Flaws, plotholes, and "could-have-been-done-betters" in the OT (alternate plot points especially welcome)

Author: RicOlie_2
Date: 14-Jan-2014, 3:53 PM

Author: RicOlie_2
Time: 14-Jan-2014 3:53 PM (Edited)
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We have a few threads about things that could have been improved on (an understatement, I know) in the PT, but how about the OT? What could have been done differently?

EDIT: To clarify, this does not include technical flaws, but story points, characterizations, etc.

When I have time to type out a longer post, I will, but for now I'll just say that the Ewoks should have been a lot less cute and cuddly and the stormtroopers should have been actually being able to fire a blaster.

Author: vacuum
Time: 14-Jan-2014 4:33 PM
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liked to have seen the faster duel of luke and vader that they originally rehearsed for empire.

Author: TM2YC
Time: 14-Jan-2014 5:01 PM
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vacuum said:

liked to have seen the faster duel of luke and vader that they originally rehearsed for empire.

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Author: RicOlie_2
Time: 14-Jan-2014 5:12 PM
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How did that merit a double facepalm?

Author: Moth3r
Time: 14-Jan-2014 5:22 PM
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The line "there'll be no escape for the princess this time" should have been "there'll be no escape for the captain this time" - would have removed the continuity error later where C3PO doesn't recognise Princess Leia.

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Author: Leonardo
Time: 14-Jan-2014 5:55 PM
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hey, good call. I think it could be reasonably fixed, 3PO says "Captain Antilles" later in the movie, IIRC.

Author: RicOlie_2
Time: 14-Jan-2014 6:03 PM
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Personally I'm happy with Adywan's fix (changing it to "There'll be no escape this time"). A more major plot point I think could've been better is Darth Vader's character. I think he should have been like he was in ESB the whole time. In ANH he isn't the scary, domineering Sith Lord who kills those who dissatisfy him.

Author: TM2YC
Time: 14-Jan-2014 6:03 PM (Edited)
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RicOlie_2 said:

How did that merit a double facepalm?

Fast LS duels are one of the many flaws with the PT, slow and talky LS duels are exactly what is right with the OT.

So it's not only, not a flaw but it's actually a highlight, hence the double nature of that facepalm.

(I was joking as well)

but on the topic...

Lucas made the first half of ANH slow as hell on purpose because he didn't think people would be able to follow the story. We all had no problem and loved the film so it's a shame he wasn't more bold and cut out about 15 minutes from the start (All the time spent on Tatooine) and used that extra quarter hour adventuring aboard the Death Star with Leia.

I'd kill for an extra 15 minutes of Leia bickering with Han, Leia insulting Chewbacca, Leia shooting stormtroopers, Leia talking all over Luke and generally shouting orders and being badass.

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Author: TM2YC
Time: 14-Jan-2014 6:04 PM
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RicOlie_2 said:

Personally I'm happy with Adywan's fix (changing it to "There'll be no escape this time"). A more major plot point I think could've been better is Darth Vader's character. I think he should have been like he was in ESB the whole time. In ANH he isn't the scary, domineering Sith Lord who kills those who dissatisfy him.

Totally

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Author: RicOlie_2
Time: 14-Jan-2014 6:07 PM
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Ryan McAvoy said:

RicOlie_2 said:

How did that merit a double facepalm?

Fast LS duels are one of the many flaws with the PT, slow and talky LS duels are exactly what is right with the OT.

So it's not only, not a flaw but it's actually a highlight, hence the double nature of that facepalm.

(I was joking as well)

but on the topic...

Lucas made the first half of ANH slow as hell on purpose because he didn't think people would be able to follow the story. We all had no problem and loved the film so it's a shame he wasn't more bold and cut out about 15 minutes from the start (All the time spent on Tatooine) and used that extra quarter hour adventuring aboard the Death Star with Leia.

I'd kill for an extra 15 minutes of Leia bickering with Han, Leia insulting Chewbacca, Leia shooting stormtroopers, Leia talking all over Luke and generally shouting orders and being badass.

Personally I don't have a problem with fast sabre fights, as long as they're done a certain way. They need to be interspersed with dialogue, emotional, and economic (as in not wasting energy jumping over people's heads, flipping, spinning, etc.). If it is done so that it isn't eye candy, then I'm all for it.

Author: imperialscum
Time: 14-Jan-2014 6:51 PM
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To be honest I don't think anything could be done better in a sense that I really like it the way it is.

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Author: RicOlie_2
Time: 14-Jan-2014 6:56 PM
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To be dishonest, I agree with you.

Author: DominicCobb
Time: 14-Jan-2014 7:12 PM
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The fact that Leia loses her planet is extremely under used in her characterization. For ANH, that's okay or whatever, because it's a standalone fantasy fun adventure film. We don't want a moping Princess being saved. But still. In ESB, there is no mention, same with ROTJ. Unfortunate. (On a similar note some people criticize Luke's lack of reaction to his family's death, but I think the fact that it provokes him to join the rebellion is about enough.)

There are also a large number of character and story problems with ROTJ, but these have been discussed at length.

As well, the acting isn't perfect. I have arguments with my friends often about what is the best film trilogy and I always say the OT, but I always have to concede acting to stuff like LOTR, The Godfather, The Dark Knight, etc.

Author: RicOlie_2
Time: 14-Jan-2014 7:16 PM (Edited)
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Yeah, Leia even says "There's no time for sorrows Commander", which seems like a bit of an underreaction to the fact that she lost her parents, her friends, her planet, her dog, etc. forever in a quick second. It's not as if her house burned down, she lost just about everything for goodness sake!

Author: SilverWook
Time: 14-Jan-2014 7:31 PM
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Moth3r said:

The line "there'll be no escape for the princess this time" should have been "there'll be no escape for the captain this time" - would have removed the continuity error later where C3PO doesn't recognise Princess Leia.

You mean when he pretends not to know who she is when Luke triggers the hologram? When you're a former rebellion droid in the hands of new owners who might be more sympathetic to the Empire, it's best to play dumb in the short term.

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Author: RicOlie_2
Time: 14-Jan-2014 7:33 PM
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But 3PO's not that clever. He blabs all kinds of things he shouldn't and doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut.

Author: TM2YC
Time: 14-Jan-2014 7:38 PM
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“He says it's nothing, sir. Merely a malfunction. Old data. Pay it no mind.”

3PO know that he is lying to Luke ^ when he says this, he saw Leia giving R2 the message a few hours before. Then as soon as Luke leaves the room (To go have some blue milk) he admonishes R2 for not trusting Luke. If he is saying to R2 "He's our new master, we can trust him" this demonstates he knew R2 wasn't telling the truth to Luke.

So I can't understand why people see a contradiction in the mention of the princess in private and then the denial later on in front of Luke (Who they just met).

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Author: SilverWook
Time: 14-Jan-2014 7:38 PM
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He misdirected the stormtroopers that stormed the control room on the Death Star. Arguably, he did dumb things in the sequels, but let's pretend there's just one movie for the moment. ;)

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Author: RicOlie_2
Time: 14-Jan-2014 7:40 PM
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I suppose having viewed it in context of the prequels, I had come to regard C-3PO as being somewhat of a dimwit by the time I got to Episode IV, and never really thought he might be doing something deliberately clever.

Author: TM2YC
Time: 14-Jan-2014 7:49 PM (Edited)
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3PO is fussy, panicky, self important etc but in the OT he's never dumb. In ESB he repeatedly tries to tell Han vital information and gets ignored, in an ESB deleted scene he sets a trap for Stormtroopers (But that doesn't count), he tries to talk sense into Chewbacca who is intent on killing Lando etc. In ROTJ he negotiates with the Ewoks for their help which arguably has more to do with the victory over the Empire than anything Leia does (Again with Han undermining him).

In the PT he was a clown, worse than that he was a fourth wall defying comedian delivering bad puns in AOTC. In TPM and ROTS he does jack sh*t.

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Author: RicOlie_2
Time: 14-Jan-2014 7:51 PM
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In ROTJ though, he wasn't bright enough to realize that he it was Luke who levitated him...I don't know, sometimes he's smart, but other times he just seems a bit slow.

Author: NeverarGreat
Time: 14-Jan-2014 8:12 PM
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RicOlie_2 said:

In ROTJ though, he wasn't bright enough to realize that he it was Luke who levitated him...I don't know, sometimes he's smart, but other times he just seems a bit slow.

It was probably lazy writing, but to be fair to C-3PO he wasn't around Luke when he was levitating rocks and things with Yoda. So even if R2 had told him about Luke's full abilities, he probably wouldn't have believed it.

This brings up another issue with Luke's powers. Han by his own admission doesn't believe in the Force, so when Luke levitates C-3PO it seems strange that we get no reaction from Han. He actually looks quite happy that Luke's sorcery is working, and then immediately makes out with Leia. Exactly how much power does he think Luke has, anyway?

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Author: RicOlie_2
Time: 14-Jan-2014 8:22 PM (Edited)
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I think Han believed in the Force by then. He knew what a Jedi Knight was and believed that Luke was one when Chewie told him.

Author: SilverWook
Time: 14-Jan-2014 8:26 PM
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That brings up the question of whether Threepio has ever actually seen Luke use the Force to levitate objects. Artoo could have told him all about Dagobah, but he might not believe any of it.

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Author: TM2YC
Time: 14-Jan-2014 8:33 PM
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"Flaws and "could-have-been-done-betters" in the OT" aka "The over thinking things thread"

;-)

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