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Info: 2006 GOUT DVD using 'Faces' PCM Sound?

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Howdy all!

Have just been reading about the DD sound mix of the GOUT DVD’s. Why they choose to do this rather than give us the raw PCM which they COULD have done with the 2-3gig of free space remaining on the dual layer discs is beyond me. I mean the new DVDs sound pretty good, but after listening to the ‘Faces’ LDs again there’s no contest - 16-bit sound smuch better as you’d expect.

Being somewhat new to all this, how easy would it be to take the raw 16-bit PCM audio of the ‘Faces’ laserdiscs (which I have on my hard drive from using the digital out of my Pioneer CDL-2950) and to splice it into the new GOUT DVDs? Seems to me we’d then have a “perfect” representation of the 1993/5 era laserdiscs then. Would the PCM need to be increased to 48khz first?

I have access to a laptop with Adobe premiere, so how easy/difficult would it be to strip out the DD soundtrack, and replace it with the ‘Faces’ PCM audio?

Many thanks!

  • John
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Yes, you'd need to resample 44.1 > 48 kHz.


I don't have a copy of the DVD-Video spec so I'm not sure if it's technically required, but I understand there are players out there which will choke if they don't find a DD track. Perhaps it's best to leave it on too if both will fit.

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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Hi thanks for that - I guess if there's enough space left (which at 2-3G there is!) I'll leave the DD mix in as well then.

Right now I need a crash course in how to use Adobe Premiere - anyone know of any useful sites I might try? I'll have a looksy on Google as well.

Cheers!
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Without stripping any of the audio tracks, my NTSC GOUT VIDEO_TS folder is 7.37 GB (7,912,931,328 bytes). I don't see how you come up with 2-3 gigs of free space there... Even with getting rid of the menus and trailer on there, I don't think you'll have enough room.

You can go about your business. Move along, move along.

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Originally posted by: Darth Mallwalker
Yes, you'd need to resample 44.1 > 48 kHz.


I don't have a copy of the DVD-Video spec so I'm not sure if it's technically required, but I understand there are players out there which will choke if they don't find a DD track. Perhaps it's best to leave it on too if both will fit.


I wouldn't bother retaining the DD track just to avoid the potential for hanging. I have NUMEROUS fan-made concert DVDs that have only PCM audio. In the trading groups I'm in, I've never heard of anyone having a problem with these.

Of course, if MoveAlong is correct that there won't be enough room, then this is all moot anyhow.

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Hi move along!

That's very interesting - Just checked my disc properly (sorry for my off the mark space remaining statement earlier) I have the PAL DVD and that is 6,91 GB (6,910,599,168) GB in size (inc. all the extras).

I wonder why the NTSC version is larger?.....

I thought it would have been th eother way around as PAL DVDs contain more information as I understand it? (which I probably don't ;-) )


- John
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Could be a few reasons.
They may have compressed the PAL version more, they may not have bothered to IVTC when they made the DVD of the NTSC version and wasted a whole heap of space storing the 'extra' interlaced frames, could be other audio tracks, could be anything. I haven't seen the US version so can't really say.

I am amazed at the level of laziness/contempt shown to the PAL regions, a rescale of the NTSC version when they have a PAL master is really unforgivable. I sent mine back with a 'note'.
We often get the rough end of the pineapple in PAL-Land with less extras and so on, but an uprez of an NTSC disc, that is non-anamporphic to start with, that is just pathetic.
Sure the end result isn't totally horrible, but it is way below what a straight PAL transfer would have been. It is like they are *trying* to be bastages about it.
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Hmm I was reasonably happy with my PAL GOUT, but this makes me unhappier, as does the lack of the proper PCM audio... Just for reference purposes the video_ts folder on the PAL release is 6.45 GB (6,448,742,400) in size. Wonder if the NTSC is perhaps the version to have then as far as picture quality is concerned? Every byte helps afterall...
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PCM audio is not a legal format. You have to have a DD track first (then you can also have a raw one too)... there's no evidence yet that the laserdisc PCM *sounds* better... so it's better not to assume it's worse just because it's compressed.
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make Lucas lose a lot of his money
and make him look bad to the entire world
and you could be well known and liked

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In before the Boris Bashing starts...

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I've got both the Faces LDs and the GOUT Star Wars DVD (still undecided whether to get the other two yet or not) and very high quality amplification, and to my ears at least the raw PCM of the laserdisc is far superior and punchy to the DD DVD. Greater dynamic range as well. When you think about it the DD soundtrack is really like an MP3 of the 'original' 16-bit PCM soundtrack. I don't think the DD tracks sucks at all, BUT the 16 bit is clearly superior especially for the finer nuances of the music.

Being as we didn't get the anamorphic transfer, they at least they should really have given us the option of the full 16-bit transfer of the soundtrack at least. Then at least we would have the best transfer possible of the 1993/5 era laserdisc, which I think is as good as we will get it until Lucasfilm is no longer under George's command.
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Originally posted by: boris
PCM audio is not a legal format. You have to have a DD track first (then you can also have a raw one too)... there's no evidence yet that the laserdisc PCM *sounds* better... so it's better not to assume it's worse just because it's compressed.

(emphasis mine)

From Wikipedia:
In countries using the PAL system standard DVD-Video releases must contain at least one audio track using the PCM, MP2, or AC-3 format, and all standard PAL players must support all three of these formats. A similar standard exists in countries using the NTSC system, though with no requirement mandating the use or support for the MP2 format.


From DVDDemystified:
Dolby Digital or PCM audio is required on 525/60 (NTSC) discs[.]
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
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Originally posted by: boris
PCM audio is not a legal format. You have to have a DD track first (then you can also have a raw one too)... there's no evidence yet that the laserdisc PCM *sounds* better... so it's better not to assume it's worse just because it's compressed.


...Must.........Resist.......

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Originally posted by: seventiesfilmnut
When you think about it the DD soundtrack is really like an MP3 of the 'original' 16-bit PCM soundtrack. I don't think the DD tracks sucks at all, BUT the 16 bit is clearly superior especially for the finer nuances of the music.


Just out of curiosity, have you ABXed them, or are these sighted comparisons?
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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Originally posted by: seventiesfilmnut
Hmm I was reasonably happy with my PAL GOUT, but this makes me unhappier, as does the lack of the proper PCM audio... Just for reference purposes the video_ts folder on the PAL release is 6.45 GB (6,448,742,400) in size. Wonder if the NTSC is perhaps the version to have then as far as picture quality is concerned? Every byte helps afterall...


Hmm, you must have compressed the video, because when I rip my PAL version (just 1 audio track, English) I have 7.355.456.659 bytes without any of the extras. With the extra's I have 8.214.358.016 bytes :/ I didn't compress anything.

MS
.: Revenge of the Jedi 0.83 MS Edition :.
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This was the reading from Windows Explorer using the original disc....

And in answer to the other question I did a direct A/B - in each case the deeper bass and greater dynamic range (the range between the quietest to loudest sound) turned out to be the 'Faces' LD.

To be perfectly fair though without having first heard the laserdisc I wouldn't know what I was missing, but as the 16-bit PCM track EXISTS and COULD HAVE BEEN USED on this release, it's a crying shame they just went with DD only.
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Originally posted by: seventiesfilmnut
I've got both the Faces LDs and the GOUT Star Wars DVD (still undecided whether to get the other two yet or not) and very high quality amplification, and to my ears at least the raw PCM of the laserdisc is far superior and punchy to the DD DVD. Greater dynamic range as well. When you think about it the DD soundtrack is really like an MP3 of the 'original' 16-bit PCM soundtrack. I don't think the DD tracks sucks at all, BUT the 16 bit is clearly superior especially for the finer nuances of the music.

Being as we didn't get the anamorphic transfer, they at least they should really have given us the option of the full 16-bit transfer of the soundtrack at least. Then at least we would have the best transfer possible of the 1993/5 era laserdisc, which I think is as good as we will get it until Lucasfilm is no longer under George's command.


I would love to have a disc with the 2.0 DD, uncompressed PCM, and a 1.0 DD-mono mix. Doesn't sound like all of this would fit onto a disc, but it would be great, neverless.
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What's the consensus on what the best available PCM source is? I know cowclops v2 has PCM. Is it better than the original TR47's? I know some people said that the audio on that release was too "hot". Any other releases use the PCM?

You can go about your business. Move along, move along.

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@Number20
If you have the PCM audio why would you also want the DD 2.0???

@MoveAlong
If I remember correctly tr47 had PCM captured with coax cables and cowclops v2 has PCM captured digitally. That's why I want to use the PCM audio of cc v2 because I think it's an exact digital copy. I hope someone can confirm this.
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I don't have TR47 release to compare these all against, but there is also a PCM track on the Moth3r PAL/Dr.M NTSC releases that is excellent. Don't know if it is a digital capture or not.

@Arnie - The DD track in addition to the PCM track is to solve the potential problems that a few players have with PCM. But it might be unneeded for most everyone. So, If one wants to get a bit different about it and not repetitious, one could make the DD track the actual theatrical sound mix, taken off the earliest laserdisc release.
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Actually, I know for sure what audio is on the Dr. M NTSC versions because he used audio I captured. It's from the DC captured with coax cables through a canopus ADVC-55 (and played by a Pioneer DVL-919). Cool to hear you think it's excellent I don't know if he processed the audio in any way though...
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Originally posted by: Arnie.d
If I remember correctly tr47 had PCM captured with coax cables and cowclops v2 has PCM captured digitally. That's why I want to use the PCM audio of cc v2 because I think it's an exact digital copy. I hope someone can confirm this.
Technically it's not "exact" since it must be resampled from 44.1 to 48kHz. Software is involved. If it's buggy software . . . "garbage out" as they say.

I think Cowclops did a better job with his audio the second time; however, I don't think he ever said which method he used.
If anyone else can find quotes from Cowclops, I'd be interested to know for sure.


MeBeJedi's ANH prototype (seeded by Blaksvn@myspleen) has a PCM track which he ripped from his Faces set using his Pioneer 701's optical fiber output.


Just to be clear, Moth3r's set doesn't have PCM. (Although Doctor M did use Moth3r's video. Maybe that's what Number20 meant to say.)
Also for clarity, "coax" might refer to analog or digital. Arnie.d used the term in analog context, but my DVD player for example, has a digital coax port.

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

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Originally posted by: Number20
I don't have TR47 release to compare these all against, but there is also a PCM track on the Moth3r PAL/Dr.M NTSC releases that is excellent. Don't know if it is a digital capture or not.

@Arnie - The DD track in addition to the PCM track is to solve the potential problems that a few players have with PCM. But it might be unneeded for most everyone. So, If one wants to get a bit different about it and not repetitious, one could make the DD track the actual theatrical sound mix, taken off the earliest laserdisc release.


Seriously, I have never heard the original stereo track to Star Wars, but I've heard the mono and the 70mm, which is kind of ironic because the stereo mix was actually released. And it hasn't been used in ANY projects....

I would LOVE to hear the original stereo mix coupled with the new OOT DVD.
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Originally posted by: Davis
And it hasn't been used in ANY projects....
dark_jedi's capture of his '85 laserdisc (Cat# 1130-84) has it.
[Before anybody objects, the '85 VHS release featured the remix, but the '85 laserdisc had the original mix.]
segaflip posted it to alt.binaries.starwars on 08 August.

segaflip also posted Neil S. Bulk's lossless audio-only capture of the same on 2005-10-17.

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r