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Explaining the shoddy OOT treatment in public — Page 2

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Originally posted by: THX
The D1 master tapes are digital, not analogue. They have higher color resolution than DVD and equal pixel resolution to DVD. They will reproduce better on a modern digital video format like DVD than they did on VHS or Laserdisc. They will be no more prone to compression artifacts (which are inherent to the DVD format) than any other DVD transfer (in fact, compression artifacts will likely be less than they would be on an anamorphic DVD, which would contain more picture information and thus require more compression).


If that ends up being the truth, then I will certainly buy a copy. Otherwise I do not see how or why Lucasfilm could have botched their public relations so badly. They should have simply said they were going to use an older digital master that will allow a transfer at top DVD quality. Instead, they go on about "Laserdiscs" (which have horrible resolution next to DVDs) and otudated video technology to upset everyone.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Are the D1 masters properly telecined? Do you believe the DVDs will have a pulldown flag for 24fps display on progressive devices?
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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THX, correct me if I'm wrong (be gentle ), but I was under the impression that these DVDs were being made from the D2 composite masters, which are not an entirely digital data path (the input/outputs are standard analog composite ports.)

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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I'm not sure if anyone knows for sure if the source used is D1 or D2, do they? Belbecus found an article about the construction of the '93 sound mixes which contained a reference about them using D1 masters, which is what THX is referring to, I believe. But are there also D2 tapes that might be used instead? Wish we had more information about all this.
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Originally posted by: Vigo
Do you have higher resolution scans of this without jpeg compression? I was able to restore the colour completely back again in the ceremony pic (by directly working with the CMYK layers). If you view the CMY layers directly, you can clearly see what layers to how much degree have faded, and try to bring back each layer by hand adjusting brightness/contast in each layer.

Yes I do, do you want me to post it here, or email it to you so that you can play around with it? All I've got on my computer is Adobe Photodeluxe, which allows you to mess with the color balance, saturation and contrast, etc., but not much else. I'd be curious to see what results you can get.

I wish I had a scanner that I could put the piece of 70mm film directly into. The only way I could scan the cel was to hold it up to a window, photograph it, then scan the print (I don't have a digital camera). The cel that's in my signature, I put directly on my flatbed scanner, and you can see how badly that one turned out (way too dark- and blurry).

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Originally posted by: Vigo...But there is a frightening large group of people out there, who honestly think that Star Wars was released in shoddy video quality in theaters, and have absolutely no technical knowledge about video and film formats. Those people keep repeating "But they are in the same quality as seen in theatres back then, so stop whining!". I´m always trying to restrain myself from getting too emotional when i´m confronted with such a large degree of ignorance.
It IS scary how many people think that silent B&W movies always looked scratchy and washed-out, and that color movies from the 30s-70s look "dusty" (as one of the imdb posters put it) and faded. The only reason older films sometimes look bad now is because they have been neglected. When they were new, they were beautiful and pristine- just like any new film we see today.

It's just a lack of knowledge about film history, I guess. Pretty sad.

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Originally posted by: Mielr
Originally posted by: Vigo
Do you have higher resolution scans of this without jpeg compression? I was able to restore the colour completely back again in the ceremony pic (by directly working with the CMYK layers). If you view the CMY layers directly, you can clearly see what layers to how much degree have faded, and try to bring back each layer by hand adjusting brightness/contast in each layer.
Yes I do, do you want me to post it here, or email it to you so that you can play around with it? All I've got on my computer is Adobe Photodeluxe, which allows you to mess with the color balance, saturation and contrast, etc., but not much else. I'd be curious to see what results you can get.


If it´s not too much work, it would be great if you post them here, so that everyone can have a go at "film restauration" as a hobby. If course, I´m going to post my results here as well.


I wish I had a scanner that I could put the piece of 70mm film directly into. The only way I could scan the cel was to hold it up to a window, photograph it, then scan the print (I don't have a digital camera). The cel that's in my signature, I put directly on my flatbed scanner, and you can see how badly that one turned out (way too dark- and blurry).


Yeah, I see, it would have required more light, there was not much information left. The only thing I could have done is to make it look like a night scene.
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Originally posted by: THX
Originally posted by: Vigo
You forget that the 1993 masters were made using now obsolete telecine equipment (a technique to transfer film to analogue video), compared to modern digital film scanners, which yield a much better clarity, contrast and colour rendering than the equipment used in the first half of the nineties. Films are nowadays stored as high resolution digital files on workstations as a standard process, the 1993 master used for the Laserdiscs and sadly for the 2006(!) DVD´s is just an analogue NTSC resolution D1 master tape. Since this tape is more than sufficient for a VHS and laserdisc Transfer (these are also analogue formats, NOT digital), the master will show all its flaws on a modern digital video format like DVD, and introduce new flaws like compression artifatcs which are not present on the Laserdiscs. Bottom line: the master will show all its weaknesses, even on 4:3 TV´s.
The D1 master tapes are digital, not analogue. They have higher color resolution than DVD and equal pixel resolution to DVD. They will reproduce better on a modern digital video format like DVD than they did on VHS or Laserdisc. They will be no more prone to compression artifacts (which are inherent to the DVD format) than any other DVD transfer (in fact, compression artifacts will likely be less than they would be on an anamorphic DVD, which would contain more picture information and thus require more compression).


Whups, I obviously grabbed into the toilet.... Hmmm, where did I hear these would be D1 master tapes... Another source claimed it would be D2 master tapes.
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If we can view Gone with the wind at 16;9 i think ! Then why not Star Wars ?
May the force be wth you .........
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Originally posted by: SW
If we can view Gone with the wind at 16;9 i think ! Then why not Star Wars ?


Wasn't Gone With the Wind filmed in the Academy Ratio of 1.33:1 of 1.37:1, fullscreen? Did widescreen exist back then? Oh, and hte unfortunate answer to your question is that Lucas feels that these are nothing more than rough drafts and that the SEs are the movies, period, and that ergo, the Star Wars trilogy has been released in 16:9. Nevermind that The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring, Alien, The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers, Aliens, The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, Alien 3, Vanishing Point, Alien Resurrection, The Abyss, Terminator 2: Judgment Day, E.T. The Extraterrestrial, Apocalypse Now, Blade Runner, Brazil, Braindead, and The Leopard, to name a few DVDs, all present both version in high-quality.

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”

Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death

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Originally posted by: Vigo Hmmm, where did I hear these would be D1 master tapes... Another source claimed it would be D2 master tapes.

http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/frames.html?http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/THX/LucasFilm-THX.html

NTSC laserdiscs, videocassettes and DVD’s all fall under the mantle of THX Digital Mastering, a program started in 1993 – the first release being The Star Wars Trilogy on laserdisc. In the PAL format, only videocassettes are included, and these on a very small scale. Once again, Thomas Holman headed the project along with LucasFilm video engineer Dave Schnuelle.

The most important part of THX mastering is the video test signal. This is inserted into the space between each video field (the vertical interval) after the film has been converted to D-1 digital video tape. LucasFilm engineers only have an advisory role in this first stage – it is important that the image looks as the director intended. The video test signal allows constant monitoring of the black level, white level, chroma level, chroma noise, phase, frequency response etc., of the video signal throughout subsequent stages of reproduction.

The audio signal, be it Dolby Stereo, Dolby Digital, DTS or even monaural, is constantly assessed with the assistance of engineers from Dolby Laboratories or DTS to ensure consistent and accurate frequency response, phase, azimuth, and level. It must be stressed the THX software does not use a different sound format.

The audio and video elements come together on D-2 digital tape which is then converted to analogue in the case of laserdisc and videocassette (but not DVD) images, this is then used to master the final software. The THX test signal remains even in the final software and is again evaluated by LucasFilm engineers (who have the power to reject the entire inventory) at this stage.



http://www.rebelscum.com/gallery/swdeflaser/image6.asp
...artifacts of the D2 (Digital videotape) intermediate format.


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Originally posted by: SW
If we can view Gone with the wind at 16;9 i think ! Then why not Star Wars ?
You don't want to see GWTW in 16:9 - it would require the image to be cropped. Check out this link to see what happened when they tried to do just that:
Originally posted by: SilverWook
Imagine the outcry if the only version of Gone With the Wind the public could ever see again was this!

Originally posted by: Mike O
Wasn't Gone With the Wind filmed in the Academy Ratio of 1.33:1 of 1.37:1, fullscreen? Did widescreen exist back then?

Yeah, GWTW was shot in full-frame, as was Casablanca, The Wizard of OZ, etc. If it was shot in academy ratio, that's how it should be seen.

There was one widescreen film shot in the 1920s- an early John Wayne film, but I think it was seen as just a novelty at that time .

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Yeah, GWTW was shot in full-frame, as was Casablanca, The Wizard of OZ, etc. If it was shot in academy ratio, that's how it should be seen.


Please don't think me arrogant, but just out of curisity, did widescreen exist prior to the 1950s? Wasn't the first picture filmed in cinemascope The Robe? Understand, I mean no offense! I'm just wondering.

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”

Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death

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Originally posted by: Mike O
Yeah, GWTW was shot in full-frame, as was Casablanca, The Wizard of OZ, etc. If it was shot in academy ratio, that's how it should be seen.

Please don't think me arrogant, but just out of curisity, did widescreen exist prior to the 1950s? Wasn't the first picture filmed in cinemascope The Robe? Understand, I mean no offense! I'm just wondering.
I'm sure there are, aside from the John Wayne film from the 1920s (which I think was the first widescreen movie) there were probably some other attempts at widescreen (I'm not an expert about films from that era, so I don't really know) but I know the great majority of the pre-1950s films were academy ratio.

No offense taken, BTW.

Originally posted by: Red5

The audio and video elements come together on D-2 digital tape which is then converted to analogue in the case of laserdisc and videocassette (but not DVD) images, this is then used to master the final software. The THX test signal remains even in the final software and is again evaluated by LucasFilm engineers (who have the power to reject the entire inventory) at this stage.



http://www.rebelscum.com/gallery/swdeflaser/image6.asp
...artifacts of the D2 (Digital videotape) intermediate format.

Great info- thanks! I have the definitive LD set, but I rarely watch it. I hate all the CAV side breaks, and my last disc of ROTJ has laser rot. I much prefer the CLV "faces" editions- those are from the same masters, I believe (?)


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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi
THX, correct me if I'm wrong (be gentle ), but I was under the impression that these DVDs were being made from the D2 composite masters, which are not an entirely digital data path (the input/outputs are standard analog composite ports.) Judging by Red5's great info above, you could be right. I was just going off what I'd do if I had D1 master tapes, which we know to exist. In some ways it could be good news if there was a D2 intermediate as it could mean that the DVNR was applied between the D1 and D2 stages, which would mean that returning to the D1 could eliminate it.
The audio and video elements come together on D-2 digital tape Bear in mind that this is a general description of the THX process. In the article belbucus posted here, Dave Schnuelle said:
Gary produced an open reel DASH format digital audio master, which was then clone-copied to the D1 video master.
Originally posted by: hairy_hen
I'm not sure if anyone knows for sure if the source used is D1 or D2, do they?
If anyone does know, I'd like to know.

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Gone With the Wind looks amazing on dvd. If anyone says well the laserdisc masters are how the Star Wars films looked in theatres, pop in that dvd or Adventures of Robin Hood. Robin Hood '37 has a great documentary on color film on disc 2. If you want to explain the anamorphic issue to someone like the guy who works at FYE, just show them the anamorphic widescreen guide on the digital bits website.

Take back the trilogy. Execute Order '77

http://www.youtube.com/user/Knightmessenger

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The best place to check to see how well these discs are selling is to check Amazon.com's best selling DVD list, especally during the first week, as that is the time which often indicated how well future sales will do. The OOT discs have been in top ten bestselling list when I search for Star Wars too. It seems that even with the treatment they are getting, many people prefer these to the SEs. Interesting. I wonder what will happen if they sell well. If they sell this well when people are threatening to boycott them, imagine how well they would sell if they were restored. I hope.

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”

Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death

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If they were sold in a box set and anamorphic, they would be flying off the shelves. I think they will still sell like crazy because although they "won't be much better than what we have," there's many more people who don't have them at all.

Take back the trilogy. Execute Order '77

http://www.youtube.com/user/Knightmessenger

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Originally posted by: Knightmessenger
If they were sold in a box set and anamorphic, they would be flying off the shelves. I think they will still sell like crazy because although they "won't be much better than what we have," there's many more people who don't have them at all.


In other words, people might prefer a low-quality copy of the OOT to a high-quality copy of the SEs. Interesting indeed.

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”

Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death

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I think what he meant is that many people don't have DVD's of the OOT yet, and are still sticking with thier official tapes, not wanting to get bootlegs.
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Originally posted by: Vigo

Claim: We should be grateful that Lucas is doing his fans a favour and release the OOT, no matter what quality comes out. The Goodwill counts.

Answer: It was not Lucas Goodwill to bring us the OOT. It was the continuing protests of fans and the numerous attempts from fans to preserve the OOT on DVD´s themselves using VHS or Laserdisc sources which changed his mind. The primary aim for this DVD release is to destroy the commercial market for the fan made preservations, which were sold by bootleggers for very high prices on Ebay. Keep that in mind if you try to bring on this "George is so good, be grateful!" argument, since it is only an understandable decision made by a business man. If George would really listen to his fans, and understand their dedication and love for his films, he would have released the OOT in proper DVD quality, rather than just Laserdisc transfers which hardly surpass the fan preservations (since they come from the same source). Further he is forcing OOT fans to buy the 2004 SE with the OOT and charges a lot of money for this release.

One of the points I've continually made is that this is not a "gift" from Lucasfilm, it is a product. If Lucas were giving this to all customers who bought the 2004 or 2005 sets, that would be one thing. But it is a product that we are being asked to pay our hard-earned money for. Because of that, we have every right to expect industry standard quality. Feel free to use this point.
I am fluent in over six million forms of procrastination.
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Mike O and Darth Evil are both correct. Another thing is that many people only have them on vhs in pan & scan but what I actually meant, my "original vision," was for people who never had or even saw the original movies like me. I think there are a lot of younger people who actually got into Star Wars with the prequels that want to see where it all began. How can you not want the orginal versions after watching "Empire of Dreams?"
I had only seen parts of the trilogy on tv until 2004. Our freshmen seminar had to watch "Star Wars," as an example of something influenced by Japanese culture. I saw the 97 vhs tape but wasn't that impressed. Still, I asked for and got the new trilogy dvd set for Christmas. I was excited to see either version in what had been promoted as state of the art dvd quality. Watching the movies made me wonder "is that the best they can do, is that how they are supposed to look?" The movies felt soulless and didn't look natural but "Empire of Dreams" was great. I had no idea how influential and important Star Wars was which made me want to see that film from 1977.
Finding out how badly screwed up the dvd's were made me want to see the originals even more. When I rented the '95 tapes from my school library, I was amazed at how much better they looked, especially the color. I think when most people see both versions on the upcoming dvd's, they will like the original version better for two reasons. Many of the changes have greatly made the films worse and the horrible color on for 2004 sucks out whatever charm and soul the films had remaining after '97.

Take back the trilogy. Execute Order '77

http://www.youtube.com/user/Knightmessenger