pages, and compare those pages with the last 10 pages (where the actual scenes are displayed)... There is so much imagination in the artwork for the films, so many potential scenes that just never became part of the films... I really wish that there would have been an emphasis on making the films more epic (as they appear in the artwork) and fantastic, but not at the expense of creating needless details such as the always-moving skyline in EVERY SINGLE BACKGROUND of the Coruscant shots or creating an entire planet completely from scratch, such as in the Mustafar scenes. I wonder whether creating more of the worlds seen during the Order 66 sequence would have led to more shitty CGI or a better story... One of my biggest complaints with the prequels and that sequence is that the Jedi Masters are killed and, while I thought the sequence was an emotional one, I don't know a single one of their names. Why weren't they more than just additional props in the films?

Ugh. Sorry, I have all these things I've wanted to talk about with people for so long so they're all sort of bleeding back into this discussion.
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I think the distinction between acting in front of a green screen and acting against a green screen should be noted.

Actors should have no problem being in front of a green screen. I have seen more plays with minimalist sets than with elaborately-constructed sets; the fact that Elsinore was nothing more than three columns didn't screw up Hamlet, nor did reducing Rome to a single ladder screw up Caesar's eulogy. As John Rhys-Davies said in the RotK commentary, (paraphrase) We are actors, we are paid to live and work in the imagination, this is what we do (end paraphrase). I would expect any A-grade actor, supported by his or her director, to do green screen work nearly equal to his or her on-set or on-location work.

That caveat, of course, is key. As an actor is asked to imagine more outlandish premises, he will need more direction. I'm sure if Liam Neeson were told to act out a situation from a well-established play/movie or something from one's common experience, he could do it on autopilot in front of a green screen. He could be a taxi driver, or a passenger on an airplane, or an alien abductee. Everyone knows what you do in that situation, even if you've never driven a taxi or been on an airplane. But it's much harder when one is told, "You'll be playing the hologram of a Jedi master projected from Tatooine to Coruscant," or whatever. Do you play it as if you're in the room, talking to people face-to-face? Or do you adopt a more formal, telephonic demeanor? Are you comfortable, or trying to finish the conversation quickly? Is the transmission crystal-clear, or are there reception problems? Is there lag? Etc, &c.

And I'm sure acting against a green screen -- or a tennis ball, or what-have-you -- is much harder than even that.
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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I agree and that's why I try to blame the actors as little as possible for these mistakes. I know that Liam, Ewan and Natalie are excellent actors given the right situations and guidence. I haven't seen Hayden in anything else and have no idea based on AOTC or ROTS if he has potential to be a good actor- there were too many variables against him. What was probably needed to meet GL's new style of filmmaking were not so much 'actors' as people good at improv- that's why 'The Green Screen Show' (or either version of 'Who's Line Is It Anyhow' for that matter) work so well. A good improv artist usually ONLY has the very vaguest of ideas thrown at them and usually NO props and have to not only create an entire 'world' to themselves but ALSO have to believably project that world to an audience. Of course GL wouldn't have liked people running with his ideas like they do in improv but the performances would have been so much better.

That and some actors are just used to it. Ian McDiarmid is not a better actor than any of the other of the cast and yet to me he comes off just thatmuch more skilled- but then again its old hat to him. He's played the role, he knows GL's style and he seems comfortable just saying and doing whatever.

And as far as the tennis ball, Tom Hanks did pretty well with a volleyball for a co-star.
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I too try to blame the actors as little as possible. I don't know Hayden personally, but I'm sure he is a fine person. I have a cousin who saw him in another film and said that his acting was way better in the other film. ROTS just totally screwed him over.

It almost seems like Lucas only had one or two takes on most of the dialogue in the film. Maybe once for rehersal, a second time, and then a third time to make sure that they said all the words in the script. I don't think that any emphasis was placed on HOW the words were spoken.

GL: "Okay, twirl your saber! Good! Now look to your left, look to your right! Now pause, good, walk forward. Cut! Okay, good, that was good."

HC: "Uhh, what exactly were we filming?"

GL: "Oh this was on mustifar when you see Obi-Wan coming at you."

HC: " 'Kay... so what was I supposed to be doing? Was I angry? Determined? Planning my attack? What?"

GL: "You were about to engage in the fight. You were fine, we'll fix it in editing if there are any problems."
"I am altering the movies. Pray I don't alter them any further." -Darth Lucas
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i really think the acting came off bad because these films were too serious, which is really death for these kind of films
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One of Natalie's worst delivered lines I thought was Ep I on Coruscant "We must do something quickly to stop the Federation." On The Beginning, I believe that scene is shown to be filmed first and then we see George talking about how great of an actor Natalie is, having only needed two takes for that scene. George just can't distinguish good dialog from bad, it's all the same to him while slight cg differences will be glaringly obvious to him. He probably can't even tell the difference between Boba Fett's new and old voice.

Take back the trilogy. Execute Order '77

http://www.youtube.com/user/Knightmessenger

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Heh.

Well, films these days just blow chunks, it's all freakin' Massive armies and stupid looking digital characters. They're all guilty - take a good long hard look at Lord of the Rings (all 3 of them). The 1st movie had some whoppers in it, I tell you - like that shot on the mountain, the heroic fanfare plays and they walk past badly-composited mountains in the background and it looks like *dreck*.

Then there's The Two Towers, right off the bat you have that silly battle with the Balrog (looks ridiculous, I've never understood modern filmmaking fascination with 'digital doubles') & that pathetic shot of Legolas leaping up onto a horse (what the hell was with that? On the DVD they talked about it like it was really good, I thought they were joking but no - no punchline) and how's about the end battle? Gandalf at the top of a hill (if you look at the grass on the hill, you can see someone has been Clone-Stamping it in Photoshop). Nevermind the shot where he says 'the Battle for Helms Deep is over'. If you want bad compositing, look no further than that shot.

Return of the King... thinking... there was a lot of good stuff in this movie, like the first two, but my word some things were rotten. Like that boneheaded sequence where Legolas takes down the big elephant thing. Again - why do they think I want to watch someone render Legolas out of Poser and make him leap around like an idiot? This guy has absolutely nothing on Errol Flynn. To wit, Errol Flynn (digital or not) would walk onto screen and kick his arse.

I won't even bother with Star Wars, you've all hit the nail on the head already. But I thought I'd remind ye all - the problems aren't confined to one movie. This CGI crap is everywhere.
VADER: Let me look on you with my own eyes...

LUKE: Dad, where are your eyebrows?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WO_S6UgkQk0
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But "CGI crap" is so easy to overlook when watching a well-written, well-played, well-scored movie.

Oh, and just because I've been waiting to use this:

Some say Darth Plagueis had the ability to influence the midiclorians to create life. He could actually keep old threads from dying.
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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Originally posted by: Scruffy
But "CGI crap" is so easy to overlook when watching a well-written, well-played, well-scored movie. I agree on that. Although I didn't like the new King Kong very much, I have to acknowledge it is a very well done homage to the old black and white film and Kong was really impressive - to my eyes it was a real creature.
Some say Darth Plagueis had the ability to influence the midiclorians to create life. He could actually keep old threads from dying.
Haha