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General Star Wars Random Thoughts Thread — Page 463

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jedi_bendu said:

Stardust1138 said:

The Sequels and Disney era are more openly political and coming from someone who doesn’t really get into politics I find it to be sometimes off putting.

I actually think that Disney era star wars stories in general are really far less political than what’s come before and relevant political undertones are really lacking. The prequels and TCW are the most political imo. What do you find political about, for example, the sequels?

I think in terms of story and relevance the Prequels and The Clone Wars are definitely the most political. They’re more self contained to the stories being told and you can draw lines with them to their relevance in day to day to life. Their importance in story always comes first though.

With the Sequels and Disney era it’s more the undertones and modern story techniques of making them topical versus telling the story around said politics. Like L3 representing identity politics and Lando being pansexual. These are both very real issues that are obviously trying to connect to a real world issue. There’s more of a new wave feminism approach to certain characters like Holdo versus more lead by example feminism approach of Padme and Leia in the original six films.

These things are definitely important and I think are needed. They have a place in media in general but there’s a thin line you must make when creating stories. I find with Star Wars it’s usually been used for escapism and being treated as timeless with politics serving the narrative, not the narrative serving the topical ideals of the time. Although certain things naturally carried over as we have an issue as humans to make the same mistakes over and over.

The best examples I can think of are fitting in the kiss at the end of The Rise of Skywalker. It’s there to appeal to a group versus having meaning within the narrative as there’s no build up. It’s the opposite of Leia taking charge and not letting the boys boss her around in the original film when they rescue her on the Death Star as it’s established right away with Darth Vader then a bit later with Tarkin she can hold her own.

With George Lucas Star Wars it was always what you did with your political power that defines you as shown in The Heroes in Both Sides arc in The Clone Wars. Courtesy to popular belief I also don’t think the Rebel Alliance and Empire were as black and white as some make them out to be.

With Disney Star Wars it’s segregated between Resistance good, First Order bad. Finn’s background and DJ really challenging the notion they could be anything more than that went nowhere. The only time I can think of that I feel the political message mostly works is with the fathiers as they serve the narrative.

None of these things I find in what Disney are doing are bad things. They just need to serve the story and fit the narrative. Story should always come before agenda and how you portray it when you do.

It reminds me of a relevant quote from Andrei Tarkovsky when he described his film, The Sacrifice:

“The film highlights that if we don’t want to live like parasites on the body of society, nurtured by the fruits of democracy, that if we don’t want to become conformists and idiotic consumers then we have to dispense with a lot. And we have to start with ourselves. We’re quick to blame others, the society, our friends, but not ourselves. On the contrary, we like to indoctrinate others, give speeches on how to behave, want to be prophets, but have no right thereto, because we attend least to ourselves and don’t follow our own advices. It’s a dramatic misunderstanding if one person says: “That’s a good person.” Because what’s that today, a good person? Only if one is willing to sacrifice oneself, one can claim to influence the general process of life; there’s no other way. The prize is to pay is our material wealth. One has to live as one talks, so that the principles are not just idle talk and demagoguery, but turn into reality.”

"Pleasure’s fun. It’s great, but you can’t keep it going forever; just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone, and maybe then again, it will come back, and you’ll get to do it again. Joy lasts forever. Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure: it’s about you. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion, that is created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving yourself to somebody else, or something else. And it’s a kind of thing that is, in its subtlety and lowness, much more powerful than pleasure. You get hung up on pleasure; you’re doomed. If you pursue joy; you will find everlasting happiness.” - George Lucas

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My biggest issue with the Disney era Star Wars is how we as viewers are constantly being hit over the head about how they must stand against the bad guys, it comes off as preachy, patronizing and a bit sanctimonious, though I would argue TCW set the trend through its depiction of Padmé. Thankfully The Mandalorian has largely avoided this and sure, they come into conflict with what’s left of the Empire, but there’s no preachy speeches which have become so commonplace during the Disney era.

Look at the OT. The Empire is evil and must be fought, but at no point do we have preachy lectures.

I’m sorry but I find such overt preachiness to be a real turn-off and they make me feel like I’m being talked down to.

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Stardust1138 said:

Johann-500 said:

Stardust1138 said:

Respecting creators including George should always take precedence to your beliefs.

Woah!
A civil respect, or a general respect? For sure.
Acknowledging their efforts, achievements and the content you enjoy, love or that resonates? Of course.

Yet the truth (or facts) should come first. Before the ‘precedence’ turns into blind respect, which then turns into idol worship. Where facts and the truth are then ignored because of that idol worship. Something that a great number of Star Wars fans have ignored when putting George up on a pedestal is the actual history of Star Wars, and also ignoring George’s attempts to both retcon, change and suppress parts of the history.

Stardust1138 said:

He may not of had every detail planned out but he had a broader sense of things to create story points for later. Mark Hamill spoke in the 80’s how George planned to end things on another plane of existence. This sure feels like someone who had an idea of where they wanted to go. Maybe not every detail as even he said he didn’t have but enough to know the broader strokes to create new storylines.

This was talked about only recently by you and another member on here? Where Lucas is quoted it was only had a vague “notion” and that “It wouldn’t be part of the main story, but a sequel to this thing” (Luke’s own personal story).

So it was not much other than a vague idea for a future story for Luke, and not for Lucas’s Sequel Trilogy. So the claim of Lucas having these “broad strokes”, “broader sense of things”, or “plans” for the Sequel Trilogy does not apply here.

In the end unfortunately many rejected him as they didn’t feel these concepts connecting Midi-Chlorians and the Force fit into Star Wars, when in reality they have always been there and align even with things Joseph Campbell talked about. Star Wars was always building to something bigger. It becomes even clearer the more you watch his six films.

It is important to remember that Midichlorians have not always been there in Star Wars. Despite Lucas trying to change history and insert his retconned quote to pass off ideas that came to him only later when writing the Prequels.

Has anyone found a mention of Midichlorians before Lucas’ writing for the TPM? If the term Midichlorians always existed in Star Wars it would not be difficult to prove for Lucas himself or Lucasfilm, but we have no evidence. Nothing other than Lucas’ famous retconned quote in a failed attempt to try and provide that evidence.

I hope you do not take my post as aggressive or an attack on you Stardust1138. You have a beautiful way with words and I enjoy reading your posts. But I feel I must highlight where I disagree, where the facts or evidence of the history does not add up (such as passing off Lucas’ vague idea for a possible future Luke story as his ideas for the Sequel Trilogy, with even Lucas himself saying this idea was not a part of the main story).

To quote Lucas in 1997: “[The whole story has] six episodes…If I ever went beyond that, it would be something that was made up".

You can respect but not always agree with someone. It’s common courtesy I find. There’s no need to insult someone or call anyone names or accuse them of x and y when we’re just as guilty of doing the very same things in our own lives in different ways. No one is perfect. We’re all flawed and make mistakes. George has his fair share but has every right to do what he feels is best as it’s his story at the end of the day. He’s always been one to change his mind. All creative people are like that. I’m a creative person. I never stick to the same ideas from one moment to the next. I always want to make my story better. I don’t see anything wrong with that. Especially as it’s my vision. Just as Star Wars was/is George’s vision. He can do whatever he pleases with it. It may belong to all of us but it’s also ultimately because of him we have it to begin with. Creators don’t have a responsibility to please or to give us what we want. Their job is to make something personal to them. Hopefully it’s morally responsible and helps us in some way but that’s a whole different topic. I’d say though George did that and then some.

I agree, but these are a societal given, or should be. The original response in reply to your post of “Respecting creators including George should always take precedence to your beliefs”, Again yes, respect at all times for sure, but that truth and facts come above individual beliefs, and such respect for creators should not prevent questions being asked, or the search for truth and facts.

No, not all creative people are like this. Please, no. I am an artist for my living. If I change my viewpoint or vision, I acknowledge it, I do not lie, retcon it, or pass off my new ideas as being old and thought of long ago, to justify a later ‘change of mind’. If I ever did this I would expect and deserve much criticism and derision to come my way for doing such a thing. Being a creative person is not an excuse, reason or a justification for these actions.

When I subcontract work out to others I do not make copies, make changes to it myself years later, and suppress the original work. The films are NOT George’s to do with as he pleases, and George himself acknowledges this when he says only a film director should be able to change a film.

Lucas also gave assurances to Kershner that Empire would be Kershner’s film, completely. Despite this, George has since altered the work and vision of two other creatives, the directors of Empire and Jedi. Lucas’ words about the director being the only person who should be able change the film came after him already having made alterations to the vision of Kershner and Marquand, and then still made further changes to the films for various releases.

What of Kershner and Marquand’s original films, their vision? Their original work is not available to see and experience, and have not been so for many years (except on old low quality vhs, laser disc etc etc).

It is also important to not forget the award winning and pioneering work done by creative and talented people who contributed to the films and that their work has been suppressed also. Work that was in public view for 20 years. But no longer.

For more information I recommend the George Lucas: Unreliable Narrator thread. Much of which I have wrote in here is from there. It highlights much of the factual history of the Original Trilogy, many of it from on this forum over a very long time. And also features Lucas’ lies, retcons, the shortfalls in his visions, and his attempts to change history. Though Jason and others in the topic are too polite to call Lucas a liar, or worse.

In there it also states Lucas himself is on the board of film preservation companies, helping to preserve films and explaining why it is important to do this and also showcase films and their history. But not his own film and the two other parts of the Trilogy.

Other creatives and directors in film make multiple versions of their work, their visions, available to all. To give the audience the choice to experience whichever version they choose to. Or to celebrate and discuss all of the versions. They do not lie, retcon, deceive or “change their mind” and deny fans the world over a version of important films that was available for 20 years. You state “Creators don’t have a responsibility to please or to give us what we want”, but it is more accurate to say it is not Lucas’ right or responsibility to take these away after 20 years of being available to us. Or to alter or take away the work of other creatives.

It’s not to say Midi-Chlorians have been there from the beginning but there’s plenty to say they don’t contradict things in the Original Trilogy. They were only three films part of a six or nine film saga he planned. Midi-Chlorians enhance things we learn in the Original Trilogy or vise versa if you decide to watch the films in the order George intended us to watch them. Things don’t seem like an accident. They just happen. Like Anakin building C-3PO. It’s not a coincidence but merely part of the story.

You state “Midi-Chlorians and the Force fit into Star Wars, when in reality they have always been there”. I merely pointed out the fact that they (Midichlorians) have not always been a part of Star Wars.

“It’s not to say Midichlorians have been there from the beginning”, when you now say this I am pleased you acknowledge such a fact.

I honestly look forward to reading more of your thoughtful and eloquent posts, personal views and beliefs.
 

I would debate that that Midichlorians do not enhance the Original Trilogy, and that C3PO being built by Anakin does not enhance the Prequels either, but these are indeed welcome personal opinions and points of view, not facts as discussed above. And I think are better suited for another time, though I do await to read more of your insights, and from many other interesting people on here.

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I was just thinking about the size of the Clone Army in AOTC, and realized that we have all the information required for some quick calculations.

In the film, 200,000 clones are ready to be deployed.

Soon after, 1,000,000 clones will join them.

In the crawl, it is established that several thousand planets have declared their intentions to leave the Republic. Taking this at its dictionary definition of more than two, let’s say conservatively that this is 3,000 planets.

If the Republic wages a war on these 3,000 fronts simultaneously, at the outset of the war it can send only 66.6 clones to each planet. At the height of the war, it will only be able to send 400 to each planet.

To put this in perspective, China’s military boasts 2,800,000 soldiers.

Conclusion: China has a stronger military than the entire Galactic Republic at its height.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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With the Obi-wan Kenobi and Ahsoka solo series on the horizon and rumours of an Old Republic movie and Thrawn trilogy adaptation (of sorts) flying around, I’m slightly worried by the implication that Lucasfilm’s planning of future projects is being dictated by what they think the majority of fans want to see, as I love being surprised with new and unexpected ideas. Things I didn’t know I needed, like SW Rebels and the High Republic. I’m sure these will all be very good though.

“Remember, the Force will be with you. Always.”

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jedi_bendu said:

With the Obi-wan Kenobi and Ahsoka solo series on the horizon and rumours of an Old Republic movie and Thrawn trilogy adaptation (of sorts) flying around, I’m slightly worried by the implication that Lucasfilm’s planning of future projects is being dictated by what they think the majority of fans want to see, as I love being surprised with new and unexpected ideas. Things I didn’t know I needed, like SW Rebels and the High Republic. I’m sure these will all be very good though.

Well, that’s where Star Wars is, currently. They don’t seem to have a clear direction in which they want the story to go, so they’re playing it by ear and seeing what fans best respond to.

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Just noticed that Luke echoes a line from Leia when he tells Rey, “You have everything you need.”

Well done. I will disengage self-destruct initiative.

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There’s been a turkey carving. Have you felt it? The dark meat… and the light.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Well done. I will disengage self-destruct initiative.

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So I had this thought back when Mando Season 2 aired but never discussed it. With Book of Boba Fett coming soon I’ve been thinking about it more:

Bo Katan makes a point that totally works as a retcon that has actually helped me accept the prequel version of Boba Fett as “canon” (for what that’s worth) and allows me to continue enjoying the OOT as the only version of the original trilogy, even as it tied in to the prequels and all the Disney content.

Basically, Bo Katan immediately recognizes Fett as a clone the second she hears his voice. It’s logical to assume MANY people would recognize the clone voice (even if it doesn’t really make sense that they would all have the same accent). It makes absolute sense that he would disguise his voice (and keep his face hidden) during Imperial times, especially around someone as prominent as Vader, for a multitude of reasons.

And it also makes reasonable sense that he would drop the secrecy by the time of Mando with the Empire having fallen.

Anyway, all that’s to say the version of Fett in the OOT (with the original Jason Wingreen voice) works perfectly fine (if not better, honestly) with the overall story of Fett as presented in current official media. It’s a small thing, but one I greatly appreciate. And I kinda suspect it’s intentional on some level.

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One thing that’s interesting to me in JW Rinzler’s Howard Kazanjian biography is that allegedly one reason David Lynch turned down doing ROTJ was that he didn’t want to make a film that would be scored with John Williams’ music. I know Lynch generally prefers unsettling audio tracks rather than orchestral music pieces in his own work, but it’s still frankly startling (and certainly ballsy) for a a director to say they wouldn’t want a John Williams score if they directed a Star Wars movie.

I wonder how he felt about Toto’s work on DUNE. Was that something Dino De Laurentiis insisted on, perhaps?

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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ATMachine said:

One thing that’s interesting to me in JW Rinzler’s Howard Kazanjian biography is that allegedly one reason David Lynch turned down doing ROTJ was that he didn’t want to make a film that would be scored with John Williams’ music. I know Lynch generally prefers unsettling audio tracks rather than orchestral music pieces in his own work, but it’s still frankly startling (and certainly ballsy) for a a director to say they wouldn’t want a John Williams score if they directed a Star Wars movie.

I wonder how he felt about Toto’s work on DUNE. Was that something Dino De Laurentiis insisted on, perhaps?

From what I’ve understood Lynch simply didn’t like the idea of making a film according to someone else’s ideas, i.e. being restricted by Lucas’ story ideas. The music might have been a part of this concern, but I think Lynch simply didn’t care for SW.

Lynch talks about his meeting with Lucas in this 3 min. video;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJQ4vCu-S0U&t

As for the Toto music in Dune, I’ve been wondering about this as well, but I suspect the Brian Eno music was more in line with Lynch’s wishes and that Toto was De Laurentiis’ idea, though I still get the impression that there was a direct collaboration none-the-less. It’s hard to tel with Dune because it’s not like Lynch was kicked off the project but rather that he was contractually strong-armed into making multiple changes to the film against his original vision. So ironically he ended up in a similar position to hat he’d have to endure if he’d said yes to direct ROTJ.

Original Trilogy Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Beyond the OT Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Star Wars is Surrealism, not Science Fiction (essay)
Amazon link to my first novel; Dawn of the Karabu.

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They still haven’t gotten a Dune movie right in my opinion. There’s action in it, but I think of it more as a drama. I thought Villeneuve split the book into two movies so he could include more dramatic scenes from the book, but he didn’t really. It’s a gorgeous movie and I love the soundtrack, but I expected more. I think Star Wars still has influence over what people think a “space movie” should be like.