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General Star Wars Random Thoughts Thread — Page 461

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Stardust1138 said:

My apologies! I only just now caught that you said original Tron. There’s also a Blade Runner spinner in The Phantom Menace after the original Blade Runner used the Falcon as a building design. It’s pretty cool discovering inspirations, easter eggs, and references.

^ No worries . And it is cool finding that kind of stuff , like E.T. in The Phantom Menace , The droids and club Obi Wan in Raiders Of The Lost Ark and Temple Of Doom , The Ark on the walls of Jabba’s barge etc .

https://screamsinthevoid.deviantart.com/

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SilverWook said:

An interesting story I’ve not heard before about George Lucas helping out with the first installment of another long running movie franchise.

https://marketresearchtelecast.com/did-you-know-that-george-lucas-saved-the-first-mission-impossible-movie/97973/

It’s really cool how they both helped each other with their films. I really admire how their film circle had healthy competition but always helped one another.

Speaking of Brian De Palma, he opened up about the infamous first viewing of Star Wars from his prospective.

https://collider.com/star-wars-screening-brian-de-palma-george-lucas-the-force/

"Pleasure’s fun. It’s great, but you can’t keep it going forever; just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone, and maybe then again, it will come back, and you’ll get to do it again. Joy lasts forever. Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure: it’s about you. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion, that is created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving yourself to somebody else, or something else. And it’s a kind of thing that is, in its subtlety and lowness, much more powerful than pleasure. You get hung up on pleasure; you’re doomed. If you pursue joy; you will find everlasting happiness.” - George Lucas

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Marcia Lucas gives her honest thoughts on The Phantom Menace and the Sequels.

"Pleasure’s fun. It’s great, but you can’t keep it going forever; just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone, and maybe then again, it will come back, and you’ll get to do it again. Joy lasts forever. Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure: it’s about you. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion, that is created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving yourself to somebody else, or something else. And it’s a kind of thing that is, in its subtlety and lowness, much more powerful than pleasure. You get hung up on pleasure; you’re doomed. If you pursue joy; you will find everlasting happiness.” - George Lucas

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I agree on everything she said. Too bad she isn’t in charge of LFL.

And in the time of greatest despair, there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as the Son of the Suns.

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I would love to hear Marcia Lucas give an in-depth critique of the PT and ST. I’m sure she’s not exactly eager to rewatch those films, but it’d be fascinating to hear her give a detailed discussion on what didn’t work about them compared to the OT.

I can only imagine how different the franchise would be today if she had continued to be involved in the creative process of the films. I’d love a glimpse of that timeline.

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I think she sounds bitter and spiteful more than anything else. Like the guy who played Boba Fett for the Jabba scene in ANH whining about the name of Fett’s ship. OK, maybe not that bad…

Still, I find her critiques paper-thin more than anything else.

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BedeHistory731 said:

I think she sounds bitter and spiteful more than anything else. Like the guy who played Boba Fett for the Jabba scene in ANH whining about the name of Fett’s ship. OK, maybe not that bad…

Still, I find her critiques paper-thin more than anything else.

Those are pretty much the same critiques anyone has had if they have had any. There are always people who take critique as bitterness if they can make a possible reason why whatever the subject would be. I can’t see how the fundamental flaws of the films are paper-thin.

And in the time of greatest despair, there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as the Son of the Suns.

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LexX said:

BedeHistory731 said:

I think she sounds bitter and spiteful more than anything else. Like the guy who played Boba Fett for the Jabba scene in ANH whining about the name of Fett’s ship. OK, maybe not that bad…

Still, I find her critiques paper-thin more than anything else.

Those are pretty much the same critiques anyone has had if they have had any.

Yeah, whining about killing the OT characters and trying to argue that Rey is a bad character. That’s a bit more shallow than some of the more substantial critiques. Surely she knew that Harrison would only do the movie if Han died. Luke’s sacrifice was handled beautifully in the movie. No “magic is gone” because the OT characters died.

There are always people who take critique as bitterness if they can make a possible reason why whatever the subject would be. I can’t see how the fundamental flaws of the films are paper-thin.

Killing the OT characters was not a fundamental flaw. Not explaining everything about Rey is not a fundamental flaw. She came very close to dropping the “Mary Sue” dog whistle.

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How is it not a flaw to fail to explain how a new protagonist far supersede both of the previous saga main characters for two movies, then retconning it to some vague super-inheritance in the third film? And as for killing off the OT characters, even Mark Hamill has expressed disappointment in Lucasfilm failing to bring back the old cast as so many fans were hoping for. Yes, Ford has an odd relationship with SW, Fisher’s passing was obviously out of everyone’s control, but killing off Luke was to many a step too far. And Lando’s “mandatory” appearance in TROS didn’t really serve much of a story purpose. What annoys me is that I think the new trilogy could have been saved with just one minor adjustment to TLJ. If Luke hadn’t been killed off and Rey had received some actual mentoring in the third film, then I think the whole thing could have come to a much more satisfying conclusion. I still would have had some complaints, sure, but it would have felt more consistent and like a proper “passing of the torch” story. It would have given Luke more of a complete arc and a position in the saga worthy of what was set up previously and how he is perceived by the fandom, and it could also have helped give some much needed limitations to Rey’s abilities (which TLJ did kind of touch on), while still allowing for her grand powers in the third film. And hopefully this would have resulted in a third film that gave Finn and Poe more to do.

I personally can forgive TFA for it’s unoriginality due it having the massive task of having to bring back fans after the PT, and I can appreciate the depth and nuance that Johnson attempted to add to Luke (though I’m still torn on whether it should have been done or not), but in the end I think the lack of an organic ending made the whole trilogy crash and burn. With Luke as a strong link to the OT and ideas more akin to Trevorrow’s planned finale I think the ST could have been quite good, if not a fair bit derivative.

Original Trilogy Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Beyond the OT Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Star Wars is Surrealism, not Science Fiction (essay)
Amazon link to my first novel; Dawn of the Karabu.

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ZkinandBonez said:

How is it not a flaw to fail to explain how a new protagonist far supersede both of the previous saga main characters for two movies, then retconning it to some vague super-inheritance in the third film?

But is she really all that more powerful than Anakin or Luke? Do we really need to see a training arc beyond what was in TLJ and the opening of TROS (she’s been training with Leia and on her own during the time skip)? The character still struggles and has the whole “found family” arc, so it’s not like she’s a god-mode Mary Sue (e.g., Starkiller from The Force Unleashed).

And as for killing off the OT characters, even Mark Hamill has expressed disappointment in Lucasfilm failing to bring back the old cast as so many fans were hoping for. Yes, Ford has an odd relationship with SW, Fisher’s passing was obviously out of everyone’s control, but killing off Luke was to many a step too far. And Lando’s “mandatory” appearance in TROS didn’t really serve much of a story purpose.

I get the issue around it, but I really don’t think it was an issue because the sacrifice was handled so well in the movie. I know an OT reunion scene would’ve been welcome, but I think the story is fine without it.

What annoys me is that I think the new trilogy could have been saved with just one minor adjustment to TLJ. If Luke hadn’t been killed off and Rey had received some actual mentoring in the third film, then I think the whole thing could have come to a much more satisfying conclusion.

I really don’t think that. Rey gets enough mentoring in the movie and it serves the story well.

I still would have had some complaints, sure, but it would have felt more consistent and like a proper “passing of the torch” story. It would have given Luke more of a complete arc and a position in the saga worthy of what was set up previously and how he is perceived by the fandom, and it could also have helped give some much needed limitations to Rey’s abilities (which TLJ did kind of touch on), while still allowing for her grand powers in the third film. And hopefully this would have resulted in a third film that gave Finn and Poe more to do.

I’d say that TLJ did all of that. That was the worthy ending that fit with the Luke of the OT.

I personally can forgive TFA for it’s unoriginality due it having the massive task of having to bring back fans after the PT, and I can appreciate the depth and nuance that Johnson attempted to add to Luke (though I’m still torn on whether it should have been done or not), but in the end I think the lack of an organic ending made the whole trilogy crash and burn. With Luke as a strong link to the OT and ideas more akin to Trevorrow’s planned finale I think the ST could have been quite good, if not a fair bit derivative.

I’m not all that keen on TROS, but it still feels like a decent and fairly organic ending to me. Rey has her found family and much like Luke in ROTJ, there’s room to speculate on her next move. Heck, the claiming of the name with ghostly approval works well as a torch pass to me.

Granted, I’d have set the ST 100 years after ROTJ with only Chewy, R2, 3PO, and ghost Luke returning. All the themes could be explored without causing unexpected disturbances with OT fans.

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BedeHistory731 said:

ZkinandBonez said:

How is it not a flaw to fail to explain how a new protagonist far supersede both of the previous saga main characters for two movies, then retconning it to some vague super-inheritance in the third film?

But is she really all that more powerful than Anakin or Luke? Do we really need to see a training arc beyond what was in TLJ and the opening of TROS (she’s been training with Leia and on her own during the time skip)? The character still struggles and has the whole “found family” arc, so it’s not like she’s a god-mode Mary Sue (e.g., Starkiller from The Force Unleashed).

Is she more powerful and Anakin and Luke? Yes, by a wide margin. Anakin had good reflexes before training, and Luke didn’t really do all that much (power wise). Rey did a mind trick out of the blue and lifted a dozen giant boulders after a just a few vague lessons by Luke. Among other things.

Now I’m not saying she’s “God mode” or anything, but I find her growth unnatural. Even after reading some Jedi texts and getting some training by Leia, who was only partially trained herself, feels cheap to me. I do however think TROS is the biggest sinner in this regard. And this includes them failing to give Rey a proper conclusion to her set up arc as well. I don’t love what the first two films did, but I appreaciate the general idea they were going with.

And I wish people would stop using Starkiller as an example. He’s a video game character and he was criticized by many for being overpowered since the beginning.

BedeHistory731 said:

ZkinandBonez said:

And as for killing off the OT characters, even Mark Hamill has expressed disappointment in Lucasfilm failing to bring back the old cast as so many fans were hoping for. Yes, Ford has an odd relationship with SW, Fisher’s passing was obviously out of everyone’s control, but killing off Luke was to many a step too far. And Lando’s “mandatory” appearance in TROS didn’t really serve much of a story purpose.

I get the issue around it, but I really don’t think it was an issue because the sacrifice was handled so well in the movie. I know an OT reunion scene would’ve been welcome, but I think the story is fine without it.

Fine, yes. But I do think filmmakers do owe the fans certain things, especially the ST was as rooted in blatant nostalgia as it was. X-Wings and TIE fighter are superficial details, its characters that count.

And I genuinely think Luke could have had his little redemption arc in TLJ and still lived to serve as the mentor to Rey in TROS. He was not supposed to be the new Ben Kenobi but the root of a new better Jedi order. I have no issues wuth Rey playing a big role in this, just like Lucas planned, but TROS felt like shallow reset button for the franchise, especially since TFA did a similar thing.

What bugs me is how much potential this trilogy and Rey had, but there were so many out of sync ideas tvrown about by different creatives. Even with Luke dead in TLJ, TROS has the potential to be quite good, as the Trevorrow stiry treatment suggest. Though I still think they should have reigned in Johnson a bit regarding the ending of TLJ.

BedeHistory731 said:

ZkinandBonez said:

I personally can forgive TFA for it’s unoriginality due it having the massive task of having to bring back fans after the PT, and I can appreciate the depth and nuance that Johnson attempted to add to Luke (though I’m still torn on whether it should have been done or not), but in the end I think the lack of an made the whole trilogy crash and burn. With Luke as a strong link to the OT and ideas more akin to Trevorrow’s planned finale I think the ST could have been quite good, if not a fair bit derivative.

I’m not all that keen on TROS, but it still feels like a decent and fairly organic ending to me. Rey has her found family and much like Luke in ROTJ, there’s room to speculate on her next move. Heck, the claiming of the name with ghostly approval works well as a torch pass to me.

Granted, I’d have set the ST 100 years after ROTJ with only Chewy, R2, 3PO, and ghost Luke returning. All the themes could be explored without causing unexpected disturbances with OT fans.

Maybe they could do something like that for ep. 10-12. The ST was always supposed to bring back Luke, even in Lucas’ story ideas, which is why I think so many fans were disappointed. And I think it’s fear to point out that most critics of the ST were just annoyed or disappointed, and they are generally not the rantic lunatics frothing at the mouth that you’d think from the way you read about this debate in online pop-culture “journalism”.

I do think a 100 years later sequel-sequel trilogy could be quite interesting though. With the TV serues6taking chances and films like Dune doing something different we can always hope that the new trilogy, if they make it, will take some chances.

Original Trilogy Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Beyond the OT Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Star Wars is Surrealism, not Science Fiction (essay)
Amazon link to my first novel; Dawn of the Karabu.

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BedeHistory731 said:

I think she sounds bitter and spiteful more than anything else. Like the guy who played Boba Fett for the Jabba scene in ANH whining about the name of Fett’s ship. OK, maybe not that bad…

Still, I find her critiques paper-thin more than anything else.

To be fair, she probably only watched the movies once, when they first released. And she may not have even watched TRoS. So she’s not really in a position to go into further detail on them, and that’s not what she wanted to focus on here, anyway.

She came very close to dropping the “Mary Sue” dog whistle.

Also, “Mary Sue” is not a dogwhistle. There are plenty of well known male Mary Sues/Gary Stus in fiction. I’m not sure what you’re implying about Marcia Lucas with that. I know people who avoid using the term because they don’t want to be accused of being some sort of reactionary, but it’s a valid term in character criticism.

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Servii said:

Also, “Mary Sue” is not a dogwhistle. There are plenty of well known male Mary Sues/Gary Stus in fiction. I’m not sure what you’re implying about Marcia Lucas with that. I know people who avoid using the term because they don’t want to be accused of being some sort of reactionary, but it’s a valid term in character criticism.

I agree that it’s valid, but it’s been used so often by the reactionary sort that it has kind of lost a lot of its original meaning and has become a dogwhistle for some (akin to “ethics in video game journalism”). It sucks that such a useful term has been ruined, but that’s the impact of the culture war on pop culture discussion.

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Since Rey’s godlike mastery of the Force is being discussed, I want to say that if there’s one thing that bothered me most about the PT, it’s how everyone goes on about how strong Anakin is with the Force, but we never see him do anything noteworthy in AotC and RotS other than basic stuff like telekinetically moving stuff around or boosting his jumps. Now I’m not saying he should have breezed through waves of enemies Force Unleashed style, it’s just that I would consider this a case of “Show, don’t tell”.

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fmalover said:

Since Rey’s godlike mastery of the Force is being discussed, I want to say that if there’s one thing that bothered me most about the PT, it’s how everyone goes on about how strong Anakin is with the Force, but we never see him do anything noteworthy in AotC and RotS other than basic stuff like telekinetically moving stuff around or boosting his jumps. Now I’m not saying he should have breezed through waves of enemies Force Unleashed style, it’s just that I would consider this a case of “Show, don’t tell”.

Heck, something like enhanced precognition, complete sensory awareness, or even some large telekinetic feat (e.g., ripping ships apart) would’ve sold both his status as a “chosen one” and how much becoming Vader diminished him. I don’t know if 2002/2005 CGI and physical modeling could do that convincingly, but it would’ve sold it more.

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Keep in mind that to Lucas the light side of the Force isn’t mean to manifest itself in flashy and extraordinary feats, though yes, some showing rather than telling would have been nice. Of course Anakin’s near-prescient reflexes made him the only human pod-racer, and Anakin jumping off the speeder at the start of AOTC is certainly far more elaborate than anything they even could have attempted to show in the OT. The PT did in so many ways create the CG tech we now take for granted that, yes, the probably were too restricted to do too many crazy things…but, we’re saying this from the viewpoint of modern cinema with it’s plethora of superheroes doing all sorts of crazy and over the top things. And there’s my first point that this isn’t really what Jedi are supposed to do, though again, ironically, one of the biggest arguments against the PT, both back the and even nowadays, is that the Jedi became too flashy.

However, you could also argue that Anakin reaching the level he was at in AOTC despite having only been trained for ten years (at his age it should have been nearly double that) shows his unique skills. But again, Lucas had good ideas with subpar execution in the PT, and who’s to say that being the chosen one means you have to be a god-tier Jedi? I think the prophecy had more to do with simply being the person that would bring balance to the Force, not necessarily being some Force God like they did with Galen Marek (Force Unleashed) and to a somewhat lesser degree, Rey.

I think a lot of this stuff simply relates to audience expectation now that we’ve had over 20 years of CG and several dozen superhero movies that SW has to compete with for people’s attention.

Original Trilogy Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Beyond the OT Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Star Wars is Surrealism, not Science Fiction (essay)
Amazon link to my first novel; Dawn of the Karabu.

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I agree with NeverarGreat.

I would also counter ZkinandBonez’s argument by pointing to another film series, The Matrix.

Towards the end of the movie Neo starts to realize his potential by dodging bullets (the legendary bullet time sequence) and by the end he fully awakens as the One, doing stuff no other redpill can accomplish like flying, stopping bullets and fighting one-on-one with Agents, so having Anakin doing something spectacular with the Force wouldn’t have been that much of a stretch in 2002.

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Fair enough, I stand corrected technology-wise, but I would still argue that Anakin doing Neo-like stuff kinda goes against the rules of the SW universe (at the time anyway) and the overall themes. Besides, the pod-race scene in TPM certainly showcased his special talents and the first action scene of AOTC does have him do some pretty spectacular feats (though within certain lore and narrative restrictions). Anakin also never really got reach his full potential in the movies either. He’s a kid in ep. 1, a padawan in ep. 2 and he turns to the dark side in ep. 3. And this “problem” is more or less why Lucas commissioned two Clone Wars cartoons.

Original Trilogy Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Beyond the OT Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Star Wars is Surrealism, not Science Fiction (essay)
Amazon link to my first novel; Dawn of the Karabu.

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Servii said:

To be fair, she probably only watched the movies once, when they first released. And she may not have even watched TRoS. So she’s not really in a position to go into further detail on them, and that’s not what she wanted to focus on here, anyway.

Jonathan Rinzler said in an interview on YouTube that he spoke to Marcia in the summer of 2018 or 2019. I can’t remember which. It was before The Rise of Skywalker was released. Not that it’s relevant as I agree that wasn’t her focus as she only gave broad strokes to her opinions. Like when it came to The Phantom Menace. I don’t see how some take her words to mean she hates it. To me it seems more like she was very disappointed by it and didn’t like a number of aspects but didn’t hate it like she did with the Sequels. I could be wrong and I don’t want to speak for her but that’s at least the impression I got from her words.

"Pleasure’s fun. It’s great, but you can’t keep it going forever; just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone, and maybe then again, it will come back, and you’ll get to do it again. Joy lasts forever. Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure: it’s about you. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion, that is created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving yourself to somebody else, or something else. And it’s a kind of thing that is, in its subtlety and lowness, much more powerful than pleasure. You get hung up on pleasure; you’re doomed. If you pursue joy; you will find everlasting happiness.” - George Lucas

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Luke’s green lightsaber should have been the main lightsaber of the ST, not Anakin’s. It should have been the one found by Rey, and would have made a lot more sense for Luke to toss it when Rey presents it as he would have been reminded immediately of his failure, and finally Luke’s Force projection should have been seen with his green lightsaber as it would have surely rattled Kylo Ren even more, but sadly it was relegated to a flashback cameo.

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Given what Luke learned about the fall of the Jedi, it’d make sense to toss away the Youngling Killer 9000 like garbage.

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BedeHistory731 said:

Given what Luke learned about the fall of the Jedi, it’d make sense to toss away the Youngling Killer 9000 like garbage.

I wish they had explored that further as it may have actually made me appreciate the idea behind Luke tossing it. It could work as Luke’s second lesson. He tells Rey about the fall of the Jedi and proceeds to tell her about the terrible acts the lightsaber has been part of in galactic history. He shows hesitation but gifts her his green one. She reluctantly accepts and they exchange lightsabers. She tells him that she’ll build her own and will return it back to him. He smiles slightly.

Kylo/Ben sees she has it and gets flustered. He proceeds to tell her his account of what happened with Luke. She becomes more hesitant to be wielding the green one but proceeds to the mirror cave as normal and they have their moment as he can look pass it as his feelings for her are greater.

Luke seems to have come around and is open to teaching her how to build a new lightsaber for his third lesson as a change of mind to his original plans as he has parts to build one. He even sees possiblity in her wielding a double blade if they combine the green and blue together or use the kyber Crystals in both. However as soon as he sees her with Kylo/Ben he gets angry again and eventually he tells her the third account of what really happened. This time she reaches out with his green lightsaber but he doesn’t accept and reluctantly tells her she will need it if she’s going through with her plan.

Kylo/Ben mentions in the lift that he can’t believe she has the lightsaber but everything continues as seen in the film except he uses the green lightsaber to defeat the guard. He comes around to keeping it for himself as a reminder of Luke and that it saved his life. He fights Rey for it but it snaps in half.

This also adds to when Luke uses the blue one on Crait. It helps create the further illusion that he is on the planet and ultimately he reclaims it as a symbol of hope.

"Pleasure’s fun. It’s great, but you can’t keep it going forever; just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone, and maybe then again, it will come back, and you’ll get to do it again. Joy lasts forever. Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure: it’s about you. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion, that is created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving yourself to somebody else, or something else. And it’s a kind of thing that is, in its subtlety and lowness, much more powerful than pleasure. You get hung up on pleasure; you’re doomed. If you pursue joy; you will find everlasting happiness.” - George Lucas