Sign In

George Lucas's Sequel Trilogy — Page 6

Author
Time

dgraham414 said:

Don’t the standards for PG-13 now include any curse words? And TFA was the first of the films with actually low-level cursing.

ESB had some shockingly hardcore profanity. They actually said “n*rf-herder” and avoided an R-rating.

Author
Time

TLJ marked the first SW movie in which the word “ass” is uttered, and we almost got the first ever utterance of the word “shit” in Solo.

Author
Time

Anakin Starkiller said:

TFA was the first of the films with actually low-level cursing.

I’ll see you in hell.

Damn fool I knew you were gonna say that.

Author
Time

“They’re cloners. Damn good ones, too.”

Author
Time

We’ll be here all day if we keep quoting every time a SW character swore.

Author
Time

rocknroll41 said:

fmalover said:

TLJ marked the first SW movie in which the word “ass” is uttered, and we almost got the first ever utterance of the word “shit” in Solo.

Where was “ass” said in TLJ? I remember it in TRoS, but not TLJ.

When they are awaiting the FO assault on Crait, Poe says “let’s pray that big-ass door holds…”.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

The edgy cynicism that once oozed through this comment has been vanquished, and your eyes have been spared. This comment has been deleted by its poster.

Death of the Author

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Servii said:

I prefer the worldbuilding and general premise of this trilogy over the sequels we got, by a large margin. However, bringing Maul back would have been a big mistake and would’ve been very confusing for people who are only familiar with the movies. He’d been absent since Episode I, as far as most people are concerned. Him showing up again, and audiences having to watch an animated series to fill in the gap, would be very off-putting for people.

In a way, I’m glad George’s sequel trilogy didn’t get made, since if it was written and created by the man himself, it would be harder to disregard. And he didn’t seem to have a firm idea of what he even wanted the sequels to be (though neither did Disney and Lucasfilm, to be fair). I think a sequel trilogy was something George would toy with and write notes on every few years, but I doubt he ever would have gone through with it, since he’s getting up there in years, wants to spend time with his family, and ultimately, he had more of a story to tell going backwards in time than forwards.

It reminds me of how J.R.R. Tolkien actually started writing a sequel to Lord of the Rings. He wrote the first couple chapters, then scrapped the project when he realized

a) It was depressing and ruined the bittersweet ending he had created

b) It wouldn’t contribute anything substantial or insightful to the Middle-earth mythology. The story was complete. Anything post-LotR would have been anti-climactic.

I think, on some level, George knew his sequel trilogy was never going to happen by his own hand. It was all just ideas and notes. But he did certainly feel blindsided when he realized Disney wasn’t using his treatments (whatever those treatments entailed). Bob Iger himself made that clear, and I’m sure he softened George’s reaction when he described it. I imagine George was fuming. The fact is, Disney didn’t want to spend any time pondering or formulating what their sequel trilogy was going to be. They wanted to push it out as quickly as possible. It was never about the story to them.

I totally agree. Moreover, from 2005 onwards George constantly repeated that the Skywalker Saga was over, that Return of the Jedi was the conclusion, that he didn’t want to write post-ROTJ stories because the Expanded Universe authors had already done that with comics and novels, and that basically Revenge of the Sith would be the last film in the Saga. So, I really doubt that he would have made any more films. Maybe he could have created some spin-off not related to the Skywalker family, but he certainly wouldn’t have created any more Skywalker-based movies, because he constantly repeated for years that there would be no Episode VII, and that the main Star Wars saga is the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker, which begins with The Phantom Menace and ends with Return of the Jedi. The fact that he developed ideas for the Sequel Trilogy doesn’t mean that he would put them into practice. To be honest, I’m glad none of this has ever been put into practice. From a Lore perspective, I like the ideas that George was developing (Luke rebuilds the Jedi Order, Leia becomes the Chancellor of the New Republic, the criminal syndacates try to overthrow the New Republic and make their own interests, etc.). But making Leia the Chosen One is an abomination in my opinion, and bringing Darth Maul back is a colossal idiocy, which I never liked even in TCW. I greatly prefer the Old Expanded Universe post-ROTJ stories over this.

«This is where the fun begins!»
(Anakin Skywalker)

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Darth Malgus said:

But making Leia the Chosen One is an abomination in my opinion, and bringing Darth Maul back is a colossal idiocy, which I never liked even in TCW. I greatly prefer the Old Expanded Universe post-ROTJ stories over this.

With Leia I think it aligns with the arc in The Mortis Arc in The Clone Wars. I understand you don’t like it as you prefer the Expanded Universe. However in it you have a family in Balance with Father, Son, and Daughter in the spiritual world. It comes together in the material world where Leia becomes the Mother of the Galaxy in a general sense with being the Supreme Chancellor with her children or at least her daughter serving as the Grand Master of the New Jedi Order after Luke passes on in Episode IX to carry on his legacy. Just as it is very much carrying on Anakin’s legacy as the Chosen One and Ones but with a Mother instead of a Father. It also has a Daughter. It’s very much how the previous trilogy was Father and Son. It’s life returning to the feminine and coming full circle to the ideas set up in The Phantom Menace where Padme gives away democracy and the Jedi having lost their way to finding stability again after decades. It’s all about a family in the end.

I was a bit unsure about Darth Maul coming back at first too but upon reflection I think it really works as he would have a personal connection and natural rivalry with Luke and the Skywalker family as a whole as he’s what directly set in motion Anakin being led to being trained by Obi-Wan instead of Qui-Gon - arguably this had major consequences on Anakin and he would probably also know the inner workings of the Grand Plan. So he’d be the perfect candidate in a way to give context to the mystery of Sifo-Dyas in an organic way as George planned to explain he was a secret Sith. He’d also know the inner workings with the Crime Syndicates as it started being established in The Clone Wars before George left. It makes sense to have crime lords trying to overtake the New Republic with the power vacuum created by the demise of the Hutts and Empire. It benefits greatly I think having a main villain that has a direct connection to the conflicts of the entire saga instead of a random main villain as Snoke was at first or worse adding context with someone like Palpatine coming back who walks all over Anakin’s origins through Snoke being created in the way it’s implied he is in Palpatine’s wording, his legacy, and redemption.

I think his entire Sequel Trilogy treatment really works very well for me. They give fans some of what they’ve always wanted to see with Luke restoring the Jedi Order and have respect for the legacy characters as a whole by letting them continue to grow. They also ulimately give us something new instead of just pleasing us through nostalgia by bringing the story full circle by taking account the entire story instead of just the Original Trilogy as the source material. The Whills are my favourite part of it. They’re the last link between understanding Midi-Chlorians and the Force. These things combined connect to the biggest mystery of them all - Anakin’s origins.
It’s arguably the most important part of the story not answered in the Skywalker Saga…

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Darth Malgus said:

Servii said:

I prefer the worldbuilding and general premise of this trilogy over the sequels we got, by a large margin. However, bringing Maul back would have been a big mistake and would’ve been very confusing for people who are only familiar with the movies. He’d been absent since Episode I, as far as most people are concerned. Him showing up again, and audiences having to watch an animated series to fill in the gap, would be very off-putting for people.

In a way, I’m glad George’s sequel trilogy didn’t get made, since if it was written and created by the man himself, it would be harder to disregard. And he didn’t seem to have a firm idea of what he even wanted the sequels to be (though neither did Disney and Lucasfilm, to be fair). I think a sequel trilogy was something George would toy with and write notes on every few years, but I doubt he ever would have gone through with it, since he’s getting up there in years, wants to spend time with his family, and ultimately, he had more of a story to tell going backwards in time than forwards.

It reminds me of how J.R.R. Tolkien actually started writing a sequel to Lord of the Rings. He wrote the first couple chapters, then scrapped the project when he realized

a) It was depressing and ruined the bittersweet ending he had created

b) It wouldn’t contribute anything substantial or insightful to the Middle-earth mythology. The story was complete. Anything post-LotR would have been anti-climactic.

I think, on some level, George knew his sequel trilogy was never going to happen by his own hand. It was all just ideas and notes. But he did certainly feel blindsided when he realized Disney wasn’t using his treatments (whatever those treatments entailed). Bob Iger himself made that clear, and I’m sure he softened George’s reaction when he described it. I imagine George was fuming. The fact is, Disney didn’t want to spend any time pondering or formulating what their sequel trilogy was going to be. They wanted to push it out as quickly as possible. It was never about the story to them.

I totally agree. Moreover, from 2005 onwards George constantly repeated that the Skywalker Saga was over, that Return of the Jedi was the conclusion, that he didn’t want to write post-ROTJ stories because the Expanded Universe authors had already done that with comics and novels, and that basically Revenge of the Sith would be the last film in the Saga. So, I really doubt that he would have made any more films. Maybe he could have created some spin-off not related to the Skywalker family, but he certainly wouldn’t have created any more Skywalker-based movies, because he constantly repeated for years that there would be no Episode VII, and that the main Star Wars saga is the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker, which begins with The Phantom Menace and ends with Return of the Jedi. The fact that he developed ideas for the Sequel Trilogy doesn’t mean that he would put them into practice. To be honest, I’m glad none of this has ever been put into practice. From a Lore perspective, I like the ideas that George was developing (Luke rebuilds the Jedi Order, Leia becomes the Chancellor of the New Republic, the criminal syndacates try to overthrow the New Republic and make their own interests, etc.). But making Leia the Chosen One is an abomination in my opinion, and bringing Darth Maul back is a colossal idiocy, which I never liked even in TCW. I greatly prefer the Old Expanded Universe post-ROTJ stories over this.

The same for me. I find it interesting that Lucas was in favour of others doing the Sequels in novel and comic book form.

In fact, Lucas is on record as suggesting doing the New Jedi Order books as Sequels. Years later Lucas contradicted himself and claimed that was not the way he would have done it. And then, rather hypocritically, years later Lucas actually used some of those early NJO ideas for his own ST film treatments:

oojason said:

Don’t forget the version of the Sequels… that were novels (back in 1999):-
 

In 1999, an interview with George Lucas in Wired magazine, titled ‘Grand Illusion’… just a few months before the ‘Vector Prime’ book (from the ‘New Jedi Order’ series of novels) - began being heavily promoted (with tv advert and poster campaigns), a series of novels which Lucas himself was involved in and contributed to…

^ Grand Illusion - the full article at Wired.

 

A little more background info can be found here:-

https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsEU/comments/hr1tnz/behind_the_scenes_the_making_of_the_new_jedi
 

 

and the interview with George below from 2008:

 

When George later changed his mind and decided to try his hand on the Sequels film, his own treatments were based some of early New Jedi Order novel ideas discussed in the article below, notably the conception of the NJO and aspects of other familiar EU stories. George himself had also contributed to the NJO books, having a number of meetings with the authors, instigating changes to the plot and characters, giving feedback, and making suggestions:

https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWarsEU/comments/hr1tnz/behind_the_scenes_the_making_of_the_new_jedi

The text in the above article is a ‘spoiler’. To see the text appear onscreen, double-click on the blank space where the text should be. Or click here for a screenshot of the article: https://i.imgur.com/6n1rNdM.png

 
 

In Summary…

 
In 1999:

Interviewer: “What about the reports that Episodes 7, 8, and 9 - which exist in novel form - will never reach the screen?”

George Lucas: “The sequels were never really going to get made anyway, unlike 1, 2, and 3, where the stories have existed for 20 years. The idea of 7, 8, and 9 actually came from people asking me about sequels, and I said, “I don’t know. Maybe someday.” Then when the licensing people came and asked, “Can we do novels?” I said do sequels, because I’ll probably never do sequels.”

George also contributed to the New Jedi Order books, having a number of meetings with the authors, instigating changes to the plot and characters, giving feedback, and making a number of other suggestions implemented by the NJO writers.
 

In 2008:

George Lucas: "And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn’t at all what I would have done it.”
 

Around 2011-12:

When George later changes his mind and decides to now try his hand at the Sequel Trilogy, his own later treatments are based some on those same novel ideas, notably the conception of the New Jedi Order, and also some other aspects of familiar EU stories.

Explanations, analysis, and shortcomings of the Star Wars Ring Theory : Plinkett & HelloGreedo | The Emptiness of George Lucas’ Visual Symmetry

Author
Time
 (Edited)

It’s all about a family in the end.

And that’s where the mistake lies in my opinion. The protagonist of the Saga is NOT the Skywalker family as a whole, the protagonist of the Saga is Anakin. George himself said it several times. Anakin is the protagonist of the entire Saga. The moment Anakin dies then the main film Saga ends, because its protagonist is dead and therefore there’s nothing more to tell.

If Leia is the Chosen One in a metaphorical sense (that Is, as the one who restores order in the Galaxy through her office as Chancellor), then for me there is no problem with It. But if she’s the Chosen One in a literal sense, then for me it’s an abomination. There’s only one Chosen One for me, and that’s Anakin Skywalker. Anakin is the Chosen One of the Jedi prophecy, the one who was born to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force. The Prophecy has been fulfilled, because he restored balance by destroying the Sith (who were a source of imbalance) and allowing the New Jedi Order to be reborn on the ashes of the old Order, correcting the mistakes made by the old Jedi, allowing the Jedi to live in a more balanced way with their inner self and with the Force itself. Any story that contradicts this fundamental truth isn’t worth of being told in my opinion.

I totally understand your argument about Darth Maul and Luke, but I believe that Darth Maul played his role in The Phantom Menace excellently, and that he shouldn’t have been reused after the film, except to tell stories set before the film itself. His return makes no sense to me, no matter how well it can be done and what the circumstances may be.

I don’t like the whole concept of the Whills. I prefer the Force continuing to be a mystical energy field shrouded in mystery. I don’t want to know how it works. I have nothing against the midichlorians, because their existence doesn’t tell us anything about how the Force works, but the concept of the Whills takes away all the mystery from the Force, and it’s something I don’t like. For the same reasons, I think the entire concept of the Mortis triad is dumb. I’m more than happy with the explanation given in the Darth Plagueis novel about Anakin’s birth, I don’t need a more detailed explanation and I was never interested in having it.

«This is where the fun begins!»
(Anakin Skywalker)

Author
Time
 (Edited)

I believe that disposing of The Prophecy/The Chosen One is the best change one can make in a PT fanedit, aside from cutting the toilet humor in TPM. I just don’t like retroactively trying to reframe the OT as also part of “Anakin’s saga.” It’s just my preference and if you like the reframing that’s fine with me.

Author
Time

BedeHistory731 said:

I believe that disposing of The Prophecy/The Chosen One is the best change one can make in a PT fanedit, aside from cutting the toilet humor in TPM. I just don’t like retroactively trying to reframe the OT as also part of “Anakin’s saga.” It’s just my preference and if you like the reframing that’s fine with me.

I agree. Over time, I’ve mostly soured on the whole Chosen One prophecy. Both for the reason you mentioned, and also because I think it undermines the ideas of free will that the OT had.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Servii said:

BedeHistory731 said:

I believe that disposing of The Prophecy/The Chosen One is the best change one can make in a PT fanedit, aside from cutting the toilet humor in TPM. I just don’t like retroactively trying to reframe the OT as also part of “Anakin’s saga.” It’s just my preference and if you like the reframing that’s fine with me.

I agree. Over time, I’ve mostly soured on the whole Chosen One prophecy. Both for the reason you mentioned, and also because I think it undermines the ideas of free will that the OT had.

To be fair in a real world context free will could apply to God. He, himself had free will and chose to die for sins. So it’s not unlike Anakin who ulimately decided on if he wanted to save his son or let him perish along with letting the Dark Side win. If anything it strengths the case of free will as displayed throughout both trilogies. You can choose to follow your destiny or you can ignore it and evil will prevail gradually if you don’t listen to your calling. The Prequels often deal with the push and pull between doing what is required and what is easy. The key difference is the oppressor is pulling the strings behind the curtain. Yet also Jar Jar had a choice on if he wanted to help the Naboo, Qui-Gon had a choice to free Anakin and Jar Jar, Padme had a choice if she wanted to help her people or not, and etc… Utimately Anakin had a choice if wanted to join Palpatine or not. I personally don’t see anything in the Chosen One prophecy that contradicts free will. If anything it makes Anakin’s fall more tragic as he had to become the very thing he swore to destroy and lose everything but his children to finally see his destiny was to bring Balance of the Force.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

Author
Time
 (Edited)

BedeHistory731 said:

I believe that disposing of The Prophecy/The Chosen One is the best change one can make in a PT fanedit, aside from cutting the toilet humor in TPM. I just don’t like retroactively trying to reframe the OT as also part of “Anakin’s saga.” It’s just my preference and if you like the reframing that’s fine with me.

I agree with this, a hundred times.

The Saga was never about Anakin as there was never a Saga to start with. Just 1 film, then 3 films. But only half way through the second film Vader is Luke’s dad, to be made a stronger character after George previously said he was not strong enough to be the main villain. The 3 films we are told are “The Adventures Of Luke Skywalker”.

Then 6 films, with a large number of disconnects introduced between the old 3 films and the new 3 films.

We are then told is now somehow “Anakin’s Saga” instead.

But people growing up during the times of the OT know this is not true. Or even younger people who look through the history. I do not mind people wanting to believe it is “Anakin’s Saga” or want to “reframe” (a good description BedeHistory), but it is annoying when fans rewrite history and tell others online “it was always Anakin’s Saga” as is claimed elsewhere.

It has been retconned to be “Anakin’s Saga” is more accurate, and before the retcon it was “The Adventures Of Luke Skywalker”.

BedeHistory731 said:

I believe that disposing of The Prophecy/The Chosen One is the best change one can make in a PT fanedit, aside from cutting the toilet humor in TPM

Yes, so many Prequel editors cut this. Even editors who are fans of the Prequel Trilogy. And also the toilet comedy!

Explanations, analysis, and shortcomings of the Star Wars Ring Theory : Plinkett & HelloGreedo | The Emptiness of George Lucas’ Visual Symmetry

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Well, I’m perfectly aware that Star Wars has not always been Anakin’s Saga since '77, but I actively support the retcon, and I think that the Hexology, as a whole, can be described as Anakin’s Saga, even if Star Wars has not always been so from the beginning. I think that Star Wars intended as “Anakin’s Saga” is perfect, and that no other changes should be made to the ultimate meaning of the Saga, as Disney tried to do. They tried to change the meaning of Star Wars from “Anakin’s Saga” to “The Skywalker Saga”, and that’s something I don’t approve.

Personally the Chosen One Prophecy never bothered me. On the contrary, I think that without it the Hexology would have had less impact on me, and that the ending of Return of the Jedi would be less powerful, at least in my opinion. But of course I respect your opinion guys.

«This is where the fun begins!»
(Anakin Skywalker)

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Darth Malgus said:

Well, I’m perfectly aware that Star Wars has not always been Anakin’s Saga since '77, but I actively support the retcon, and I think that the Hexology, as a whole, can be described as Anakin’s Saga, even if Star Wars has not always been so from the beginning.

I mean no disrespect but it only become retconned to be Anakin’s Saga around '99, or maybe '05 when ROTS was released and this new Saga was completed.
I was only mentioning it as some fans online claim “it was always Anakin’s Saga” elsewhere online which is both annoying and untrue.

Explanations, analysis, and shortcomings of the Star Wars Ring Theory : Plinkett & HelloGreedo | The Emptiness of George Lucas’ Visual Symmetry

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Emre1601 said:

Darth Malgus said:

Well, I’m perfectly aware that Star Wars has not always been Anakin’s Saga since '77, but I actively support the retcon, and I think that the Hexology, as a whole, can be described as Anakin’s Saga, even if Star Wars has not always been so from the beginning.

I mean no disrespect but it only become retconned to be Anakin’s Saga around '99, or maybe '05 when ROTS was released and this new Saga was completed.
I was only mentioning it as some fans online claim “it was always Anakin’s Saga” elsewhere online which is both annoying and untrue.

To be fair I think it could be said it goes back even further than that in a way. George told Jim Bloom of ILM during stages of post production of Empire, “The first trilogy is about the young Ben Kenobi and the early life of Luke’s father when Luke is a little boy.”.

Of course we never got to see Luke as a little boy but the story grew and evolved. However the key I think is that he said the first trilogy would focus on Anakin and Obi-Wan. This ended up being true. He talked about this in another quote that the Prequels were meant to give Anakin’s side of the story since the Original Trilogy is more relying information from a certain point of view of those that knew him. The Prequels in a general sense when he puts it that way contextualised and added new meaning to what certain things meant in the Original Trilogy. That was all intentional come time of the Prequels. They were meant to change our views on certain things. Marcia Lucas also said in Jonathan Rinzler’s book for Howard Kazanjian that George was really struggling with writing The Empire Strikes Back and once when Gloria Katz and Willard Huyck visited they joked about what if Darth Vader was Luke’s father. It isn’t out of the realm of possibility George was already thinking it either with some of the early concepts for A New Hope. However it is interesting to see how the story grew and evolved. I understand why some wouldn’t like the directions the story took but it took the natural progression I think George wanted it to for better or worse depending on who you ask. It is his story after all up until Disney came into the picture and decided to not use his Sequel Trilogy treatments. The context is different from retconing like the cat and mouse game played with Rey’s Parentage.

It’s also curious the original concept for A New Hope had a prophecy called the Son of Suns. So he was toying with idea of a prophecy in the early concepts too.

Darth Malgus said:

Well, I’m perfectly aware that Star Wars has not always been Anakin’s Saga since '77, but I actively support the retcon, and I think that the Hexology, as a whole, can be described as Anakin’s Saga, even if Star Wars has not always been so from the beginning. I think that Star Wars intended as “Anakin’s Saga” is perfect, and that no other changes should be made to the ultimate meaning of the Saga, as Disney tried to do. They tried to change the meaning of Star Wars from “Anakin’s Saga” to “The Skywalker Saga”, and that’s something I don’t approve.

George and those closest to him like Rick McCallum also called it the “Skywalker Saga” or at least the story of a family and I think personally the next natural step for the Sequels to explore is the realm beyond the material world as George intended. You see Anakin’s fall, redemption, and ultimately afterlife. It seems to me the story was always progressing towards eclipsing the entire universe in things George and Mark Hamill have both said. Yet it is also rooted in the idea of exploring all three phases of one’s life but also have the family angle at the same time. It’s still Anakin’s story as the “Ultimate Father” as George called him when discussing things with Bill Moyers but it is just as much about his family starting with the mother he left behind. The feminine is just as important to the story as the masculine. This comes full circle in his Sequels with a Mother and Daughter to contrast where the story began with a Mother and Son.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

Author
Time
 (Edited)

And that’s where the mistake lies in my opinion. The protagonist of the Saga is NOT the Skywalker family as a whole, the protagonist of the Saga is Anakin. George himself said it several times. Anakin is the protagonist of the entire Saga. The moment Anakin dies then the main film Saga ends, because its protagonist is dead and therefore there’s nothing more to tell.

George can say whatever he wants, but the fact of the matter is that defining Darth Vader in the OT as a protagonist is just flat-out wrong. Looking at it in vacuum, the films’ protagonists are as follows:

TPM: Qui-Gon
AotC: Obi-Wan, Anakin, Padme
RotS, Obi-Wan, Anakin
ANH: Luke, Han
TESB: Luke, Han, Leia
RotJ: Luke
TFA: Rey, Finn
TLJ: Rey, Finn, Poe
TRoS: “REY!!!”

You can debate some of the specifics here like counting Leia in ANH or Padme in TPM, but the gist is that. Personally, I’d consider Palpatine the overarching throughline, but that’s just me.

I don’t like the name Skywalker Saga because it puts a disproportionate emphasis on Anakin, Luke, and debatably Rey while undercutting the contributions of others like Han and Obi-Wan.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Stardust1138 said:

Emre1601 said:

Darth Malgus said:

Well, I’m perfectly aware that Star Wars has not always been Anakin’s Saga since '77, but I actively support the retcon, and I think that the Hexology, as a whole, can be described as Anakin’s Saga, even if Star Wars has not always been so from the beginning.

I mean no disrespect but it only become retconned to be Anakin’s Saga around '99, or maybe '05 when ROTS was released and this new Saga was completed.
I was only mentioning it as some fans online claim “it was always Anakin’s Saga” elsewhere online which is both annoying and untrue.

To be fair I think it could be said it goes back even further than that in a way. George told Jim Bloom of ILM during stages of post production of Empire, “The first trilogy is about the young Ben Kenobi and the early life of Luke’s father when Luke is a little boy.”.

Of course we never got to see Luke as a little boy but the story grew and evolved. However the key I think is that he said the first trilogy would focus on Anakin and Obi-Wan. This ended up being true. He talked about this in another quote that the Prequels were meant to give Anakin’s side of the story since the Original Trilogy is more relying information from a certain point of view of those that knew him. The Prequels in a general sense when he puts it that way contextualised and added new meaning to what certain things meant in the Original Trilogy. That was all intentional come time of the Prequels. They were meant to change our views on certain things. Marcia Lucas also said in Jonathan Rinzler’s book for Howard Kazanjian that George was really struggling with writing The Empire Strikes Back and once when Gloria Katz and Willard Huyck visited they joked about what if Darth Vader was Luke’s father. It isn’t out of the realm of possibility George was already thinking it either with some of the early concepts for A New Hope. However it is interesting to see how the story grew and evolved. I understand why some wouldn’t like the directions the story took but it took the natural progression I think George wanted it to for better or worse depending on who you ask. It is his story after all up until Disney came into the picture and decided to not use his Sequel Trilogy treatments. The context is different from retconing like the cat and mouse game played with Rey’s Parentage.

It’s also curious the original concept for A New Hope had a prophecy called the Son of Suns. So he was toying with idea of a prophecy in the early concepts too.

I think you may have missed the context of the first conversation:

Emre1601 said:

BedeHistory731 said:

I believe that disposing of The Prophecy/The Chosen One is the best change one can make in a PT fanedit, aside from cutting the toilet humor in TPM. I just don’t like retroactively trying to reframe the OT as also part of “Anakin’s saga.” It’s just my preference and if you like the reframing that’s fine with me.

I agree with this, a hundred times.

The Saga was never about Anakin as there was never a Saga to start with. Just 1 film, then 3 films. But only half way through the second film Vader is Luke’s dad, to be made a stronger character after George previously said he was not strong enough to be the main villain. The 3 films we are told are “The Adventures Of Luke Skywalker”.

Then 6 films, with a large number of disconnects introduced between the old 3 films and the new 3 films.

We are then told is now somehow “Anakin’s Saga” instead.

But people growing up during the times of the OT know this is not true. Or even younger people who look through the history. I do not mind people wanting to believe it is “Anakin’s Saga” or want to “reframe” (a good description BedeHistory), but it is annoying when fans rewrite history and tell others online “it was always Anakin’s Saga” as is claimed elsewhere.

It has been retconned to be “Anakin’s Saga” is more accurate, and before the retcon it was “The Adventures Of Luke Skywalker”.

Explanations, analysis, and shortcomings of the Star Wars Ring Theory : Plinkett & HelloGreedo | The Emptiness of George Lucas’ Visual Symmetry

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Emre1601 said:

Stardust1138 said:

Emre1601 said:

Darth Malgus said:

Well, I’m perfectly aware that Star Wars has not always been Anakin’s Saga since '77, but I actively support the retcon, and I think that the Hexology, as a whole, can be described as Anakin’s Saga, even if Star Wars has not always been so from the beginning.

I mean no disrespect but it only become retconned to be Anakin’s Saga around '99, or maybe '05 when ROTS was released and this new Saga was completed.
I was only mentioning it as some fans online claim “it was always Anakin’s Saga” elsewhere online which is both annoying and untrue.

To be fair I think it could be said it goes back even further than that in a way. George told Jim Bloom of ILM during stages of post production of Empire, “The first trilogy is about the young Ben Kenobi and the early life of Luke’s father when Luke is a little boy.”.

Of course we never got to see Luke as a little boy but the story grew and evolved. However the key I think is that he said the first trilogy would focus on Anakin and Obi-Wan. This ended up being true. He talked about this in another quote that the Prequels were meant to give Anakin’s side of the story since the Original Trilogy is more relying information from a certain point of view of those that knew him. The Prequels in a general sense when he puts it that way contextualised and added new meaning to what certain things meant in the Original Trilogy. That was all intentional come time of the Prequels. They were meant to change our views on certain things. Marcia Lucas also said in Jonathan Rinzler’s book for Howard Kazanjian that George was really struggling with writing The Empire Strikes Back and once when Gloria Katz and Willard Huyck visited they joked about what if Darth Vader was Luke’s father. It isn’t out of the realm of possibility George was already thinking it either with some of the early concepts for A New Hope. However it is interesting to see how the story grew and evolved. I understand why some wouldn’t like the directions the story took but it took the natural progression I think George wanted it to for better or worse depending on who you ask. It is his story after all up until Disney came into the picture and decided to not use his Sequel Trilogy treatments. The context is different from retconing like the cat and mouse game played with Rey’s Parentage.

It’s also curious the original concept for A New Hope had a prophecy called the Son of Suns. So he was toying with idea of a prophecy in the early concepts too.

I think you may have missed the context of the first conversation:

Emre1601 said:

BedeHistory731 said:

I believe that disposing of The Prophecy/The Chosen One is the best change one can make in a PT fanedit, aside from cutting the toilet humor in TPM. I just don’t like retroactively trying to reframe the OT as also part of “Anakin’s saga.” It’s just my preference and if you like the reframing that’s fine with me.

I agree with this, a hundred times.

The Saga was never about Anakin as there was never a Saga to start with. Just 1 film, then 3 films. But only half way through the second film Vader is Luke’s dad, to be made a stronger character after George previously said he was not strong enough to be the main villain. The 3 films we are told are “The Adventures Of Luke Skywalker”.

Then 6 films, with a large number of disconnects introduced between the old 3 films and the new 3 films.

We are then told is now somehow “Anakin’s Saga” instead.

But people growing up during the times of the OT know this is not true. Or even younger people who look through the history. I do not mind people wanting to believe it is “Anakin’s Saga” or want to “reframe” (a good description BedeHistory), but it is annoying when fans rewrite history and tell others online “it was always Anakin’s Saga” as is claimed elsewhere.

It has been retconned to be “Anakin’s Saga” is more accurate, and before the retcon it was “The Adventures Of Luke Skywalker”.

Emre1601 said:

Stardust1138 said:

Emre1601 said:

Darth Malgus said:

Well, I’m perfectly aware that Star Wars has not always been Anakin’s Saga since '77, but I actively support the retcon, and I think that the Hexology, as a whole, can be described as Anakin’s Saga, even if Star Wars has not always been so from the beginning.

I mean no disrespect but it only become retconned to be Anakin’s Saga around '99, or maybe '05 when ROTS was released and this new Saga was completed.
I was only mentioning it as some fans online claim “it was always Anakin’s Saga” elsewhere online which is both annoying and untrue.

To be fair I think it could be said it goes back even further than that in a way. George told Jim Bloom of ILM during stages of post production of Empire, “The first trilogy is about the young Ben Kenobi and the early life of Luke’s father when Luke is a little boy.”.

Of course we never got to see Luke as a little boy but the story grew and evolved. However the key I think is that he said the first trilogy would focus on Anakin and Obi-Wan. This ended up being true. He talked about this in another quote that the Prequels were meant to give Anakin’s side of the story since the Original Trilogy is more relying information from a certain point of view of those that knew him. The Prequels in a general sense when he puts it that way contextualised and added new meaning to what certain things meant in the Original Trilogy. That was all intentional come time of the Prequels. They were meant to change our views on certain things. Marcia Lucas also said in Jonathan Rinzler’s book for Howard Kazanjian that George was really struggling with writing The Empire Strikes Back and once when Gloria Katz and Willard Huyck visited they joked about what if Darth Vader was Luke’s father. It isn’t out of the realm of possibility George was already thinking it either with some of the early concepts for A New Hope. However it is interesting to see how the story grew and evolved. I understand why some wouldn’t like the directions the story took but it took the natural progression I think George wanted it to for better or worse depending on who you ask. It is his story after all up until Disney came into the picture and decided to not use his Sequel Trilogy treatments. The context is different from retconing like the cat and mouse game played with Rey’s Parentage.

It’s also curious the original concept for A New Hope had a prophecy called the Son of Suns. So he was toying with idea of a prophecy in the early concepts too.

I think you may have missed the context of the first conversation:

Emre1601 said:

BedeHistory731 said:

I believe that disposing of The Prophecy/The Chosen One is the best change one can make in a PT fanedit, aside from cutting the toilet humor in TPM. I just don’t like retroactively trying to reframe the OT as also part of “Anakin’s saga.” It’s just my preference and if you like the reframing that’s fine with me.

I agree with this, a hundred times.

The Saga was never about Anakin as there was never a Saga to start with. Just 1 film, then 3 films. But only half way through the second film Vader is Luke’s dad, to be made a stronger character after George previously said he was not strong enough to be the main villain. The 3 films we are told are “The Adventures Of Luke Skywalker”.

Then 6 films, with a large number of disconnects introduced between the old 3 films and the new 3 films.

We are then told is now somehow “Anakin’s Saga” instead.

But people growing up during the times of the OT know this is not true. Or even younger people who look through the history. I do not mind people wanting to believe it is “Anakin’s Saga” or want to “reframe” (a good description BedeHistory), but it is annoying when fans rewrite history and tell others online “it was always Anakin’s Saga” as is claimed elsewhere.

It has been retconned to be “Anakin’s Saga” is more accurate, and before the retcon it was “The Adventures Of Luke Skywalker”.

So I did. My apologies for the misunderstanding on my part. I find this to be part of George’s genius. The great thing about A New Hope originally and I’d even say The Phantom Menace for those of us that experienced it first before seeing the Original Trilogy is both leave the door open for so many possibilities and truly allow you to create stories with your imagination as much as it is what is on screen that you can make your own. It’s one of my favourite aspects of how George creates the opening episode of the trilogies. They’re both very important to the whole narrative but they also stand alone the most of all six. Yet they can all stand on their own at the same time. It’s truly a balancing act and hard to follow this rule of structure with how they’re all meant to be seen as a collective whole at the same time according to George.

“Heroes come in all sizes, and you don’t have to be a giant hero. You can be a very small hero. It’s just as important to understand that accepting self-responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people - these are heroic acts. Everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives.” - George Lucas

Author
Time

On the topic of retcons, “Darth” wasn’t really publicly known as a title until Maul. Up until that point, ROTJ gave no indication it was some sort of Sith rank.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Stardust1138 said:

Emre1601 said:

Stardust1138 said:

Emre1601 said:

Darth Malgus said:

Well, I’m perfectly aware that Star Wars has not always been Anakin’s Saga since '77, but I actively support the retcon, and I think that the Hexology, as a whole, can be described as Anakin’s Saga, even if Star Wars has not always been so from the beginning.

I mean no disrespect but it only become retconned to be Anakin’s Saga around '99, or maybe '05 when ROTS was released and this new Saga was completed.
I was only mentioning it as some fans online claim “it was always Anakin’s Saga” elsewhere online which is both annoying and untrue.

To be fair I think it could be said it goes back even further than that in a way. George told Jim Bloom of ILM during stages of post production of Empire, “The first trilogy is about the young Ben Kenobi and the early life of Luke’s father when Luke is a little boy.”.

Of course we never got to see Luke as a little boy but the story grew and evolved. However the key I think is that he said the first trilogy would focus on Anakin and Obi-Wan. This ended up being true. He talked about this in another quote that the Prequels were meant to give Anakin’s side of the story since the Original Trilogy is more relying information from a certain point of view of those that knew him. The Prequels in a general sense when he puts it that way contextualised and added new meaning to what certain things meant in the Original Trilogy. That was all intentional come time of the Prequels. They were meant to change our views on certain things. Marcia Lucas also said in Jonathan Rinzler’s book for Howard Kazanjian that George was really struggling with writing The Empire Strikes Back and once when Gloria Katz and Willard Huyck visited they joked about what if Darth Vader was Luke’s father. It isn’t out of the realm of possibility George was already thinking it either with some of the early concepts for A New Hope. However it is interesting to see how the story grew and evolved. I understand why some wouldn’t like the directions the story took but it took the natural progression I think George wanted it to for better or worse depending on who you ask. It is his story after all up until Disney came into the picture and decided to not use his Sequel Trilogy treatments. The context is different from retconing like the cat and mouse game played with Rey’s Parentage.

It’s also curious the original concept for A New Hope had a prophecy called the Son of Suns. So he was toying with idea of a prophecy in the early concepts too.

I think you may have missed the context of the first conversation:

Emre1601 said:

BedeHistory731 said:

I believe that disposing of The Prophecy/The Chosen One is the best change one can make in a PT fanedit, aside from cutting the toilet humor in TPM. I just don’t like retroactively trying to reframe the OT as also part of “Anakin’s saga.” It’s just my preference and if you like the reframing that’s fine with me.

I agree with this, a hundred times.

The Saga was never about Anakin as there was never a Saga to start with. Just 1 film, then 3 films. But only half way through the second film Vader is Luke’s dad, to be made a stronger character after George previously said he was not strong enough to be the main villain. The 3 films we are told are “The Adventures Of Luke Skywalker”.

Then 6 films, with a large number of disconnects introduced between the old 3 films and the new 3 films.

We are then told is now somehow “Anakin’s Saga” instead.

But people growing up during the times of the OT know this is not true. Or even younger people who look through the history. I do not mind people wanting to believe it is “Anakin’s Saga” or want to “reframe” (a good description BedeHistory), but it is annoying when fans rewrite history and tell others online “it was always Anakin’s Saga” as is claimed elsewhere.

It has been retconned to be “Anakin’s Saga” is more accurate, and before the retcon it was “The Adventures Of Luke Skywalker”.

Emre1601 said:

Stardust1138 said:

Emre1601 said:

Darth Malgus said:

Well, I’m perfectly aware that Star Wars has not always been Anakin’s Saga since '77, but I actively support the retcon, and I think that the Hexology, as a whole, can be described as Anakin’s Saga, even if Star Wars has not always been so from the beginning.

I mean no disrespect but it only become retconned to be Anakin’s Saga around '99, or maybe '05 when ROTS was released and this new Saga was completed.
I was only mentioning it as some fans online claim “it was always Anakin’s Saga” elsewhere online which is both annoying and untrue.

To be fair I think it could be said it goes back even further than that in a way. George told Jim Bloom of ILM during stages of post production of Empire, “The first trilogy is about the young Ben Kenobi and the early life of Luke’s father when Luke is a little boy.”.

Of course we never got to see Luke as a little boy but the story grew and evolved. However the key I think is that he said the first trilogy would focus on Anakin and Obi-Wan. This ended up being true. He talked about this in another quote that the Prequels were meant to give Anakin’s side of the story since the Original Trilogy is more relying information from a certain point of view of those that knew him. The Prequels in a general sense when he puts it that way contextualised and added new meaning to what certain things meant in the Original Trilogy. That was all intentional come time of the Prequels. They were meant to change our views on certain things. Marcia Lucas also said in Jonathan Rinzler’s book for Howard Kazanjian that George was really struggling with writing The Empire Strikes Back and once when Gloria Katz and Willard Huyck visited they joked about what if Darth Vader was Luke’s father. It isn’t out of the realm of possibility George was already thinking it either with some of the early concepts for A New Hope. However it is interesting to see how the story grew and evolved. I understand why some wouldn’t like the directions the story took but it took the natural progression I think George wanted it to for better or worse depending on who you ask. It is his story after all up until Disney came into the picture and decided to not use his Sequel Trilogy treatments. The context is different from retconing like the cat and mouse game played with Rey’s Parentage.

It’s also curious the original concept for A New Hope had a prophecy called the Son of Suns. So he was toying with idea of a prophecy in the early concepts too.

I think you may have missed the context of the first conversation:

Emre1601 said:

BedeHistory731 said:

I believe that disposing of The Prophecy/The Chosen One is the best change one can make in a PT fanedit, aside from cutting the toilet humor in TPM. I just don’t like retroactively trying to reframe the OT as also part of “Anakin’s saga.” It’s just my preference and if you like the reframing that’s fine with me.

I agree with this, a hundred times.

The Saga was never about Anakin as there was never a Saga to start with. Just 1 film, then 3 films. But only half way through the second film Vader is Luke’s dad, to be made a stronger character after George previously said he was not strong enough to be the main villain. The 3 films we are told are “The Adventures Of Luke Skywalker”.

Then 6 films, with a large number of disconnects introduced between the old 3 films and the new 3 films.

We are then told is now somehow “Anakin’s Saga” instead.

But people growing up during the times of the OT know this is not true. Or even younger people who look through the history. I do not mind people wanting to believe it is “Anakin’s Saga” or want to “reframe” (a good description BedeHistory), but it is annoying when fans rewrite history and tell others online “it was always Anakin’s Saga” as is claimed elsewhere.

It has been retconned to be “Anakin’s Saga” is more accurate, and before the retcon it was “The Adventures Of Luke Skywalker”.

So I did. My apologies for the misunderstanding on my part. I find this to be part of George’s genius. The great thing about A New Hope originally and I’d even say The Phantom Menace for those of us that experienced it first before seeing the Original Trilogy is both leave the door open for so many possibilities and truly allow you to create stories with your imagination as much as it is what is on screen that you can make your own. It’s one of my favourite aspects of how George creates the opening episode of the trilogies. They’re both very important to the whole narrative but they also stand alone the most of all six. Yet they can all stand on their own at the same time. It’s truly a balancing act and hard to follow this rule of structure with how they’re all meant to be seen as a collective whole at the same time according to George.

That is interesting. To leave an imprint on our minds, so we create stories with our imagination so we want more as well as what is onscreen. This is something that occurs regularly in the early Flash Gordon serials and Westerns that George was inspired by. I find George’s genius to be more in the portrayal and reinvention of himself. Someone who is obviously adept at rewriting history. Anchorhead’s post here says this better than I can:

Anchorhead said:

Stardust1138 said:
the only thing I can think of that I dislike about the Original Trilogy is Luke and Leia kissing but in a way there’s a lot of mythology that does the same thing. So while it is weird that they do kiss it’s not completely unheard of within myth and we know it influenced George

They weren’t related when he wrote the movie. No mythology, no influences, no anything else. It was a farm boy and a princess in the only thing Lucas had written. There was no Original Vision or multi-film Saga

Star Wars was just a single outer space adventure movie. It’s well documented that he wrote the Empire line ”no, there is another” without having any idea where he would go with the story.

He had writer’s block later and ham-fisted his way out of it. It’s weird because it was poorly handled by a bad writer. If Lucas really had anything beyond one film in mind, he wouldn’t have hired two writers to come up with possible sequels to his only script.

It’s truly sad how Lucas has spent decades crafting this revised image of himself as some deep thinker who embarked on a grand 12-film/6-film/9-film/the media made that up/it was always my idea/etc, Saga (genuflect).
The only thing Lucas is truly great at is revising history. Some of us got on this merry-go-round at the beginning. We know the truth because we were there as it was happening.

https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/George-Lucas-Star-Wars-Creator-Unreliable-Narrator-Time-Travelling-Revisionist/id/66986

I find it fascinating George is so persuasive at this rewriting history that many fans will believe any of his retcons and debunked claims, almost without question. Instead of looking at things with a more balanced and subjective view, facts are instead casually twisted or spun but only to show George in a more positive light. So much is about George, and yet so little about the many other fantastic and creative talents that worked and contributed so much on the films.

That is not to forget that Irvin Kershner and the creatives on Empire really took the Empire Strikes Back to a whole other level, completely across the board, a level that unfortunately has not been achieved since in Star Wars.

Creatives who pushed each other and challenged each other to do better, including challenging George himself. Many find it disappointing that the same challenging dynamic didn’t occur for the making of the Prequels, and the result is there for all to see.

But I am also happy others enjoy and love the Prequel films and look to find deeper meaning in them. And anything else Star Wars anyone enjoys.

Explanations, analysis, and shortcomings of the Star Wars Ring Theory : Plinkett & HelloGreedo | The Emptiness of George Lucas’ Visual Symmetry

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Stardust1138 said:

Emre1601 said:

Darth Malgus said:

Well, I’m perfectly aware that Star Wars has not always been Anakin’s Saga since '77, but I actively support the retcon, and I think that the Hexology, as a whole, can be described as Anakin’s Saga, even if Star Wars has not always been so from the beginning.

I mean no disrespect but it only become retconned to be Anakin’s Saga around '99, or maybe '05 when ROTS was released and this new Saga was completed.
I was only mentioning it as some fans online claim “it was always Anakin’s Saga” elsewhere online which is both annoying and untrue.

To be fair I think it could be said it goes back even further than that in a way. George told Jim Bloom of ILM during stages of post production of Empire, “The first trilogy is about the young Ben Kenobi and the early life of Luke’s father when Luke is a little boy.”.

Of course we never got to see Luke as a little boy but the story grew and evolved. However the key I think is that he said the first trilogy would focus on Anakin and Obi-Wan. This ended up being true. He talked about this in another quote that the Prequels were meant to give Anakin’s side of the story since the Original Trilogy is more relying information from a certain point of view of those that knew him.

None of this means that the OT is parts 4-6 in Anakin’s story.

It is his story after all up until Disney came into the picture and decided to not use his Sequel Trilogy treatments.

It’s not as clean cut as Lucasfilm deciding not to use his sequel trilogy treatments. Because of how much of the ST we know specifically came from Lucas’s treatments, it’s probably more likely that they decided not to be bound by them. Although it’s not like we have his treatments to compare.

A lot of the time you also claim that there are ideas in the PT which were meant to be resolved in a Lucas ST, but this is also very unlikely. George Lucas never had plans for an overarching saga, and I doubt when making the prequel trilogy he thought any further ahead than the movie he was currently working on, with very rare exceptions. The information we have on his ideas on the ST were contradictory and read like multiple separate concepts for an ST from different points in time at best, more likely there were just a couple points in his life where he thought about it and brainstormed, but never committed to any idea. Ideas for a PT that predate the 90s are the same way, with the most consistent details (Vader being in the suit because of a fight with Obi-Wan on a volcano) having the depth of a DnD character backstory. Not even that example goes as far back as the production of ANH, where the original idea was that it was just a regular space suit for breathing in space, where they figured Vader and the Stormtroopers might be often.

It’s also curious the original concept for A New Hope had a prophecy called the Son of Suns. So he was toying with idea of a prophecy in the early concepts too.

Maybe, but a Chosen One prophecy is also a common fantasy trope. It doesn’t imply Star Wars was always Anakin’s saga. I mean, the Son of Suns is obviously Luke, and not the guy who isn’t even Anakin yet. As far as Lucas was concerned in 1976, Anakin is Luke’s sword in the stone.

To be honest, Luke is a far better candidate of being the Chosen One than Anakin even with the prequels. Anakin only destroys the Sith on an absolute technicality. Not that Luke even has a strong argument, either. This is why the Chosen One as a concept works so poorly for Star Wars.

Death of the Author