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Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 174

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yotsuya said:

Broom Kid said:

People don’t overcome their shortcomings and then never ever make them ever again for the rest of their life, though.

His mistake in this example is “seeing that his nephew will commit genocide on a scale his father never dreamed of and instinctually flicking on a lightsaber” - before immediately feeling a flood of total shame at himself in response. It’s actually a lesser mistake, considering the first time he tried to save one of his genocidal relatives he kicked the hell out of him and then cut his hand off before just barely managing to stop himself from delivering the killing blow.

Nobody solves a problem in their life once and then it stays solved forever. Even real life heroes struggle with those sorts of things. That he made that mistake (among others, including subtly succumbing to hubris and vanity) doesn’t erase his maturation as a character (especially considering the rest of the film’s characterization of Luke, and Hamill’s amazing work in bringing it depth and meaning). It complicates it, but by the end of the film’s arc, it’s enriched. Luke does something no Jedi’s ever done, not even Yoda. He only unlocks the potential and ability within himself to do that because he learns - finally - from the failures he kept incurring (as we all do) when his life continued past “happily ever after.”

His stand at the end of ROTJ was great, but that is a moment. I really feel the rest of ROTJ and the two previous films is more true to his character and insisting that he must live up to that high point of heroism at the end of ROTJ is lifting him above being human and putting him on a pedestal.

This is a really odd statement for me. How can you point to the end of a well established character arc over the course of three films, and within this film, and say: “Nah, that is just an isolated moment, that doesn’t really count? Just look at the flawed guy in TESB, that is the real Luke, who never learned from his mistakes, and will forever be the reckless boy looking to the horizon, rather than the responsible man he appeared to be at the end of ROTJ.” The isolated moment, that stands out is the Luke in Ben’s hutt, who for no apparent reason regresses back to the reckless boy looking to the horizon. It is a moment, that required context, and development, that we simply never got, and so we are left wondering why Luke, who saw the good in and hope for his father, didn’t extend the same courtesy to the son of his sister and best friend, who by then was just a young boy asleep in his bed struggling with dark thoughts? I like Luke’s arc in TLJ, but I feel the setup was rather poorly handled. It’s perfectly fine for a character to make a mistake, but as viewers we should understand the reasons for that mistake. It shouldn’t be, because the plot requires it, and we should not have to ignore the last part of a character arc to make it work. I also think, that if the premise had been well written, and developed, the vast majority of fans would have accepted it. Conversly, when a large segment of the fanbase rejects a certain premise, it is a good indication, it wasn’t handled very well.

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yotsuya said:

Broom Kid said:

People don’t overcome their shortcomings and then never ever make them ever again for the rest of their life, though.

His mistake in this example is “seeing that his nephew will commit genocide on a scale his father never dreamed of and instinctually flicking on a lightsaber” - before immediately feeling a flood of total shame at himself in response. It’s actually a lesser mistake, considering the first time he tried to save one of his genocidal relatives he kicked the hell out of him and then cut his hand off before just barely managing to stop himself from delivering the killing blow.

Nobody solves a problem in their life once and then it stays solved forever. Even real life heroes struggle with those sorts of things. That he made that mistake (among others, including subtly succumbing to hubris and vanity) doesn’t erase his maturation as a character (especially considering the rest of the film’s characterization of Luke, and Hamill’s amazing work in bringing it depth and meaning). It complicates it, but by the end of the film’s arc, it’s enriched. Luke does something no Jedi’s ever done, not even Yoda. He only unlocks the potential and ability within himself to do that because he learns - finally - from the failures he kept incurring (as we all do) when his life continued past “happily ever after.”

I think you nailed it. His mistake in that flashback is minor except that he Ben catches him doing it and lashes out. Had Ben not been on the verge, that would not have happened. Luke makes a minor mistake and Ben goes into a rage. That shows that Snoke had already turned him. Luke isn’t about to Kill Ben. And I have said many times that Luke in TLJ very much pulls from the Luke we saw in the OT. His stand at the end of ROTJ was great, but that is a moment. I really feel the rest of ROTJ and the two previous films is more true to his character and insisting that he must live up to that high point of heroism at the end of ROTJ is lifting him above being human and putting him on a pedestal. TLJ brings humanity back to the character and makes him more real and relatable like he was in the OT.

You guys are missing the point, Luke already had his failure arc, not in Return of thr jedi, but in empire stris back.
Luke did nothing wrong in ROTJ, he had motives to kill vader, and lol “cold blooded”… It was a battle for life,Vader threatened his sister so he did what he needed to do.

The point is Star wars is not a depiction of reality, its about heroism and positive inspiration. Luke was an inspiration, now he is a grumpy uncle. Realist? Yes. Desirable? Hell no. And the worst of all having this grumpy Luke works agains Reys character development and works against the movie.

So i loved Luke and i loved Rey, TLJ ruined both. They were both useless, undecided morons.

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I agree it really undercuts Luke and Han’s development for them to have failed in the same ways they seemed to grow from like relapsed addicts. Just wanted to add again why it’s also different for me when Luke has seen firsthand the living proof of Vader and all the destruction he’s caused he still says he cannot kill him to Obi-Wan, and then to Vader, so it yes for me it is extremely abrupt to the point of whiplash when Luke reacts to his defenseless nephew’s dream. Maybe if it were depicted visually as a premonition it would have sold better for me, but I feel like I’m just taking his word for it that the thoughts were seriously super bad, I don’t know it just doesn’t seem organic at all.

EDIT: I typed all that out just to see Dre’s post already covered it haha

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Sorry, but Leia kissing Luke isn’t upsetting at all.

Virgin since 1987, horny since 1999. Thank God I’m not an incel.

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RogueLeader said:

RJ said he created Rose because he felt Finn and Poe had the same voice, but imagine the Rose and Finn conversation about war, but Poe took Finn’s place and Finn took Rose’s place. Poe likes being the hero and does whatever he can to win, but considering Finn is a literal child soldier, he knows all about the costs of war.

Cosmonaut has a lot of really good takes, but I never agreed with this.

Rose is not talking to Finn about how bad war is. She’s talking about how war against the First Order is good, justified and necessary, and that Canto Bight is awful for supporting the First Order, not for supporting war.

Death of the Author

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SparkySywer said:

Finn wouldn’t have saved his friends by running into the cannon, wasn’t that the whole point?

I’m not sure. It wasn’t made clear in the movie, which was probably not a good idea.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000 edits), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian.
May the midichlorians be with you.

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SparkySywer said:

RogueLeader said:

RJ said he created Rose because he felt Finn and Poe had the same voice, but imagine the Rose and Finn conversation about war, but Poe took Finn’s place and Finn took Rose’s place. Poe likes being the hero and does whatever he can to win, but considering Finn is a literal child soldier, he knows all about the costs of war.

Rose is not talking to Finn about how bad war is. She’s talking about how war against the First Order is good, justified and necessary, and that Canto Bight is awful for supporting the First Order, not for supporting war.

In that case, why does Rose save Finn from killing himself for no purpose? Wasn’t the point of her speech to inspire him to fight against the First Order?

Yes, I know common sense don’t sacrifice yourself for no reason, but it would be a much clearer telling of the theme if you had the character learn about it and then react accordingly, not learn about it and overdo it to the point the same character who inspired you to do it now tells you a new message… right at the climax?

Maul- A Star Wars Story

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StarkillerAG said:

SparkySywer said:

Finn wouldn’t have saved his friends by running into the cannon, wasn’t that the whole point?

I’m not sure. It wasn’t made clear in the movie, which was probably not a good idea.

The weapons clearly melted from the beam but it’s unclear of the crash damage would have worked.

Yub Nub for life

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The weapon is about to cut through a door several feet thick so Finn’s craft is likely to just vaporize if he flys down the barrel. No weapons and no ship to make impact (and a flimsy one to start with that wouldn’t have taken out an AT-AT). So Finn was making a useless sacrifice because he was desperate to do something.

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yotsuya said:

The weapon is about to cut through a door several feet thick so Finn’s craft is likely to just vaporize if he flys down the barrel. No weapons and no ship to make impact (and a flimsy one to start with that wouldn’t have taken out an AT-AT). So Finn was making a useless sacrifice because he was desperate to do something.

Yeah, but that’s all fan theory and retroactive justification. The movie didn’t make that clear enough, which accidentally gave people the impression that Rose doomed the Resistance, which wasn’t Rian’s intent with that scene. That’s my main problem with TLJ. Rian had a good vision for the movie, but a lot of his ideas weren’t executed well.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000 edits), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian.
May the midichlorians be with you.

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Finn’s speeder is literally falling apart while he tries to reach the weapon. It’s pretty clear in the movie that he won’t make it.

Han: Hey Lando! You kept your promise, right? Not a scratch?
Lando: Well, what’s left of her isn’t scratched. All the scratched parts got knocked off along the way.
Han (exasperated): Knocked off?!

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Glad we’re starting to have some new arguments about this movie.

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I wouldn’t call it a new argument. I’ve seen the “Would Finn’s sacrifice work” debate 5,000 times before.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000 edits), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian.
May the midichlorians be with you.

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RogueLeader said:

/s

Looks like I got whooshed.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000 edits), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian.
May the midichlorians be with you.

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They are junk speeders and falling apart. The weapon is about to blast a whole in the very thick door and Finn is trying to fly down the barrel. His ship starts disintegrating around him and his weapons are destroyed. It took no brain power for me to understand Finn was going to kill himself and do no damage the first time I saw it. Nothing needs to be added or explained. None of it is fan theory. The movie properly shows us what we need instead of giving us a boring speech to lay it out. Show don’t tell is basic writing 101.

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yotsuya said:

They are junk speeders and falling apart. The weapon is about to blast a whole in the very thick door and Finn is trying to fly down the barrel. His ship starts disintegrating around him and his weapons are destroyed. It took no brain power for me to understand Finn was going to kill himself and do no damage the first time I saw it. Nothing needs to be added or explained. None of it is fan theory. The movie properly shows us what we need instead of giving us a boring speech to lay it out. Show don’t tell is basic writing 101.

I disagree. It’s not made clear at all that his sacrifice would have had no effect. But I don’t think it matters. Either way, Rose’s point remains the same.

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But with one minor adjustment the ship could have crumbled earlier, and then Rose could actually flown in under it and saved Finn from crashing rather than the way it actually looks. But so many minor adjustments… so many ST problems.

Yub Nub for life

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That whole scene is terrible. It comes out of nowhere, contradicting Finn and Rose’s characters, and the way it’s shot is comical. The first time I saw it I thought I was watching a HISHE episode… as she says saving what we love the Resistance blows up in the background. There’s some amazing scenes in TLJ, but this isn’t one of them.

Maul- A Star Wars Story

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pleasehello said:

yotsuya said:

They are junk speeders and falling apart. The weapon is about to blast a whole in the very thick door and Finn is trying to fly down the barrel. His ship starts disintegrating around him and his weapons are destroyed. It took no brain power for me to understand Finn was going to kill himself and do no damage the first time I saw it. Nothing needs to be added or explained. None of it is fan theory. The movie properly shows us what we need instead of giving us a boring speech to lay it out. Show don’t tell is basic writing 101.

I disagree. It’s not made clear at all that his sacrifice would have had no effect. But I don’t think it matters. Either way, Rose’s point remains the same.

The first time I saw it, it seemed clear that he had a pretty good chance to destroy it. The front of the cannon is probably the weakest point.

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Mocata said:

StarkillerAG said:

SparkySywer said:

Finn wouldn’t have saved his friends by running into the cannon, wasn’t that the whole point?

I’m not sure. It wasn’t made clear in the movie, which was probably not a good idea.

The weapons clearly melted from the beam but it’s unclear of the crash damage would have worked.

Don’t forget that Poe tells Finn that the cannon is charged and that it’s a suicide run.

Adywan’s Star Wars Revisited edits are to Blade Runner: The Final Cut as the original theatrical releases of the original trilogy are to the original version of Blade Runner.

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FreezingTNT2 said:

Mocata said:

StarkillerAG said:

SparkySywer said:

Finn wouldn’t have saved his friends by running into the cannon, wasn’t that the whole point?

I’m not sure. It wasn’t made clear in the movie, which was probably not a good idea.

The weapons clearly melted from the beam but it’s unclear of the crash damage would have worked.

Don’t forget that Poe tells Finn that the cannon is charged and that it’s a suicide run.

It being a suicide run doesn’t mean Finn sacrificing himself wouldn’t have disabled or destroyed the cannon, Independence Day style.

a trolling bantha