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"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself. It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005
Global Warming — Page 7
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Let's go with an extreme situation first: If you were to kill another person in an absolutely clear case of self defense (where your life would be in totally imminent danger and where you had no option but to respond with lethal force to save your own life), would killing in that event mean that you devalue life? Would your personal integrity fall apart? Or, would saving your own life (using lethal force to stop evil harm) actually prove that you value your life (by defending it)?
Originally posted by: Darth_Evil
EDIT: Great Posts Tiptup and CO.
EDIT: Great Posts Tiptup and CO.
First, thank you. Second, I think you meant Dug and not CO (though both of them use the same avatar and make similarly intelligent posts).
I like what you and a lot of others are saying here. You're all effectively making good arguments. Though I tend to have a very nitpicking sort of perspective on reality and felt I should briefly voice some my opinions since nobody else was stating them exactly as I would.
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Originally posted by: WESHALLPRESERVE
Exactly--Why don't you read mein kamf Arnie---he devotes CHAPTERS TO THE AMERICA! "The Great Beast" and "Final Battle"....hell, I guess I do know more.
Exactly--Why don't you read mein kamf Arnie---he devotes CHAPTERS TO THE AMERICA! "The Great Beast" and "Final Battle"....hell, I guess I do know more.
If you tell me which volume and chapters I'll read it.
Before the war started it was well known Hitler wanted Europe, Brittain could have the rest of the world. Problem was Brittain didn't agree. He also never ment to go to war with Russia (at least this is what I remeber from history lessons from a long time ago, not that I want to hide behind it).
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
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1939-Hiterle Invades Poland Yada yada---He takes over everyththing west of Germany (or Deutchland) but Britan. Who was re-supplying Britan EVERY day with weapons, food, ammo and supplies? We were? Who was getting merchant ships attacked bu U-Boats everyday? We were--Even if Japan had not attacked us, do you honestly, think that Germany would have just sopped at England? Hell know, they had U-Boats at the waters beyone New York, taking note of Millitary movements! Yes, he also did not want to go to Russia, and it was one of the greatest blunnders because he was not prepared for that 2 front war everyone in German was afraid of--They lost WWI Because of that-Hitler just made some huge tactical errors--some of which---Keeping beyond Moscow in a snow storm, to try to "starve" the Russians out. What he really did was get the Russians inside to get guns for every child and person over the age of 13--------D-Day, becausde of his stupidity, he could not release a 4th Panzer Division (I beleive) to the shores of Normandy to counter the sea-borne invasion. You wonder why you dont see german armor there don't you?
Again, how could Hitler maintain his Reich with the Freest country in the world across the pond? Do you actualy beleive that he was gonna ignore us for 1000 years, or we ignore him? How could that happen?
Although I learned most about Mein Kampf (My Mind) though various Hisrory Chanel Specials,
Heres the whole guide you need:
http://nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm
http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/2807/emhitler.html
All though this is not the text, Volume 2, Chapt. 10 makes a big note of America, although I remember him devoteing an entire chapter to Amerika, as its spelled, that could have been in his un-unpublished (durring wwII) version of mind kampf II.
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OK, I have the book so I'll check out vol. 2 chapter 10 right now. Ah here it is, chapter X, The Mask of Federalism.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
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If the "great beast" and "great battle" appear only in a second+ draft written during the war (and never even published) maybe that show that he had no plans to go to war with the US in his original vision (from before the war). I still believe before the war Hitler only wanted Europe and he thought Brittain could have the rest of the world. During the war that might have changed ofcourse and it is likely he would be preparing for a final battle with the US.
Edit: A funny video that fits well in this thread.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
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"We" as in liberals? Who is saying that? Conservatives are not criminalizing liberals, we're questioning your judgment, and how on one hand you can say one thing, and then on the other say another which makes you major hypocrites. How can a liberal promote the feminist faction of their political wing, and the women march in the streets and burn their bras and says men are suppressing them and they're howling and crying, but on the other hand have NO PROBLEM with the treatment of Islamic women and their suppression? How can they conceivably cry and whine that America is committing "crimes against humanity?" That just boggles my mind. That position is indefensible! You have no integrity with this stance.
I'm pointing out your flawed logic. I don't want to stick you in jail for an idea. If you were committing crimes such as murder, rape, theft---then yes, I want to stick you in jail or whatever punishment is deserved to those who commit those crimes. Immediately, again, that knee-jerk reaction of "oh, you want to turn this country into a police state!" Good grief.
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On the other hand, seeing a huge guy in the bar who keeps looking in your direction and insulting you under his breath, even saying that he would love to see you dead, isn't a good enough reason to go over there and hit him over the head with something that could kill him. Now the second that guy rushes you with a weapon brandished, kill away and feel good about it.
To me that's the fundamental reason why the way we went about invading Iraq was morally unjustified.
Now does that mean I'm saying Saddam was a great guy? No. But it's the principal of the matter.
Tiptup, I think it was you who said the war should have been for oil instead of the search for possible weapons of mass destruction. I don't agree with that either, because it operates on the assumption that if Iraq was allowed to spend their own natural resources on weapons, they could become a bigger threat to the US. Again it's a pre-emptive action that we take because it's possible that Iraq will eventually attack the US.
To me that makes us a guy who went over to the large guy talking smack about us in the bar and killed him just to take his wallet. Telling the bartender: "Well it's obvious he would have just used this money to buy a knife and stab me to death, so I had to do what I had to do."
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
On the other hand, seeing a huge guy in the bar who keeps looking in your direction and insulting you under his breath, even saying that he would love to see you dead, isn't a good enough reason to go over there and hit him over the head with something that could kill him. Now the second that guy rushes you with a weapon brandished, kill away and feel good about it.
On the other hand, seeing a huge guy in the bar who keeps looking in your direction and insulting you under his breath, even saying that he would love to see you dead, isn't a good enough reason to go over there and hit him over the head with something that could kill him. Now the second that guy rushes you with a weapon brandished, kill away and feel good about it.
I take it you prefer Greedo shooting first, then?
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If the big guy is pointing a gun at you, and telling you that the idea is to see you dead, I think that's justification enough.
But I can also see how that point could be lost on people who don't bother reading subtitles. Without the subtitles, Greedo might just be taking Han in, not intending to kill him.
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But I can also see how that point could be lost on people who don't bother reading subtitles. Without the subtitles, Greedo might just be taking Han in, not intending to kill him.
rolls eyes
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-TonicOn the other hand, seeing a huge guy in the bar who keeps looking in your direction and insulting you under his breath, even saying that he would love to see you dead, isn't a good enough reason to go over there and hit him over the head with something that could kill him. Now the second that guy rushes you with a weapon brandished, kill away and feel good about it.
To me that's the fundamental reason why the way we went about invading Iraq was morally unjustified.
To me that's the fundamental reason why the way we went about invading Iraq was morally unjustified.
I think that analogy is good on the surface...
Until you see the whole picture. The guy at the bar is insulting you under his breath and saying he wants you dead. In fact, some reports claim he has a basement full of weapons that he may some day use to enact this desire--or that he may hand out to people who will do it for him. It's even a known fact that he once used said weapons in the past... to kill neibourghs, and members of his own household. And though nobody SAW any weapons the last time they visited his house, they were thrown out before they could inspect the entire building. The police have ordered him multiple times to allow the investegators to finish searching his entire home, but he consistently refuses to allow it.
In that case, is it not time to bring the SWAT team in?
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In that case, is it not time to bring the SWAT team in?
I think it's time to go to Defcon 6 and empty the fucking missile silos.....
People of Gomer's mentality simply aren't capable of realizing that tough decisions have to made whether they are morally right or not. When it comes to one's safety and survival, all bets are off. One does whatever they must do to survive from being wiped out.
I think Ah-nold said it best in The Running Man...."I've seen too much? All I've seen is a bunch of low foreheads who think they can change the world with dreams and talk. It's too late for that. If you're not ready to act, then gimme a break and shut up." Wise man....that Ah-nold.
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Btw:That game for PC, Defcon is pretty sick--if you know what I mean--launching missiles at Russia and China never seemed so fun-
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"Nuke 'em before they nuke you....another fun game from Butler Brothers!!!"
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Originally posted by: Cable-X1
I think it's time to go to Defcon 6 and empty the fucking missile silos.....
I think it's time to go to Defcon 6 and empty the fucking missile silos.....
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Originally posted by: Blackmage
Originally posted by: Cable-X1
I think it's time to go to Defcon 6 and empty the fucking missile silos.....
I think it's time to go to Defcon 6 and empty the fucking missile silos.....
Damn....that can't be good news for us. I'll hide behind Gomer. Stab me now!!!!
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Well I appreciate why Lucas felt he needed to clarify that Greedo was intending to kill Han.
If the big guy is pointing a gun at you, and telling you that the idea is to see you dead, I think that's justification enough.
But I can also see how that point could be lost on people who don't bother reading subtitles. Without the subtitles, Greedo might just be taking Han in, not intending to kill him.
Well I appreciate why Lucas felt he needed to clarify that Greedo was intending to kill Han.
If the big guy is pointing a gun at you, and telling you that the idea is to see you dead, I think that's justification enough.
But I can also see how that point could be lost on people who don't bother reading subtitles. Without the subtitles, Greedo might just be taking Han in, not intending to kill him.
Alas, so it all come back to this. I can see now much more depth in this silly debate. To people like Gomer and Lucas, this whole Greedo thing is a matter of integrity. Han couldn't so much as consider killing Greedo with out becoming the bad guy. I have no right to attack the brute in the bar who is saying that in five minutes or so he is going to turn around and shove a pull cue up my rectum and kill me. I have to wait for the first neck breaking blow to come to me before I can throw the first punch. In the real world, that is a wee bit late.
What if Greedo had been a better shot? Han would have been dead. Luke would have had to get a ride to Alderaan from some other pilot, and the Death Star would have destroyed the rebel strong hold.
The whole idea of only attacking in retaliation is a very foolish one. The man at the bar analogy was a bit of a dumb one, because you are in a public place and there are others all around. Nobody would just shoot some big guy in the bar because he was threatening with words. However, let try another analogy, A man breaks into you home, he has a gun, he wakes you and your family up asks for some breakfast and threats to rape your daughter if you don't make it for him. You too have a gun, must you wait for him to shoot your wife or one of your children before you put a bullet into his head?
By your logic, he shoots at your son, misses, and you shoot him while still holding onto your precious integrity. Because we do, in fact live in a perfect world where all bad men are as bad of shots as Mr. Greedo was. I am sure if America ever was nailed by an ICBM, it would miss us and go into the ocean, then we would have every right to attack. But only then? We don't live in a perfect world. That ICBM would land right in the middle of the most populated territory of America, that man who broke into you house would have killed your son. In either case the damage is done.
We fall into this ignorant soft hearted sensitivity. It is not good to go around shooting all potential threats, but there are threats that pose a clear and present. There is the man who calls you on the phone at three in the morning and tells you how much he would like to violate your wife and daughter. Do you just hang up on him and go back to sleep? No. You take action. You don't wait on him to act first, you call the police. Maybe he is just trying to scare you, can you risk it? Now we are looking at this thing from a larger level, on a planetary scale, who are the police that can be called when somebody calls up at 3 am and threatens to hurt America?
Imagine you lived a hundred years ago, a settler perhaps, living out in an obscure area. Somebody threatens to hurt your family. What do you do then? Wait around for it to happen? In this case there are no police to call. By your logic you would do nothing. By mine I would kill the guy first chance I got. You should not go around making threats and not expect anybody to take you seriously. I guess in our overly sensitive age we consider all threats idle threats. Threats are not something to be taken lightly. Neither by the giver or the reciever.
"Every time Warb sighs, an angel falls into a vat of mapel syrup." - Gaffer Tape
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I was saying that the second the big brute is brandishing a weapon it's a whole other matter, and in that case homicide in self-defense is justified.
I'm just saying what we did to Iraq was just declare they were brandishing a wepon, and now it turns out that was an inaccurate assumption on our part.
That's like killing the big guy in a bar who has only verbally threatened you, and telling the police later you thought he was pointing a gun at you.
As far as Han/Greedo, you misunderstood my point there too. I agree that Greedo was pointing a gun at him and telling Han flat out that he planned on killing him, which made Han's first shot entirely justifiable.
The reason I understand why Lucas changed it, is because I could see how a lot of people could have missed the subtitles, and without that, it's not entirely clear the intent was to kill Han, Greedo could have just been trying to "bring him in" for his bounty.
So while I think it was fine originally for me, I could understand why Lucas would want to clarify that better. I know I have heard from a lot of people who were saying Han was cool because he didn't let morals get in his way. If I were Lucas and I heard enough of that, I might think things needed to be clarified too.
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