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What was George Lucas's worst decision with the Star Wars franchise? — Page 4

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f

“I have…I have legs. I have… Oh shit, look at this!”
~ Anakin, probably

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lovelikewinter said:

Is it just me or does almost nothing of importance happen in The Phantom Menace? Anakin is found and Palpatine becomes Chancellor. That’s about it.

I see this complaint often, but it’s a surface level one. No different from saying “Is the only point of Empire to show Luke training and Vader being his father?”, or, "Is Fellowship of the Ring just about Frodo starting to walk towards a mountain?"
The latter examples are a bit extreme but it’s the same sort of principle.
TPM adds to Obi-Wan’s character development and begins to show Palpatine’s rise to power (not just him becoming Chancellor), but how he manipulates those around him, which comes into play more and more in the next two films. It also adds to the development of Anakin and seeing where he originated, which is a big driving force for his actions in AOTC, and in turn, ROTS.
That’s not to say every frame of TPM is super relevant to the trilogy, just that there’s more than surface level plot points.

I mean you can argue it’s all crap and pointless and you’re entitled to your opinion, but it’s a bit unfair to take a couple of main plot points and declare that’s all there is to the movie.

EDIT: Also Lucas’ worst decision is burying the OOT. There’s nothing wrong with there being a SE, but it shouldn’t come at the cost of the originals.
Also selling Star Wars, it’s pretty hypocritical to spend decades championing indie filmmaking and then sell out to the biggest studio there is. Though in saying that though I don’t really blame him for just saying f*** it after a decade of people yelling at him.

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Ryan-SWI said:

EDIT: Also Lucas’ worst decision is burying the OOT. There’s nothing wrong with there being a SE, but it shouldn’t come at the cost of the originals.

You win the thread.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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ATMachine said:

Ryan-SWI said:

EDIT: Also Lucas’ worst decision is burying the OOT. There’s nothing wrong with there being a SE, but it shouldn’t come at the cost of the originals.

You win the thread.

Already stated in the third post of this thread and repeated multiple times, but ok.

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Besides what has already been said (making the SE and PT), I’d say his worst decision was replacing Gary Kurtz. Return of the Jedi could’ve been a lot better if Lucas didn’t have as much of a say in it.

“Always in motion is the future” 🌌

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Depheros said:

Besides what has already been said (making the SE and PT), I’d say his worst decision was replacing Gary Kurtz. Return of the Jedi could’ve been a lot better if Lucas didn’t have as much of a say in it.

He supposedly wanted Spielberg, who couldn’t do it and maintain membership in the directors guild because there were no opening credits.

TV’s Frink said:

I would put this in my sig if I weren’t so lazy.

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George’s worst decision (or perhaps more accurately his biggest mistake) was allowing himself to get sucked into the merchandising machine. Most of the problems people have with the franchise as a whole can be traced back to this.

The development of RoTJ was basically entirely shaped by the toy companies; both Gary Kurtz and David Prowse have confirmed this independently. Rather than focusing on crafting a satisfying dramatic conclusion to the trilogy, the final chapter became little more than a glorified toy advert in George’s eyes.

This was of course followed by the constant re-releases of the trilogy in the late 80s and early 90s, the creation of the EU, the Shadows of the Empire project (which seemed cool at the time but looking back now was a clear exploitation of the fans while not providing anything of any real substance), and of course everything from 1997 onwards. All blatant cash grabs.

It seems to me that George was bored of Star Wars by 1980, but recognised its money making potential and so continued to squeeze as much out of it as possible, to the detriment of the actual story. I find his whole “woe is me” attitude in response to all the flak he got for the SEs and PT a bit rich when he’s done nothing but take advantage of the people who made him rich for the past 25 years.

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as a story teller and director I think his worst decision was to let the effects drive the story, I think this started with Return of the Jedi, by the time Jedi came around it was all about linking big effects sequences and that set the tone for the rest of the saga.

Second worst decision would have to be to starting Anakin’s story as a child

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Judge said:

George’s worst decision (or perhaps more accurately his biggest mistake) was allowing himself to get sucked into the merchandising machine. Most of the problems people have with the franchise as a whole can be traced back to this.

The development of RoTJ was basically entirely shaped by the toy companies; both Gary Kurtz and David Prowse have confirmed this independently. Rather than focusing on crafting a satisfying dramatic conclusion to the trilogy, the final chapter became little more than a glorified toy advert in George’s eyes.

I find this toy selling conspiracy with regards to ROTJ ridiculous. They sold just as much toys for ANH and ESB as they did for ROTJ. People try to point at Ewoks as the main “evidence”, but the fact is that difficulty of getting so many that tall people to play Wookiees (originally intended) is way more reasonable explanation.

It also does not have much weight coming from Kurtz (who was being fired during ESB for incompetence and had nothing to do with ROTJ) and Prowse (who seemed to have be acting as jerk for years before he eventually got banned from LF events).

真実

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imperialscum said:
It also does not have much weight coming from Kurtz (who was being fired during ESB for incompetence and had nothing to do with ROTJ and Prowse (who seemed to have be acting as jerk for years before he eventually got banned from LF events).

Do you have a reliable source for your claim re: Kurtz? I’ve never read or seen anything to suggest he was fired for incompetence, only that he left post-ESB due to creative differences. Even Lucas has never suggested that, despite the clear acrimony between them.

Prowse has been lied to and screwed over by Lucas from day one, so I’m not surprised he was “acting as jerk”. I certainly trust him more than Lucas when it comes to the history of these movies, considering Lucas’ entire version of events has been contradicted by other figures in one way or another over the years. It seems more likely to me that Prowse was banned from LFL events for not sticking to the ‘official story’.

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Judge said:

Prowse has been lied to and screwed over by Lucas from day one, so I’m not surprised he was “acting as jerk”. I certainly trust him more than Lucas when it comes to the history of these movies, considering Lucas’ entire version of events has been contradicted by other figures in one way or another over the years. It seems more likely to me that Prowse was banned from LFL events for not sticking to the ‘official story’.

Nobody is claiming Lucas to be a saint.
But Prowse was in hot water the moment he leaked the ESB twist well before the film ever came out. He was also never hired to voice or physically (as in, out of the suit) play Darth Vader, Lucas just said he might be able to; not to mention he was barely in ROTJ and fired before the mask scene was even filmed. This stuff happens all the time, and that’s hardly being "lied to."
Prowse is not some poor innocent victim nasty old Lucasfilm bullied for fun.

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Judge said:

imperialscum said:
It also does not have much weight coming from Kurtz (who was being fired during ESB for incompetence and had nothing to do with ROTJ and Prowse (who seemed to have be acting as jerk for years before he eventually got banned from LF events).

Do you have a reliable source for your claim re: Kurtz? I’ve never read or seen anything to suggest he was fired for incompetence, only that he left post-ESB due to creative differences.

The film went two times over schedule and two times over budget. I think in film business, that is pretty much the most obvious evidence of producer’s incompetence you can get. Even big studies freak out at even one of those conditions, let alone a newly founded independent studio. Even though this is widely-known information, for reliable source you can refer to Making of ESB by Rinzler.

Even Lucas has never suggested that, despite the clear acrimony between them.

Lucas always seemed to try his best to keep everything private regarding conflicts during OT.

真実

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imperialscum said:
The film went two times over schedule and two times over budget. I think in film business, that is pretty much the most obvious evidence of producer’s incompetence you can get. Even big studies freak out at even one of those conditions, let alone a newly founded independent studio. Even though this is widely-known information, for reliable source you can refer to Making of ESB by Rinzler.

I’m looking for a citation of your original claim here, and I can’t see it. Saying that the film went over schedule and over budget is one thing. It’s an enormous conjectural leap to suggest that Kurtz was fired during production as a result.

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Judge said:

imperialscum said:
The film went two times over schedule and two times over budget. I think in film business, that is pretty much the most obvious evidence of producer’s incompetence you can get. Even big studies freak out at even one of those conditions, let alone a newly founded independent studio. Even though this is widely-known information, for reliable source you can refer to Making of ESB by Rinzler.

I’m looking for a citation of your original claim here, and I can’t see it. Saying that the film went over schedule and over budget is one thing. It’s an enormous conjectural leap to suggest that Kurtz was fired during production as a result.

He was not officially fired before the end of ESB, however he was apparently effectively replaced by Kazanjian. I think it is diplomatically stated so in Making of ESB (it has been a while since I read the book). Also Wikipedia says so: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kurtz#The_Empire_Strikes_Back

真実

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imperialscum said:

Judge said:

imperialscum said:
The film went two times over schedule and two times over budget. I think in film business, that is pretty much the most obvious evidence of producer’s incompetence you can get. Even big studies freak out at even one of those conditions, let alone a newly founded independent studio. Even though this is widely-known information, for reliable source you can refer to Making of ESB by Rinzler.

I’m looking for a citation of your original claim here, and I can’t see it. Saying that the film went over schedule and over budget is one thing. It’s an enormous conjectural leap to suggest that Kurtz was fired during production as a result.

He was not officially fired before the end of ESB, however he was apparently effectively replaced by Kazanjian. I think it is diplomatically stated so in Making of ESB (it has been a while since I read the book). Also Wikipedia says so: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kurtz#The_Empire_Strikes_Back

It seems like Kazanjian was brought in by Lucas just to get the film finished after Kurtz & Kersh spent a bit too much time trying to make it good with no regard to costs. This was, I think, the start of GL’s tendency to surround himself with yes-men in later years - obviously with a view to maximising profit. I guess it depends what you consider the role of the producer to be; make the film as good as possible, or make the film as cheap as possible. Ironic though that Lucas was the one who went back and re-shot most of the film’s final sequence after the film had premiered.

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Judge said:

imperialscum said:

Judge said:

imperialscum said:
The film went two times over schedule and two times over budget. I think in film business, that is pretty much the most obvious evidence of producer’s incompetence you can get. Even big studies freak out at even one of those conditions, let alone a newly founded independent studio. Even though this is widely-known information, for reliable source you can refer to Making of ESB by Rinzler.

I’m looking for a citation of your original claim here, and I can’t see it. Saying that the film went over schedule and over budget is one thing. It’s an enormous conjectural leap to suggest that Kurtz was fired during production as a result.

He was not officially fired before the end of ESB, however he was apparently effectively replaced by Kazanjian. I think it is diplomatically stated so in Making of ESB (it has been a while since I read the book). Also Wikipedia says so: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kurtz#The_Empire_Strikes_Back

It seems like Kazanjian was brought in by Lucas just to get the film finished after Kurtz & Kersh spent a bit too much time trying to make it good with no regard to costs. This was, I think, the start of GL’s tendency to surround himself with yes-men in later years - obviously with a view to maximising profit. I guess it depends what you consider the role of the producer to be; make the film as good as possible, or make the film as cheap as possible. Ironic though that Lucas was the one who went back and re-shot most of the film’s final sequence after the film had premiered.

The job of producer is to ensure things run according to schedule and budget. He/she should create or enforce the working conditions for that to be achieved. Of course it is not his/her fault if the director is not capable of achieving good results in a minimal amount of time, however in the end it is still the producers responsibility if the film goes over-schedule or over-budget. Producers/directors should be talented experts who can produce quality results in limited amount of time. That is why not just anyone is fit for the job.

In addition, saying something like “trying to make it good with no regard to costs” is completely detached from reality and downright ridiculous considering the specific conditions at that time. LF was a fragile newly-founded independent studio that could easily bankrupt. If that happened ESB would probably be quite different.

真実

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In fact ESB cost so much that Lucas had to go to 20th Century Fox mid-shoot and ask for more money to finish the film. It’s understandable he was unhappy with Kurtz’ lack of budget oversight.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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imperialscum said:

Also Wikipedia says so

Not agreeing or disagreeing on this specific issue, but “Wikipedia says so” is almost as irrelevant as “imperialscum says so.”

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imperialscum said:

Judge said:

imperialscum said:

Judge said:

imperialscum said:
The film went two times over schedule and two times over budget. I think in film business, that is pretty much the most obvious evidence of producer’s incompetence you can get. Even big studies freak out at even one of those conditions, let alone a newly founded independent studio. Even though this is widely-known information, for reliable source you can refer to Making of ESB by Rinzler.

I’m looking for a citation of your original claim here, and I can’t see it. Saying that the film went over schedule and over budget is one thing. It’s an enormous conjectural leap to suggest that Kurtz was fired during production as a result.

He was not officially fired before the end of ESB, however he was apparently effectively replaced by Kazanjian. I think it is diplomatically stated so in Making of ESB (it has been a while since I read the book). Also Wikipedia says so: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kurtz#The_Empire_Strikes_Back

It seems like Kazanjian was brought in by Lucas just to get the film finished after Kurtz & Kersh spent a bit too much time trying to make it good with no regard to costs. This was, I think, the start of GL’s tendency to surround himself with yes-men in later years - obviously with a view to maximising profit. I guess it depends what you consider the role of the producer to be; make the film as good as possible, or make the film as cheap as possible. Ironic though that Lucas was the one who went back and re-shot most of the film’s final sequence after the film had premiered.

The job of producer is to ensure things run according to schedule and budget. He/she should create or enforce the working conditions for that to be achieved. Of course it is not his/her fault if the director is not capable of achieving good results in a minimal amount of time

No, what you’re describing is the executive producer. The producer’s job is to oversee set design, story development, casting, shooting etc. and create a good motion picture. GL clearly didn’t allocate enough money and time for the film he wanted to make in the first place, given that he went back after the premiere.

Also saying that Kurtz was financially clueless is laughable considering they made Star Wars on a total shoestring budget - less than most comedies at the time, IIRC.

The proof is in the pudding. RoTJ was generally regarded as “the bad one” until 1999 whereas ESB is still considered the best in the series and one of the better films ever made. It’s a little bit completely stupid to suggest Kurtz was incompetent when he’s had a hand in such great cinema.

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Judge said:

imperialscum said:

The job of producer is to ensure things run according to schedule and budget. He/she should create or enforce the working conditions for that to be achieved. Of course it is not his/her fault if the director is not capable of achieving good results in a minimal amount of time

No, what you’re describing is the executive producer. The producer’s job is to oversee set design, story development, casting, shooting etc. and create a good motion picture. GL clearly didn’t allocate enough money and time for the film he wanted to make in the first place, given that he went back after the premiere.

Executive producer’s job is not ensuring the film to run on budget and schedule. Executive producer’s job is to get the founding for the film (getting investors, etc.). When the budget and schedule are set according to the allocated/available founds, it is the producer’s job to keep the production within those limits.

Since Lucas handled all the creative aspects (ideas, story, script, editing, etc.), the aspect of ensuring the film to ran on budget and schedule was basically Kurtz’s only job.

The allocated money could be sufficient if the execution would be done efficiently. By efficiently I do not mean producing bad results, but producing good results in minimum amount of time.

真実

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imperialscum said:

Judge said:

imperialscum said:

The job of producer is to ensure things run according to schedule and budget. He/she should create or enforce the working conditions for that to be achieved. Of course it is not his/her fault if the director is not capable of achieving good results in a minimal amount of time

No, what you’re describing is the executive producer. The producer’s job is to oversee set design, story development, casting, shooting etc. and create a good motion picture. GL clearly didn’t allocate enough money and time for the film he wanted to make in the first place, given that he went back after the premiere.

Executive producer’s job is not ensuring the film to run on budget and schedule. Executive producer’s job is to get the founding for the film (getting investors, etc.). When the budget and schedule are set according to the allocated/available founds, it is the producers job to keep the production within those limits.

For a perfect being, you sure make a lot of mistakes.

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imperialscum said:
Since Lucas handled all the creative aspects (ideas, story, script, editing, etc.), the aspect of ensuring the film to ran on budget and schedule was basically Kurtz’s only job.

Haha, OK. If you say so.

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TV’s Frink said:

For a perfect being, you sure make a lot of mistakes.

They are not mistakes… you are witnessing language evolution in real time. 😉

真実

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imperialscum said:

TV’s Frink said:

For a perfect being, you sure make a lot of mistakes.

They are not mistakes… you are witnessing language evolution in real time. 😉

Yeah, I’m sure everyone else will start making the same mistakes any day now.

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TV’s Frink said:

imperialscum said:

TV’s Frink said:

For a perfect being, you sure make a lot of mistakes.

They are not mistakes… you are witnessing language evolution in real time. 😉

Yeah, I’m sure everyone else will start making the same mistakes any day now.

I am not so sure but I trust you on this one.

真実