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Estimating the original colors of the original Star Wars trilogy — Page 8

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CatBus said:

Keep in mind, bulb matching is a thing. This is a great way to get the color on the print, but the color on the screen is the color on the print combined with whatever color bias the projector bulb has. So for a seventies bulb, we’re probably talking a little yellower. Not to diminish the importance of this in any way–this will be extraordinarily helpful, but maybe not the final word.

From what I understand, this could relatively easily be incorporated into DrDre’s algorithm. You would need to describe the light used to scan a particular print and the light emitted by a bulb what was in common use when said print had its run in theaters. Of course the accuracy of the final result would depend on how accurate data you fed to the algorithm.

Fanres - fan restoration forum: https://forum.fanres.com/

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The color effect of a bulb can be incorporated in a LUT that describes the effect of the bulb.

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The results are incredible! Thanks so much!
Definitely putting some scenes into my personal ideal Star Wars 😃
The dark scenes go very dark, is that a feature of the early part of the process or is my screen off whack?

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AllAboutThatSpace said:

The results are incredible! Thanks so much!
Definitely putting some scenes into my personal ideal Star Wars 😃
The dark scenes go very dark, is that a feature of the early part of the process or is my screen off whack?

No, the print/scan is the main issue. This is why Team -1 used replacement shots for those. Hopefully the new scan by poita will be able to get some more detail from those scenes. I did not adjust the brightness of the original scan, so a gamma correction would probably improve the final result, but I’m hoping that won’t be necessary with the new scan.

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I am addicted. I want the entire movie to look like that (with a small adjustment to brighten the mid tones). With just that it would be the perfect grindhouse version.

You are a master, DrDre. Thank you.

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Feallan said:

CatBus said:

Keep in mind, bulb matching is a thing. This is a great way to get the color on the print, but the color on the screen is the color on the print combined with whatever color bias the projector bulb has. So for a seventies bulb, we’re probably talking a little yellower. Not to diminish the importance of this in any way–this will be extraordinarily helpful, but maybe not the final word.

From what I understand, this could relatively easily be incorporated into DrDre’s algorithm. You would need to describe the light used to scan a particular print and the light emitted by a bulb what was in common use when said print had its run in theaters. Of course the accuracy of the final result would depend on how accurate data you fed to the algorithm.

It’s not that it can’t be done, but then you lose the “objectivity” which is part of the draw of DrDre’s method. Choosing the bulb LUT is both subjective (which bulb to choose?) and prone to error. I like what he’s doing, but I see this as more of an initial color correction than a final one, which is really where my comment was headed. You need the objective color correction as a base correction – in fact it’s critical for it to be as objective as possible, and this seems to be doing that – but that doesn’t eliminate the need for subjective corrections afterward.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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CatBus said:

Feallan said:

CatBus said:

Keep in mind, bulb matching is a thing. This is a great way to get the color on the print, but the color on the screen is the color on the print combined with whatever color bias the projector bulb has. So for a seventies bulb, we’re probably talking a little yellower. Not to diminish the importance of this in any way–this will be extraordinarily helpful, but maybe not the final word.

From what I understand, this could relatively easily be incorporated into DrDre’s algorithm. You would need to describe the light used to scan a particular print and the light emitted by a bulb what was in common use when said print had its run in theaters. Of course the accuracy of the final result would depend on how accurate data you fed to the algorithm.

It’s not that it can’t be done, but then you lose the “objectivity” which is part of the draw of DrDre’s method. Choosing the bulb LUT is both subjective (which bulb to choose?) and prone to error. I like what he’s doing, but I see this as more of an initial color correction than a final one, which is really where my comment was headed. You need the objective color correction as a base correction – in fact it’s critical for it to be as objective as possible, and this seems to be doing that – but that doesn’t eliminate the need for subjective corrections afterward.

Well, that depends. In this case it’s about restoring color to a print, and to bring it as close to the original print colors as possible. If that is your goal, this would be the final grading (with some minor asjustments), ready for projection with whatever bulb you fancy. If you want to reproduce some kind of bulb effect on your pc or television screen you still have some work to do, but I would consider that beyond the scope of a restoration.

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How would you ever know if it was restored to match the print’s color, then? Even when people are able to match the scan to the print by looking at the projected print while they’re doing it, they are of course matching it to a specific bulb (hopefully the correct one). I mean, the print doesn’t even technically have color without a light source to see it. 😉 I think some bias is required because almost 0% of people are going to be watching it with the ‘correct’ type of bulb, even among the lower percentage of people who will be projecting it in some way. But the print itself doesn’t posses some ‘bulbless’ color state that is both objective and correct, does it?

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No but it has layers of color spectrum sensitive siler halides. If I’ve understood the algorithm correctly this brings them back to their correct quantities of Red Blue and Green.

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.

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towne32 said:

How would you ever know if it was restored to match the print’s color, then? Even when people are able to match the scan to the print by looking at the projected print while they’re doing it, they are of course matching it to a specific bulb (hopefully the correct one). I mean, the print doesn’t even technically have color without a light source to see it. 😉 I think some bias is required because almost 0% of people are going to be watching it with the ‘correct’ type of bulb, even among the lower percentage of people who will be projecting it in some way. But the print itself doesn’t posses some ‘bulbless’ color state that is both objective and correct, does it?

Of course it does 😃. The “bulbless” color is when you shine white light through it. You should never bias a print during restoration. The bias is introduced when you shine a biased light through it, like a 70s bulb, which has a slight yellow bias. The colors are simply related to the respective amount of dyes, which in turn absorb, red, green light, producing the unbiased colors, if you use an unbiased light source. Now, if you’re interested in making a home video release that mimics a print projected with a 70s light bulb, you could incorporate this in your color grading, but if you’re color grading a print for projection, you definitely want the unbiased colors.

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You guys are overthinking this. There was/IS a “bulb” used and it was the one in Poita’s scanner (Or TeamNegatives). The difference is in the color temperature between his bulb and the one used in the 70’s… ala white balance… and the only difference is if he scanned it with an LED lamp, or if it used an incandescent. The differences are known temperatures and IF it’s that important as Dr. Dre said that would be a final LUT applied to the entire movie once everything else is done. What you’re going to get though is Stormtroopers that are mildly yellow though, instead of mildly blue. The primaries are going to be largely unaffected.

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Although… now that you got me thinking about it… this DOES sort of look like the differences that a bulb color might make in the output… IB print on top, Harmy/Town2.7 bottom:


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It does, and it’s one reason why I’m not altogether thrilled with the idea of eliminating the color tints of DeEd 2.5 and making everything look neutral.

Mike V made this point back when he first introduced us to the idea a few years ago: in order to get back the original colors of the movie, you have to view it through a 70’s-era light source. If you don’t, you’re not seeing it the way the filmmakers or the general public would have seen it at the time. They made their color timing choices by viewing the film through projection equipment of that era, with its warmer and more yellow-tinted output. A neutral light source just doesn’t look right for this movie, because that whole effect is completely removed. The amount of yellow in the image will be significantly reduced compared to how the output would have appeared when the color timing was being done, so in order to see what they would have seen, it has to be put back in.

Obviously very few people are going to be able to project a film print with vintage light source, so incorporating it into the color timing of a release is the only way to actually ensure that it comes across the way it should to the end viewer. Now obviously this doesn’t directly affect what is being done with the algorithm this thread is about, because a neutral color scheme is exactly what it will most easily create. But it is something that needs to be kept in mind for any release that claims to desire color accuracy to the movie’s original appearance.

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hairy_hen said:

It does, and it’s one reason why I’m not altogether thrilled with the idea of eliminating the color tints of DeEd 2.5 and making everything look neutral.

Mike V made this point back when he first introduced us to the idea a few years ago: in order to get back the original colors of the movie, you have to view it through a 70’s-era light source. If you don’t, you’re not seeing it the way the filmmakers or the general public would have seen it at the time. They made their color timing choices by viewing the film through projection equipment of that era, with its warmer and more yellow-tinted output. A neutral light source just doesn’t look right for this movie, because that whole effect is completely removed. The amount of yellow in the image will be significantly reduced compared to how the output would have appeared when the color timing was being done, so in order to see what they would have seen, it has to be put back in.

Obviously very few people are going to be able to project a film print with vintage light source, so incorporating it into the color timing of a release is the only way to actually ensure that it comes across the way it should to the end viewer. Now obviously this doesn’t directly affect what is being done with the algorithm this thread is about, because a neutral color scheme is exactly what it will most easily create. But it is something that needs to be kept in mind for any release that claims to desire color accuracy to the movie’s original appearance.

The movie’s original appearance is exactly what’s on the original print. How it came to be changes nothing. Now, obviously to see the film the way most people saw it back then, you need to project it with a bulb from the era, or a contemporary bulb with similar characteristics, no arguments there. However, this thread is about restoring print colors pure, and simple. Preparing a home video release that is faithful to a 1977 theatrical experience is a separate issue. You say you’re not thrilled about eliminating the color tints of DeEd 2.5. This seems strange to me, as DeEd 2.5 is based on a Technicolor print scan, that was not corrected to the print it’s based on, let alone a print projected with a 70s bulb. Add to this the fact, that the DeEd colors themselves are not an exact match to the colors of the uncorrected scan. The simple reality is, that the DeEd 2.5 color tints are completely unrelated to the bulb characteristics of the era, or any other era for that matter. They are an approximation of the Tech’s characteristics, that include well known problems like a green shift, that poita has argued were an artifact, not present on the other prints that most people saw at the time. Many may prefer the Technicolor print colors, and that’s fine. I’m simply presenting an alternative. In this endeavour, the process I’m using, is the only logical one (to me at least). First recreate the print colors, which is actually the hard part (in the absence of unfaded prints, other than green shifted Technicolor prints), and then add a bulb effect as post-processing. If the print colors are the cake, the bulb effect is the frosting. Seems odd to worry about putting on the frosting, before you have baked a cake.

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DrDre said:
Seems odd to worry about putting on the frosting, before you have baked a cake.

Beautifully put. I kind of want this written on a motivational poster in my office.

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Darth Lucas said:

DrDre said:
Seems odd to worry about putting on the frosting, before you have baked a cake.

Beautifully put. I kind of want this written on a motivational poster in my office.

Ever tried to put a cake in the oven, with the frosting on top… 😉 Not a pretty sight.

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DrDre said:

Darth Lucas said:

DrDre said:
Seems odd to worry about putting on the frosting, before you have baked a cake.

Beautifully put. I kind of want this written on a motivational poster in my office.

Ever tried to put a cake in the oven, with the frosting on top… 😉 Not a pretty sight.

Yikes…I am NOT cleaning up the mess that is going to make!

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Someone left the cake out in the rain.

Project Threepio (Star Wars OOT subtitles)

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I tried putting the cake in with the frosting already on there, it came out looking like this:

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“Silence, Earthling! My name is Darth Vader. I am an extra-terrestrial from the planet Vulcan!” - Calvin “Marty” Klein

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So… to try and bring this slightly back on topic (THE CAKE IS A LIE), Dr. Dre color corrected a reel from the Spanish LPP, which is the base for SilverScreenEdition, but clearly it’s not the same because it hasn’t been cleaned… (so dirty but still sexy, but let’s not get off topic again!) which begs a couple of questions. Did TeamNegative clean and stablilize the movie BEFORE any color correction was applied? Or did they do the color correction first and then clean it?

Secondly, Poita has a full scan of the movie that he has done independently that is red faded and Dre is working on obtaining it?

Poita has done cleanup work on the THX film with high dollar software… so would his scan be “cleaned” like his THX sample or will it be “raw/grindhouse”?

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Hey DrDre,
This looks amazing! I make it a point not to swear, but holy shit your work impresses me. 😛 I did have two questions. You use Matlab to create your algorithms, correct? As there is a Mac version of Matlab, is it also possible to create a Mac version of your completed applications? I don’t want to add to your hassles if the process is complicated, but if it’s a matter of hitting a button and spitting out a Mac app, I for one would appreciate it. I do have Bootcamp, and quite a few old photos and videos that I’d love to put through your process either way.

Keep up the amazing work! 😃

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