logo Sign In

First Impressions of the OOT ... — Page 11

Author
Time
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Okay, but on the off chance that he's not full of it about how hard that would be to make happen, isn't this release better than not getting it at all?


If all the prints and negative material had been destroyed in a horrible archive fire in 1978 or something then yes. But we know he's full of it.
Author
Time
You guys apparantly do. I personally have no way of knowing myself.
Your focus determines your reality.
Author
Time
I emailed the British Film Institute a while back and they told me that they have prints of all three OOT films archived.

I believe, which others can confirm no doubt, the your Library Of Congress has prints archived.

Many people have indicated that Luca$h has the negatives of all his films at Luca$hFilm and I'm sure they could confirm it.

These DVDs are pathetic.

Don't get me wrong, in some cases I would accept a non-anamorphic, low budget transfer. From a small production company, for example, or a budget DVD company like Prism or some such.

But Luca$hFilm? Come on! You're trying to defend their statement that they couldn't do any better? Of course they can do better.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
Author
Time
They didn't say they -couldn't- do better. They said they weren't interested in doing better.

I don't know much about all these archive copies they have laying around in vaults, maybe they are good enough to get a nice looking transfer.

But Lucasfilm has been saying that their prints they have are all in pretty poor shape. To me that says they -could- spend tons of money to resurrect the original picture quality, but they just don't want to.

Regarding anonomous people who claim to be insiders who know all about how Lucas is lying, well, it must be nice they know that information first hand. It still does me no good.

My point is if they don't do any better, isn't this better than not getting it at all?
Your focus determines your reality.
Author
Time
Someone posted somewhere that Lucas saved all the original bluescreen shots, which enebled them to recomposite all those shots again for the Special Edition. It was noted on Starwars.com about a year and a half ago that for the shots of Ben talking about Vader in the ROTS trailer, they pulled one of them from the original dalies shot in '76. Lucas is a known pack-rat of all of his film sources. You don't think that Lucas has the original film negatives, or at least high-generation prints of the original films (or both) sitting in his vault in San Francisco? Please. Mverta claims to have personally seen hi-def OOT source material that has already been transfered. To believe Lucasfilm when they say that the D1 LD master tape is the best source of the OOT they have is just naive.

My Projects:
[Holiday Special Hybrid DVD v2]
[X0 Project]
[Backstroke of the West DVD]
[ROTS Theatrical DVD]

Author
Time
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
They didn't say they -couldn't- do better. They said they weren't interested in doing better ... that says they -could- spend tons of money to resurrect the original picture quality, but they just don't want to ... if they don't do any better, isn't this better than not getting it at all?

No, quite frankly. And I'm not going to let them off with it. I'll keep badgering them until they provide a good product. If they won't do it then screw 'em. I'm not wasting my money on this lazy effort.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
Author
Time
Originally posted by: Mike O

Um, no. People are trolls when they attack members of the forums and insult the site and its members. Gomer is simply offering a different opinion. That doesn't make him a troll.

Let me explain this to you then, because you're missing my point: I didn't bother with Gomer's particular response to me, because, it does in fact contain unsubstantiated claims and hollow statements for the most part. Aside from that particular response, he does indeed offer alternative opinions here, and I actually haven't argued against anyone's desire to present opposing views anywhere around here. On the contrary, I am a strong supporter of having different opinoins presented to me, explained and argued for, since this is what usually makes for the most interesting discussions. This, of course, and by all means, includes Gomer when he posts to present different views on things.
Author
Time
New here, as I couldn't resist coming over here.

Go-Mer,

I agree with your assessments but from what I've read around the next since this who fiasco started, it does seem that Lucas does have pristine prints of the Theatrical Versions of the Original Trilogy. In a way, it would be ridiculous if he didn't have them.

But, it's really a simple of matter of Lucas doesn't want to release remastered versions of the Original Trilogy on DVD in their theatrical form. It has nothing to do with can't. To him, as you stated Go-Mer, the Special Editions are the remastered versions of the Original Trilogy. It just comes to Lucas' personal preference to regard the Special Editions as his vision of the films. That's all it is.
Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
Author
Time
Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
They didn't say they -couldn't- do better. They said they weren't interested in doing better ... that says they -could- spend tons of money to resurrect the original picture quality, but they just don't want to ... if they don't do any better, isn't this better than not getting it at all?

No, quite frankly. And I'm not going to let them off with it. I'll keep badgering them until they provide a good product. If they won't do it then screw 'em. I'm not wasting my money on this lazy effort.
They aren't on a hook to get off of. If you don't want to buy it, there are plenty of others who will.

I guess if it's a matter of principal to you then I respect that. But I'm wondering who is being damaged more?

Lucas because he didn't get another $60 out of you, or you because you refuse to enjoy the O-OT unless he releases it anamorphically?
Your focus determines your reality.
Author
Time
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
But I'm wondering who is being damaged more? Lucas because he didn't get another $60 out of you, or you because you refuse to enjoy the O-OT unless he releases it anamorphically?

No-one's getting damaged. I'm not emotionally hurt by Luca$h's attitudes. I don't agree with them and I say so. I enjoy the OOT as much as I like. I have two VHS copies of each movie, one for enjoyment and one for preservation. I'm prepared to last on DVD back-ups of my tapes before I'll buy this release. It amounts to more-or-less the same thing anyway. The gains in quality with the Sepember Discs are insufficient for me to want to buy them.

And I don't delude myself that Luca$h would be damaged by my approach either. I'll keep asking for a good product and I hope that, one day, it'll appear. I think it is also true that I'm not the only one willing to wait.

The "hook" I see is Luca$h's claims (well documented) that the OOT, effectively, does not exist any more and that all they could do was transfer the 1993 LaserDisc masters. This is a lie and I won't let him off with that excuse. If he openly said that he wasn't releasing the OOT because he didn't want to, I'd have more respect for him. But he won't because he knows that would alienate elements of the fan community. He wants to milk the cash-cow dry so he tries to keep us guessing. I don't agree with his attitudes. And I say so.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
Author
Time
No, they haven't been lying about it. The never said they -couldn't- do it, Lucas says he doesn't want to spend that kind of money on making it happen.

They say the original negatives were permanantly altered when they created the special editions. They also say the prints they do have are all in poor quality.

I'm not willing to call him a liar based on pure speculation and the word of anonomous people over the internet who claim to have the inside scoop.
Your focus determines your reality.
Author
Time
I'm trusting the reasonably reliable sources I've encountered who have stated that there are more than adequate sources available to produce excellent HD transfers of the OOT even today. Had Lucas suddenly felt the urge to release the OOT on both BluRay and HD-DVD in pristine quality, it wouldn't have taken too long before they'd appear in stores.
Author
Time
See to me Lucas is a reliable source. Most of the time when people accuse him of lying it turns out to be a change of heart on his part, or a complete misunderstanding of what he's saying.
Your focus determines your reality.
Author
Time
Go-Mer,

Not saying I disagree with you, but what happens if there is proof that he does own pristine prints? Would he be a liar then?

All I think he's doing (really) is protecting the product to which he feels is his vision of the Original Trilogy. I have nothing against that.

Either way, if he does have the pristine prints, he's still not going to spend money to remaster them for DVD. Not going to happen to the "workprints." And you can forget about HD dvd for a while. It took Star Wars 7 years to reach DVD. Expect the same with HD.
Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
Author
Time
The fact that the O-neg no longer conforms to the original 1977 version of Star Wars is a technicality that Lucasfilm has been twisting into confusing people that "the original version doesn't exist anymore" as in "the original version has been destroyed and is not coming back" which is clearly absurd. Aside from the fact that an O-neg scan is by no means the only source of a high-res telecine (in fact only rarely is the O-neg used for releases), various private collectors and public institutions have undertaken preservation efforts, and it has been well documented as well that not only are the original negatives and interpositives still preserved in the LFL archives, but that Lucas himself personally owns specially-made high quality prints, and even lent these to the laboratories who restored the SE as reference guides.

Why didn't they make a new transfer for this release? Because they didn't have to. As can be seen--and the dvds are currently in Amazon.com's top ten sales--they could get just as much money from us by not spending a cent. This way we buy both these and the eventually-released restored versions. Obviously this has nothing to do with personal preference or artistic vision of Lucas, otherwise he would not be releasing them. And besides that, the whole thing was schemed up by Jim Ward, not Lucas himself, who isn't usually too involved with his companies sales. Its simply about getting money from people. 2001 was the first year of Lucasfilm dvd and they had TPM. 2002 had AOTC. 2003 had Indy trilogy. 2004 had the SE. 2005 had another release of teh SE which didn't do too good but it was okay because they also had ROTS. Now they need something else so they throw a LD transfer of the OOT and they have another huge dvd sale. Next year will have the saga box set, which i feel probably wont sell very well unless they include the OOT in a restored form.
Author
Time
Originally posted by: Jumpman
Go-Mer,

Not saying I disagree with you, but what happens if there is proof that he does own pristine prints? Would he be a liar then?

All I think he's doing (really) is protecting the product to which he feels is his vision of the Original Trilogy. I have nothing against that.

If that were the case, I don't think he would have released the O-OT on DVD at all.
Your focus determines your reality.
Author
Time
zombie,

"And besides that, the whole thing was schemed up by Jim Ward, not Lucas himself, who isn't usually too involved with his companies sales."

About time someone said this.
Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
Author
Time
Still he had to okay it for Jim to do it.
Your focus determines your reality.
Author
Time
Go-Mer,

Very true. I'm sure he didn't want to but he had to offer something to justify releasing them individually. Of course, Ward is probably the one who suggested finally putting out the Theatrical Versions...and I'd even go so far as to say Ward wanted them remastered for DVD. It's Lucas who put his foot down on that department. To him, the Special Editions are the main feature, period.

At the end of the day, Lucas should've stuck to his guns while he was in production of Episode III when he said he wanted to wait until after he was finished to deal with the Original Trilogy on DVD.
Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
Author
Time
Originally posted by: zombie84
The fact that the O-neg no longer conforms to the original 1977 version of Star Wars is a technicality that Lucasfilm has been twisting into confusing people that "the original version doesn't exist anymore" as in "the original version has been destroyed and is not coming back" which is clearly absurd. See they didn't say that, a lot of us just assumed that's what he meant by it.
Originally posted by: zombie84
Aside from the fact that an O-neg scan is by no means the only source of a high-res telecine (in fact only rarely is the O-neg used for releases), various private collectors and public institutions have undertaken preservation efforts, and it has been well documented as well that not only are the original negatives and interpositives still preserved in the LFL archives, but that Lucas himself personally owns specially-made high quality prints, and even lent these to the laboratories who restored the SE as reference guides. So you are saying that because third parties are claming Lucas is just a button press away from making a nice anamorphic transfer, that he is the one lying about it? They have been up front about having prints beyond the negative altered to make the SE versions, but they are saying that they are all in pretty bad shape, and would take a lot of restoration work to make them suitable for a new anamorphic transfer. I appreciate the motives for which Lucas -could- be lying, but again I am not willing to judge him a liar on the say so of some anonamous third party who claims to have inside info.
Originally posted by: zombie84
Why didn't they make a new transfer for this release? Because they didn't have to. As can be seen--and the dvds are currently in Amazon.com's top ten sales--they could get just as much money from us by not spending a cent. This way we buy both these and the eventually-released restored versions. If he happens to release them again in a better resolution.Originally posted by: zombie84
Obviously this has nothing to do with personal preference or artistic vision of Lucas, otherwise he would not be releasing them.
Well of course, Lucas' "preference" is the SE version, obviously. To me it's pretty clear he did this release of the O-OT on DVD just for people like us.Originally posted by: zombie84
And besides that, the whole thing was schemed up by Jim Ward, not Lucas himself, who isn't usually too involved with his companies sales. Its simply about getting money from people.
By selling people what they have been asking for for years. To me that's a pretty good way of making money.Originally posted by: zombie84
2001 was the first year of Lucasfilm dvd and they had TPM. 2002 had AOTC. 2003 had Indy trilogy. 2004 had the SE. 2005 had another release of teh SE which didn't do too good but it was okay because they also had ROTS. Now they need something else so they throw a LD transfer of the OOT and they have another huge dvd sale. Next year will have the saga box set, which i feel probably wont sell very well unless they include the OOT in a restored form.
I think it will sell just fine without the O-OT in it.

Your focus determines your reality.
Author
Time
The Saga Boxset is a niche product for the fans more than anything else. The casual fan has enough Star Wars DVDs to last them.
Twisted by the Dark Side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.

-Yoda; Episode III Revenge of the Sith.
Author
Time
Luca$hFilm certainly know that the OOT will make money. I agree that they wouldn't release it at all if that weren't the case. I've been saying that for months. But I certainly think Luca$hFilm have developed hype and conflicting statements into some of their main marketing tools. If you won't have it that they lied then perhaps you will agree that they have issued conflicting statements and half-truths.

The line that I've heard a lot around here, that Luca$h has released the September Discs for 'us' and that we should be grateful for them because he clearly doesn't want to release the OOT at all, doesn't hold much water for me. I don't believe that a big company like Luca$hFilm (or 20th Century Fox, for that matter) would release a product that they weren't damn sure would make a lot of money or that they would release something for a niche audience just out of the goodness of their hearts. They know that the audience for DVDs of the OOT is massive. The OOT were huge box-office draws in their day and are still immensely popular. Not just among 'fans' but generally. They release the OOT on DVD for money, pure and simple.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
Author
Time
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
They say the original negatives were permanantly altered when they created the special editions. They also say the prints they do have are all in poor quality.


While it really seems that the O-NEG was permanently altered when the SE was created, they NEVER said the prints they have are all in poor quality.

Quite the contrary, Lucas prided himself with the fact that he owns a Technicolor dye transfer of STAR WARS, which was used as a reference when they retimed the colours in the SE. We also know form various sources that many UK prints of STAR WARS are also Technicolor dye prints, since the UK had the last Technicolor lab which could create such high quality copies.

The original 35mm master for the OOT release was apparently a 35mm copy, NOT the negative. The differences in burning marks and framing between the PAL and NTSC version proves this.

Other than that, there are films which have been in much worse condition and were much older than Star Wars which could be restored in excellent quality on DVD.

Lots of PR talk going on.
Author
Time
Here is what they said in the form letter linked to by OriginalTrilogy.com.
As you may know, an enormous amount of effort was put into digitally restoring the negatives for the Special Editions. In one scene alone, nearly 1 million pieces of dirt had to be removed, and the Special Editions were created through a frame-by-frame digital restoration. The negatives of the movies were permanently altered for the creation of the Special Editions, and existing prints of the first versions are in poor condition.
How can we verify that they sent a great technicolor print to Lowry digital?
Your focus determines your reality.
Author
Time
Lowry didn't work from prints, they worked from computer hard-drives. Everything was scanned in already.