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George Lucas: Star Wars Creator, Unreliable Narrator & Time Travelling Revisionist... — Page 8

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What I said was really simple. The Darth Vader we know and love today is basically Kane Starkiller and General Vader combined into one character. Kane was a rogue Jedi cyborg and Annikin Starkiller’s father (who became Luke). Darth Vader in the original drafts was simply a general for the empire. The final incarnation of Darth Vader is second in command of the emperor, a Sith lord who broke away from the Jedi, a cyborg, and Luke Skywalker’s father.

So yes, from a certain point of view, Vader was always gonna be Luke’s father. Or at least, there was always an element of “rogue Jedi cyborg is the protagonists dad”.

I’m assuming when Lucas said it was about Annikin and his kids, he probably either misspoke, mixed up the characters, or he said that for convenience because he didn’t want to have to go on and explain who Kane was.

My Star Wars Fan-Edits

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G&G-Fan said:

What I said was really simple. The Darth Vader we know and love today is basically Kane Starkiller and General Vader combined into one character. Kane was a rogue Jedi cyborg and Annikin Starkiller’s father (who became Luke). Darth Vader in the original drafts was simply a general for the empire. The final incarnation of Darth Vader is second in command of the emperor, a cyborg and Luke Skywalker’s father.

So yes, from a certain point of view, Vader was always gonna be Luke’s father. Or at least, there was always an element of “rogue cyborg Jedi is the protagonists dad”.

I’m assuming when Lucas said it was about Annikin and his kids, he probably either misspoke, mixed up the characters, or he said that for convenience because he didn’t want to have to go on and explain who Kane was.

George in the interview you reference says:

“the very very first script it was about, um, Annikin Starkiller and his two kids. And, er, he was a rogue Jedi, and, um, there were remnants of that that sort of found its way into the final Star Wars.”

As demonstrated in my previous post, this is obviously not so: Annikin is not a rogue Jedi at all in the “very very first script” (the 1974 rough draft). Neither is he rogue, nor a Jedi, but he is the son of a Jedi. Nor does Annikin have kids.

So it is far from your claim, based on George’s quote above, that:

“Vader was always gonna be Luke’s father. It was just discarded but then we ended up getting something that more resembled the original idea.”

It never was “the original idea” that Vader was Luke’s father. “The original idea” had Vader, Valorum, Kane, Annikin, among many others. They are 4 completely separate characters, as they appear in “the very very first script” I linked to.

In my previous post I do list these 4 completely separate characters and their attributes in the early scripts that the Vader character merges with and becomes over time. But is it not simply two characters you refer to combining into one character. And it certainly did not happen in the “very very first script”.

Can you provide a link to this “very very first script” that George is talking about? Are you referring to the 1974 rough draft, which has the 4 completely separate characters, as I describe above, and in the previous post?

The Imperial need for control is so desperate because it is so unnatural. Tyranny requires constant effort. It breaks, it leaks. Authority is brittle. Oppression is the mask of fear.

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First of all, I’m not claiming that Kane and General Vader were combined into one character in the early drafts, nor did I ever say that. I’m saying that the Vader we ended up getting post-ESB is basically a combination of those two characters (though from your previous post it seems he was also combined with Prince Valorum). Vader always being Luke’s father is technically correct as the current character of Vader is basically half Kane, who was a rogue Jedi cyborg and father of Annikin (Luke). There’s even the part where Kane sacrifices himself to save the heroes, just like ROTJ Vader.

Second of all, I think it’s very obvious that Lucas is talking about Kane and not Annikin in that quote. He likely mixed them up. As I already said.

My Star Wars Fan-Edits

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G&G-Fan said:

First of all, I’m not claiming that Kane and General Vader were combined into one character in the early drafts. I’m saying that the Vader we ended up getting post-ESB is basically a combination of those two characters.

Second of all, I think it’s very obvious that Lucas is talking about Kane and not Annikin in that quote. He likely mixed them up. As I already said.

“Lucas misspoke?”, he is “talking about Kane and not Annikin”, and “he said that for convenience because he didn’t want to have to go on and explain who Kane was”?

No. Sorry, that just doesn’t work.

Your premise of “Vader was always gonna be Luke’s father” is based on that Lucas quote. Which seems like Lucas being disingenuous once more, possibly misremembering, or caught out lying again, than what you claim it could be. His quote certainly does not hold up well to scrutiny at all, does it?

Plus, it is more like a combination of the 4 characters I listed, not two characters as you state: which I why I suggested you reading the early scripts, the 2014 comic, and also “The Secret History Of Star Wars” book.

I’ll leave it there as your premise of is short on credibility and evidence, and has some stretches and mental gymnastics going on. And I do feel like I am repeating myself. But as I said earlier, everyone is free to believe what they wish.

And if nothing else, on the evidence we have, I’m more convinced than ever after looking this stuff up over time: the scripts, TSHoSW book, Rinzler’s books, this thread, and even Lucasfilm claims: that Vader was never even thought of as being Luke’s father at all, until the time of that 2nd draft of Empire in April 1978.

The Imperial need for control is so desperate because it is so unnatural. Tyranny requires constant effort. It breaks, it leaks. Authority is brittle. Oppression is the mask of fear.

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It isn’t just based on the quote lol, it’s also based on the very clear fact that the Vader we got has elements of Kane’s character, who was the father of the character who’d become Luke, a rogue Jedi (Vader is a Jedi turned Sith), and a cyborg.

My Star Wars Fan-Edits

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Emre, are you trolling? G&G’s point seems crystal clear, are you purposefully misunderstanding?

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Omni said:

Emre, are you trolling? G&G’s point seems crystal clear, are you purposefully misunderstanding?

No, I don’t think he is. Though he may be confused by G&G-Fan’s claim? I was.

If you read G&G-Fan’s original post on this…

G&G-Fan said:

Regarding the thing about Vader always being Luke’s father, I found some info about why Lucas might have said this.

George Lucas said:

“Well, to be very honest with you, when I wrote the very very first script it was about Annikin Starkiller and his two kids. And, uh, he was a rogue Jedi, and there were remnants of that [draft] that found its way into the final Star Wars.”
-MovieFone Unscripted, 2005

So from a certain point of view, Vader was always gonna be Luke’s father. It was just discarded but then we ended up getting something that more resembled the original idea.

Well, if you look at George’s quote in the interview (and the linked video) it certainly does not add up to what we now know from the early script drafts. As we are in a thread where citations and evidence are key, and used to back up claims, it does seem a strange choice of information for G&G-Fan to use to then claim “Vader was always gonna be Luke’s father”, or for any other claim.

Emre asks for a link to this “very very first script” to further understand what G&G-Fan means, but isn’t given one. So Emre explains his understanding and thoughts, and lets G&G-Fan know the early draft scripts, “The Star Wars” 2014 comic, and The Secret History of Star Wars book are all good sources of further information.

Emre may be confused? He did say he was. I know I was! I’m sure Emre will speak for himself, but that isn’t trolling.
 

Bu hey, we got some more information on the “evolution of Vader” in this thread, being formed from with at least 4 separate characters throughout the various draft scripts, a reminder of the significance on that 2nd draft of Empire Strikes Back, and thanks to G&G-Fan we also have another source with George being on record claiming things that “does not hold up well to scrutiny at all”. Which fits right in with this thread, along with all the other sources highlighting George being an unreliable narrator and revisionist. In this case, literally.

I love this thread!

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Omni said:

Emre, are you trolling? G&G’s point seems crystal clear, are you purposefully misunderstanding?

No, of course I am not trolling. It may have been crystal clear to you, but it was obviously not to me. Nor MBS too. MBS in their post above explains this better than I can.

Marooned Biker Scout said:

I love this thread!

+1.

The Imperial need for control is so desperate because it is so unnatural. Tyranny requires constant effort. It breaks, it leaks. Authority is brittle. Oppression is the mask of fear.

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I think it was a pretty interesting contribution G&G Fan. I’ve never read the original draft of Star Wars to be honest, so it was new information to me that one of the characters Darth Vader was based on was the father of one of the characters Luke Skywalker was based on. It shows that George Lucas clearly wasn’t just pulling him being Luke’s father out of his ass, even if that’s not what the intention was in 1977. With how pervasive the narrative that he just come up with this idea out of nowhere, and it didn’t exist at all to influence his decision-making before the later drafts of The Empire Strikes Back, it’s interesting to see this point of information.

Reading R + L ≠ J theories

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Why does Lucas feel the need to claim it was always one story about the tragedy of Darth Vader, and that was the subtitle when the evidence exists its not true.

Do younger fans take what he says in those audio commentaries at face value and believe him. I’m trying to be charitable, but how isn’t it a lie.

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People repeat things like that so that their story is consistent, to deceive themselves and sound convincing, like someone in court. Then when other people repeat the same misinformation it seems more likely to be true as the story gets passed around. If you’ve heard it more than once it’s more likely to be correct, right? Same old human nature / memory function combo. Just look at how people talk when they argue over the Disney vs the George version of the saga, since he’s the one true creator.

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JadedSkywalker said:

Do younger fans take what he says in those audio commentaries at face value and believe him. I’m trying to be charitable, but how isn’t it a lie.

It is just that. More false claims direct from Lucas’ mouth. Or yet more unreliable narration from him, at best.

Nobody who had actually read the early scripts, or sources like the 2014 comic book, and The Secret History of Star Wars book, could watch that Moviefone video featuring Lucas’ lies and then claim “So Vader was always gonna be Luke’s father” or similar.

In general, some fans have unfortunately always refused to acknowledge the known evidence about early era of Star Wars, and likely find it easier to simply believe, or unquestioningly accept, whatever George or Lucasfilm says at face value, instead. And this was all well before the current “post-truth” world we now find ourselves in.
 

Mocata said:

People repeat things like that so that their story is consistent, to deceive themselves and sound convincing, like someone in court. Then when other people repeat the same misinformation it seems more likely to be true as the story gets passed around. If you’ve heard it more than once it’s more likely to be correct, right? Same old human nature / memory function combo. Just look at how people talk when they argue over the Disney vs the George version of the saga, since he’s the one true creator.

100% this. Rinse and repeat until the misinformation becomes a comfortable “truth”.

 

I have a lot more respect for Spielberg openly admitting he “should not have messed with the archive of my own work” when talking about the change he made to his own films in the past. No lies, rewrites of history, or disproved excuses necessary:
 

Steven Spielberg blasts revising old films for modern audiences, reveals regret about ‘E.T.’’ - at the New York Post:
 

Steven Spielberg has slammed the revision of old films in a bid to make them more appealing to modern audiences.

The legendary director admitted that he regrets editing scenes, specifically one from his hit 1982 film “E.T.” that showed government agents armed with guns.

The scene ultimately didn’t make it into the 2002 re-release of the film and instead had the guns replaced with walkie talkies.

“That was a mistake. That was a mistake,” he said at the Time 100 Summit Tuesday, adding, “I never should have done that because ‘E.T.’ was a product of its era.”

“No film should be revised based on the lenses we now are, either voluntarily or being forced to peer through.”

“‘E.T.’ was a film that I was sensitive to the fact that the federal agents were approaching kids with firearms exposed and I thought I would change the guns into walkie talkies. Years went by and I changed my own views,” the Oscar-winning director added.

Spielberg echoed a similar sentiment in 2011, and this week double down and urged others not to repeat his mistakes.

“I should never have messed with the archive of my own work, and I don’t recommend anybody really do that,” he said.

“All our movies are a kind of measuring – a signpost of where we were when we made them, what the world was like, and what the world was receiving when we got those stories out there. So I really regret having that out there.”

The director was then asked if he believes the same thinking should be applied to other art forms, specifically films adapted from books such as Roald Dahl’s “Charlie & The Chocolate Factory” that had some offensive words taken out for the film’s script.

“Nobody should ever attempt to take the chocolate out of Willy Wonka! Ever! And they shouldn’t take the chocolate or the vanilla, or any other flavor out of anything that has been written,” he said in response.

“For me, it is sacrosanct. It’s our history, it’s our cultural heritage. I do not believe in censorship in that way.”

 

A Hollywood Masterclass with Steven Spielberg | 2023 TIME100 Summit: at the TIME YouTube channel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCB6NTM9ST4&t=188s (at 3 minutes and 8 seconds into the 18 minute video)

 

Spielberg regrets simply even making changes to his ET film later on in life, despite both versions of the film being available in the same high quality format at the time. In contrast to George, who has chosen to actively suppress earlier cuts of his films, and instead go with four further releases featuring continued alterations spanning some 22 years. (1997 to 2019).

Time for a little democracy, to take a leaf out of his friend and and colleague Spielberg’s book, preserve and showcase these films as they originally were, and in the highest possible quality possible. And George can still have his 2919 Special Edition cut as his “official” or “canon” version, or whatever.

“Let go, George. Use the Force!”

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Oh yeah I just posted about that in another thread. Interesting perspective to have huh? Which of course was a non-issue really because I recall buying a DVD years ago had included both editions. Who knows if this will spark some deep hidden feelings in George…

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And technically Spielberg is STILL revising his films on home video. Maybe not to full on Lucas level but the idea that the versions of his movies available right now are fully true to the theatrical versions is false. There’s been recompositing, minor digital tweaks to correct matting and other things, changes in color timing, changes to audio. So if anything he’s not really proving himself to be any better than his buddy George when it comes to preserving his work as is. Yes the changes might be minor in comparison but they’re still changes.

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crissrudd4554 said:

And technically Spielberg is STILL revising his films on home video. Maybe not to full on Lucas level but the idea that the versions of his movies available right now are fully true to the theatrical versions is false. There’s been recompositing, minor digital tweaks to correct matting and other things, changes in color timing, changes to audio. So if anything he’s not really proving himself to be any better than his buddy George when it comes to preserving his work as is. Yes the changes might be minor in comparison but they’re still changes.

Also the ET Special Edition is only available on DVD i saw that in cinema on 35mm it should be available in HD whether one likes the changes or not.

Speaking of Lucas did he always see Star Wars as a silent movie or was that just another way to defend the dialog in the prequel trilogy?

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You only have to see how many different grades Jurassic Park has over the years to see what a mess things are.

As for the silent movie thing, I don’t know why director’s say that kind of thing. Like George Miller wanted a b&W silent edition of Fury Road to match the dailies. Really? In a movie so heavily reliant on music and heavy colour contrast? Try telling Ben Burtt that SW was “always intended” that way.

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JadedSkywalker said:

crissrudd4554 said:

And technically Spielberg is STILL revising his films on home video. Maybe not to full on Lucas level but the idea that the versions of his movies available right now are fully true to the theatrical versions is false. There’s been recompositing, minor digital tweaks to correct matting and other things, changes in color timing, changes to audio. So if anything he’s not really proving himself to be any better than his buddy George when it comes to preserving his work as is. Yes the changes might be minor in comparison but they’re still changes.

Also the ET Special Edition is only available on DVD i saw that in cinema on 35mm it should be available in HD whether one likes the changes or not.

Not to mention the fact that the majority of ET’s deleted scenes haven’t been released in HD either. Most were only released on the Laserdisc with the only HD scenes being clipped in their altered state from the Special Edition for the post 2011 DVD releases.

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Talking of Spielberg and Lucas:
 

A screenshot of Steven Spielberg talking about how George Lucas persuaded him to direct the Indiana Jones films, with George being very economical with the facts of how many stories he’d actually wrote. . . . even to his good friend Spielberg!:

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^ from the Lucasfilm ToD wiki page: https://lucasfilm.fandom.com/wiki/Indiana_Jones_and_the_Temple_of_Doom#Development

 

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Spielberg is also shown talking about the subject 13 seconds into this YouTube video:

The Making of The Temple of Doom | Indiana Jones Behind the Scenes

“Don’t tell anyone… but when ‘Star Wars’ first came out, I didn’t know where it was going either. The trick is to pretend you’ve planned the whole thing out in advance. Throw in some father issues and references to other stories - let’s call them homages - and you’ve got a series.” - George Lucas

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I wonder whether he meant “3 stories in mind” as in “a trilogy in mind”, or whether he really was making stuff up. I can imagine him telling tall tales to inflate his ego, but it seems bizarre to do the same to his own close friend. Then again, he’s said as early as ~1983 that Vader was always meant to be Luke’s father, so who knows?

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One day I hope this whole thread and all the details and sources can be used to make a good article on mainstream site. At this stage the number of odd claims and contradictions are vast.

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Most fans just aren’t very interested in the history of Star Wars, real or fabricated. If they are, they’re probably content with Empire of Dreams or I guess Wookieepedia. I feel like if there was greater interest, his revisionism would be more well-known as well, or at least more people would notice the discrepancies.

At the very least, a decent number of people have seen Vice’s documentary, which does at least cover the real history, if not call out the revisionist claims. Though it’s still a comparatively small percentage of the fanbase, unfortunately.

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Caston posted the following in the New Lucas interview 2: ‘Insists Unaltered Versions Of The OT Will Never Be Released’ thread, talking about George’s comments during the media rounds and interviews at Cannes, but I think it also warrants a place in here.
 

Caston said:

The following abridged screenshot (edited for length) is from Lucasfilm department director Bill Kimberlin’s excellent 2018 book - Inside The Star Wars Empire, from ‘The Distraction’ chapter, starting on Page 194.

It covers George Lucas refusing the option to have a duplicate negative of the original cuts to be made. Something that “could be easily done”. Instead George simply said “This is the original version” (meaning the 1997 SE cut was now “the original version”):
 

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So when George used to tell everyone all the many excuses in the past as to why he couldn’t preserve or restore the original cuts, it was all rubbish. For someone who even today goes on record about the importance of preserving film history, George actively suppressed the preservation and archiving of his own film, as well as the films of other directors in the Original Trilogy.
 

Lucas is also on record as specifically wanting the original cuts of the OT films to no longer exist:

George Lucas: “There will only be one. And it won’t be what I would call the ‘rough cut’, it’ll be the 'final cut.’

^ a screenshot from “How the Grinch Stole Star Wars” - an article from the Save Star Wars website.

(from Category No. 17 of the George Lucas: Star Wars Creator, Unreliable Narrator & Time Travelling Revisionist… thread)

 
 

The entire “Inside The Star Wars Empire” book is a really good enjoyable read and would recommend anyone to go and buy it.

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“Don’t tell anyone… but when ‘Star Wars’ first came out, I didn’t know where it was going either. The trick is to pretend you’ve planned the whole thing out in advance. Throw in some father issues and references to other stories - let’s call them homages - and you’ve got a series.” - George Lucas

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Mocata said:

One day I hope this whole thread and all the details and sources can be used to make a good article on mainstream site. At this stage the number of odd claims and contradictions are vast.

Gandalf the Cyan said:

Most fans just aren’t very interested in the history of Star Wars, real or fabricated. If they are, they’re probably content with Empire of Dreams or I guess Wookieepedia. I feel like if there was greater interest, his revisionism would be more well-known as well, or at least more people would notice the discrepancies.

At the very least, a decent number of people have seen Vice’s documentary, which does at least cover the real history, if not call out the revisionist claims. Though it’s still a comparatively small percentage of the fanbase, unfortunately.

It would be fascinating to see it all laid out in an article, or even a YouTube video or podcast? Although I reckon it would get “brigaded” pretty quickly by the George/Prequel fanboys. The slightest whiff of criticism against George often triggers the zealots into action, and any established platform writer or YouTube creator probably knows that, so is likely put off by the prospect of that happening. But it would be great to be proven wrong on this, and actually see it done.

Or maybe even something like an updated “The People vs George Lucas”, or a straight-up doc on the preservation side of the OT? That kind of thing?

“Don’t tell anyone… but when ‘Star Wars’ first came out, I didn’t know where it was going either. The trick is to pretend you’ve planned the whole thing out in advance. Throw in some father issues and references to other stories - let’s call them homages - and you’ve got a series.” - George Lucas

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Sideburns of BoShek said:

Caston posted the following in the New Lucas interview 2: ‘Insists Unaltered Versions Of The OT Will Never Be Released’ thread, talking about George’s comments during the media rounds and interviews at Cannes, but I think it also warrants a place in here.
 

Caston said:

The following abridged screenshot (edited for length) is from Lucasfilm department director Bill Kimberlin’s excellent 2018 book - Inside The Star Wars Empire, from ‘The Distraction’ chapter, starting on Page 194.

It covers George Lucas refusing the option to have a duplicate negative of the original cuts to be made. Something that “could be easily done”. Instead George simply said “This is the original version” (meaning the 1997 SE cut was now “the original version”):
 

img

 
So when George used to tell everyone all the many excuses in the past as to why he couldn’t preserve or restore the original cuts, it was all rubbish. For someone who even today goes on record about the importance of preserving film history, George actively suppressed the preservation and archiving of his own film, as well as the films of other directors in the Original Trilogy.
 

Lucas is also on record as specifically wanting the original cuts of the OT films to no longer exist:

George Lucas: “There will only be one. And it won’t be what I would call the ‘rough cut’, it’ll be the 'final cut.’

^ a screenshot from “How the Grinch Stole Star Wars” - an article from the Save Star Wars website.

(from Category No. 17 of the George Lucas: Star Wars Creator, Unreliable Narrator & Time Travelling Revisionist… thread)

 
 

The entire “Inside The Star Wars Empire” book is a really good enjoyable read and would recommend anyone to go and buy it.

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^ This section in Caston’s post from Bill Kimberlin’s book is particularly damning:

When I first saw that posted on here I was speechless, but not sadly that surprised.

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Lexa C said:

Sideburns of BoShek said:

Caston posted the following in the New Lucas interview 2: ‘Insists Unaltered Versions Of The OT Will Never Be Released’ thread, talking about George’s comments during the media rounds and interviews at Cannes, but I think it also warrants a place in here.
 

Caston said:

The following abridged screenshot (edited for length) is from Lucasfilm department director Bill Kimberlin’s excellent 2018 book - Inside The Star Wars Empire, from ‘The Distraction’ chapter, starting on Page 194.

It covers George Lucas refusing the option to have a duplicate negative of the original cuts to be made. Something that “could be easily done”. Instead George simply said “This is the original version” (meaning the 1997 SE cut was now “the original version”):
 

img

 
So when George used to tell everyone all the many excuses in the past as to why he couldn’t preserve or restore the original cuts, it was all rubbish. For someone who even today goes on record about the importance of preserving film history, George actively suppressed the preservation and archiving of his own film, as well as the films of other directors in the Original Trilogy.
 

Lucas is also on record as specifically wanting the original cuts of the OT films to no longer exist:

George Lucas: “There will only be one. And it won’t be what I would call the ‘rough cut’, it’ll be the 'final cut.’

^ a screenshot from “How the Grinch Stole Star Wars” - an article from the Save Star Wars website.

(from Category No. 17 of the George Lucas: Star Wars Creator, Unreliable Narrator & Time Travelling Revisionist… thread)

 
 

The entire “Inside The Star Wars Empire” book is a really good enjoyable read and would recommend anyone to go and buy it.

img

^ This section in Caston’s post from Bill Kimberlin’s book is particularly damning:

When I first saw that posted on here I was speechless, but not sadly that surprised.

The truth always comes out in the end. Unfortunately far too late, and the lies & other bullshit will probably still be accepted or remembered by many as “fact”. Next George will be trying to claim the original cuts always looked like laserdisc quality or something else as ludicrous! 😉

“Don’t tell anyone… but when ‘Star Wars’ first came out, I didn’t know where it was going either. The trick is to pretend you’ve planned the whole thing out in advance. Throw in some father issues and references to other stories - let’s call them homages - and you’ve got a series.” - George Lucas