Sign In

George Lucas' explanation why the OT is obsolete to him — Page 2

Author
Time
Quote

Many people regard A New Hope as one of the classic SW films. Lucas wrote and directed that.


I agree. I'm talking baout how HE regards them.

Quote

Also, 20th Century Fox didn't have a whole lot of influence in the production. One reason for that is because Lucas made the film outside of Hollywood, so the studio could adopt an "out of sight, out of mind" approach regarding the film. Also, Lucas's biggest ally was Alan Ladd, jr, who could go to bat for Lucas anytime the production was threatened. Basically, Lucas made ANH more or less the way he wanted to (except for the effects and scale of everything). The studio were a bunch of jerks to him, but they didn't screw up the film as much as they could've.


I've still read interviews with him where he expressed frustration with the studio who wanted him to add in the Toshi station scene because they hated that the main hero didn't appear until almost 25 min into the movie. And I believe they wanted to see Han a lot earlier as well. There were some minor changes that GL had to obey, but once SW went through the roof he never had to listen to them again.


Quote

You're wrong. Lucas wrote all the drafts of ANH


I never said he didn't.

Quote

and was satisfied enough with the shooting draft to actually shoot it.


I know. Again, I never said he wasn't.

Quote

If there are stylistic differences between all the drafts (and I know there are), it's because Lucas changed revised the story and it's tone with each additional draft.


I agree. But never the less TPM is a lot closer to his first versions of SW then ANH. I'm not saying its better, I'm just saying that stylistically its closer to what he originally invisioned.

Quote

The tone of the drafts weren't different because of technological constraints.


Well GL contradicts himself so much in interviews its hard to tell. In some he says he always wanted to do the PT but had to wait for the technology to catch up. In others he says he never planned to do the PT and the episode numbers are just a little wink to old serial movies. In others he says that he wrote the whole saga, but realized that ANH would be the easiest/cheepiest/most commercial viable to do so he started with that one.

In any event, its pretty clear (at least IMHO) that he likes the pT a lot more then the OT, and whatever audiences may think this is how he wants the movies to be, and if the OT had not yet been made, and he was making it now with the technology/money/atonomy that he enjoys now, the OT would be a very different trio of movies and much more in the vein of the prequels.

Personally I enjoy GLs comperimised vision a lot more then his uncomprimised one, but thats just me.

Quote

Lucas wrote a scene in one of the original drafts depicting Anakin disappearing into a broom closet with some girl and when he came out, he was straightening his shirt, tucking it in, etc. I haven't seen that in the prequels yet!!


LOL no. Certainly his sensibilities have changed quite a bit, Greedo shooting first is the best example of this. A younger man would probably find it a lot cooler that Han would ice greedo the way he did, but I find even myself at the tender age of 25 becoming more sensitive to violence in movies, and I have no trouble imagining that GL has as well. As for Anakins sexual exploits. It would of been a different saga thats for sure, not nessesarily better, just different.

But then it was GL who wanted Indiana Jones to be a womanizer as well, with a pent house in Manhattan where he seduced his conquests. Spielberg quashed the idea, but GL says that since nothing in the movies says he doesn't have the penthouse, he always assumes that offscreen Indy is a getting a lot of action in Manhattan

And I dance. And I sing.
And I'm a monkey, in a long line of kings.
Author
Time
Maybe I glanced right over it somewhere up above, but what were the reasons that Lucas had someone else direct ESB and ROTJ?
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
Author
Time
According to Lucas, he was exhausted and thought it would be easier to manage that way, I believe he gave himself a heart attack making ANH (literally). But then when TPM came out he said he would direct all the prequels because getting another director just meant another person to fight with over creative differences and he wanted to elimiante that as much as possible. A purer path of getting his ideas to the screen with fewer intermediaries is how I interpretted it.

Whether this was the reasons back in 1980 I do not know. GL has a habit of changing more then his movies with time.
And I dance. And I sing.
And I'm a monkey, in a long line of kings.
Author
Time
Damn good point, Dayv.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
Author
Time
Of course, who says he hasn't gone in and "improved" that one as well?

Princess Leia: I happen to like nice men.
Han Solo: I'm a nice man.

Author
Time
Lucas wrote the drafts for all Star Wars movies. He thought up the universe and everything that was great about. Many other great minds made the movies but Lucas was the main guy. While not including the originals is one thing but don't critize the making of the Special Editions or future Ultimate Editions. Lucas attempted and failed to already do many of the Special Editions changes in the original versions. People often complain about Greedo shooting first but what about matte line deletion, more thriving cities, better creatures. So many changes that made the movies so much more alive. I never heard either of the directers of The Empire Strikes Back or Return of the Jedi complain about the Special Editions. Films evolve they are a changing growing process.
Author
Time
Well, for one thing Richard Marquand has past away, so complaints aside you're not going to hear much of anything from him.

And not to be cynical, but there is no way, under any circumstances that the director of one Star Wars movie (Kirshner) would ever tell the creator of Star Wars that he screwed up the movie. At least not publically, regardless of how he may actually feel. That's just the way the real world works, it would be bad form and unprofessional, even if they weren't close friends.

Besides it doesn't matter. Even if Kishner loved the changes, the SE can still be and should be critized because most of the changes are terrible. When you make a mistake, people can call you on it. It's up to the individual artist to decide whether to listen to honest opinions or not. And George just doesn't seem to care right now, which is too bad.
The original Star Wars trilogy: Our cultural history deserves to be preserved and should be available to the public like all great works of art!
Author
Time
Cleaning up any remnants of early unwanted side effects such as matte lines, white boxes around objects in space and opaque cockpits was never a thing critisized in the special editions. That's what SE fans always seem to put up as a major plus for the SEs. But, imho that's just the sugar that comes with Lucas' 'p.c. medicine' for the fans. It was never about 'giving fans something new and cool' it was about Lucas revoking compromises he had to make 20 years ago, getting back at the people who made him do those, and finally trying to 'convince' the audience by saying "if you want a cleaned up version without matte lines, white boxes and opaque cockpits, you'll have to stick with my new visions of the movies, period.". In my opinion, he should have put up a cleaned up (but otherwise untouched) version of the OT in theatres 1997 and wait with the changes until after the prequels. All we have now, is just another soon to be called 'early roughcut' version, that will become obsolete in 2007.

After all it seems that he isn't very confident in the changes himself, otherwise he wouldn't be so afraid to leave the choice up the customers.
All the negative experiences he seemed to have made during the creation process of the OT, have obviously turned him into a total control freak. It's a sad thing, imho.
Author
Time
Deleting Matte lines aren't the best changes. I absolutly loved the new cloud city. It was so cloustrophbic with no windows and besides the outside shots there is little indication of where they are. The windows opening on to the city made that better. I also loved the better views of the wampa and salac. As for the original dewbacks I didn't even know those were suppose to creatures until Lucas told me in the documentary. The Computer dewbacks are so much better. We never got a good look at them until now. The rings to the explosions made them realistic no way something that big can explode with no ring. The new shots on the deathstar fight make the original lacking. The transparent cockpits enchancements the end celebration the movies are so much more alive now then they ever were before. The Special Editions are a vast improvement people against them point to Greedo shoting first all the time. Yeah even I dislike that change but its so small I must have blinked or something but I didn't even notice it when first saw the Special Editions but I sure as hell noticed those awsome enhancements.
Author
Time
I have to say I do like some of the changes in the SE. And I'm absolutely not against the idea of an SE at all. All I can say is that when I watch the OT, I don't miss a single thing. Whereas the SE has a few disturbing things in them that kind of distract me from enjoying them as much as the OT versions, especially because there's no logical pattern to the kind of changes that were made. I'm constantly distracted by thoughts like "why oh why did he change that, but did not change that?!".

My gripes with some of the CGI stuff that was added in is, that they can be easily identified as such. They just don't blend in with the rest of the scenery in most cases. That's why I think 1997 was too early to make the SEs. Imho, they would have been much much better had they been made alongside the prequels.
Author
Time
Quote

Originally posted by: Master Sifo-Dyas
I have to say I do like some of the changes in the SE. And I'm absolutely not against the idea of an SE at all. All I can say is that when I watch the OT, I don't miss a single thing. Whereas the SE has a few disturbing things in them that kind of distract me from enjoying them as much as the OT versions, especially because there's no logical pattern to the kind of changes that were made. I'm constantly distracted by thoughts like "why oh why did he change that, but did not change that?!".

My gripes with some of the CGI stuff that was added in is, that they can be easily identified as such. They just don't blend in with the rest of the scenery in most cases. That's why I think 1997 was too early to make the SEs. Imho, they would have been much much better had they been made alongside the prequels.


In 2007 there will be versions to match the look of the prequals and a couple new scenes (already filmed) to tie the six films together. The 1997 were just the first step in an evolving process. The 2004 DVDs will include aditional changes but will not be the final versions according to the digital bits.
Author
Time
Yah, but as you can easily see in my sig, I'm looking forward to 2007 with mixed feelings to say the least.
My worst nightmare would be vader being replaced by jarjar who accidently bumps the emperor down the ventilation shaft. o_O
Author
Time
Did Marcia Lucas, make any statement on what she thought of the prequels?
Author
Time
I am looking forward to the new versions here is a list of changes.

Star Wars: Episode IV: A New Hope 01. The Imperial March has been added to Darth Vader's first appearance on Princess Leia's ship. 02. When Obi-Wan is talking to Luke about his father Anakin's Theme plays in the background and then it turns into the Imperial March as he talks about Vader. 03. The lightsaber effects have been redone and the frame jumps of lightsabers being turned on has been removed. 04. There's a new scene which has been shot during the filming of Episode III in which the Emperor dissolves the Senate. 05. In the Cantina, the Duros(green aliens guys) have been replaced with Neimoidians and some aliens from the prequels have been added. 06. The bleeding arm on the floor in the Cantina has been replaced with a non-bleeding arm because it's now canon that lightsabers cauterize wounds. 07. The original shooting scene between Han and Greedo has been restored. 08. Jabba the Hutt has been given a makeover and Han no longer steps on his tale. 09. In place of R2 wobbling down the stairs to the Falcon's hangar, a CG R2 navigating the stairs like he does in Attack of the Clones was added. 11. The white boxes around space ships have been removed and new CG shots have been added. 12. The scene of the Falcon being chased by the two Star Destroyers was modified. The Falcon now does spinning moves, avoiding the Star Destroyers' fire. 13. When the Death Star destroys Alderaan there's a new scene of Yoda's reaction to the disturbence in the Force that is created by all those deaths and then it cuts to Obi-Wan reacting to it as well. 14. The Dianoga has gotten a CG makeover and we're now able to see more of the creature. 15. The Death Star's paneling and computers have been slightly altered to show similar displays to those in the prequels. 16. The words "Tractor Beam" have been replaced with Aurebesh lettering. 17. More stormtroopers have been added to the Death Star. 18. Temuera Morrison's voice is being recorded for use with all the stormtroopers. 19. The Obi-Wan/Vader duel has been spruced up. It is much more epic and there is much more movement. A modified version of Duel of the Fates is being considered for the scene. 20. The Death Star plans that are taken from R2 have been updated. When the Rebels are reviewing the Death Star plans they look similar to the plans we see in Attack of the Clones. 21. The Death Star battle is much more epic with more Tie Fighters and more Rebels being blown to bits. We get to see old Naboo starfighters being used by the Rebels. 22. There's a new scene(shot during Episode III) where Darth Vader goes to Coruscant and lands his ship in the same building Count Dooku does at the end of Attack of the Clones. Except now the building is all fixed up and it is now Palpatine's palace. He meets with Palpatine to ask for forgiveness for his failure and inform him of a new pontential who is strong in the Force. 23. Chewbacca now gets a medal.

Star Wars: Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back 01. The taun-tauns are now CG. 02. The battle of Hoth is much more epic. We see the Imperial ships land on Hoth and release AT-ATs. The AT-ATs have been sped up a bit. There's a ground battle between the Rebel soldiers and stormtroopers featuring new ships and vechicles. 03. Temuera Morrison's voice is being recorded for the older Boba Fett and all the stormtroopers. 04. The white boxes around space ships have been removed. 05. The slug monster is CG. 06. George Lucas has refilmed the Emperor's conversation with Vader using Ian McDiarmid in the makeup. Their meeting is now much longer and features a few connections to the prequels. The plan is for James Earl Jones to record the new dialogue when he comes in to do Episode III. 07. Yoda's face is now animated in CG allowing more expression of emotions, yet his movements remain the same. Also two deleted scenes featuring Yoda instructing Luke have been restored. 08. A new scene was shot in which the stormtroopers, after they capture Han, Leia and Chewie, bring Vader the box containing C-3PO in pieces. Vader orders the stormtroopers to bring the broken droid to Chewbacca's cell so that he can fix him. 09. The lightsaber effects have been redone in certain parts. 10. Luke's fall from Cloud City has been reshot against bluescreen using a stuntman and Mark Hammil has been to the ranch to record a new scream.

Star Wars: Episode VI: Return of the Jedi 01. Jabba the Hutt is now a combination of the puppet and CG. 02. The Rancor is CG and looks disgusting as ever. 03. Yoda is CG. Yoda disappears leaving his clothes behind like Obi-Wan now. 04. The ewoks are now mostly CG and there are a lot more of them. 05. The plan is to insert the love theme Across the Stars when Luke is talking with Leia about their mother. 06. Temuera Morrison's like before is now the voice for Boba Fett and all the stormtroopers. 07. In the battle of Endor there are thousands of Ewoks and they are more vicious than there midgets-in-suits counterparts. More bite the dust now. 08. White boxes around ships removed. 09. The black blotches around Palpatine's face are gone and some new footage of the Emperor has been shot using Ian. 10. The lightsaber effects have been redone. The shadows that the lightsabers made on the floor are gone. 11. During Anakin's death scene it starts with a sad rendition of the Imperial March and slowly evolves into Anakin's Theme. John Williams recorded his redition of it on the piano and it is now being used as a temp track until he can properly orchestrate it. 12. Sebastion Shaw who played Anakin when he was unmasked has been replaced with Hayden Christenson in make-up to make him look older. Anakin has much more dialogue. He apologizes for the destruction he caused, he thanks his son for turning him back to the light, he tells his son to rebuild the Jedi and he says he loves him and his sister. Just before he dies he says, "It is finished...". 13. We see more planets celebrating at the end of the movie on Naboo celebrating with the people of Naboo and the Gungans. We see an old Watto, who is now unable to fly, sitting in a hover chair cheering on Tatooine. During these scenes Across the Stars plays transitioning to the victory celebration music at the Ewok tree village. 14. Anakin's spirit is now played by Hayden Christenson with make-up to make him look his age. 15. George Lucas, during the filming of Episode III, shot a new final scene that he thought would be a perfect end to his saga. The new scene features Luke, Leia, Han, Lando, Chewbacca, R2-D2 and C-3PO exiting the Millenium Falcon on one of the floating landing platforms of Coruscant, in front of the Senate. A large crowd of greatful people applaud them. We see camera droids recording the arrival of the heroes for the galaxy to see. Luke raises his arms in the air with his lightsaber in his hand and ignites it. Credits role. The scene was shot using the best doubles that could be found. The new scene already looks great as is but the shots are now being worked on by a crew at ILM, who intend to recreate the actors faces circa 1982 and won't be satisfied until it's perfect.
Author
Time
Errr... that's just that rumor list some fan posted on AICN. Imho, it is pretty obvious these are fakes, because there is a list of severe changes for EpI and II posted by the same guy that get pretty much out of hand. Although I will admit that some of the changes are very well imaginable for the archive editions, I still doubt this is the 'true changelog' for them. I'm curious about the archive editions myself. But I'd be more excited to hear some good news about the OT on DVD - if you catch my meaning, sir.
Author
Time
Quote

Errr... that's just that rumor list some fan posted on AICN. Imho, it is pretty obvious these are fakes, because there is a list of severe changes for EpI and II posted by the same guy that get pretty much out of hand. Although I will admit that some of the changes are very well imaginable for the archive editions, I still doubt this is the 'true changelog' for them.


Bingo! This is not a list, its just a wish list that TF.n made up, and i know this because Josh told me personally. SOme of these changes are likely to happen, but this is by no means the actual list. The actual list is probabaly still in the works, or not even started, because as he's said many times, GL is waiting until EP3 is done to worry about the dvds.

Quote

Originally posted by: Master Sifo-Dyas
In my opinion, he should have put up a cleaned up (but otherwise untouched) version of the OT in theatres 1997 and wait with the changes until after the prequels. All we have now, is just another soon to be called 'early roughcut' version, that will become obsolete in 2007."


That was always my opinion as well. The OT would of done just as well in rerelease because it was a chance for those like me who had never seen them in theatres to see them on the big screen. Infact he could of waited a bit longer, like 1998 so that the OT rerelease would have the TPM trailers infront of it, that really would of hyped people up.

Then when the PT was done he could go in and do one SE, with the most uptodate CG of the time and a clear idea of anything that needed to be added to fit with the PT (ie Jimmy Smitts)

Of course half the reason the SE was done (according to a lucas interview in premiere circa 1999) was to get 20thcentury fox to pay for what essentially was R&D for the prequel FX. GL wanted to see what could be done with CG for SW and he decided to do it on Fox's nickle. In the end the SE's toppled the boxoffice during their theatrical release and everyone made money off of it. But accord to Lucas the main incentive was to test the CG.
And I dance. And I sing.
And I'm a monkey, in a long line of kings.
Author
Time
Quote

The rings to the explosions made them realistic no way something that big can explode with no ring.


Jimbo is now our selfproclaimed planetary explosion expert.

Are we basing this ring thing on anything other then what we see of planetary explosions in other sci-fi movies from the midnineties or is there some physical basis for this. Startrek 6 was the first to have the ring effect to the exploding moon, and Stargate had a similar effect not long after.
And I dance. And I sing.
And I'm a monkey, in a long line of kings.
Author
Time
Hehe, thanks for the link, jimbo. Although I least expected to get a link to something like that from you.
Edit: LMAO, the "Greedo shoots himself" part is hilarious.
Author
Time
Quote

Originally posted by: Master Sifo-Dyas
Hehe, thanks for the link, jimbo. Although I least expected to get a link to something like that from you.

Well, the thing I always liked was the flaming ring emitting from the Death Star upon explosion. To have fire, you need oxygen. Or so I was taught by science professors. And does oxygen exist in outer space? Nope. While it can be argued that it is burning off the oxygen that was within the Death Star, that would pretty much burn up upon the initial explosion. I wouldn't think that a ring of oxygen would be emitted from the Death Star conveniently allowing a "flaming ring" to result.
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
Author
Time
As far as I know, the shockwave ring that was taken to 'enhance' all of the planetary explosions, was meant as an homage to one of the old StarTrek movies. I also think it's a bit pointless to talk about realism when referring to a StarWars movie. I'm pretty sure that a 'scientifically correct' exploding planet would look neither like the old nor the new version. I just like the old explosions better - it's as simple as that. Long live unrealism!
Author
Time
Quote

Originally posted by: Master Sifo-Dyas
Long live unrealism!

Well, if that's the nomenclature we're running with... AMEN, BROTHER SIFO!!
"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'."
--Vizzini (Wallace Shawn), The Princess Bride
-------------------------
Kevin A
Webmaster/Primary Cynic
kapgar.typepad.com
kapgar.com
Author
Time
Does anyone really buy that the SE's are what Mr Lucas originally envisioned when he made the old versions? Did he really picture Jabba as he appeared in ROTJ when he made "A New Hope?" Or did he just decide that he liked the way Jabba looked -after- ROTJ was made? The scenes in the SE's that irked me most personally were the "humorous" scenes, such as the robots hitting each other at the start of the Mos Eisley sequence and the new song in Jabbas Palace. I think his sense of humor has changed since he made the original trilogy and I don't like it (ref: Jarjar Binks... Aargh!)

I simply don't accept that all the changes he made were to make the movies as he originally intended them. Many of these changes could have been done in the original; you don't need CGI to make Luke scream as he falls down the shaft (that particulr addition makes me cringe; isn't it the same scream that the emperor made as he fell down the shaft in ROTJ? How cheap is that? Or maybe the emperor is Lukes grandfather...) Personally I think many of the changes in the SE were superficial, like he felt he needed to make enough changes and add enough new "stuff" to justify calling it the Special Edition, especially in ROTJ; I mean, it makes sense to some degree that he couldn't do much of what he wanted to in ANH as technology/budget were limited, but by the time ROTJ was made he had plenty of dough and the effects were pretty much flawless IMHO. Certainly the scenes using models looked more 'real' to me than the CGI stuff, which you could spot immediately even if you never saw the originals.

BTW as far as the explosions being realistic is concerned, I don't think it's an issue, if you want things to be as they would in real life for a start you would have to get rid of most of the sound effects as everyone knows sound doesn't carry in space. Actually the "ring" was one of the few additions I liked, but for me that isn't the issue. I don't think GL should go back and rewrite the Star Wars novel and cut out all the bits he doesn't like anymore, add in all the bits he wants now and hold a public book burning to destroy all the first editions; the book is the way it is and if I want to read it that way I should be able to. I want the original movies as they were in DVD format, simple as that. I have the VHS versions but the quality simply isn't as good as the DVD format. I don't care about "special features", interveiws, screen savers or any of that stuff, I just want to be able to watch the starwars movies I like in the best format currently available. Mr Lucas doesn't have to watch them if he doesn't want to.

Personally I am going to boycott the DVD if it is just the SE. Not just as a protest but because I really don't like it, I would rather watch the good version on VHS. But even if you do like the SE but still want to see the original on DVD one day, maybe you will consider boycotting to. It may be the only way to convince him to change his mind.
-Everyone is entitled to my opinion-
Author
Time
Welcome, Samatar. I look forward to some stimulating discussion of the OT vs. SE with you, as do others here.

Princess Leia: I happen to like nice men.
Han Solo: I'm a nice man.