Extended original cut of first film released way back?

I call bullshit on this.  No version with those scenes was ever released.  Because A. The effects are not finished on those scenes.  B.  No Music or foley work or adr exists only the location set dialogue.

People remember things being there that were not there or were from the comic book, novelization, story book, or radio drama.

A small clip of the unfinished scene with Biggs, Red Leader and Luke talking was shown in the making of star wars.  This is the scene before they get in their individual X-wings to go off and attack the death star and red leader remembers Luke's Father a Jedi knight and not Darth Vader.

We have actually had some interesting indepth discussions on this in here before. Once with a fellow who swore he had seen those very scenes with his own eyes, and was irritated to be told that he had been imagining things, I think, it has been so long ago my details are fuzzy.I'd do the search function to try to find it for you, but the new forum's search function always just pisses me off, so I will let somebody else do it for you. I believe the particular post I am referring to began with a poster asking where he could get his hands on a cut of Empire Strikes Back with extended Hoth scenes he remembered from when he saw it in the theater, or he was looking for a cut of Star Wars where Luke swings the grabbling hook and misses the first time and has to try again, I don't remember which one the conversation started out with, but I think both were discussed.  

There is absolutely no evidence to such scenes having ever been in the film, but very strong evidence to the contrary. Your own post went into a great deal of detail on it actually. It seems people either read the scene in the novel or the story book, or heard about it from friends, it became stuck in their head, then later upon rewatching it they were surprised to see the scene missing. I have had this happen with movies before, I'd remember something happening in the film, and be confused when it didn't happen, then realize that it is from another similar movie, or a movie with the same actors in it, or a parady of that particular movie. Memories are tricky things.

It's unlikely, but possible that it was a workprint?  I don't know.

Vaderisnothayden said:

Hmmm... I'm not confident in dismissing these accounts. I can imagine people remembering things wrong, but these people seem awful certain.

For years I remained convinced that I saw a longer cut of Ghostbusters 2 than what was released on video. To this day, whenever I see the movie I am surprised by the lack of a scene that I "remember." I can't say I'm certain that I ever saw it, but I *feel* that I saw it, since the scene--in some form--was internalized at an early stage. Here's what I think happened:

* GB2 media injected into my mind certain scenes, viz. a slightly longer opening with Dana and the scene where Ray tries to crash the Ecto-1A.

* I saw the movie.

* I didn't own the VHS, but I did read the book a few times and see it several times on TV. Movies are frequently cut on TV, so I assumed the missing scenes had been trimmed for time.

The same conditions obtained among Star Wars fandom, I assume. There was a lot of media out there with the cut scenes, so they were internalized early on. (In some cases, before the movie was even released.) And then, after viewing the movie at the theaters, fans returned to that media, creating and reinforcing a composite narrative with parts from both the movie and the books. In fact, the books may have taken the role of a de facto primary source in the years between theatrical releases. There was no home video market to speak of, thus no way to correct this composite memory, leaving us with a kind of mixed text in the collective memory. I think that is less likely to happen today, with the quick turnaround between theatrical release and DVD release, and the corrective forces at work on the internet.

And, like C3PX said, there's no evidence for a print with these scenes ever making it into distribution. It's like Big Foot or the existence of extraterrestrials--all we really need is one good piece of evidence, and the consensus would do a 180.

Well, I, and this might just be me personally, have a harder time believing someone who says a scene is missing than one who says a scene is added.  While a person who believes something's there who wasn't probably had some stimulus to provoke it (storybooks, novelizations, etc.), someone who claims that something is missing might have simply forgotten that scene.  Hell, as I said the other day in another thread, the first two times I saw ROTS, I could have sworn there was never a wookiee battle.  I wish I'd been right...

Well, a scene could be missing if the projectionist screwed up at a reel change.

Hunter6 said:

Yes, there was an Extended original cut of first film which was about 15 or 20 minutes longer and yes, a little group of theaters showed it, but not long.  It was pulled after two showings on opening today. Lucas has turned this little thing into an urban legend. Some of the Usenet posters are telling the truth. No one could have seen it many times because they all were pulled. It also was missing some effects and the lightsaber effects were odd. It was not the greatest way to see star wars for the first. The only good thing about it is Vader use more force powers and acts more cocky in the original cut. I think one day Lucas will add some of these back in some type of new SE. 

Any facts to back this up?

Oh, geez.  It's posts like that that turn into debacles like DragonBall AF.

Misinformed bkev is misinformed while he listens to unfitting music.  Sorry!

Of course he doesn't have any facts to back it up, because everything he said is completely false. If we are comparing the existence of another cut of Star Wars to aliens, then Hunter is the equivalent of someone claiming he has been abducted by aliens. The conspiracy theory factor is even there, "Lucas has turned this little thing into an urban legend" and comic book writers must have seen it.

I could just as well claim there was in fact a film version of Shadows of the Empire made, and that all the actors stood and acted the same way as they did in the Shadows of the Empire comic books, which proves it exists, because the comic artists obviously saw it in order to drawn the comic the way they did.

It is not uncommon for movie adaptions of comics to include things in the story not found in the film, not just cutscenes, but even things never intended to be in the film. It is also pretty common for scenes not to appear in the panels of a comic book exactly as they appeared in the films, so the fact that the comic book characters have different poses and stances than the ones in the film, doesn't prove anything. Even if the mythical cut does exist, there would be no way to know if the stances are the same as those in the comic short of comparing the two side by side. It is easy for someone to look at the comic book and say, "Yeah! That is exactly what I saw! That was exactly what the scene I saw in the movie looked like!".

Hunter6 said:

Yes, there was an Extended original cut of first film which was about 15 or 20 minutes longer and yes, a little group of theaters showed it, but not long.  It was pulled after two showings on opening today. Lucas has turned this little thing into an urban legend. Some of the Usenet posters are telling the truth. No one could have seen it many times because they all were pulled. It also was missing some effects and the lightsaber effects were odd. It was not the greatest way to see star wars for the first. The only good thing about it is Vader use more force powers and acts more cocky in the original cut. I think one day Lucas will add some of these back in some type of new SE.
    the Marvel comic adaption of Star Wars shows visual details that are only in the original cut. Which make me think the people who work on the Marvel comic adaption of Star Wars saw this cut of the film because the comic visual matches those scenes. How did the artists of the Marvel comic draw things just like how they are in the deleted scenes if they did not see a type of original cut of the film. The screenplay would not show how the actors stood and moved in those scenes.
    This is one Urban Legend which is real. 
    hell, one day in the future Lucas may try to make it seem like the OOT was all in people's heads too and that the SE versions were the original ones.

The Marvel comics didn't see an early cut of the film at all. They were given the script (or draft of the novel)and many, many, if not all, of the publicity & on set stills taken to work with. Comic artists of the 70's were given still material to work with and that's it.  Just look at many of the comic adaptation pics and you'll see that there are so many that look exactly like the publicity stills and not from the movie.They would have worked on the comic many months in advance of its release and well before any final cut of the movie which is why the cut scenes appear. Don't forget that they were working on star wars right up until the last minute. Its just an urban legend that isn't true. How many people have said that they saw luke throw the grappling hook twice, with the first time missing its target? Hasn't this already been debunked because it was never even filmed? So how the hell could they have seen it? It was the same with ESB when people swore that they saw the Wampa drag Luke off and attack the rebel base. Yet again they scrapped that idea during filming so how the hell would it end up finished in a theatre showing?

People remember many things because they saw it in the comic books, heard or read someone else mention it or read it in the novels.

There was only one cut of ANH but with different soundtracks. thats the only difference in that movie. Remember that Star Wars wasn't really favoured by the movie studio and Lucas would not have had the money (and Fox certainly wouldn't ahve given him and more) to be able to do any more than one finished print of the movie for replication and distribution. And the "Lost Cut" exists only in Black & white form in Lucas' vaults. A colour print was supposedly never done and had the world war 2 footage instead of FX. Check the deleted scenes on behind the magic. Its all on set audio. No dubbing work had been done. If these scenes had been originally in this pulled version they would have had the finished audio.

ESB was a different thing all together. The 70mm version and the 35mm were different, with the 70mm version being slightly shorter. The 35mm was the final cut, with a few extra shots and some differing fx, audio and wipes. This i saw, along with many other people and has been documented. Strangely enough, if you think about it, the 70mm version is actually the original, with the 35mm which we all know and love is actually a special edition. lol

Here is an article i found on the net:

  A controversy “Star Wars” has generated over the years is whether or not any scenes were added to or deleted from the film after the initial batch of prints were released to theatres.  Many fans insist changes were made, all of which Lucasfilm representatives have denied in print and at many science-fiction and comic book conventions.  Fan recollections vary wildly and range from additional scenes featuring Luke Skywalker and friend Biggs Darklighter, to an encounter with Jabba the Hutt, to a brief bit with Chewbacca not scaring off the Death Star's Mouse Robot, to a single shot of Luke throwing his grappling hook and missing before throwing a second time successfully so he and Princess Leia could swing across the Death Star chasm.

While there is no doubt that the Jabba the Hutt scene and three scenes set on Tatooine early in the movie featuring Luke (two of which included Biggs) were deleted before the release, “The Unauthorized Star Wars Compendium” includes a claim that the Luke-Biggs reunion scene in the Rebel Hanger appeared in the original 1977 prints, only to be deleted for the 1979 re-release, then re-instated for the 1997 Special Edition.  (The author of “The Unauthorized Star Wars Compendium” declined to be interviewed for this article.)

Deleted Scene – Luke Reunited With Biggs

Memory can be a strange thing, and while it has been difficult to confirm changes made to the film, an explanation for fans’ recollections of seeing things can be traced to the movie's assortment of tie-in publications and merchandise.  For example, the Ballantine novel, the Marvel comic book adaptation, the Topps bubblegum card series, the documentary “The Making Of Star Wars,” and the books “The Star Wars Storybook” and “The Art Of Star Wars” all featured text, photos, footage, or cartoon renditions of scenes scripted and/or shot. Combined with the lack of availability of a (legal) version of “Star Wars” on home video formats until five years following the original theatrical release, one can see how anyone with a vivid imagination can convince themselves that they saw footage that may have never appeared in a theatrical presentation of the movie.

Ok well maybe this will shed some light on all this:

From Starlog #120, July 1987: 

This issue was dedicated to the 10th anniversary of "Star Wars." In
it, there is an article by Roy Thomas entitled, "How I Learned to Stop
Worrying and Love 'Star Wars' (Within Limits)" (nice "Strangelove"
homage), which features his recollections of working on the "Star
Wars" comics for Marvel.

"...anyhow, soon Howard, Steve and I were sitting in the front row in
George's private screening room while the Hollywood heavies slouched
further back with George, and the rough cut began.
     It opened with a 'crawl' of copy meant to suggest the old Flash
Gordon serials that had influenced the movie. But this was NOT the
crawl with which moviegoers are now familiar, nor was there any 'Long
ago, in a galaxy far, far away' lead-in. Rather, the crawl consisted
of totally different copy telling the movie's backstory. (If you want
to know what it said, all you have to do is pick up a back issue of
Marvel's "Star Wars" #1, since the caption there was taken from that
original crawl. George evidently had last-minute thoughts and changed
it just before the opening. In fact, one ILM worker told me that the
story was that, on opening day, George would probably be in the
projection booth at Mann's, pasting on some last bit of film.) [NOTE:
Original crawl text follows this entry.]

Original opening crawl as published in the Marvel adaption of "Star
Wars" #1:

"It is a period of CIVIL WAR in the galaxy. A brave Alliance of
UNDERGROUND FREEDOM FIGHTERS has challenged the tyranny and oppression
of the awesome GALACTIC EMPIRE. To crush the rebellion once and for
all, the EMPIRE is constructing a sinister new BATTLE STATION.
Powerful enough to destroy an entire planet, its COMPLETION will spell
CERTAIN DOOM for the champions of freedom. Striking from a fortress
hidden among the billion stars of the galaxy, REBEL SPACESHIPS have
won their first victory in a battle with the powerful IMPERIAL
STARFLEET. The Empire fears that ANOTHER defeat could bring a THOUSAND
MORE solar systems into the rebellion, and IMPERIAL CONTROL over the
galaxy would be LOST FOREVER."

     Then in came the spaceships. Even in the rough cut and on a
relatively small screen, it was an impressive beginning, and I was
only moderately surprised months later at Mann's Chinese to hear the
shocked gasp of the audience when Big Ship came after Little Ship.
     Next, the fight: stormtroopers vs. rebels. But there were no rays
zipping back and forth across the screen in San Anselmo. Just the
flicker of hand-drawn arrows on the film, to show where the FX would
go.
     Soon, Darth Vader came on and began to speak--with a British
accent. (This was actor David Prowse's own voice, before James Earl
Jones' sepulchral tones were laid in.)
     The movie went on. I noted with chagrin that one scene in the
script--between Luke and some childhood chums, near the beginning--had
been CUT, though it was currently being printed in the comic's first
issue. (And a few irate readers would later castigate us for inserting
things into 'George's Movie.')"

From Screen Superstar magazine #8, "Star Wars: the Full Story," 1977:

"His editors, including his wife, Marcia (Lucas' daughters had earlier
appeared in the film as Jawas), had put together a rough cut. With
Lucas they trimmed it down to preview size. And the previews were VERY
successful. Excitement spread at Twentieth, and through the movie
colony--Lucas had a winner!
     But winner or not, Lucas still wasn't entirely satisfied. The
film ran for over two hours (123 minutes), and Lucas wanted maximum
audience turnover. Thus, the film had to be UNDER two hours, so back
went Lucas and the editors, and six minutes of Biggs Darklighter,
Luke's boyhood pal and fellow rebel pilot, were trashed. The film was
finished."

There. The previews were only shown in private to a select audience (fox & Marvel among them)and even when before Vaders voice and the crawl we all know was finished, including any laser FX and others, all the Biggs scenes were cut. No one would have seen these scenes at the cinema. If they did then they would have heard Dave Prowse's voice as Vader, and no one mentioned that. As you can see from the article the comic was out before the movie was even finished and the first version he saw was the final rough cut and was surprised that all the Biggs scenes were cut. he said he was surprised because they were in the script and not that he had already seen them. Marvel worked from a script to produce the comic and never saw the movie prior to doing the comic. Also, in the comic, Han never met Jabba but instead had a conversation with a different creature. If Jabba had been in the film and the Marvel guys had seen a cut of the film with him in surely he would have been a human?

The comic and the novel came out months before ANH was released at the cinema. Also how old were the people who say they saw these scenes in 1977? Its exactly the same as people who swear they saw some X-wings with blue stripes and that there was comlink chatter from blue squadron. It was in the novels, along with the double grappling throw, that was never in the movie at all.

It's all just an urban myth.

Vaderisnothayden said:

adywan said:

Hasn't this already been debunked because it was never even filmed? So how the hell could they have seen it? It was the same with ESB when people swore that they saw the Wampa drag Luke off and attack the rebel base. Yet again they scrapped that idea during filming so how the hell would it end up finished in a theatre showing?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_scenes_cut_from_Star_Wars_Episode_V:_The_Empire_Strikes_Back

It looks like some of those scenes were filmed. They've got photos there of Luke manning a gun in the base, seemingly against wampas and a tauntaun dead in the base seemingly killed by wampas.

ESB was a different thing all together. The 70mm version and the 35mm were different, with the 70mm version being slightly shorter. The 35mm was the final cut, with a few extra shots and some differing fx, audio and wipes. This i saw, along with many other people and has been documented. Strangely enough, if you think about it, the 70mm version is actually the original, with the 35mm which we all know and love is actually a special edition. lol

See here:

http://www.in70mm.com/news/2003/empire/index.htm

It sounds from that like the 70mm was the final version. That's the version they used for the SE I think. It has a few extra lines.

that shot of luke is just a publicity photo and wasn't to be part of the movie. the wampas attacked the base while Luke was recovering in the medical bay early in the movie (may have even been before Han found Luke, but i haven't got the original script or the novel at hand at the moment). The creature just didn't work and the idea was scrapped during filming, so although scenes were shot hoping that they could fix the wampa problem these scenes never made it into any released cut of the movie.

And only some audio differences were used from the 70mm for the SE. the 70mm wasn't the final version as Lucas ordered a few extra fx shots of the falcon at the end amongst others. The 70mm was the first version with the 35mm being the final version, prior to 1977

Vaderisnothayden said:

Re the scenes not having dubbed or foleyed sound, the Jabba and Han and Biggs on Yavin scenes sure did when they were released as part of the SE and I doubt that sound was recorded with the actors in the 90s. If those scenes had it why not the others? Behind the Magic's versions of them may just have been crappy versions -maybe versions with improved sound did exist and didn't survive or weren't put on the disk for some reason.

Just so you know, not every scene in every movie has ADR.  That's only done when production sound isn't adequate.  It's entirely possible that what George filmed on that day contained sound that was good enough to be included in the film and didn't need to be looped.

Ok direct from starwars.com:

Before he became the fat loathsome slug that we recognize Jabba as in Return of the Jedi, Jabba was referred to as a "Hut," and looked quite different. In the 1977 version of A New Hope, there was to be a confrontation between Han Solo and Jabba that was filmed, but it was never completed to make the final release.

The script establishes Jabba to be a large, repulsive creature, an effect that George Lucas could not realize at the time. He is described as a "fat, slug-like creature with eyes on extended feelers and a huge ugly mouth." The scene was filmed with a stand-in actor, Declan Mulholland. It would be over 20 years later that this scene was finally completed. The Special Edition of A New Hope featured a computer-generated Jabba replacement for Mulholland.

In the Marvel Comics adaptation of Star Wars, the confrontation remains intact, but Jabba is a tall humanoid with a walrus-like face, a scraggly topknot, and a bright uniform. The Marvel artists used a variation of Mosep, one of Jabba's underlings, glimpsed as an extra in the Mos Eisley scenes.

There. the Jabba scenes were never finished and never in any version of the movie. So how could these people have seen it in this extended cut? one urban myth ended.

and about the Biggs footage:

http://www.starwarsholidayspecial.com/swcs/episode4/Biggs.html

accept it. this whole "extended cut" of star wars never existed. It is just an urban myth.

Vaderisnothayden said:

adywan said:

Ok direct from starwars.com:

There. the Jabba scenes were never finished and never in any version of the movie. So how could these people have seen it in this extended cut? one urban myth ended.

and about the Biggs footage:

http://www.starwarsholidayspecial.com/swcs/episode4/Biggs.html

accept it. this whole "extended cut" of star wars never existed. It is just an urban myth.

I know the official account that the Jabba scene wasn't in the final cut because Lucas couldn't get the creature for it, but I don't trust that account. See my first post on this page. I address reasons for questioning that account. It's not that I think the scene was in there, but when there's any reason to doubt the account and people are claiming to have seen it, questions are raised.

Re the Biggs footage, that article only addresses the Tatooine Biggs scene, not the Yavin one which the Star Wars Unauthorized Compendium says was in the film.

Also, the article claims the Biggs Tatooine scene was never shown in public, but on what are they basing that claim? The previous thing you posted implied that scene WAS shown in public at previews and was only deleted after the previews, so I don't know if we can trust the claim that it was never shown in public. Also, they say the sound mix wasn't finished and the scene was only in rough cuts. But if they're wrong about it being shown in public they could be wrong about that. And I don't know, maybe somehow a roough cut could have gotten out.

I don't mean to be a pain in the ass about this, I'm just concerned with what happened and I don't see justification for dismissing these claims outright. The official accounts can be wrong and I don't trust Lucas and co.

Thanks for the info, anyway. :)

You seem to be totally misreading what i posted. The article never said it was shown in public. it was a private preview screening which was for "Hollywood heavies", which was the fox execs and also the guy from Marvel. it clearly states it was in Lucas' private screening room. You need to read that again. No where does it say it was shown to the public.

If you read it the screening in the first quote was a very rough one and it mentioned that the scene with Biggs and Luke friends had been cut. Maybe in this one the other 2 biggs scenes ( where he tells him that's he is going to join the rebels and the Yavin temple scene) were intact. but the second one seems to be a final screening and then the rest of the Biggs scenes were cut. It all fits.

The novel & the Marvel comic had these scenes, including the grappling hook, intact. the illustrated storybook had pictures of the opening tredwell scene and biggs on Tatooine. Then the Radio play brought these scenes to life (apart from the grappling hook). the evidence is all there that its a myth, but it seems to me that even if hard evidence is produced then some people still wouldn't believe it.