George Lucas leaves Lucasfilm — Page 3

DuracellEnergizer said:

danny_boy said:

CP3S said:

danny_boy said:

The first time I ever saw SW was back to back with Empire in April 81'---and whilst I don't remember the content of the crawl I do remember seeing the crawl!------and this is the point----the advent of home video from the early 1980's onwards has allowed an entire generation to analyse every frame of a movie like SW to the point of saturation.

SW was never designed to be seen that many times----Lucas even says as much in the DVD commentary------the prequels on the other hand---being made in an era where home video was firmly established have been created with the "pause,slo-mo and rewind" generation in mind---hence why every frame is densily packed with visual info.

This may well be some of the most retarded stuff I have ever read on this forum, and I am used to hanging out in the Off Topic section, so that is saying a lot!

 

I guess the truth hurts huh?

You guess? You don't know?

Can you please stop posting portraits of your husband in response to my posts?

Thank you.

msycamore said:

danny_boy said:

Oh come on dude----Star wars was incredibly popular----that meant that  the original camera negative(OCN) was used extensively to create "new prints" from 1977 to 1981(long before any thoughts were given to preservation)

It is pretty much symptomatic of the era----the OCN of Taxi Driver, The Godfather and Jaws are  in woeful condition too------so much so that the OCN of the Godfather cannot even be passed through a pin registered mechanism anymore without falling apart(but Coppola does not get the type of vitriolic hate that is often attribued to Lucas because of it)

Dude, that's because he have taken care of the issue, these films have been given the care and passion they deserve, they are safe. When Lucas found out about the state of Star Wars, what did he do? not a restoration, that's for sure and that is a pretty big difference. If Coppola had treated The Godfather films in the same way that Lucas have treated Star Wars and its fans the last fifteen years, you would see quite frustrated comments attributed towards him. If you don't get why people are upset, then I don't know what to say, there is actually a reason behind all of this. Do you see George Lucas as a man who really cares deeply about the fans of these films?

You missed my point mate.

The Godfather was eventually treated to a restoration in 2008-----but it was in a severe state of disrepair prior to that point(even though new prints had been struck for the 25th anniversary in 1997)-----but Coppola did not recieve the same type of abuse that Lucas continues to get.

Coppola bothered to restore the film and release it without adding CGI to it and calling it his original vision. I think that's what they're getting at.

danny_boy said:

Baronlando said:

danny_boy said:

And I guess you don't remember this:

the first two Godfather films had sustained additional damage in the 1980s, when Paramount sent them to an optical house to make new prints. The original rolls were disassembled and then reassembled incorrectly, a cheaper but chemically damaging fill was used, and the films’ lyrical 12' and 16' dissolves were replaced with dissolves of generic length 

Hey no shit, what does that have to do with anything? Some lab goon working for Paramount home video did that.   

Everything.

Where was the fan outrage between the early 1980's to 2006/7  that should have been induced by this error to one of the most influential films in american cinema?

Can't seem to find it anywhere-----it's probably because The Godfather had not been dissected frame by frame by narrow-minded "so called fans" who had/have nothing better to with their time.

There is a marked difference between an unrelated, random person accidentally screwing something up, after which a comprehensive restoration is made, and the creator deliberately going out of his way to keep his original films out of the way.  It has nothing to do with "narrow-mindedness" (unless you're talking about George) or over-dissection of the movie.  Being mad at Coppola over that would be like being mad at Lucas because an intern spilled Coke on the Yoda puppet.  But that's not a fair comparison because you're comparing something Coppola had no control over to something Lucas has every control over and wondering why no one is mad at Coppola.  To use marketing speak, it's the difference between, "Oh, shit, we screwed up.  Sorry about that," and, "It's a deliberate, creative decision."

I do, however, see what you're getting at, although I have a different reaction.  I say it's a shame that it wasn't widely documented back then, and that tools like home video and the Internet have made it much more difficult to get away with crap like that.

I think too that since the error was made in the early 80s, all home video releases would have contained this error and generally people wouldn't have realized there WAS an error.  Of course, if people had known they would have wanted a corrected copy. 

But I think the primary difference is that Coppola actually shelled out the money to restore the original versions of "Godfather".  Even Spielberg is putting out ET on Blu-Ray and says it will be ONLY the original version.

Whereas George Lucas is aware that the original versions are slowly fading and rotting away, and not only doesn't he care, but he PREFERS it that way. 

EDIT: And according to some reports, the original negative has been deliberately vandalized (i.e. special edition shots were actually spliced into the NEGATIVE).  That isn't the same thing as some Paramount home video employee who didn't know what he was doing.

In fact, I strongly dislike the 2004 and 2011 cuts, but from a preservation standpoint they don't bother me at all.  They are the digital "George Lucas fan edits". 

The 1997 versions worry me much more because that was done on film and from what I've read it sounds like they just rendered the CGI scenes out to 35mm film and then cut up the ON to reflect the change.  If that's true, that's an almost unforgivable error. 

Baronlando said:

danny_boy said:

The Godfather was eventually treated to a restoration in 2008-----but it was in a severe state of disrepair prior to that point(even though new prints had been struck for the 25th anniversary in 1997)-----but Coppola did not recieve the same type of abuse that Lucas continues to get.

 

Do you not understand that Coppola, then and now, has NO ownership over the Godfather elements? They are the property of Paramount. Always. (and in fact when they were being neglected, Coppola was literally bankrupt). I can't tell if you're straining to make some mysterious, bogus point or just doing schtick.

We can thank Steven Spielberg for the Godfather restoration; another filmmaker who has decided not to tamper with his movies (any more, that is).

danny_boy said:

You missed my point mate.

Are you f**king serious? The only one who misses the point is you, the story about The Godfather films you bring up as an example of "why are people angry at Lucas but not Coppola" is ridiculous, this whole issue became news first when film-preservation expert Robert Harris started to work on the restoration, nobody knew about this, not even Paramount. And even if this had been known, there's no comparison... what the hell have this to do with Coppola?

I admit that some things I mentioned earlier were a bit silly, the separation masters and negative being in bad shape was obviously out of Lucas control, but when it became clear how bad the situation was for Star Wars, there should've been a serious restoration done, new preservation negatives created, a new print sent to the National Film Registry for preservation, instead of this he created The Special Edition and tried to get the NFR to preserve a print of that instead of the original film. All this from a man who is on the board of directors for The Film Foundation - an organization dedicated to protecting and preserving motion picture history. If this isn't enough he also basically tells the fanbase in the press from time to time who would like to see the films restored, to fuck off along with other bizarre statements.

If Lucasfilm doesn't get their act together soon and make a restoration, his crusade to eliminate these films will make him look even more ridiculous in a few years when some fans have scanned some prints and released those to the public. 

You know very well why people are upset, but if for some weird reason you don't, I'm afraid I cannot help you.

This probably doesn't mean much, I'm sure Lucas has some sort of contractual way of ensure we'll never see the OOT again. Lucasfilm doesn't really do much outside of marketing stuff out or putting their logo on things anyway since the PT ended. I'm not going to get too excited, it'll probably be business as usual. Move along.

Mike O said:

.....

 Move along.

 These are not the LFL change in directions we were looking for????

walking_carpet said:

Mike O said:

.....

 Move along.

 These are not the LFL change in directions we were looking for????

What we're looking for is a pipe-dream, there's a better chance of Richard Dawkins converting to Christianity than of the OOT ever getting properly restored.

Well, you can't really restore detail where there isn't to begin with.  On its own merits, the GOUT can't ever substitute a 35mm film source.  A laserdisc master just doesn't have that level of detail to begin with, but it especially doesn't when you take that master and blur it up to get rid of the grain.  Maybe one day software will be advanced enough to "create" enough on a guess that it could accurately resemble what a high-definition image would look like, but could you still even consider that the original anymore?

Gaffer Tape wrote:

There is a marked difference between an unrelated, random person accidentally screwing something up, after which a comprehensive restoration is made, and the creator deliberately going out of his way to keep his original films out of the way.

 

Oh absolutely----but one forgets that Coppola re-edited both Godfather I and II into one movie which was aired over 3 or 4 successive nights  on NBC in 1977-----in the pre-home video world ---- that was as good as redefining how the Godfather would be presented to an audience(the vast majority of which had no access to the new Betamax format or the more conventional  Umatic video systems----the Theatrical edit of the Godfather on VHS would not become available until circa 1980/81)

Here is Talia Shire(who starred in the film and is Coppola's sister) presenting this re-edit it as the "complete" version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm6-Ss6BmHI

At that point(late 1977/1978)----the only way to experience the Godfather in it's original form was to patiently wait for another theatrical re-run-----a situation not disimilar to what OUT fans are in now.

Whilst the TV version was met with mixed reviews from the critics I doubt there was no where near the same level of fan backlash to Coppola for "altering"the films the way he did.

It has nothing to do with "narrow-mindedness" (unless you're talking about George) or over-dissection of the movie.Being mad at Coppola over that would be like being mad at Lucas because an intern spilled Coke on the Yoda puppet.

Remember the humdinger glitch---- I seem to remember Lucas(and Lucasfilm) getting some tongue in cheek bashing!

But that's not a fair comparison because you're comparing something Coppola had no control over to something Lucas has every control over and wondering why no one is mad at Coppola. To use marketing speak, it's the difference between, "Oh, shit, we screwed up. Sorry about that," and, "It's a deliberate, creative decision."

The Godfather was released in 1997 to mark the 25th anniversary----the editing "misassembly" from the early 1980's could and probably should have been spotted and rectified for this same 1997 re-release------(and Coppola was involved in 97').

I do, however, see what you're getting at, although I have a different reaction. I say it's a shame that it wasn't widely documented back then, and that tools like home video and the Internet have made it much more difficult to get away with crap like that.

That's fair enough and understandable-----but it just seems to me there are 2 sets of standards----one for Lucas...and another for his contempraries/peers

Oh absolutely----but one forgets that Coppola re-edited both Godfather I and II into one movie which was aired over 3 or 4 successive nights  on NBC in 1977-----in the pre-home video world ---- that was as good as redefining how the Godfather would be presented to an audience(the vast majority of which had no access to the new Betamax format or the more conventional  Umatic video systems----the Theatrical edit of the Godfather on VHS would not become available until circa 1980/81)

You do insist on missing the point, don't you?

The Godfather situation isn't remotely parallel to the Star Wars situation. From 1977 to 1980 is only three years. By contrast, it has now been fifteen years since the Special Editions of Star Wars, and no decent transfer of the originals. Moreover, it's been, what, twenty-nine years since the "A New Hope" caption was added to Star Wars? And still no decent transfer of the pre-caption crawl, either. Additionally, Coppola made no concerted effort to suppress the originals of his films, which is what everyone is upset with George for in the first place.

You're comparing apples and oranges.

msycamore wrote:

 

Are you f**king serious? The only one who misses the point is you, the story about The Godfather films you bring up as an example of "why are people angry at Lucas but not Coppola" is ridiculous, this whole issue became news first when film-preservation expert Robert Harris started to work on the restoration, nobody knew about this, not even Paramount.

Well they knew about it-----they just did not have the technology to deal with it---and it is certainly true that having Spielberg wielding his influence within Paramount finally allowed Coppola to exert his authority.

Back in 1997, screening the highest-quality print of the film for its 25th anniversary was a disturbing experience for director Coppola. The ravages of time, print-making and some oddities in old splices were just some of the problems spelling a dim future for The Godfather and its first sequel, as well as for Paramount’s hopes to sell product to  millions who love the mob saga.

http://www.postmagazine.com/Publications/Post-Magazine/2008/November-1-2008/RESTORATION.aspx

When it became clear how bad the situation was for Star Wars, there should've been a serious restoration done, new preservation negatives created, a new print sent to the National Film Registry for preservation,

There was a seriouse restoration done to star wars in 1995!

Let's clarify one thing to make it understandable to all------the physical condition of the original camera negatives(that were used for printing in 72' and 77' respectively) of the Godfather and Star wars are roughly the same(despite the clean up and restoration done on them)----the Godfather is probably in worse condition.

The new Godfather 4K master files that are now used to generate new archival or theatrical prints were sourced from many elements(dupes/interpositives/outtakes and the original camera negative--itself)------in other words-----this 4k digital negative corresponds to only half of the OCN:

The newly restored Godfather relies on snippets of film culled from many sources. “There was no foundation left. It is a Frankenstein,” Harris says,

http://www.postmagazine.com/Publications/Post-Magazine/2008/November-1-2008/RESTORATION.aspx

 Is that any different to the Star War's"frankenstein" digital negative?

 

If Lucasfilm doesn't get their act together soon and make a restoration, his crusade to eliminate these films will make him look even more ridiculous in a few years when some fans have scanned some prints and released those to the public. You know very well why people are upset, but if for some weird reason you don't, I'm afraid I cannot help you.

Whoa`--- I am on the same side as you----I want to see the original edit in the best quality possible too------but bashing Lucas to do it is not the way to achieve that goal.

Akwat Kbrana said:

Oh absolutely----but one forgets that Coppola re-edited both Godfather I and II into one movie which was aired over 3 or 4 successive nights  on NBC in 1977-----in the pre-home video world ---- that was as good as redefining how the Godfather would be presented to an audience(the vast majority of which had no access to the new Betamax format or the more conventional  Umatic video systems----the Theatrical edit of the Godfather on VHS would not become available until circa 1980/81)

You do insist on missing the point, don't you?

The Godfather situation isn't remotely parallel to the Star Wars situation. From 1977 to 1980 is only three years. By contrast, it has now been fifteen years since the Special Editions of Star Wars, and no decent transfer of the originals. Moreover, it's been, what, twenty-nine years since the "A New Hope" caption was added to Star Wars? And still no decent transfer of the pre-caption crawl, either. Additionally, Coppola made no concerted effort to suppress the originals of his films, which is what everyone is upset with George for in the first place.

You're comparing apples and oranges.

Dude---in 1981 the amount of people who owned VHS machines(or laserdisc) was miniscule-----the vast majority of the public/fans  at that time would have been influenced by that re-edit that Coppola did for TV in 77'-----

But even within those 3 short years from 1977-81---- was there anything like the vitriolic hate towards Coppola like there is towards  Lucas for the re-edit of their respective movies----I don't think so.

As for surpressing originals---Spielberg did not release the Theatrical version of Close Encounters on home video until 2007( a full 30  years!!).

ok-- there was a branching laserdisc released in 1991 which contained it-----but it was very cumbersome to operate and apparently it still included a special edition sequence(Spielberg wanted it this way) even when you programmed it to display the theatrical assembly!-----and on top of that ----laserdisc was a niche market.

Did VHS/Beta,and V2000 owners and fans alike -----lambast Spielberg during this period for surpressing the original---fuck no!

Baronlando said:

OK, The Coppola/Godfather thing is exactly the same as Star Wars, in fact it's worse. Way to go, Coppola. Way to not do something that you could not have done anything about. And thanks a lot for losing my car keys too, Francis.

Well it's good to see you are no longer blamin' ol' George for losing your car keys eh?!