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George Lucas: Unreliable Narrator & Time Travelling Revisionist... — Page 5

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I’m a fan of differing multiversal canons. A single monolithic canon has never done it for me.

The “I am your father” twist is great but it’s also fun to think about Vader as some other variety of related-to-Luke-somehow villain. E.g., maybe he’s Luke’s older brother, or a clone of his father, or maybe even Ben Kenobi’s son.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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I’ve got a scan from a magazine article, but I don’t remember where I got it. I think it’s from a magazine published in Britain, and it is from 1978. In it, Prowse says the Vader will be revealed as Luke’s father in “Star Wars II”. This seems to contradict the idea that Prowse was not told about this. I’d upload the don’t see any way to do this.

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I heard about that, but given that he then went on to say that Luke would turn to the dark side, I think he was joking. He was using that twist as an example of a ridiculous plot point that could never happen, not knowing that they were actually planning to use that twist.

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To me it seems probable that Prowse put two and two together faster than anyone else in the cast - and then talked endlessly to magazines about his personal theory as to what was likely to happen in ESB, rather than keeping quiet for the sake of maintaining the surprise.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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StarkillerAG said:

I heard about that, but given that he then went on to say that Luke would turn to the dark side, I think he was joking. He was using that twist as an example of a ridiculous plot point that could never happen, not knowing that they were actually planning to use that twist.

This is all it said in the article I had. I feel like he was serious.

"Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker…are hooked up in a do-or-die light saber duel when Luke learns that Darth is, in fact, his long-lost father. “Father can’t kill son, son can’t kill father,” Prowse said. "So they live again in “Star Wars IV.” (Wild cheers.)

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I decided to actually go back and read the article, and Prowse says that Vader would be revealed to be Luke’s father in the third movie, not Empire. So it was probably just a lucky guess.

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ATMachine said:

To me it seems probable that Prowse put two and two together faster than anyone else in the cast - and then talked endlessly to magazines about his personal theory as to what was likely to happen in ESB, rather than keeping quiet for the sake of maintaining the surprise.

I have a hard time believing Prowse figured it out based only on the first movie since Lucas doesn’t seem to have decided to make Anakin and Vader the same person until the ESB 2nd draft. Though it does suddenly occur to me that Vader could be Luke’s father without Vader and Anakin being the same person.

I could believe perhaps that Prowse just made it up, and it coincidentally turned out to be true.

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Vader’s identity was always likely to be a big surprise twist of some sort - though not originally him being the same person as Father Skywalker. Prowse probably just arrived at the solution that Lucas also ultimately hit on.

Maybe he even asked George at one point and George’s response was noncommittal enough for him to realize it was on the money. Hell, maybe Prowse even gave Lucas the idea.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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Mocata said:

So I randomly thought about this interview between George and Leonard Maltin. It was on the last VHS release of the OOT (I always fast forwarded it as a kid). Interestingly George seems kinda relaxed here, and not awkward and bitter. Maybe because this is before hate towards him because of the Special Editions and the prequels. The flannel shirts are also absent…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-LvSbsEDI4

It’s pretty brief and was originally split over 3 tapes. However some tid-bits for this thread:
He says he first wrote his own space opera, inspired by Flash Gordon. Did he ever write his own version though?
Still claims SW is the “first act” of a much larger script. Also mentions the alleged “back story” about Anakin’s wife.
Says he’s writing all 3 prequels at once, but then during pre-production of one of them (maybe EpII?) he sees all the designers at work and says something like “I better start on this script”…
Claims the twins reveal and the redemption of Vader was always part of the back-story.

Wow! I must have watched that interview a dozen times in the 90’s, but I have absolutely no memory of Lucas discussing the PT. I remember a lot of that interview, but even seeing the PT part again doesn’t jog my memory of that.

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Given I got the Faces trilogy when I was probably 4 I don’t think much of what Maltin and Lucas were discussing sank in with me at the time. It actually probably wasn’t even until the prequel era that some of what they were discussing I began to pay attention too and I suppose it was around that time I started noticing the preview discussion of the PT.

Most of it is at the end of the ROTJ interview. Lucas mentions that he’s working on them all at once and that the first would be out in ‘98 or ‘99. Maltin concludes with something like “so in the new millennium we can look forward to the prequel trilogy??” to which George says “definitely”.

Technically George’s message on the outer box of the Faces set makes a subtle reference to the PT coming up when he says something “I hope you all will continue to not only enjoy this Trilogy but the upcoming events in the continually unfolding Star Wars universe” or something to that effect.

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The Secret History of Star Wars – Exclusive (Audio) Interview with Michael Kaminski – SWR #445’ (68 minutes):-

http://www.starwarsreport.com/2020/08/25/the-secret-history-of-star-wars-exclusive-interview-w-michael-kaminski-swr-445
 

Topics:-

• GL and his “liberties” with the making of Star Wars
• 3 films, 6 films? 12 films?
• Father Skywalker becomes Vader
• ESB’s aha moment
• The beginning of Skywalker Ranch
• The Marcia Lucas affair
• The dark days of Skywalker Ranch and Star Wars
• GL’s experimental films
• The Disney Era
 

Well worth a listen - especially if you haven’t yet read the ‘The Secret History of Star Wars’ book.

 

The Star Wars Report’ - a Star Wars blog and podcast network: http://www.starwarsreport.com
 

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Oh cool! Happy to see Zombie pop up somewhere. I still wish he hadn’t disappeared from the site.

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
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 (Edited)

At one time I was actually pissed at Lucas… but I’ve long since forgiven him. I’ve even let my anger towards the leadership and spokespeople at Disney Lucasfilm subside. I just don’t care anymore. This is a fictional entertainment franchise intended to generate profit and that has never changed. I have long been able to accept that the stories evolved over time and as entertaining as many of movies are, there are certainly continuity issues that were not inevitable.

These are just some movies I liked as a kid that aren’t bad in their original form that I would watch again now and then and appreciate them for what they are, sci-fi fairy stories for modern Westerners like me. Some of the expansion material and games were fun too, and I am nostalgic about some of those. They’ll never “go away” just because they’re not canon.

I’m very grateful for communities like this that keep that spirit alive, and offer alternatives and glimpses back into the classic versions, without having to force myself (no pun intended) to try to justify or fit the new stuff all together into some kind of coherent religious worldview and really like it. To the ones who still want to do that though, God help you… (and if it produces a fine fan edit, I’ll give it a chance, no arguments here!)

I loved the Secret History of Star Wars, even if it read like a bunch of blog entries and forum posts pasted together. I loved the feeling of vindication it gave a fan who realized a lot of the hype was just that (but hadn’t done the research to be able to prove it to defensive skeptics), even though underneath it all here was a really creative and fun series of movies. I enjoyed the “Making of…” as well. I am grateful for obsessive types (of which I consider myself one) of this fandom who can share and compile and spread such information, not to destroy the fun of other fans (as they often assume about us, sadly) but to simply allow them to see through the mists of propaganda and discover the true origins of their beloved entertainment that is far more interesting than the manufactured myths. Thank you!

<i>TCBOO</i>

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 (Edited)

Regarding #7, of course back when the original trilogy was being made it was about Luke and he was the main character. George has never denied that. He even admitted in one of the ROTS featurettes that Vader was originally just going to be a pathetic henchmen, but because he became so iconic he eventually grew to be the amazing complex character we have today that is now the most well-developed in all of Star Wars. After George made the prequels it become the story of Anakin/Vader as the prequels focused on him and he was a prominent figure in the original trilogy, his character journey being concluded in those three movies (which by the way, just shows how good the original trilogy is; it satisfyingly concludes a character journey created 20 years later). You can’t say the entire saga is about Luke when he’s only present in 4/6 movies, and he’s a very very very minor part at the very end of one of those four, so really only half of the saga.

Luke may be the protagonist of the original trilogy alone, but the whole overarching (pre-Disney) saga is about the rise, fall, and redemption of Anakin.

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oojason said:

 
The Secret History of Star Wars – Exclusive (Audio) Interview with Michael Kaminski – SWR #445’ (68 minutes):-

http://www.starwarsreport.com/2020/08/25/the-secret-history-of-star-wars-exclusive-interview-w-michael-kaminski-swr-445
 

Topics:-

• GL and his “liberties” with the making of Star Wars
• 3 films, 6 films? 12 films?
• Father Skywalker becomes Vader
• ESB’s aha moment
• The beginning of Skywalker Ranch
• The Marcia Lucas affair
• The dark days of Skywalker Ranch and Star Wars
• GL’s experimental films
• The Disney Era
 

Well worth a listen - especially if you haven’t yet read the ‘The Secret History of Star Wars’ book.

 

The Star Wars Report’ - a Star Wars blog and podcast network: http://www.starwarsreport.com
 

I’d read a lot of ‘The Secret History’ recently so it was pretty nifty to hear from Kaminski again so recently. I think it’s interesting that he still insists Lucas came up with Father Vader while writing the second draft, which made the most sense when ‘The Secret History’ first came out but since then both ‘The Making of The Empire Strikes Back’ and the full text of the ‘Future Life’ magazine piece had emerged and suggest Lucas was already considering it before then.

I guess it’s not the biggest deal (certainly the second draft is when Lucas decided to go with Father Vader, likely for all the reasons Kaminski outlined), but I was curious how developments since his book came out might have reshaped his theories, and it doesn’t seem like they have at all.

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 (Edited)

Just a quick correction for section #7 - Brian Daley’s “Han Solo” novels were published in 1979 (Stars End) and 1980 (Revenge and Lost Legacy), not 1987. They remain some of my favorite bits of Star Wars lore, and George thought well enough of them to have Daley script the NPR radio dramas (which are also generally excellent). Daley had a great feel for the pre-ESB Star Wars universe - it’s a shame he died so young and didn’t have a chance to play with the universe a bit more.

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 (Edited)

Thank you for the correction Pakka - it is very much appreciated. I’ve amended my mistake (and also gave you a mention for providing the correct info) 👍
 

It has been a long while since I’ve read those - will have to try and make some time and do so again.

 
 

G&G-Fan said:

Regarding #7, of course back when the original trilogy was being made it was about Luke and he was the main character. George has never denied that. He even admitted in one of the ROTS featurettes that Vader was originally just going to be a pathetic henchmen, but because he became so iconic he eventually grew to be the amazing complex character we have today that is now the most well-developed in all of Star Wars. After George made the prequels it become the story of Anakin/Vader as the prequels focused on him and he was a prominent figure in the original trilogy, his character journey being concluded in those three movies (which by the way, just shows how good the original trilogy is; it satisfyingly concludes a character journey created 20 years later). You can’t say the entire saga is about Luke when he’s only present in 4/6 movies, and he’s a very very very minor part at the very end of one of those four, so really only half of the saga.

^ “but because he became so iconic he eventually grew to be the amazing complex character” - indeed, with the focus on ‘became’…

The quote in Category 7, from George Lucas himself, states:-

“It’s really a story about Darth Vader. Luke and Leia became central figures and had a strong impact. But I knew if I gave Darth Vader his due, you would understand what a tragic story the whole thing was and it would change the way you look at the other movies. So that’s why I did it.”

^ More retcons from George there (amongst others from that same interview). Luke didn’t ‘become’ a central figure - he already was the central figure. To say nothing of George’s attempt at also downplaying the importance of Luke as he ‘had a strong impact’ in that quote. There is also an inference from George words that Vader’s story and prominence to Star Wars was planned all along - which we know is not the case.

Some examples of the above are given in Category 7 - where various Star Wars releases from the saga (or franchise) were subtitled ‘From The Adventures Of Luke Skywalker’ to give them a SW identity / link that they were part of the ‘Star Wars’ saga or universe - even when having little-to-nothing to do with erm… Luke Skywalker himself.

 
 

Edit: Category 49 - ‘The removal of official Star Wars releases from ‘Canon’ - no longer widely acknowledged / referenced - or available on a modern digital format…’ has now been completed.

I’ll try and motivate myself to start work on Categories 24, 25, & 26 soon too… though any ideas, suggestions, or contributions are most welcome (as ever 😃).
 

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G&G-Fan said:

Luke may be the protagonist of the original trilogy alone, but the whole overarching (pre-Disney) saga is about the rise, fall, and redemption of Anakin.

I just threw up in my mouth. The OT and PT do not match up well at all. Nor does the OT and the ST. The OT was designed around Luke and it was later Lucas nonsense that tried to tie it into the PT and make the 6 films about Vader.

If the PT was going to be about anyone, it should have been about Obi-wan and his failure to train Anakin/Vader properly.

I honestly have no clue as to what the ST is about, thanks to it having no over-arching vision or purpose.

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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 (Edited)

I always liked the idea of the 6 films being Anakin’s story, but after rewatching the OT, it became clear that that was never meant to be the case originally. If the prequels had been made first, the OT would have been written extremely differently, especially the character of Vader. Vader in ANH is not really at the center of the story. And there’s nothing in the OT to suggest that Vader is a child of prophecy. He was simply a powerful Jedi who betrayed the Order to the Empire, and also had a son and daughter that were hidden from him and the Emperor. His importance to the story came from his high ranking in the Empire, his status as a traitor to the Jedi Order, and his relationship to Luke. It was the prequels that tried to attach much greater importance to Anakin and to make him the center of the story and main character of the saga. But the Anakin we were given wasn’t strong enough to really fill that role. Even George himself at one point said that Vader was meant to be ultimately a pathetic character. A sickly, deformed man in a metallic suit who betrayed everything he’d once stood for and made enemies of his best friend and his own children. The prequels had a chance to make us sympathize with Anakin and help us feel pity for Vader, but I don’t think they did a very good job of that.

The 9-part saga feels very disjointed now, because the PT and ST both try to redefine the saga in ways that don’t line up with each other or the OT. Lucasfilm has tried to push the idea that the saga is about the Skywalker family as a whole, but in the end, they’re mostly irrelevant to the final outcome of Episode IX.

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Servii said:

I always liked the idea of the 6 films being Anakin’s story, but after rewatching the OT, it became the clear that that was never meant to be the case originally. If the prequels had been made first, the OT would have been written extremely differently, especially the character of Vader. Vader in ANH is not really at the center of the story. And there’s nothing in the OT to suggest that Vader is a child of prophecy. He was simply a powerful Jedi who betrayed the Order to the Empire, and also had a son and daughter that were hidden from him and the Emperor. His importance to the story came from his high ranking in the Empire, his status as a traitor to the Jedi Order, and his relationship to Luke. It was the prequels that tried to attach much greater importance to Anakin and to make him the center of the story and main character of the saga. But the Anakin we were given wasn’t strong enough to really fill that role. Even George himself at one point said that Vader was meant to be ultimately a pathetic character. A sickly, deformed man in a metallic suit who betrayed everything he’d once stood for and made enemies of his best friend and his own children.

The 9-part saga feels very disjointed now, because the PT and ST both try to redefine the saga in ways that don’t line up with each other or the OT. Lucasfilm has tried to push the idea that the saga is about the Skywalker family as a whole, but in the end, they’re mostly irrelevant to the final outcome of Episode IX.

As Ewan McGregor correctly noted, there is the OT…and then there is everything else. And everything else mostly sucks.

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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The original EU became the heart of the series for me over time growing up. I got burned out post ROTS and rediscovered my SW fandom when I discovered likeminded fans here on OT and then realized there was a far longer back history to unearth.

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
https://www.youtube.com/c/DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader