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Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 180

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RogueLeader said:

Regardless of your opinions on it, I definitely think now that the trilogy is over I feel like The Last Jedi will be seen as the most important movie in the trilogy. Maybe not now or in a year from now, but as time goes on I think people will appreciate that this movie had a lot more to say than either TFA or TROS. To me it felt like JJ wanted to honor Star Wars in a very superficial way with his films, whereas Rian showed his love for Star Wars by challenging AND reaffirming its central themes. I’m not going to argue about its execution, but this thread and the interesting conversations we have here prove to me that there is a lot more depth with this film in comparison to 7 or 9 worth discussing.

I have no doubt in my mind this is true. I believe I said as much when the film came out, years down the line this will be universally regarded as one of the very best SW films.

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I’ll go with you on best of the sequels but that’s already on a technicality, universally regarded as one of the best SW films sounds way more far-fetched.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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DominicCobb said:

RogueLeader said:

Regardless of your opinions on it, I definitely think now that the trilogy is over I feel like The Last Jedi will be seen as the most important movie in the trilogy. Maybe not now or in a year from now, but as time goes on I think people will appreciate that this movie had a lot more to say than either TFA or TROS. To me it felt like JJ wanted to honor Star Wars in a very superficial way with his films, whereas Rian showed his love for Star Wars by challenging AND reaffirming its central themes. I’m not going to argue about its execution, but this thread and the interesting conversations we have here prove to me that there is a lot more depth with this film in comparison to 7 or 9 worth discussing.

I have no doubt in my mind this is true. I believe I said as much when the film came out, years down the line this will be universally regarded as one of the very best SW films.

I don’t know about universal. For people who see movies as a vehicle for artistic expression and more thoughtful thematic material, sure. People for whom movies are nothing more than thrill-rides, the quality of which is judged by the number of 'slposions in it (there are a lot of people like this), probably not.

Whether or not it will be regarded as one of the very best SW films, it should be. At the very least as one of the most daring and interesting.

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pleasehello said:

DominicCobb said:

RogueLeader said:

Regardless of your opinions on it, I definitely think now that the trilogy is over I feel like The Last Jedi will be seen as the most important movie in the trilogy. Maybe not now or in a year from now, but as time goes on I think people will appreciate that this movie had a lot more to say than either TFA or TROS. To me it felt like JJ wanted to honor Star Wars in a very superficial way with his films, whereas Rian showed his love for Star Wars by challenging AND reaffirming its central themes. I’m not going to argue about its execution, but this thread and the interesting conversations we have here prove to me that there is a lot more depth with this film in comparison to 7 or 9 worth discussing.

I have no doubt in my mind this is true. I believe I said as much when the film came out, years down the line this will be universally regarded as one of the very best SW films.

I don’t know about universal. For people who see movies as a vehicle for artistic expression and more thoughtful thematic material, sure. People for whom movies are nothing more than thrill-rides, the quality of which is judged by the number of 'slposions in it (there are a lot of people like this), probably not.

Even still, TLJ has what I think are some of the most exciting and best directed action sequences of the series.

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pleasehello said:

DominicCobb said:

RogueLeader said:

Regardless of your opinions on it, I definitely think now that the trilogy is over I feel like The Last Jedi will be seen as the most important movie in the trilogy. Maybe not now or in a year from now, but as time goes on I think people will appreciate that this movie had a lot more to say than either TFA or TROS. To me it felt like JJ wanted to honor Star Wars in a very superficial way with his films, whereas Rian showed his love for Star Wars by challenging AND reaffirming its central themes. I’m not going to argue about its execution, but this thread and the interesting conversations we have here prove to me that there is a lot more depth with this film in comparison to 7 or 9 worth discussing.

I have no doubt in my mind this is true. I believe I said as much when the film came out, years down the line this will be universally regarded as one of the very best SW films.

I don’t know about universal. For people who see movies as a vehicle for artistic expression and more thoughtful thematic material, sure. People for whom movies are nothing more than thrill-rides, the quality of which is judged by the number of 'slposions in it (there are a lot of people like this), probably not.

Whether or not it will be regarded as one of the very best SW films, it should be. At the very least as one of the most daring and interesting.

I will go further and give it an A+ for the best postmodernist Star Wars film and extra credit for its use of metanarrative.

The problem a lot of people have with it is that it shares almost nothing in common with the OT in terms of genre or tone.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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On the contrary, I’d argue TLJ would land for more people if it was decidedly less Star Wars in genre/tone. Not that it would be better, but I think I think it would be more broadly appreciated if it owned the fact that it’s not a typical Star Wars story.

TLJ still tries to externally maintain itself as this classic Star Wars adventure, with quippy one liners from our spunky heroes, weird and wacky aliens, and of course the recycled imagery. The tone is there, the genre pastiche is there - and it works for the people it works for because beneath that surface, there’s much more going on. But if you don’t engage with the film in that way, I imagine it must feel quite pointless.

TLJ uses the Star Wars tone to inform its metanarrative, but a lot of it is about transposing classical ideals invoked by that tone onto a harsher reality. What does it mean to be Luke Skywalker after happily ever after? What does it really mean to fight for what you believe when the odds are stacked against you? Again I’m not saying it would be better, but the heart of the film would become more apparent to more people if it was heavy handed about “not being like Star Wars.” To some of my friends, TLJ was just a disappointing plot. And the plot wasn’t really the point, was it?

The deconstruction from the base of “Star Wars film” is what makes it smart and postmodern, but perhaps it would be more broadly received if it, like, tried to be The Dark Knight of Star Wars. Then I bet some 14 year olds* would have been blown away by Luke’s portrayal as opposed to thinking he was just shafted for bad reasons. Just a more obviously Not Star Wars affair to get people in a different mindset. More people would get into it for being different because it would feel different. I bet the people who like TLJ as it is now wouldn’t like it as much. Me included. But I would never know, would I?

This isn’t to say TLJ as it is, is at its core a bad Star Wars movie - I’d say it’s the only one in the ST with anything that builds on the OT’s themes. I just think it’s a shame Star Wars is such a brand, and not a series of stories now. TLJ leaned into the brand so that it could tell a new story. The Mando leaned into the old stories to be branded a little differently. I understand the mindset and it gave us TLJ, but I don’t feel as excited about the possibilities of the universe any more.

*not necessarily in age

Andor: The Rogue One Arc

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I think the ideas of TLJ are the best in the trilogy, but the execution is awful. Rewatching it can be cringe inducing. Much prefer TFA and TROS in practice (even if not in concept).

Maul- A Star Wars Story

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The Last Jedi may not be the best Star Wars movie, but some ideas definitely had potential, like Rey training with Luke, Finn having his own side mission, etc.

The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequel and Disney trilogies is that they will always be around. Forever. They will never go away. It can never be undone.

I also prefer to be referred to as “TNT”, not “Freezing”.

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OutboundFlight said:

I think the ideas of TLJ are the best in the trilogy, but the execution is awful. Rewatching it can be cringe inducing. Much prefer TFA and TROS in practice (even if not in concept).

That’s basically how I feel about this latest trilogy. TFA and TROS are bad ideas with good execution, TLJ is good ideas with bad execution. Both good ideas and good execution define a good movie for me, so I can’t really say any of the sequel movies are good, let alone better than the OT.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

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He actually seems to go further than that in the interview, saying that he’s not really interested in creating a world or a universe but rather a 2-hour experience in the theater. I’m actually surprised by this because worldbuilding is to me a key aspect of writing, especially sci-fi and fantasy writing.

Whether or not that’s a valid way of creating a story, it really seems to disregard much of the appeal of Star Wars, which took great pains to create the illusion of a vast universe.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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I think there’s a difference between world-building with a larger, continuing, well-thought-of universe in mind (what many fans want Star Wars to be, Marvel Cinematic Universe, etc) and providing little glimpses of a larger universe without too much concern for exploring or explaining in the future (what the original Star Wars did)

ROTJ Storyboard Reconstruction Project

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True, but I would argue that these two approaches are not highly distinct for an ever expanding property like Star Wars. Even if worldbuilding starts out with little glimpses, future installments will naturally expand these glimpses and give their own. The end result is the same - a large, continuing universe. Whether or not it’s well-thought-out is down to the care and planning of these stories.

So the worldbuilding for Star Wars has been a priority since the beginning of the Expanded Universe. Originally it was supposed to be this grand interconnected story, and it kinda was occasionally, but it quickly became careless and haphazard.

The weird thing is that everyone figured that the de-canonization of the old EU was to make way for a more Marvel-esque expanded universe from Disney, but their attempt has been no better than the first one.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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I do get Rian’s approach, though.

While worldbuilding is an important part of writing any story, another school of writing would more emphasize themes - the why. What was the point of the story, and why did you need to tell it?

Worldbuilding is of course a great exercise in imagination and fleshes out your story, but it doesn’t necessarily justify your story’s existence on a deeper level. As someone who dabbled in film school, this is an attitude a lot of film academics and artsy professors push on you. Escapism and fun, is all well and good, but the best work is about something. While there’s only so many new ways you can combine tropes and derivative elements from thousands of years of storytelling, the unique experiences of different individuals in an ever-changing world will never run out.

Write not to make the most interesting, fleshed out worlds, or the coolest, most interesting characters - write a story with purpose and meaning to you, because everything has basically been done before. (And that can manifest in a multitude of different ways, not just plot.) That doesn’t exclude cool worlds and characters, but creativity from that perspective will naturally be more unique than just emulating what you like.

It was often explained to us as good practice because film is a two hour medium and you never know if you’ll get a sequel. Or the opportunity for an expanded universe. Moviemaking is a business, and your first pitches won’t spawn franchises without any proof of profit. And the studio wouldn’t need your hero’s journey in a sci-fi/fantasy world if they already have properties/options in that same niche. Without big names or money, it’s about making the Expanse when Star Trek exists.

This is definitely where Rian comes from. And it’s not something you can just unlearn. Especially when that’s how you begin to enjoy things. So when he gets the Star War, the question he feels he must answer with his film is “Why are there sequels?” from a thematic perspective. Not “How can I expand an existing universe?” If anything, the Star Wars world as already built on the back of at least 8 other films, hours of TV, tons of books, and so many comics - was a luxury for him. He just doubled down his film. He never considered it part of his job to curate anything more than those two hours.

Andor: The Rogue One Arc

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NeverarGreat said:

True, but I would argue that these two approaches are not highly distinct for an ever expanding property like Star Wars. Even if worldbuilding starts out with little glimpses, future installments will naturally expand these glimpses and give their own. The end result is the same - a large, continuing universe. Whether or not it’s well-thought-out is down to the care and planning of these stories.

So the worldbuilding for Star Wars has been a priority since the beginning of the Expanded Universe. Originally it was supposed to be this grand interconnected story, and it kinda was occasionally, but it quickly became careless and haphazard.

The weird thing is that everyone figured that the de-canonization of the old EU was to make way for a more Marvel-esque expanded universe from Disney, but their attempt has been no better than the first one.

Was it a priority? The “modern” EU started with Zahn refusing to include Dark Empire references in HotE, DE getting some HotE refs thrown in, and then DE being ignored for awhile. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Dark_Empire#Conception_and_release
(though I am surprised to learn he did include material from the Roleplaying Game)

(Never mind Splinter of the Mind’s Eye, Lando Adventures and Han Adventures, of course)

ROTJ Storyboard Reconstruction Project

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But you shouldn’t just ignore world-building, plot, and character arcs in service of themes. That was one of TLJ’s major failings in my opinion. Themes were put above all else, even when it resulted in an uninteresting premise, nonsensical plot points, and confusing character arcs. I understand that themes are an important part of cinema, but they aren’t the only important part of cinema, and I feel like that’s something Rian misunderstands with a lot of his movies.

(I’m responding to NFBisms)

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

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Well, I think he only ignored world-building and plot for sure, but the entire movie was just character arcs and the themes that guided them. So I 2/3 agree with you.

But yeah, Rian is a very theme-oriented filmmaker, and I was just trying to explain what makes him that way, and how people like myself enjoy the film. I totally understand why people didn’t like it, and I’ve been the first to say on this page how unwieldy and perhaps misguided TLJ and its approach was. Star Wars is a brand - a lore that people follow - not just a series of films. Rian should have known that audience, not assume they were all film nerds. It’s not like TLJ is particularly super well-written enough anyway.

I guess I do want to dispute the idea that themes shouldn’t be put first. I think they inform pretty much all good storytelling, and you need to prioritize thematic consistency to bring any story together. I think focusing on theme can’t overtake plot, character, and world. It can only enhance them. But not caring about it can ruin them. The themes are the story. That’s where everything about your story comes from. Why it’s being told. People just doing stuff somewhere doesn’t work without a any sort of through-line to tie it together.

Andor: The Rogue One Arc

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Bounding into Comics is a terrible website that probably shouldn’t be getting eyeballs or attention from anyone. It’s essentially a mouthpiece for some of the absolute worst elements of “geek culture” or “fandom” in general.

It’s essentially Breitbart or OANN for “fanboys”

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Broom Kid said:

Bounding into Comics is a terrible website that probably shouldn’t be getting eyeballs or attention from anyone. It’s essentially a mouthpiece for some of the absolute worst elements of “geek culture” or “fandom” in general.

It’s essentially Breitbart or OANN for “fanboys”

Thanks for saying something to this effect. I appreciate the linked interview with Rian Johnson, but the “article” reads more like a fan forum complaint:

“However, radically changing characters that are part of a much larger narrative doesn’t work on audiences. It doesn’t work with Hux and it most certainly doesn’t work on Luke Skywalker…”

This is what passes for journalism now? Give me a break.

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pleasehello said:

Broom Kid said:

Bounding into Comics is a terrible website that probably shouldn’t be getting eyeballs or attention from anyone. It’s essentially a mouthpiece for some of the absolute worst elements of “geek culture” or “fandom” in general.

It’s essentially Breitbart or OANN for “fanboys”

Thanks for saying something to this effect. I appreciate the linked interview with Rian Johnson, but the “article” reads more like a fan forum complaint:

“However, radically changing characters that are part of a much larger narrative doesn’t work on audiences. It doesn’t work with Hux and it most certainly doesn’t work on Luke Skywalker…”

This is what passes for journalism now. Give me a break.

I honestly didn’t even go through the link. I already saw the interview and thought his comments were spot on. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that obnoxious fans and fansites have twisted his words to mean “I hate Star Wars and Star Wars canon.” These are the same kind of people who would like for us to believe that him and Mark Hamill passionately despise each other. They live in an alternate universe where Rian is some sort of diabolical maniac whose sole purpose in life was to give fans the middle finger.

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Most great SF properties were build on a haphazard world building. Many of them were built up in pieces in story after story. In the case of Star Trek it was by many different people adding pieces to it. Star Wars had early input from Alan Dean Foster (Splinter of the Mind’s Eye was the first idea for a sequel) and Brian Daley (some of his terms have become movie canon). Some things from the Marvel comics got used. That was the first place we saw speeder bikes. So while many think George did a lot of that solo, he didn’t. There were a lot of ideas swirling around and some of them ended up in the films. The PT probably had more influence from the EU as it developed later. It definitely had influence from the West End RPG. And to be fair, all the EU had input from GL, but it was fleshed out with ideas that did not come from him. Many were the necessity of the story and the writer that created it. The PT is just the first time that the film’s stories were developed and fleshed out by other writers. And even Johnson was working to a story arc. He didn’t have to worry much about world building because he was writing the middle story and could focus on character development (and contrary to some opinions, the movie is full of character development).

What we do know that Kennedy and Abrams started from Lucas’s treatment and the put them through the normal story development process to take a rough idea and expand it to a workable movie trilogy. We know that some of Lucas’s ideas made it through to the final films. A lot in the movies is new and comes from the expansion of the story and new directions that they took. George would have made similar changes had he done the story development himself. We would have gotten something very different, but I bet it would have been as divisive if not more so.

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DominicCobb said:

pleasehello said:

Broom Kid said:

Bounding into Comics is a terrible website that probably shouldn’t be getting eyeballs or attention from anyone. It’s essentially a mouthpiece for some of the absolute worst elements of “geek culture” or “fandom” in general.

It’s essentially Breitbart or OANN for “fanboys”

Thanks for saying something to this effect. I appreciate the linked interview with Rian Johnson, but the “article” reads more like a fan forum complaint:

“However, radically changing characters that are part of a much larger narrative doesn’t work on audiences. It doesn’t work with Hux and it most certainly doesn’t work on Luke Skywalker…”

This is what passes for journalism now. Give me a break.

I honestly didn’t even go through the link. I already saw the interview and thought his comments were spot on. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that obnoxious fans and fansites have twisted his words to mean “I hate Star Wars and Star Wars canon.” These are the same kind of people who would like for us to believe that him and Mark Hamill passionately despise each other. They live in an alternate universe where Rian is some sort of diabolical maniac whose sole purpose in life was to give fans the middle finger.

I can’t even see how Rian’s comments remotely equate with some notion of his hating Star Wars. I’m not the biggest TLJ fan in the world, but it seems obvious to me that he’s a huge SW fan who wanted nothing more than to make a great SW movie. This is getting silly.