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General Star Wars Random Thoughts Thread — Page 447

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SilverWook said:

I do wonder if there was ever a crawl shot with Revenge.

Late response, but almost certainly not. According to Rinzler’s book, ROTJ finally officially became Return around December 17, 1982. The crawl wasn’t shot until the last day of February, 83.

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Lucas originally planned to make Luke’s lightsaber red and Vader’s blue, but Hirsch suggested switching them because of his knowledge of Christian iconography from the Renaissance era he’d studied in art history at Columbia University in the mid-‘60s.

from this article on Paul Hirsch’s new book

This dovetails with mention of the early lightsaber colors being swapped (and the tractor beam gauge also) in Paul Duncan’s SW Archives book.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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ATMachine said:

Lucas originally planned to make Luke’s lightsaber red and Vader’s blue, but Hirsch suggested switching them because of his knowledge of Christian iconography from the Renaissance era he’d studied in art history at Columbia University in the mid-‘60s.

from this article on Paul Hirsch’s new book

This dovetails with mention of the early lightsaber colors being swapped (and the tractor beam gauge also) in Paul Duncan’s SW Archives book.

I have given a name to my pain, and it is Paul Hirsch.

*shoots laptop*

TRANSMODERNISM > POSTMODERNISM > MODERNISM > PREMODERNISM

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DominicCobb said:

SilverWook said:

I do wonder if there was ever a crawl shot with Revenge.

Late response, but almost certainly not. According to Rinzler’s book, ROTJ finally officially became Return around December 17, 1982. The crawl wasn’t shot until the last day of February, 83.

So the Revenge teaser must have been out earlier than that? I can’t recall when I got my official fan club renewal goodies which included a Revenge patch. IIRC, the fan club sold out of the Revenge poster pretty fast once the name change was public.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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DuracellEnergizer said:

ATMachine said:

Lucas originally planned to make Luke’s lightsaber red and Vader’s blue, but Hirsch suggested switching them because of his knowledge of Christian iconography from the Renaissance era he’d studied in art history at Columbia University in the mid-‘60s.

from this article on Paul Hirsch’s new book

This dovetails with mention of the early lightsaber colors being swapped (and the tractor beam gauge also) in Paul Duncan’s SW Archives book.

I have given a name to my pain, and it is Paul Hirsch.

*shoots laptop*

Care to elaborate, or is this just more negative waves?

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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ATMachine said:

Lucas originally planned to make Luke’s lightsaber red and Vader’s blue, but Hirsch suggested switching them because of his knowledge of Christian iconography from the Renaissance era he’d studied in art history at Columbia University in the mid-‘60s.

from this article on Paul Hirsch’s new book

This dovetails with mention of the early lightsaber colors being swapped (and the tractor beam gauge also) in Paul Duncan’s SW Archives book.

This one is pretty astonishing.

The studio, 20th Century Fox, wanted to cut the Death Star trench battle, feeling like the movie was done after Ben’s death.

How the heck was the movie supposed to end if they didn’t blow up the Death Star?

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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The thinking apparently was, Princess Leia’s rescued, the film can just end there, right? More importantly, think of all the money you’d save by not spending money on filming the trench run. Cash trumping Art, as is sadly standard practice in Hollywood these days.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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So before filming? I can’t imagine they would still want to cut once they saw some footage. It’s a good thing Alan Ladd Jr. was on George’s side.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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Even during post-production editing, apparently. It was enough of a possibility that Lucas had ILM arrange its schedule so the trench-run effects were the first major model work done.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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SilverWook said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

ATMachine said:

Lucas originally planned to make Luke’s lightsaber red and Vader’s blue, but Hirsch suggested switching them because of his knowledge of Christian iconography from the Renaissance era he’d studied in art history at Columbia University in the mid-‘60s.

from this article on Paul Hirsch’s new book

This dovetails with mention of the early lightsaber colors being swapped (and the tractor beam gauge also) in Paul Duncan’s SW Archives book.

I have given a name to my pain, and it is Paul Hirsch.

*shoots laptop*

Care to elaborate, or is this just more negative waves?

He’s paraphrasing Batman (1989). Other than that I guess he just really wished Luke had a red lightsaber?

ATMachine said:

Lucas originally planned to make Luke’s lightsaber red and Vader’s blue, but Hirsch suggested switching them because of his knowledge of Christian iconography from the Renaissance era he’d studied in art history at Columbia University in the mid-‘60s.

from this article on Paul Hirsch’s new book

This dovetails with mention of the early lightsaber colors being swapped (and the tractor beam gauge also) in Paul Duncan’s SW Archives book.

Anyway, weren’t all lightsabers originally red in the first draft? In the concept art they were usually just white (maybe they though colours would be hard to add at that point?). Kind of strange that Luke and Vader would be swapped as the colour symbolism we’re now used to, although a bit on the nose, makes more sense. Or at least its the more obvious choice. Maybe Lucas tried to subvert expectations, but then decided against it?

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All lightsabers were originally white because they tried to make them as in-camera effects, using highly reflective tape on rotating rods! They abandoned it when they realized the effect wasn’t very satisfying and because the rotating rods would often break.

Han: Hey Lando! You kept your promise, right? Not a scratch?
Lando: Well, what’s left of her isn’t scratched. All the scratched parts got knocked off along the way.
Han (exasperated): Knocked off?!

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The original versions are white in the Ralph McQuarrie art too, back when they weren’t even Jedi weapons.

Yub Nub for life

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Z6PO said:

All lightsabers were originally white because they tried to make them as in-camera effects, using highly reflective tape on rotating rods! They abandoned it when they realized the effect wasn’t very satisfying and because the rotating rods would often break.

Well, yes, but I meant in the early scripts. I know the comic adaptation of the first draft made all the lightsabers red, but I don’t know if that’s based on the script or not. I figured MaQuarrie made them white as they by the time of the second draft had probably started to discuss how the effect would be made, and white was the easiest solution (due to the reflective tape, etc. that you mentioned.)

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Now you’ve got me started on lightsaber history!

Only one lightsaber color is mentioned in the 1974 rough draft – that of protagonist Annikin Starkiller – and it’s red.

Ralph McQuarrie’s production paintings for the 1975 second draft introduce the idea of multiple colored lightsabers. But these are still a bit unusual: in his painting of Darth Vader dueling Luke Starkiller’s brother Deak, Vader’s saber is blue and Deak’s is golden. Meanwhile, lightsaber-wielding stormtroopers have white lightsabers to match their white armor.

George Lucas initially tried to achieve the lightsaber effects in-camera by using special spinning rods (powered by hidden electric cables) with a luminescent coating. When a light was shone on them, they would appear to glow. This method only allowed for one color to be used on all lightsaber blades in the same shot. Tests on the Blu-ray show that red and blue were considered, but Lucas ultimately opted for white lightsabers across the board.

A few of Ralph McQuarrie’s later publicity paintings for SW 1977 adopt this design – for instance, his early art for the novelization cover, which is a new version of his painting of the Deak/Vader duel.

When the in-camera effects proved unsatisfactory, Lucas decided to use rotoscoping to enhance the effect. This allowed for McQuarrie-style individually colored blades to be introduced.

Evidently the initial notion was red = good and blue = evil, matching up with the blue saber color McQuarrie gave Vader, as well as Annikin’s lightsaber color in the rough draft. But as we now know, Paul Hirsch convinced Lucas to flip the colors. (As Michael Kaminski has also noted, the 1977 film’s lightsaber color scheme matches the color motifs of swords in Lord of the Rings.)

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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ATMachine said:

Now you’ve got me started on lightsaber history!

Only one lightsaber color is mentioned in the 1974 rough draft – that of protagonist Annikin Starkiller – and it’s red.

Ralph McQuarrie’s production paintings for the 1975 second draft introduce the idea of multiple colored lightsabers. But these are still a bit unusual: in his painting of Darth Vader dueling Luke Starkiller’s brother Deak, Vader’s saber is blue and Deak’s is golden. Meanwhile, lightsaber-wielding stormtroopers have white lightsabers to match their white armor.

George Lucas initially tried to achieve the lightsaber effects in-camera by using special spinning rods (powered by hidden electric cables) with a luminescent coating. When a light was shone on them, they would appear to glow. This method only allowed for one color to be used on all lightsaber blades in the same shot. Tests on the Blu-ray show that red and blue were considered, but Lucas ultimately opted for white lightsabers across the board.

A few of Ralph McQuarrie’s later publicity paintings for SW 1977 adopt this design – for instance, his early art for the novelization cover, which is a new version of his painting of the Deak/Vader duel.

When the in-camera effects proved unsatisfactory, Lucas decided to use rotoscoping to enhance the effect. This allowed for McQuarrie-style individually colored blades to be introduced.

Evidently the initial notion was red = good and blue = evil, matching up with the blue saber color McQuarrie gave Vader, as well as Annikin’s lightsaber color in the rough draft. But as we now know, Paul Hirsch convinced Lucas to flip the colors. (As Michael Kaminski has also noted, the 1977 film’s lightsaber color scheme matches the color motifs of swords in Lord of the Rings.)

Thanks, lots of new details there I hadn’t heard before.

Just as a side-note though, I guess it’s debatable whether Vader’s lightsaber is blue or just white on a blue background in the Deak vs Vader painting.

It’s also interesting how the lightsaber has over the past 40+ years gotten more and more “special” while they started as simple futuristic weapons. They went from common weapon to the unique weapon of the Jedi and Sith. Then the colours became significant. And now in the new canon even the crystals inside have gone from simple rocks to living crystals with force-related powers.

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ray_afraid said:

ZkinandBonez said:

in the new canon even the crystals inside [the lightsabers] have gone from simple rocks to living crystals with force-related powers.

…Really?

Kyber crystals in the new canon are described as having organic properties, and are connected to the Force. So a crystal and a Force-user can be drawn together, almost like magnets. Honestly this isn’t really a stretch from what has been established, Yoda says the Force can flow through people, plants, even rocks.

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I don’t think that’s a new canon thing. The KOTOR games have that mechanic where certain Crystals allow for different Force related boosts. I remember from the second game that there’s a specific crystal that belongs specifically to you.
Star Wars Galaxies also featured unique crystals tied to specific Jedi that allowed you to have special traits/abilities once you “tuned” your character to it.
Those are only examples I know of, but I imagine that concept had to be explored in other Pre-Disney SW lore besides the ones I listed.

The Hope Awakens

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SilverWook said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

ATMachine said:

Lucas originally planned to make Luke’s lightsaber red and Vader’s blue, but Hirsch suggested switching them because of his knowledge of Christian iconography from the Renaissance era he’d studied in art history at Columbia University in the mid-‘60s.

from this article on Paul Hirsch’s new book

This dovetails with mention of the early lightsaber colors being swapped (and the tractor beam gauge also) in Paul Duncan’s SW Archives book.

I have given a name to my pain, and it is Paul Hirsch.

*shoots laptop*

Care to elaborate, or is this just more negative waves?

It’s no secret that I’m no fan of “blue lightsabers = good, red lightsabers = bad”, is it? It didn’t bother me so much in the OT, as there were only three lightsaber wielders running about, but I’ve since found it incredibly trite and irksome after the PT made it universal. The status quo’s even more vexing now with the revelation that Lucas initially seriously considered the inverse.

TRANSMODERNISM > POSTMODERNISM > MODERNISM > PREMODERNISM

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 (Edited)

Lightsaber crystals being semi-organic Force-resonators is seriously one of the additions to the canon I don’t dislike. I don’t like a lot of the baggage that’s come with it (bleeding crystals, FFS), but the concept in-and-of itself is a good one. The lightsaber should’ve been a mystical weapon from the start.

TRANSMODERNISM > POSTMODERNISM > MODERNISM > PREMODERNISM

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DuracellEnergizer said:

SilverWook said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

ATMachine said:

Lucas originally planned to make Luke’s lightsaber red and Vader’s blue, but Hirsch suggested switching them because of his knowledge of Christian iconography from the Renaissance era he’d studied in art history at Columbia University in the mid-‘60s.

from this article on Paul Hirsch’s new book

This dovetails with mention of the early lightsaber colors being swapped (and the tractor beam gauge also) in Paul Duncan’s SW Archives book.

I have given a name to my pain, and it is Paul Hirsch.

*shoots laptop*

Care to elaborate, or is this just more negative waves?

It’s no secret that I’m no fan of “blue lightsabers = good, red lightsabers = bad”, is it? It didn’t bother me so much in the OT, as there were only three lightsaber wielders running about, but I’ve since found it incredibly trite and irksome after the PT made it universal. The status quo’s even more vexing now with the revelation that Lucas initially seriously considered the inverse.

This I agree with. It shouldn’t be as simplistic as “red = evil, blue & green = good”. What the wielder does with the blade should matter, not just its color. (Having said that, the color dichotomy seems like a storytelling tool ripe for subversion, but good luck finding that in SW stories released these days.)

It’s also worth remembering that Luke’s green blade in ROTJ was meant to suggest him being somewhere between light & dark, due to his conflict after learning that Vader was his father and Ben & Yoda lied to him. Of course the prequels threw that out the window.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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It’s new canon. Ahsoka novel and even the Darth Vader:Lords of the Sith comic. Specifically dealing with Sith lightsabers. In old EU red lightsabers were specifically non-organic and had no force sensitivity. In the new canon all crystals have organic properties and the Sith have to force their will on their crystal, making it “bleed.”

This is why Kylo’s blade is so interesting. My assumption is he went to “bleed” his original crystal but since he himself is conflicted inside the bleeding process did not take and the crystal cracked. Hence the need for the side vents. They were not intentional design decisions but a result of using his cracked crystal.

Green is not a creative color

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It’s a bit strange that the new canon puts so much emphasis on the Kyber Crystals “bleeding”.

The name comes from the Kiber Crystal(s) in the 1975 second & third drafts of SW, which were magic Force talismans but not AFAIK used to power lightsabers.

Originally the name derived from the Khyber Pass on the border of Pakistan & Afghanistan: a far-flung frontier of the British Empire in the Victorian era, and hence featured in many tales of 19th-century imperialist derring-do. (The more things change…)

As a result, in Cockney rhyming slang “Khyber Pass,” or just “Khyber” for short, was used to refer to one’s buttocks.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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ATMachine said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

SilverWook said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

ATMachine said:

Lucas originally planned to make Luke’s lightsaber red and Vader’s blue, but Hirsch suggested switching them because of his knowledge of Christian iconography from the Renaissance era he’d studied in art history at Columbia University in the mid-‘60s.

from this article on Paul Hirsch’s new book

This dovetails with mention of the early lightsaber colors being swapped (and the tractor beam gauge also) in Paul Duncan’s SW Archives book.

I have given a name to my pain, and it is Paul Hirsch.

*shoots laptop*

Care to elaborate, or is this just more negative waves?

It’s no secret that I’m no fan of “blue lightsabers = good, red lightsabers = bad”, is it? It didn’t bother me so much in the OT, as there were only three lightsaber wielders running about, but I’ve since found it incredibly trite and irksome after the PT made it universal. The status quo’s even more vexing now with the revelation that Lucas initially seriously considered the inverse.

This I agree with. It shouldn’t be as simplistic as “red = evil, blue & green = good”. What the wielder does with the blade should matter, not just its color. (Having said that, the color dichotomy seems like a storytelling tool ripe for subversion, but good luck finding that in SW stories released these days.)

It’s a subversion I was hoping to see in the ST. When Kylo Ren was first revealed in the TFA teaser, I strongly hoped him being painted as the trilogy’s new baddie was just misdirection and that the film would show he was actually one of the protagonists. In hindsight, I should’ve known better, but I was cautiously optimistic that Star Wars free of Lucas’ stranglehold would be able to evolve in new, interesting directions.

It’s also worth remembering that Luke’s green blade in ROTJ was meant to suggest him being somewhere between light & dark, due to his conflict after learning that Vader was his father and Ben & Yoda lied to him. Of course the prequels threw that out the window.

Never heard that before. Green can be a sinister colour, though, especially paired with Luke’s black outfit, so I can buy it. The prequels did so much damage to the lore.

TRANSMODERNISM > POSTMODERNISM > MODERNISM > PREMODERNISM

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Duracell, do you mean you were hoping Kylo might’ve been pretending to be bad, like he was undercover or something?

Yeah, I think the term “bleeding” has been a gripe for some people regarding the new lore surrounding Kyber crystals, but I just understand it as a turn of phrase. If you just think of bleeding as “corrupting” a crystal rather than it literally bleeding, it makes more sense.