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Expecting too much of George Lucas? — Page 3

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Originally posted by: Mike O
I shudder to think what you'd say about Jedi or (gulp) the PT.

I've seen Jedi twice. It was bad both times.
As far as the prequels go, I've seen only Phantom. Went to a matinee the week it was released. That's 6 bucks I wish I had back.

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Originally posted by:Anchorhead
Gaffer speaks the truth.
I’m not a fan of Empire. Too contrived, too slick. Star Wars was a complete story. A reluctant bystander gets drawn into a battle against an evil lord and with the help of a mentor and an unwilling pair of shady characters, he rescues the princess and defeats the bad guys. It’s an outer space fairy tale, and it worked very well.

No more of the story needed to be told. Doing so started the process of shrinking the universe and weakening the story. The characters in Star Wars aren’t related to each other and it’s just by chance that their paths cross. The adventure they all go on because of the chain of events that brought them all together is what makes the movie so big and magical. Empire is none of those things.

In fact, I haven’t seen Empire in about 7 or 8 years and I can’t imagine I’ll bother with it again.

Star Wars is the movie that awed me as a boy. It’s the only one I’m interested in.


I totally agree with you about the Original SW, there is nothing that matches it. I can always watch that movie in reference to how it was presented in 1977, and don't think about the stuff after it, and the stuff before it. I can say because I saw it in 1977, I am not tainted by the constant story changes by Lucas which has really denegrated it to the younger generation fans who really miss the point of the whole story. This movie has been my favorite movie of ALL TIME since 1977, so it resonates with me the same way.

But I still enjoy the other SW movies, I just look at them a different way. I watch SW '77 as that standalone movie about good vs evil and I still love the ending when they get their medals, it is the ultimate goosebump moment. I then watch ESB & ROTJ as the story of Luke vs Vader to the backdrop of the Rebels vs Empire conflict. They are not sequels to SW '77, just another story that has to be watched in the context that the relationship of Vader/Luke was changed in 1980.

I then watch the PT as just a backstory of ObiWan/Anakin to the backdrop to how the Empire came to power, but in no means does this lead well into Episode IV, cause it is too jarring. I can enjoy all 6 SW movies, of course I enjoy SW '77 more than anything, and of course I enjoy the OT more than the PT. But for anyone who was there in 1977, nothing beats The Original Star Wars, and it aint cause of nostalgia. I probably watch The Original SW about 10-15 times a year and never get sick of it.

Good talk here guys, this is why I will always love this site, you can talk old SW talk without someone bringing up some quote from Lucas during the PT that totally contradicts the OT movies.

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Originally posted by: CO I can always watch that movie in reference to how it was presented in 1977, and don't think about the stuff after it, and the stuff before it. I can say because I saw it in 1977, I am not tainted by the constant story changes by Lucas

I'm with you, man. Although, for me I’m not bothered by the stuff before it because there isn’t anything before it. Everything else came after - and feels it. Some of it much more so. I'm not tainted by the changes he made to it either because I've not seen any of them. I'd read ahead of time about the SE changes to the story and the characters, the added scenes, the CGI characters, etc and knew it wasn't for me. I didn't want to have to be bothered with trying to unsee that stuff.

In fact, that led to how I discovered you guys in the first place. Several years after the SEs came out, I decided it was time to secure a non-tape copy of Star Wars, something more durable than what I’d been watching. I posted in the off-topic areas of the other boards I'm on (all motorcycle related) and someone in the same state had the LDs from 1994. We decided on a price and a meeting place - I didn’t want anything to happen to them using UPS or FEDEX.

We met at the arranged place (a restaurant), we ate, drank and talked Star Wars and motorcycles for about an hour and then went our separate ways. After I got home, I started looking on the internet for someone that could transfer Star Wars from LD to DVD. After a few dead ends, I stumbled onto this site and was relieved to see I wasn’t the only person who still preferred the original version.

Anyway, it was the SEs, even though I’ve never seen them, that led me here. There’s some good people here – smart, articulate, quick witted, and some very interesting reading. Links to interviews, articles, etc. Good stuff.


Besides, I may be one of the few people old enough to get Gaffer Tape's screen name. (She was amazingly beautiful when she was young)
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Well, I am much relieved and heartened by the reaction ... surprising to me ... of not being villified, burned at the stake, or otherwise shunned for my unorthodox Star Wars preferences.

Most of the Star Wars fans I know in real life, and there are lots of them ... even the ones who saw the original in '77 ... prefer Empire uber allis.


While I don't want to get all into it now, in relation to a post above, I want to say one thing about Empire that bugs me (out of, oh, 53 things total). I don't think Darth Vader works well as a villain without a human foil - be it Governor Tarkin in SW or Emperor Palpatine in RotJ. He may have the wonderful voice of James Earl, but he's still doing pantomime behind a mask. Without use of the human face, the ability to give a performance is severely stunted, imo. I also think he works better as the classic knee-breaker for the main villain (as is his role in the other two O.T. films) and that his Empire style of killing subordinates right and left works well as a running joke, but hardly makes him a scary villain (again, imho).


Sorry ... enough about Empire. I could go on all day.


I like many things about each of the O.T. films, but - yeah - I'm basically a Star Wars Star Wars fan.

Originally posted by CO
I can always watch that movie in reference to how it was presented in 1977, and don't think about the stuff after it, and the stuff before it. I can say because I saw it in 1977, I am not tainted by the constant story changes by Lucas which has really denegrated it to the younger generation fans who really miss the point of the whole story.

It sure would be a whole lot easier for me to watch Star Wars as a standalone, with no reference to anything but how it was presented in 1977 .... if the movie hadn't been changed to start off with "Episode IV - A New Hope." Substandard or not, bogusly re-created or not, I'm looking forward to the September release of the DVD version without the sub-title linking it to a later series of films.


I've stuck with this fandom because I've enjoyed, to greater or lesser extent, most of the subsequent films*. But mostly because my fandom has been reinvigorated and renewed by the insane line-ups for the Hollywood premiers - - the unbelievable fun and the very cool friendships developed. The movies may be uneven, but the Star Wars fans I've met and befriended have been remarkably great peeps.






* ok, except for Revenge of the Sith which I loathe with all my soul. (Its one good effect being to make me look more kindly upon The Phantom Menace in comparison.)
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I agree with whats being said about Star Wars, to me it is still a magical film even after all these years and works great as the standalone film it was/is with a beginning and an end, and am a bigger fan of this film than any of the other five as well, but at the same time not really disliking any of the others.

I watch them all now as standalone films, and have no real interest in or the time to get into of all this "Darth Vader's story" bit that Star Wars is now supposed to be about, I am at point now where if I feel like being entertained for 2 hrs and fancy abit of SW, I will stick one in, and alot of time it will be the original......
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Originally posted by: CO
Hating Lucas for making an average PT, shame on the fans. Hating Lucas for making an average ROTJ, shame on the fans. Hating Lucas for putting out crap transfers for the O-OT, I will agree on that.

You made a lot of good points in your post, CO, and while we should never hate Lucas for making mistakes, I do want to clarify that Lucas didn’t merely give us an “average” prequel trilogy. It was bad enough to make any sane person cringe. To even make that fact worse, it was filled with contradictions and other concepts that turned the meaning of the original trilogy on its head. I now believe those problems were the mistakes of a messy mind, but very, very big mistakes.

In terms of the special editions I think George has some questions to answer, however. The 1997 special editions made the originals average (which was a travesty on its own), and the 2004 special editions went further and actually ruined the originals. While still not worthy of hatred, George should be heavily criticized as a person over these moves. Even worse is the way he prevents the original form of the movies from ever being seen and that’s an unforgivable course of action so long as he decides to stick to it.


Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
Well, I for one, usually think of Luke and Han getting their medals, and that's my closure. I like SW'77 soooo much more than any of the others that I often consider it a standalone film. The fact that Lucas made up the main story of the saga (Vader being Luke's father) after the first film, and conflicting with dialogue (and thus the audience's truth) as presented in the first film, I have a pretty easy time thinking of the sequels as non-canon offshoots ... despite their pedigree.

I happen to think the emotional thrust of Star Wars is messed with if Princess Leia is Luke Skywalker's sister. She's not. Not in that film. And I like avenging his father as Luke's motivation for hating Darth Vader. That's the plot I fell in love with, as did millions around the world. In SW'77, Leia is the hero's legitimate love interest, and the hero's father was betrayed and murdered by Darth Vader, a pupil of the hero's mentor.


I totally understand your point of the contradicting dialogue between Empire and the first film. I never understood that as a child at all. Also, I totally agree that the original Star Wars is a better film (as a standalone accomplishment) and I can at least respect your opinion that making Vader into Luke’s father was a bad decision (though I do disagree).

The original Star Wars (which I often feel dirty calling “Episode 4” or “ANH”) is and always was my favorite movie of all time, but I do believe, as standalone films, that Empire managed to improve upon the Star Wars narrative to a notable degree. Despite not being as meaningful a film on it’s own as Star Wars was and continues to be, I believe that Empire is still a better film considering everything overall (the “saga” perspective).

In terms of the clear alterations to the story, every story changes at some point. A story’s nature changing between different installments isn’t a crime. The important part is to decide if we like what we see. We can judge the quality of a story at the time it changes and whether we still like it or not. In that sense, I believe the invention of Vader being Luke’s father in Empire was a brilliant decision and addition to the Star Wars story. Sure, it didn’t work with the previously delivered dialogue in the original film, but I always logically knew there could be many explanations for what Ben said that would keep his statements truthful. Unfortunately, Jedi let us down in regard to such an explanation.

Return of the Jedi added the idea that Leia had been Luke’s sister the whole time (which even as a kid made me think WTF?), but I could still take that concept and not let it ruin the story for me. Jedi wasn’t nearly as good as the two preceding films either, but it still had the great theme of self-sacrifice for our heroes and it displayed the great value of redemption which made the film great to me. When Luke turned himself in to face the Emperor and when the Rebels decided to stick around and possibly face certain doom I’m always on the edge of my seat. When Luke is tempted by the dark side in Jedi it also gives me goose bumps. Lastly, Luke reaching out to Vader by taking a stand is perhaps the best climax Star Wars could have had. So, with all of that in mind, I still consider Return of the Jedi to be a great film, just not on the same level as the two that came before.


Lastly, about Darth Vader, I highly dislike the idea of him being the central focus of the “saga.” It’s insulting to the very purpose of the original story of Star Wars. Even in Empire and Jedi, with his increased focus, he was never the main character and served more as a means to apply pressure to the heroes. That’s why I don’t believe the prequel trilogy should have focused much on Vader if at all. But I didn’t make those decision . . . a certain someone else did . . . .

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Originally posted by: TiptupThe original Star Wars (which I often feel dirty calling “Episode 4” or “ANH”) is and always was my favorite movie of all time, but I do believe, as standalone films, that Empire managed to improve upon the Star Wars narrative to a notable degree. Despite not being as meaningful a film on it’s own as Star Wars was and continues to be, I believe that Empire is still a better film considering everything overall (the “saga” perspective).


As part of the saga, I've come to appreciate Empire a bit, but I find it totally unworkable as its own single film. It's episodic rather than linear, it's dark in tone and monochromatic visually, and it's self-referencial to its own story rather than universally referencial to classic myth and retro-moviedom. I highly doubt the style of The Empire Strikes Back would have struck nearly the universal chord of belovedness that greeted Star Wars had the stylistic order of the two films been reversed.

With the tone and color pallette returned to brightness for the final installment, I came to somewhat appreciate the middle-episode darkness and somberness of Empire ... but my initial poor reaction to the film has never quite left me (and I have many other, more specific, problems with it still).


Say what you will about the "Luke I am your father" reveal and major plot turning-point ... it never got the respect of, say, M. Night's The Sixth Sense. While there seemed to an unspoken and universally obeyed compact not to reveal the truth about Bruce Willis in that film, the word that Darth Vader was Luke's father was gushed by everyone, everywhere within moments of the film's release.

And despite the obvious linguistic clue in the name Darth Vader, I never liked making sweet old Obi-Wan Kenobi out to be liar. It just never sat well with me. And once Lucas threw in the kitchen sink of making Leia part of the family, too ... well the whole thing just got too Dickensianly juevenile for me to swallow. (You can imagine how well I took to C3PO being created by Anakin Skywalker. I retch as I type the words.)




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Whoever this lucas is isn't the same guy who discussed Story > Sfx on the RotJ supplementals. I think at it's core one problem with the prequels was that we were given great epic, amazing trailers, completely misrepresenting the final film (except rots. by then we knew better.) God, just look at how beautifully done those were compared to the mediocre products that came after those trailers. If only the care put in to crafting those mini masterpieces was put into the editing and shaping the story in the films properly without a lot of unnecessary jarjar or whatever, i just know, they'd have been a decent set of films even if they weren't all perfect.

This thought just popped into my head and maybe it's off topic but I just have the urge to say it. What I think the PT's meant for the ot is an overall dissapointment factor for the whole saga. Years back during the days of episode 2 some over on a board I visited were discussing how star wars would be viewed when all the movies were finished, and the saga was completed. Well here we are... and I don't think it looks good. I've read some lump the Ot with the PT in quality, writing off the entire thing as kiddie crap and as a serious fan of the OT that's a kick in the nuts for me to see that because of he lack of quality lucas has decided, to intentionally or not, deliver has had a negative impact on star wars' entire public perception. That's just unforgivable in my eyes. He just doesn't care. I used to believe lucas was the most passionate about his universe, his characters, his story, but it's all seemingly a big business deal more than anything else. I'm seriously going to die of a broken heart after wasting all that time and money on his mediocre movies.

Expecting too much... I was 12 when episode 1 came out. I hated jar jar, but gave the rest a free pass. "he was just rusty," I told myself. it's reasonable. He hadn't directed in a loooooong time. "the next would be much better." Compared to the crap of the first, it was, but that's not putting it on any high ground. here it became more clear to me as I got older that to lucas nothing in star wars was sacred. It was all a joke now. From cameo roles for Samuel Jackson, to N'sync, jar jar, to making yoda and all the jedi completely retarded, he just didn't care about doing something timeless and great. I really can't believe some I've known in the past at other boards have dedicated years to defending those movies. I forget their name, but wow trust me there are people who do this and seem to have as much respect for the originals as lucas himself, while viewing jar jar as a great addition. for the sake of catharsis if nothing else, I'll say what a day it was on TFn when it was announced jar jar was practically not even in the last film of a saga he started in as one of the main characters. The thread started to point out how lucas finally recognized his mistake or whatever it was, was full of "Jar jar was meant to not be in the last film." and it just knocked me out to read how delusional some "fans" choose to be. I... I died of a broken heart that day.




He big in nothing important in good elephant.

"Miss you, I will, Original Trilogy..."

"Your midichlorians are weak, Old man." -Darth Vader 2007 super deluxe extra special dipped in chocolate sauce edition.

http://prequelsstink.ytmnd.com/
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Originally posted by:Tiptup
In terms of the clear alterations to the story, every story changes at some point. A story’s nature changing between different installments isn’t a crime. The important part is to decide if we like what we see. We can judge the quality of a story at the time it changes and whether we still like it or not. In that sense, I believe the invention of Vader being Luke’s father in Empire was a brilliant decision and addition to the Star Wars story. Sure, it didn’t work with the previously delivered dialogue in the original film, but I always logically knew there could be many explanations for what Ben said that would keep his statements truthful. Unfortunately, Jedi let us down in regard to such an explanation.

Return of the Jedi added the idea that Leia had been Luke’s sister the whole time (which even as a kid made me think WTF?), but I could still take that concept and not let it ruin the story for me. Jedi wasn’t nearly as good as the two preceding films either, but it still had the great theme of self-sacrifice for our heroes and it displayed the great value of redemption which made the film great to me. When Luke turned himself in to face the Emperor and when the Rebels decided to stick around and possibly face certain doom I’m always on the edge of my seat. When Luke is tempted by the dark side in Jedi it also gives me goose bumps. Lastly, Luke reaching out to Vader by taking a stand is perhaps the best climax Star Wars could have had. So, with all of that in mind, I still consider Return of the Jedi to be a great film, just not on the same level as the two that came before.


Lastly, about Darth Vader, I highly dislike the idea of him being the central focus of the “saga.” It’s insulting to the very purpose of the original story of Star Wars. Even in Empire and Jedi, with his increased focus, he was never the main character and served more as a means to apply pressure to the heroes. That’s why I don’t believe the prequel trilogy should have focused much on Vader if at all. But I didn’t make those decision . . . a certain someone else did . . . .



Those are very good points, and as a trilogy of 4-6, the story works fine with me. I love the fact that SW is a standalone movie, but in the same respect I have no problem that ESB & ROTJ really work as one movie in that respect.

The OT is great cause Lucas was making them on the fly, and he put everything into each movie to make them as great as possible. With the PT, he knew ROTS would be plot point heavy, so TPM & AOTC kinda leave you with that anticlimatic feeling before ROTS. In a sense, I think the only way to enjoy the PT is to watch all 3 movies in a row in one sitting. As for the OT, they are better individual films cause Lucas was not leaving anything out for the overall trilogy, and that is why ROTJ is the worst of the three, cause Lucas was out of ideas by that point.

If Lucas knew he would have been making a trilogy in 1977, he would have probably taken out the whole death star space battle and saved that for ROTJ, and the ending of SW would have just been rescuing the princess from the Death Star, and getting out alive.....to be continued..... To me, that would make The Original SW very anticlimatic, and it would probably fit better when watching the trilogy overall, it would take away from each individual movie.

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While still not worthy of hatred, George should be heavily criticized as a person over these moves.

I'm more inclined to criticize the actions than the man.

. Even worse is the way he prevents the original form of the movies from ever being seen and that’s an unforgivable course of action so long as he decides to stick to it.

That is crititicism he deserves.

Besides, I may be one of the few people old enough to get Gaffer Tape's screen name. (She was amazingly beautiful when she was young)


Whom?

As part of the saga, I've come to appreciate Empire a bit, but I find it totally unworkable as its own single film.


Yes, but that's the whole point. ESB gets what it is: a part of the whole. Part of the problem with is that ROTJ doesn't entirely lead it to a satifyng concllusion ins many peoples's eyes, which probably weakens ESB. ESB is superbly crafted, saga or not, which, while I enjoy the PT, is not a complement that I can give it.

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”

Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death

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Originally posted by: Mike O
Besides, I may be one of the few people old enough to get Gaffer Tape's screen name. (She was amazingly beautiful when she was young)


Whom?


http://www.carriefisher.com/images/photos/CF_pose01.jpg
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Originally posted by: Mike O
Besides, I may be one of the few people old enough to get Gaffer Tape's screen name. (She was amazingly beautiful when she was young)


Whom?


If by whom, you're referring to Gaffer Tape, that's me, dude. You know, we've talked some. If by whom, you're referring to "she", Anchorhead is talking about Carrie Fisher. My user name, avatar, and signature all go together and are referring to the same story. First off, I want to give Anchorhead thanks for mentioning and complimenting me. Second, I want to say that I'm not old enough to really get it. I'm only 20, so I obviously wasn't around when Star Wars first came out. I actually read this story in an issue of Newsweek that came out in 1999. It was an article written by Carrie Fisher entitled "Postcards from the Edge of the Galaxy" as a spoof on her book. And it told the story of how she was never allowed to wear underwear with her costume because there was apparently no lingerie in space. So in scenes when she had to run, her breasts were bound with gaffer tape. In addition, she xeroxed her breasts and handed them out to the entire crew and joked about holding a raffle to see who could get to rip the tape off at the end of each day of shooting.

On topic, though...

I wish I hadn't missed all this stuff because most of what I've wanted to say has already been said, and there's so much to respond to that I don't know if I can cover all that's left that I want to. So I'll do the best I can to contribute. I've always stated that Empire is my favorite Star Wars movie. Even when I first saw it at 9, I loved the darker plot, I loved the advancement of the story, I loved the lightsaber fight. Everything about it was just perfect. And I still consider it my favorite with Return sort of dragging as the tail end. Even though I've now long accepted that George didn't have the first trilogy planned out at all like he's always claimed, it still works. Considering the continuity flaws in the prequels, Obi-Wan's explanations in the original were golden. I've always thought it was a good job of tying it together. Ben wasn't lying, per se, he was just sparing Luke's feelings. The reveal is always fun and helped the story of Empire certainly. But I definitely get where you guys are coming from, and I enjoy Star Wars as a standalone movie.

But Leia being Luke's sister? Even at my original viewings, I never really took to that. I mean, Luke just picks it out of thin air. "Yes, you have a sister. She's anonymous. She could be any girl in the galaxy, you know." "Wait! It must be Leia, because she's the only girl that I know, and the only girl in these movies!" "Damn. I didn't do a good job with that one." Plus, it's a plot point that seems to exist for no reason! There is such a huge setup for this, starting with the previous movie. "There is another." In the next movie, "There is another Skywalker." I mean, you would think that they were setting up for something big. A new quest for Luke. A savior to Luke. Something. The only payoffs are the emotional scene between Luke and Leia and to tidily tie up the love triangle that George had apparently gotten bored with. But Leia doesn't really do anything in terms of fulfilling some kind of destiny as "the other", does she? She has no screen time with Vader or The Emperor in that entire movie! I suppose I'm supposed to think the payoff is when Vader plucks the information from Luke's head and uses it to get Luke to attack him, but would it have made any difference if Leia hadn't been his sister?! We already know that Luke deeply cares for her, so why did she need to be his sister?

Sorry, I could go on and on with how much that irks me.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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I just wanna say, don't think you have to have seen the original SW in the theaters in '77 to love it as a standalone movie. I'm only 17, and SW was the first movie of the trilogy I ever saw, and it's still the one I love the most. I never tire of it.

http://i.imgur.com/7N84TM8.jpg

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If by whom, you're referring to Gaffer Tape, that's me, dude. You know, we've talked some.


I know. You're a nice guy. I was referring to the story. Now I know. Thank you.

“What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one.”

Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death

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Not a problem. Glad you enjoyed it. I didn't think you were talking about me, but I couldn't resist having a little fun with it. Besides, I wanted to cover all my bases just in case. ^_^

And thanks for thinking I'm a nice guy.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
As part of the saga, I've come to appreciate Empire a bit, but I find it totally unworkable as its own single film. It's episodic rather than linear, it's dark in tone and monochromatic visually, and it's self-referencial to its own story rather than universally referencial to classic myth and retro-moviedom. I highly doubt the style of The Empire Strikes Back would have struck nearly the universal chord of belovedness that greeted Star Wars had the stylistic order of the two films been reversed.

I agree again. It’s a film that heavily relies upon what came before. It assumed that the people who came to see the movie saw the first and decided to delve into new territory. It was more emotional. Again, all three tied together, they’re all great films to me, with Empire the most moving. Take them apart on the other hand and Star Wars stands in a league of its own.


Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
And despite the obvious linguistic clue in the name Darth Vader, I never liked making sweet old Obi-Wan Kenobi out to be liar.

Yeah, I always figured there was something special about the way Obiwan stated the Darth Vader name there, but from the beginning I always had trouble believing they ever intended him to be Luke's father in the beginning. (I had memorized all the lines from the original movie by the time I saw Empire and could take it all in.) Now, years later, I'm sure the father relationship was invented on the spot for Empire. Still, all in all, I think the development was worth it in terms of continuing the Star Wars story beyond the first movie. And seriously, they didn’t have to make Ben so sneaky if they had done it right. Instead he likes twisting words to match his symbolism. Yet I suppose even that is better than what we have now with the PT, considering how Ben has become a psychotic liar.


Originally posted by: Wesyeed
I think at it's core one problem with the prequels was that we were given great epic, amazing trailers, completely misrepresenting the final film (except rots. by then we knew better.) God, just look at how beautifully done those were compared to the mediocre products that came after those trailers. If only the care put in to crafting those mini masterpieces was put into the editing and shaping the story in the films properly without a lot of unnecessary jarjar or whatever, i just know, they'd have been a decent set of films even if they weren't all perfect.

I know! The trailers were so magnificent! I have to admit that I was incredibly looking forward to RotS based on its promo. Same thing went for AotC and TPM. They were all a let down compared to the expectations.

Heh, this reminds me, RotS ruined one of the best lines in RotS (“You were chosen one!”) by putting it into the trailer where it seemed overly cheesy. In the film it was actually very moving and I got misty eyed, but so much of its impact was ruined by the trailer.


Originally posted by: Wesyeed
Expecting too much... I was 12 when episode 1 came out. I hated jar jar, but gave the rest a free pass. "he was just rusty," I told myself. it's reasonable. He hadn't directed in a loooooong time. "the next would be much better." Compared to the crap of the first, it was, but that's not putting it on any high ground. here it became more clear to me as I got older that to lucas nothing in star wars was sacred. It was all a joke now.


Yeah, clearly Lucas does not take the series seriously anymore. You can kind of see that in Jedi as he began making the story shallower. I can kind of envision George, during the creation of Empire’s story thinking, “Yeah, it will be so cool to make this an epic saga with the earliest parts before the first film!” Then, 15 years later, I see him saying “Who’s idea was this saga thing anyway? I have no idea how to structure these dumb stories! Yet, all those crazy fans keep bugging me to make the earlier episodes. Oh well, at least I can make more money!”


Originally posted by: CO
The OT is great cause Lucas was making them on the fly, and he put everything into each movie to make them as great as possible. With the PT, he knew ROTS would be plot point heavy, so TPM & AOTC kinda leave you with that anticlimatic feeling before ROTS. In a sense, I think the only way to enjoy the PT is to watch all 3 movies in a row in one sitting. As for the OT, they are better individual films cause Lucas was not leaving anything out for the overall trilogy, and that is why ROTJ is the worst of the three, cause Lucas was out of ideas by that point.

If Lucas knew he would have been making a trilogy in 1977, he would have probably taken out the whole death star space battle and saved that for ROTJ, and the ending of SW would have just been rescuing the princess from the Death Star, and getting out alive.....to be continued..... To me, that would make The Original SW very anticlimatic, and it would probably fit better when watching the trilogy overall, it would take away from each individual movie.


I never thought of it that way. They sort of are a reverse image in terms of how the saga affected their quality.

Hmm, perhaps if each Star Wars film, regardless of overlapping characters or themes, had been created with the idea of being a standalone adventure, the series would have benefited greatly. Instead of being a big, illogically constructed saga, it would have been a series of individual tales in the same universe, along the lines of Frank Miller’s Sin City comic-novels (which are great). Though, I do like the rigid nature of a saga over individual stories since it means less quantity and more quality usually.


Originally posted by: Gaffer Tape
Plus, it's a plot point that seems to exist for no reason! There is such a huge setup for this, starting with the previous movie. "There is another." In the next movie, "There is another Skywalker." I mean, you would think that they were setting up for something big. A new quest for Luke. A savior to Luke. Something.


Yeah, they really seemed to imply that Leia was sensitive to the force in the middle movie and talked about another . . . but did they have to make her family? The story such a surreal turn there unless you believe the force fated them to be reunited, but no such explanation was provided in Jedi.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Originally posted by: Tiptup
Hmm, perhaps if each Star Wars film, regardless of overlapping characters or themes, had been created with the idea of being a standalone adventure, the series would have benefited greatly. Instead of being a big, illogically constructed saga, it would have been a series of individual tales in the same universe, along the lines of Frank Miller’s Sin City comic-novels (which are great). Though, I do like the rigid nature of a saga over individual stories since it means less quantity and more quality usually.
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That is the double edge sword now is that if you look at the saga 1-6, you have to compare the movies, they have to flow seamlessly, and that is why it is so jarring for many.

Lucas should have constructed the saga as all standalone movies with the bigger picture as the theme for each movie (good vs evil or rebublic vs empire, or rebels vs empire)

The biggest problem with TPM & AOTC is you are waiting for the true story, Anakins turn in ROTS, and it makes these movies inferior from a plot point point of view. The problem with the overall saga now is that he focused on the life of Anakin Skywalker, and 6 movies is just a bit too much for that, because it has too much filller time involved.

If Lucas constructed three movies about Padme, Anakin, and Obiwan as 3 different adventures with the main theme in mind that the republic is crumbling and the empire is taking power, he could have done so much more interesting things. TPM is littered with so much pointless stuff cause Anakin is ten years old, and can't really do anything yet. He can't be this powerful jedi, he can't fall in love, and he can't start talking to Palpatine yet, so it leaves the whole movie with the star just being 10 years old and being a cute kid. I could have read that in SW Insider, now get to the real story.

In a sense, the OT is 2 different stories, that are set upon the backdrop of rebels vs empire. SW '77 is a standalone movie, and ESB & ROTJ are a 2 part movie that have totally different themes, but still are about rebels vs empire. Where ROTJ fails is that it has to tie up too many things from ESB and that is where the whole focus of the movie gets lost. They have to rescue Han, Luke has to go back to Dagobah, and he has to confront Vader, all interesting stuff, but there were so many more adventures Lucas could have done with our three heroes, instead of just making it about the redemption of Darth Vader. To me, that whole plot point limited the saga to just one story, and made everything in Lucas's mind, minor and not as necessary to show, so he leaves the Clone Wars to the cartoons, the birth of the Rebellion to the deleted scenes, and the Force Ghost dialogue with QuiGon/Yoda to the ROTS Novel.

I would have loved to have 6-9 SW movies as just individual standalone movies with the basic macro story in mind, good vs evil, and that is what was so great about the Original SW. Now I am not naive to think they would all be as great as SW in 1977, cause it is tough to keep churning out classic movies, but I wouldn't compare them like I do now, cause they wouldn't be one continuous story, they would just be a bunch of different stories in the same universe with the same characters.
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Originally posted by: Knightmessenger
Exactly why was there no lingerie in space? What is the picture of Carrie Fisher from?


In order to prevent Carrie Fisher's breasts from bouncing they were taped down with gaffers tape (basically like duct tape). She is famous for remarking of the unusual practice "breasts dont bounce in space" or something similar.
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...my Mom babysat Carrie Fisher when she was an infant, and she threw up on my Mom's sweater.

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Ooh, Princess Leia puke! I wonder how much someone would pay for that on eBay?!

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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LOL! I think she still has the sweater, but it was dry-cleaned, unfortunately.

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To somewhat retract a previous statement, I want to talk more about Obi-Wan's explanation in Jedi about Luke's father. I said before I don't mind the explanation about why he covered it up. But when I first watched it at age 9, and he said, "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view," I immediately thought, "They're setting up something." But just like the Leia as Luke's sister thing, nothing ever came of it, and I was quite disappointed. I'm not sure how differing points of view would have fit into the story, but the exact wording of the line did make it seem like it would be brought up again later on.

Am I the only person who thought this?

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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I've never thought of that before- but that's a very good observation. Then there's the "from a certain point of view" line in Jedi, which lines up pretty well.

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Wait, I think I'm confused. The line you mentioned is the preceding line to the one I mentioned, so I'm not quite sure where you're going with that. Sorry, but I could use some clarification.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.