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Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 168

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 (Edited)

Actually the Luke of TLJ is the one who has finally internalized the lessons of TESB. Rey says herself that Luke is purposefully ignoring his success in ROTJ (which repudiated Yoda and Obi-wan), but he has a reason for doing so - saving Anakin did not destroy the Death Star in the short term, nor the Empire in the long term. On the contrary, Luke sees his victory there and elsewhere as having a direct line to his hubris in training Ben.

And anyway, Luke in ROTJ is very pointedly not able to avoid the emotions affiliated with the dark side. He brings his weapon with him when he goes to see Vader. He gives in to his fear, anger, and hatred. It is only when he is on the verge of killing his father does his rationality come in, and he realizes what he has done - it is an exact mirror of the flashback in TLJ. Of course the argument then is that “he should have known better.” Well fine if you feel that way. But in my mind, the dark side is a constant temptation, and the factors leading to that moment in Ben’s hut were such that Luke was, in his arrogance, unaware of what he was getting into (it was a far more subversive challenge than the explicit manipulation of the Emperor on the Death Star). This arrogance is of course a mirror to the arrogance of the Jedi in the PT not realizing the fear and the anger they were giving into, which caused their downfall. Luke, seeing the cycle of things he’s found himself perpetuating, decides to end the Jedi for good. I don’t see any regression at all, nor would I call any of his actions “stupid.”

In terms of regression for Han Solo - that’s the point of his story. Yes he’s gone back to do the only thing he was good at, but it’s a sham, and he knows he can only stay away for so long. Who he is underneath is a man who’s irrevocably changed from the smuggler we see in the OT. And as for Leia, did we ever see her become anything beyond a Rebel leader? You certainly can’t argue regression, maybe stasis in terms of status, but certainly I’d say her motherhood (and her explicit leadership of the Resistance) is a progression (for a character who never really had much of an arc anyway, unfortunately).

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An easier example of the same thing is Han Solo in TFA. Han returns to smuggling? Why? Han didn’t enjoy smuggling, or do it because it was his lifelong dream. He did it to get ahead, to make a buck. Why the heck would he return to a life of crime after having been a war-hero married to a princess/politician? Didn’t Leia and Han have a shared bank account? It’s just absurd. A better alternative would have been that Han was using his old skills to find allies for the Resistance. Since the New Republic has their heads in the sand re the First Order, Han decides (in lieu of his separation from Leia) to go off and recruit allies from the galaxy’s fringes. That way we get the Solo of old (as per TFA’s intention) but with new noble purpose that doesn’t negate his OT arc.

Similarly a disillusioned Luke with the weight of his own legend bearing down on him after his failure to train Ben Solo could absolutely have been conceived without backtracking Luke’s arc to pre-ROTJ status. As with Han, we could have had new challenges and new circumstances that necessarily resurrected the heroes’ old selves in a progressive rather than regressive way.

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 (Edited)

DominicCobb said:

Actually the Luke of TLJ is the one who has finally internalized the lessons of TESB. Rey says herself that Luke is purposefully ignoring his success in ROTJ (which repudiated Yoda and Obi-wan), but he has a reason for doing so - saving Anakin did not destroy the Death Star in the short term, nor the Empire in the long term. On the contrary, Luke sees his victory there and elsewhere as having a direct line to his hubris in training Ben.

And anyway, Luke in ROTJ is very pointedly not able to avoid the emotions affiliated with the dark side. He brings his weapon with him when he goes to see Vader. He gives in to his fear, anger, and hatred. It is only when he is on the verge of killing his father does his rationality come in, and he realizes what he has done - it is an exact mirror of the flashback in TLJ. Of course the argument then is that “he should have known better.” Well fine if you feel that way. But in my mind, the dark side is a constant temptation, and the factors leading to that moment in Ben’s hut were such that Luke was, in his arrogance, unaware of what he was getting into (it was a far more subversive challenge than the explicit manipulation of the Emperor on the Death Star). This arrogance is of course a mirror to the arrogance of the Jedi in the PT not realizing the fear and the anger they were giving into, which caused their downfall. Luke, seeing the cycle of things he’s found himself perpetuating, decides to end the Jedi for good. I don’t see any regression at all.

To me this presents a very narrow point of view, and just like much of Luke’s character development seems to be ignored, reducing him down to his mistakes at some moment in the past, so too the Jedi are reduced to their mistakes at the darkest time in their history. Like Luke there is much more to the Jedi than their mistakes at a specific moment in time. The Jedi guarded the peace in the galaxy for over a thousand generations. That to me is clear proof, that the Jedi code works, and that Luke in TLJ was turned into a fool, for not being able to look beyond the flaws of a couple of individual Jedi, and by no means seem to be representative of the Jedi over their millenia long history.

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Actually the Luke of TLJ is the one who has finally internalized the lessons of TESB. Rey says herself that Luke is purposefully ignoring his success in ROTJ (which repudiated Yoda and Obi-wan), but he has a reason for doing so - saving Anakin did not destroy the Death Star in the short term, nor the Empire in the long term. On the contrary, Luke sees his victory there and elsewhere as having a direct line to his hubris in training Ben.

And anyway, Luke in ROTJ is very pointedly not able to avoid the emotions affiliated with the dark side. He brings his weapon with him when he goes to see Vader. He gives in to his fear, anger, and hatred. It is only when he is on the verge of killing his father does his rationality come in, and he realizes what he has done - it is an exact mirror of the flashback in TLJ. Of course the argument then is that “he should have known better.” Well fine if you feel that way. But in my mind, the dark side is a constant temptation, and the factors leading to that moment in Ben’s hut were such that Luke was, in his arrogance, unaware of what he was getting into (it was a far more subversive challenge than the explicit manipulation of the Emperor on the Death Star). This arrogance is of course a mirror to the arrogance of the Jedi in the PT not realizing the fear and the anger they were giving into, which caused their downfall. Luke, seeing the cycle of things he’s found himself perpetuating, decides to end the Jedi for good. I don’t see any regression at all.

To me this presents a very narrow point of view, and just like much of Luke’s character development seems to be ignored, reducing him down to his mistakes at some moment in the past, so too the Jedi are reduced to their mistakes at the darkest time in their history. Like Luke there is much more to the Jedi than their mistakes at a specific moment in time. The Jedi guarded the peace in the galaxy for over a thousand generations. That to me is clear proof, that the Jedi code works, and that Luke in TLJ was turned into a fool, not being able to look beyond the flaws of a couple of individual Jedi, who by no means seem to be representative of the Jedi over their millenia long history.

I mean, yeah, Luke is looking at it the wrong way, and he’s ultimately proven to be wrong. But Luke is no fool. All we know about the Jedi is that they were the guardians of peace for a thousands generations, but even that doesn’t mean there were a thousand generations of peace. They were exerting their will of the Force over the galaxy. Luke only cites the rise of Darth Sidious and the creation of Vader (because these are things we can connect to as we’ve seen those films), but the whole point of him being on the island is to study the long history of the Jedi, and this is the conclusion he came to, that the Jedi must end. You can nitpick that they didn’t give you sufficient explanation, but in my opinion the implication is clear, that there are more flaws to the order than just the ones we’ve seen in the films.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Actually the Luke of TLJ is the one who has finally internalized the lessons of TESB. Rey says herself that Luke is purposefully ignoring his success in ROTJ (which repudiated Yoda and Obi-wan), but he has a reason for doing so - saving Anakin did not destroy the Death Star in the short term, nor the Empire in the long term. On the contrary, Luke sees his victory there and elsewhere as having a direct line to his hubris in training Ben.

And anyway, Luke in ROTJ is very pointedly not able to avoid the emotions affiliated with the dark side. He brings his weapon with him when he goes to see Vader. He gives in to his fear, anger, and hatred. It is only when he is on the verge of killing his father does his rationality come in, and he realizes what he has done - it is an exact mirror of the flashback in TLJ. Of course the argument then is that “he should have known better.” Well fine if you feel that way. But in my mind, the dark side is a constant temptation, and the factors leading to that moment in Ben’s hut were such that Luke was, in his arrogance, unaware of what he was getting into (it was a far more subversive challenge than the explicit manipulation of the Emperor on the Death Star). This arrogance is of course a mirror to the arrogance of the Jedi in the PT not realizing the fear and the anger they were giving into, which caused their downfall. Luke, seeing the cycle of things he’s found himself perpetuating, decides to end the Jedi for good. I don’t see any regression at all.

To me this presents a very narrow point of view, and just like much of Luke’s character development seems to be ignored, reducing him down to his mistakes at some moment in the past, so too the Jedi are reduced to their mistakes at the darkest time in their history. Like Luke there is much more to the Jedi than their mistakes at a specific moment in time. The Jedi guarded the peace in the galaxy for over a thousand generations. That to me is clear proof, that the Jedi code works, and that Luke in TLJ was turned into a fool, not being able to look beyond the flaws of a couple of individual Jedi, who by no means seem to be representative of the Jedi over their millenia long history.

I mean, yeah, Luke is looking at it the wrong way, and he’s ultimately proven to be wrong. But Luke is no fool. All we know about the Jedi is that they were the guardians of peace for a thousands generations, but even that doesn’t mean there were a thousand generations of peace. They were exerting their will of the Force over the galaxy. Luke only cites the rise of Darth Sidious and the creation of Vader (because these are things we can connect to as we’ve seen those films), but the whole point of him being on the island is to study the long history of the Jedi, and this is the conclusion he came to, that the Jedi must end. You can nitpick that they didn’t give you sufficient explanation, but in my opinion the implication is clear, that there are more flaws to the order than just the ones we’ve seen in the films.

But why allude to some unknown flaws, deflating the Jedi as a whole, only to then go back to business as usual? That seems pretty pointless, to just use it as a plot device to keep Luke in one place up till, and for the duration of the story, have him repeating how he has good reasons for wanting the Jedi to end, only to have him recant, when it’s convenient for the writer of the story. That’s my issue with this kind of storytelling. There appears to be more to the story, but we are never shown. I just read a comic about Kylo Ren and Snoke, and there’s more development of both characters in those 20 pages then there ever was in the movies. Such character development would go a long way in providing some much needed emotional resonance to Kylo’s betrayal in TLJ.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Actually the Luke of TLJ is the one who has finally internalized the lessons of TESB. Rey says herself that Luke is purposefully ignoring his success in ROTJ (which repudiated Yoda and Obi-wan), but he has a reason for doing so - saving Anakin did not destroy the Death Star in the short term, nor the Empire in the long term. On the contrary, Luke sees his victory there and elsewhere as having a direct line to his hubris in training Ben.

And anyway, Luke in ROTJ is very pointedly not able to avoid the emotions affiliated with the dark side. He brings his weapon with him when he goes to see Vader. He gives in to his fear, anger, and hatred. It is only when he is on the verge of killing his father does his rationality come in, and he realizes what he has done - it is an exact mirror of the flashback in TLJ. Of course the argument then is that “he should have known better.” Well fine if you feel that way. But in my mind, the dark side is a constant temptation, and the factors leading to that moment in Ben’s hut were such that Luke was, in his arrogance, unaware of what he was getting into (it was a far more subversive challenge than the explicit manipulation of the Emperor on the Death Star). This arrogance is of course a mirror to the arrogance of the Jedi in the PT not realizing the fear and the anger they were giving into, which caused their downfall. Luke, seeing the cycle of things he’s found himself perpetuating, decides to end the Jedi for good. I don’t see any regression at all.

To me this presents a very narrow point of view, and just like much of Luke’s character development seems to be ignored, reducing him down to his mistakes at some moment in the past, so too the Jedi are reduced to their mistakes at the darkest time in their history. Like Luke there is much more to the Jedi than their mistakes at a specific moment in time. The Jedi guarded the peace in the galaxy for over a thousand generations. That to me is clear proof, that the Jedi code works, and that Luke in TLJ was turned into a fool, not being able to look beyond the flaws of a couple of individual Jedi, who by no means seem to be representative of the Jedi over their millenia long history.

I mean, yeah, Luke is looking at it the wrong way, and he’s ultimately proven to be wrong. But Luke is no fool. All we know about the Jedi is that they were the guardians of peace for a thousands generations, but even that doesn’t mean there were a thousand generations of peace. They were exerting their will of the Force over the galaxy. Luke only cites the rise of Darth Sidious and the creation of Vader (because these are things we can connect to as we’ve seen those films), but the whole point of him being on the island is to study the long history of the Jedi, and this is the conclusion he came to, that the Jedi must end. You can nitpick that they didn’t give you sufficient explanation, but in my opinion the implication is clear, that there are more flaws to the order than just the ones we’ve seen in the films.

Yet, Luke then changes his mind.

Because he is wrong about the Jedi and about himself. Changing his mind means allowing himself to be himself. Luke sees the legacy of the Jedi as failure, and his own legacy as perpetuating that failure. So he tries to move beyond his instincts. But though the Jedi often failed, it was that they kept trying to do the right thing that was important. Their failures are not what define them. Luke sees his solution as a long term play - if the Force were allowed to just be left alone, not controlled but any one order, then it might find balance and these disastrous failures wouldn’t happen. But the short term is important. People are in danger, and he has the power to stop it, so he should and he does.

But why allude to some unknown flaws, deflating the Jedi as a whole, only to then go back to business as usual? That seems pretty pointless, to just use it as a plot device to keep Luke in one place up till, and for the duration of the story, have him repeating how he has good reasons for wanting the Jedi to end, only to have him recant, when it’s convenient for the writer of the story. That’s my issue with this kind of storytelling. There appears to be more to the story, but we are never shown.

Because the story is not, nor has it ever been, about “the Jedi as a whole.” The story, in this case, is about a man overcoming his failures. The history of the Jedi is just a mirror to Luke’s own journey, to have him swear off the Jedi is for him to swear off who he is, because he believes who he is is a failure. But the lesson, like I said, that failures do not define you. When he “changes his mind,” it’s not him “recanting when it’s convenient.” It’s him finally overcoming his perception of himself as a failure enough to try once again (or do, as it were). To the extent that Luke’s journey has always been about “use the Force/let go/believe in yourself,” this is his ultimate challenge to overcome.

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Actually the Luke of TLJ is the one who has finally internalized the lessons of TESB. Rey says herself that Luke is purposefully ignoring his success in ROTJ (which repudiated Yoda and Obi-wan), but he has a reason for doing so - saving Anakin did not destroy the Death Star in the short term, nor the Empire in the long term. On the contrary, Luke sees his victory there and elsewhere as having a direct line to his hubris in training Ben.

And anyway, Luke in ROTJ is very pointedly not able to avoid the emotions affiliated with the dark side. He brings his weapon with him when he goes to see Vader. He gives in to his fear, anger, and hatred. It is only when he is on the verge of killing his father does his rationality come in, and he realizes what he has done - it is an exact mirror of the flashback in TLJ. Of course the argument then is that “he should have known better.” Well fine if you feel that way. But in my mind, the dark side is a constant temptation, and the factors leading to that moment in Ben’s hut were such that Luke was, in his arrogance, unaware of what he was getting into (it was a far more subversive challenge than the explicit manipulation of the Emperor on the Death Star). This arrogance is of course a mirror to the arrogance of the Jedi in the PT not realizing the fear and the anger they were giving into, which caused their downfall. Luke, seeing the cycle of things he’s found himself perpetuating, decides to end the Jedi for good. I don’t see any regression at all.

To me this presents a very narrow point of view, and just like much of Luke’s character development seems to be ignored, reducing him down to his mistakes at some moment in the past, so too the Jedi are reduced to their mistakes at the darkest time in their history. Like Luke there is much more to the Jedi than their mistakes at a specific moment in time. The Jedi guarded the peace in the galaxy for over a thousand generations. That to me is clear proof, that the Jedi code works, and that Luke in TLJ was turned into a fool, not being able to look beyond the flaws of a couple of individual Jedi, who by no means seem to be representative of the Jedi over their millenia long history.

I mean, yeah, Luke is looking at it the wrong way, and he’s ultimately proven to be wrong. But Luke is no fool. All we know about the Jedi is that they were the guardians of peace for a thousands generations, but even that doesn’t mean there were a thousand generations of peace. They were exerting their will of the Force over the galaxy. Luke only cites the rise of Darth Sidious and the creation of Vader (because these are things we can connect to as we’ve seen those films), but the whole point of him being on the island is to study the long history of the Jedi, and this is the conclusion he came to, that the Jedi must end. You can nitpick that they didn’t give you sufficient explanation, but in my opinion the implication is clear, that there are more flaws to the order than just the ones we’ve seen in the films.

Yet, Luke then changes his mind.

He doesn’t change his mind about the Jedi, he changes his mind about helping the Resistance. This is shown very well in the Yoda scene. Yoda tells Luke that the teachings of the Jedi were flawed, and tells Luke to pass on everything he learned, both success and failure. Luke still believes that the old Jedi were flawed, but he decides to create a new order of Jedi, learning from the failures of the old.

Myself, the boy, two droids, and no questions asked.

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Time

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Actually the Luke of TLJ is the one who has finally internalized the lessons of TESB. Rey says herself that Luke is purposefully ignoring his success in ROTJ (which repudiated Yoda and Obi-wan), but he has a reason for doing so - saving Anakin did not destroy the Death Star in the short term, nor the Empire in the long term. On the contrary, Luke sees his victory there and elsewhere as having a direct line to his hubris in training Ben.

And anyway, Luke in ROTJ is very pointedly not able to avoid the emotions affiliated with the dark side. He brings his weapon with him when he goes to see Vader. He gives in to his fear, anger, and hatred. It is only when he is on the verge of killing his father does his rationality come in, and he realizes what he has done - it is an exact mirror of the flashback in TLJ. Of course the argument then is that “he should have known better.” Well fine if you feel that way. But in my mind, the dark side is a constant temptation, and the factors leading to that moment in Ben’s hut were such that Luke was, in his arrogance, unaware of what he was getting into (it was a far more subversive challenge than the explicit manipulation of the Emperor on the Death Star). This arrogance is of course a mirror to the arrogance of the Jedi in the PT not realizing the fear and the anger they were giving into, which caused their downfall. Luke, seeing the cycle of things he’s found himself perpetuating, decides to end the Jedi for good. I don’t see any regression at all.

To me this presents a very narrow point of view, and just like much of Luke’s character development seems to be ignored, reducing him down to his mistakes at some moment in the past, so too the Jedi are reduced to their mistakes at the darkest time in their history. Like Luke there is much more to the Jedi than their mistakes at a specific moment in time. The Jedi guarded the peace in the galaxy for over a thousand generations. That to me is clear proof, that the Jedi code works, and that Luke in TLJ was turned into a fool, not being able to look beyond the flaws of a couple of individual Jedi, who by no means seem to be representative of the Jedi over their millenia long history.

I mean, yeah, Luke is looking at it the wrong way, and he’s ultimately proven to be wrong. But Luke is no fool. All we know about the Jedi is that they were the guardians of peace for a thousands generations, but even that doesn’t mean there were a thousand generations of peace. They were exerting their will of the Force over the galaxy. Luke only cites the rise of Darth Sidious and the creation of Vader (because these are things we can connect to as we’ve seen those films), but the whole point of him being on the island is to study the long history of the Jedi, and this is the conclusion he came to, that the Jedi must end. You can nitpick that they didn’t give you sufficient explanation, but in my opinion the implication is clear, that there are more flaws to the order than just the ones we’ve seen in the films.

Yet, Luke then changes his mind.

Because he is wrong about the Jedi and about himself. Changing his mind means allowing himself to be himself. Luke sees the legacy of the Jedi as failure, and his own legacy as perpetuating that failure. So he tries to move beyond his instincts. But though the Jedi often failed, it was that they kept trying to do the right thing that was important. Their failures are not what define them. Luke sees his solution as a long term play - if the Force were allowed to just be left alone, not controlled but any one order, then it might find balance and these disastrous failures wouldn’t happen. But the short term is important. People are in danger, and he has the power to stop it, so he should and he does.

I added a bit more to my argument above.

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Time
 (Edited)

StarkillerAG said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Actually the Luke of TLJ is the one who has finally internalized the lessons of TESB. Rey says herself that Luke is purposefully ignoring his success in ROTJ (which repudiated Yoda and Obi-wan), but he has a reason for doing so - saving Anakin did not destroy the Death Star in the short term, nor the Empire in the long term. On the contrary, Luke sees his victory there and elsewhere as having a direct line to his hubris in training Ben.

And anyway, Luke in ROTJ is very pointedly not able to avoid the emotions affiliated with the dark side. He brings his weapon with him when he goes to see Vader. He gives in to his fear, anger, and hatred. It is only when he is on the verge of killing his father does his rationality come in, and he realizes what he has done - it is an exact mirror of the flashback in TLJ. Of course the argument then is that “he should have known better.” Well fine if you feel that way. But in my mind, the dark side is a constant temptation, and the factors leading to that moment in Ben’s hut were such that Luke was, in his arrogance, unaware of what he was getting into (it was a far more subversive challenge than the explicit manipulation of the Emperor on the Death Star). This arrogance is of course a mirror to the arrogance of the Jedi in the PT not realizing the fear and the anger they were giving into, which caused their downfall. Luke, seeing the cycle of things he’s found himself perpetuating, decides to end the Jedi for good. I don’t see any regression at all.

To me this presents a very narrow point of view, and just like much of Luke’s character development seems to be ignored, reducing him down to his mistakes at some moment in the past, so too the Jedi are reduced to their mistakes at the darkest time in their history. Like Luke there is much more to the Jedi than their mistakes at a specific moment in time. The Jedi guarded the peace in the galaxy for over a thousand generations. That to me is clear proof, that the Jedi code works, and that Luke in TLJ was turned into a fool, not being able to look beyond the flaws of a couple of individual Jedi, who by no means seem to be representative of the Jedi over their millenia long history.

I mean, yeah, Luke is looking at it the wrong way, and he’s ultimately proven to be wrong. But Luke is no fool. All we know about the Jedi is that they were the guardians of peace for a thousands generations, but even that doesn’t mean there were a thousand generations of peace. They were exerting their will of the Force over the galaxy. Luke only cites the rise of Darth Sidious and the creation of Vader (because these are things we can connect to as we’ve seen those films), but the whole point of him being on the island is to study the long history of the Jedi, and this is the conclusion he came to, that the Jedi must end. You can nitpick that they didn’t give you sufficient explanation, but in my opinion the implication is clear, that there are more flaws to the order than just the ones we’ve seen in the films.

Yet, Luke then changes his mind.

He doesn’t change his mind about the Jedi, he changes his mind about helping the Resistance. This is shown very well in the Yoda scene. Yoda tells Luke that the teachings of the Jedi were flawed, and tells Luke to pass on everything he learned, both success and failure. Luke still believes that the old Jedi were flawed, but he decides to create a new order of Jedi, learning from the failures of the old.

I didn’t hear anything about a new order of Jedi. All I saw was Yoda chastising Luke for not living up to his potential as a Jedi. Yoda didn’t treat that message as some new insight about the Jedi. It was Luke who chose to only see the Jedi through the lense of his own failure, and thus couldn’t see the bigger picture.

Author
Time

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Actually the Luke of TLJ is the one who has finally internalized the lessons of TESB. Rey says herself that Luke is purposefully ignoring his success in ROTJ (which repudiated Yoda and Obi-wan), but he has a reason for doing so - saving Anakin did not destroy the Death Star in the short term, nor the Empire in the long term. On the contrary, Luke sees his victory there and elsewhere as having a direct line to his hubris in training Ben.

And anyway, Luke in ROTJ is very pointedly not able to avoid the emotions affiliated with the dark side. He brings his weapon with him when he goes to see Vader. He gives in to his fear, anger, and hatred. It is only when he is on the verge of killing his father does his rationality come in, and he realizes what he has done - it is an exact mirror of the flashback in TLJ. Of course the argument then is that “he should have known better.” Well fine if you feel that way. But in my mind, the dark side is a constant temptation, and the factors leading to that moment in Ben’s hut were such that Luke was, in his arrogance, unaware of what he was getting into (it was a far more subversive challenge than the explicit manipulation of the Emperor on the Death Star). This arrogance is of course a mirror to the arrogance of the Jedi in the PT not realizing the fear and the anger they were giving into, which caused their downfall. Luke, seeing the cycle of things he’s found himself perpetuating, decides to end the Jedi for good. I don’t see any regression at all.

To me this presents a very narrow point of view, and just like much of Luke’s character development seems to be ignored, reducing him down to his mistakes at some moment in the past, so too the Jedi are reduced to their mistakes at the darkest time in their history. Like Luke there is much more to the Jedi than their mistakes at a specific moment in time. The Jedi guarded the peace in the galaxy for over a thousand generations. That to me is clear proof, that the Jedi code works, and that Luke in TLJ was turned into a fool, not being able to look beyond the flaws of a couple of individual Jedi, who by no means seem to be representative of the Jedi over their millenia long history.

I mean, yeah, Luke is looking at it the wrong way, and he’s ultimately proven to be wrong. But Luke is no fool. All we know about the Jedi is that they were the guardians of peace for a thousands generations, but even that doesn’t mean there were a thousand generations of peace. They were exerting their will of the Force over the galaxy. Luke only cites the rise of Darth Sidious and the creation of Vader (because these are things we can connect to as we’ve seen those films), but the whole point of him being on the island is to study the long history of the Jedi, and this is the conclusion he came to, that the Jedi must end. You can nitpick that they didn’t give you sufficient explanation, but in my opinion the implication is clear, that there are more flaws to the order than just the ones we’ve seen in the films.

But why allude to some unknown flaws, deflating the Jedi as a whole, only to then go back to business as usual? That seems pretty pointless, to just use it as a plot device to keep Luke in one place up till, and for the duration of the story, have him repeating how he has good reasons for wanting the Jedi to end, only to have him recant, when it’s convenient for the writer of the story. That’s my issue with this kind of storytelling. There appears to be more to the story, but we are never shown. I just read a comic about Kylo Ren and Snoke, and there’s more development of both characters in those 20 pages then there ever was in the movies. Such character development would go a long way in providing some much needed emotional resonance to Kylo’s betrayal in TLJ.

What do you mean, “unknown flaws?” The flaws of the Jedi order were clearly shown in both the prequels and the OT. They considered emotion to be a weakness, they focused more on “maintaining balance” than actually helping the galaxy, and their blindness to the world around them allowed Palpatine to take over. And Luke didn’t just magically change his mind because the writer felt like it, the advice of his old master convinced him to put the flaws of the old order behind him and focus on creating a new order. I don’t know where you’re coming from with the “no character development” thing.

Myself, the boy, two droids, and no questions asked.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

StarkillerAG said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Actually the Luke of TLJ is the one who has finally internalized the lessons of TESB. Rey says herself that Luke is purposefully ignoring his success in ROTJ (which repudiated Yoda and Obi-wan), but he has a reason for doing so - saving Anakin did not destroy the Death Star in the short term, nor the Empire in the long term. On the contrary, Luke sees his victory there and elsewhere as having a direct line to his hubris in training Ben.

And anyway, Luke in ROTJ is very pointedly not able to avoid the emotions affiliated with the dark side. He brings his weapon with him when he goes to see Vader. He gives in to his fear, anger, and hatred. It is only when he is on the verge of killing his father does his rationality come in, and he realizes what he has done - it is an exact mirror of the flashback in TLJ. Of course the argument then is that “he should have known better.” Well fine if you feel that way. But in my mind, the dark side is a constant temptation, and the factors leading to that moment in Ben’s hut were such that Luke was, in his arrogance, unaware of what he was getting into (it was a far more subversive challenge than the explicit manipulation of the Emperor on the Death Star). This arrogance is of course a mirror to the arrogance of the Jedi in the PT not realizing the fear and the anger they were giving into, which caused their downfall. Luke, seeing the cycle of things he’s found himself perpetuating, decides to end the Jedi for good. I don’t see any regression at all.

To me this presents a very narrow point of view, and just like much of Luke’s character development seems to be ignored, reducing him down to his mistakes at some moment in the past, so too the Jedi are reduced to their mistakes at the darkest time in their history. Like Luke there is much more to the Jedi than their mistakes at a specific moment in time. The Jedi guarded the peace in the galaxy for over a thousand generations. That to me is clear proof, that the Jedi code works, and that Luke in TLJ was turned into a fool, not being able to look beyond the flaws of a couple of individual Jedi, who by no means seem to be representative of the Jedi over their millenia long history.

I mean, yeah, Luke is looking at it the wrong way, and he’s ultimately proven to be wrong. But Luke is no fool. All we know about the Jedi is that they were the guardians of peace for a thousands generations, but even that doesn’t mean there were a thousand generations of peace. They were exerting their will of the Force over the galaxy. Luke only cites the rise of Darth Sidious and the creation of Vader (because these are things we can connect to as we’ve seen those films), but the whole point of him being on the island is to study the long history of the Jedi, and this is the conclusion he came to, that the Jedi must end. You can nitpick that they didn’t give you sufficient explanation, but in my opinion the implication is clear, that there are more flaws to the order than just the ones we’ve seen in the films.

Yet, Luke then changes his mind.

He doesn’t change his mind about the Jedi, he changes his mind about helping the Resistance.

Well, they kinda go together. He doesn’t change his mind and say “I was wrong, the Jedi aren’t flawed,” but he does change his mind about them needing to end.

This is shown very well in the Yoda scene. Yoda tells Luke that the teachings of the Jedi were flawed, and tells Luke to pass on everything he learned, both success and failure. Luke still believes that the old Jedi were flawed, but he decides to create a new order of Jedi, learning from the failures of the old.

Yes, but he doesn’t decide to build a new order, he leaves that up to Rey.

StarkillerAG said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Actually the Luke of TLJ is the one who has finally internalized the lessons of TESB. Rey says herself that Luke is purposefully ignoring his success in ROTJ (which repudiated Yoda and Obi-wan), but he has a reason for doing so - saving Anakin did not destroy the Death Star in the short term, nor the Empire in the long term. On the contrary, Luke sees his victory there and elsewhere as having a direct line to his hubris in training Ben.

And anyway, Luke in ROTJ is very pointedly not able to avoid the emotions affiliated with the dark side. He brings his weapon with him when he goes to see Vader. He gives in to his fear, anger, and hatred. It is only when he is on the verge of killing his father does his rationality come in, and he realizes what he has done - it is an exact mirror of the flashback in TLJ. Of course the argument then is that “he should have known better.” Well fine if you feel that way. But in my mind, the dark side is a constant temptation, and the factors leading to that moment in Ben’s hut were such that Luke was, in his arrogance, unaware of what he was getting into (it was a far more subversive challenge than the explicit manipulation of the Emperor on the Death Star). This arrogance is of course a mirror to the arrogance of the Jedi in the PT not realizing the fear and the anger they were giving into, which caused their downfall. Luke, seeing the cycle of things he’s found himself perpetuating, decides to end the Jedi for good. I don’t see any regression at all.

To me this presents a very narrow point of view, and just like much of Luke’s character development seems to be ignored, reducing him down to his mistakes at some moment in the past, so too the Jedi are reduced to their mistakes at the darkest time in their history. Like Luke there is much more to the Jedi than their mistakes at a specific moment in time. The Jedi guarded the peace in the galaxy for over a thousand generations. That to me is clear proof, that the Jedi code works, and that Luke in TLJ was turned into a fool, not being able to look beyond the flaws of a couple of individual Jedi, who by no means seem to be representative of the Jedi over their millenia long history.

I mean, yeah, Luke is looking at it the wrong way, and he’s ultimately proven to be wrong. But Luke is no fool. All we know about the Jedi is that they were the guardians of peace for a thousands generations, but even that doesn’t mean there were a thousand generations of peace. They were exerting their will of the Force over the galaxy. Luke only cites the rise of Darth Sidious and the creation of Vader (because these are things we can connect to as we’ve seen those films), but the whole point of him being on the island is to study the long history of the Jedi, and this is the conclusion he came to, that the Jedi must end. You can nitpick that they didn’t give you sufficient explanation, but in my opinion the implication is clear, that there are more flaws to the order than just the ones we’ve seen in the films.

But why allude to some unknown flaws, deflating the Jedi as a whole, only to then go back to business as usual? That seems pretty pointless, to just use it as a plot device to keep Luke in one place up till, and for the duration of the story, have him repeating how he has good reasons for wanting the Jedi to end, only to have him recant, when it’s convenient for the writer of the story. That’s my issue with this kind of storytelling. There appears to be more to the story, but we are never shown. I just read a comic about Kylo Ren and Snoke, and there’s more development of both characters in those 20 pages then there ever was in the movies. Such character development would go a long way in providing some much needed emotional resonance to Kylo’s betrayal in TLJ.

What do you mean, “unknown flaws?” The flaws of the Jedi order were clearly shown in both the prequels and the OT. They considered emotion to be a weakness, they focused more on “maintaining balance” than actually helping the galaxy, and their blindness to the world around them allowed Palpatine to take over. And Luke didn’t just magically change his mind because the writer felt like it, the advice of his old master convinced him to put the flaws of the old order behind him and focus on creating a new order. I don’t know where you’re coming from with the “no character development” thing.

Not just Yoda’s advice (though of course that was the final thing that solidified his return), but there are many moments that bring him closer to his final change of heart. It is a gradual development that takes place over the course of the film.

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DrDre said:

StarkillerAG said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Actually the Luke of TLJ is the one who has finally internalized the lessons of TESB. Rey says herself that Luke is purposefully ignoring his success in ROTJ (which repudiated Yoda and Obi-wan), but he has a reason for doing so - saving Anakin did not destroy the Death Star in the short term, nor the Empire in the long term. On the contrary, Luke sees his victory there and elsewhere as having a direct line to his hubris in training Ben.

And anyway, Luke in ROTJ is very pointedly not able to avoid the emotions affiliated with the dark side. He brings his weapon with him when he goes to see Vader. He gives in to his fear, anger, and hatred. It is only when he is on the verge of killing his father does his rationality come in, and he realizes what he has done - it is an exact mirror of the flashback in TLJ. Of course the argument then is that “he should have known better.” Well fine if you feel that way. But in my mind, the dark side is a constant temptation, and the factors leading to that moment in Ben’s hut were such that Luke was, in his arrogance, unaware of what he was getting into (it was a far more subversive challenge than the explicit manipulation of the Emperor on the Death Star). This arrogance is of course a mirror to the arrogance of the Jedi in the PT not realizing the fear and the anger they were giving into, which caused their downfall. Luke, seeing the cycle of things he’s found himself perpetuating, decides to end the Jedi for good. I don’t see any regression at all.

To me this presents a very narrow point of view, and just like much of Luke’s character development seems to be ignored, reducing him down to his mistakes at some moment in the past, so too the Jedi are reduced to their mistakes at the darkest time in their history. Like Luke there is much more to the Jedi than their mistakes at a specific moment in time. The Jedi guarded the peace in the galaxy for over a thousand generations. That to me is clear proof, that the Jedi code works, and that Luke in TLJ was turned into a fool, not being able to look beyond the flaws of a couple of individual Jedi, who by no means seem to be representative of the Jedi over their millenia long history.

I mean, yeah, Luke is looking at it the wrong way, and he’s ultimately proven to be wrong. But Luke is no fool. All we know about the Jedi is that they were the guardians of peace for a thousands generations, but even that doesn’t mean there were a thousand generations of peace. They were exerting their will of the Force over the galaxy. Luke only cites the rise of Darth Sidious and the creation of Vader (because these are things we can connect to as we’ve seen those films), but the whole point of him being on the island is to study the long history of the Jedi, and this is the conclusion he came to, that the Jedi must end. You can nitpick that they didn’t give you sufficient explanation, but in my opinion the implication is clear, that there are more flaws to the order than just the ones we’ve seen in the films.

Yet, Luke then changes his mind.

He doesn’t change his mind about the Jedi, he changes his mind about helping the Resistance. This is shown very well in the Yoda scene. Yoda tells Luke that the teachings of the Jedi were flawed, and tells Luke to pass on everything he learned, both success and failure. Luke still believes that the old Jedi were flawed, but he decides to create a new order of Jedi, learning from the failures of the old.

I didn’t hear anything about a new order of Jedi. All I saw was Yoda chastising Luke for not living up to his potential as a Jedi.

You obviously weren’t paying attention during that scene. Yoda specifically says:

“Heeded my words not, did you. Pass on what you have learned. Strength, mastery, but weakness, folly, failure also. Yes, failure most of all. The greatest teacher, failure is. Luke, we are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters.”

It was Luke who chose to only see the Jedi through the lens of his own failure, and thus couldn’t see the bigger picture.

Yes, but Yoda’s speech allowed Luke to see the bigger picture. Once again, the quote above clearly contradicts the point you’re trying to make.

Myself, the boy, two droids, and no questions asked.

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Time
 (Edited)

StarkillerAG said:

DrDre said:

StarkillerAG said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Actually the Luke of TLJ is the one who has finally internalized the lessons of TESB. Rey says herself that Luke is purposefully ignoring his success in ROTJ (which repudiated Yoda and Obi-wan), but he has a reason for doing so - saving Anakin did not destroy the Death Star in the short term, nor the Empire in the long term. On the contrary, Luke sees his victory there and elsewhere as having a direct line to his hubris in training Ben.

And anyway, Luke in ROTJ is very pointedly not able to avoid the emotions affiliated with the dark side. He brings his weapon with him when he goes to see Vader. He gives in to his fear, anger, and hatred. It is only when he is on the verge of killing his father does his rationality come in, and he realizes what he has done - it is an exact mirror of the flashback in TLJ. Of course the argument then is that “he should have known better.” Well fine if you feel that way. But in my mind, the dark side is a constant temptation, and the factors leading to that moment in Ben’s hut were such that Luke was, in his arrogance, unaware of what he was getting into (it was a far more subversive challenge than the explicit manipulation of the Emperor on the Death Star). This arrogance is of course a mirror to the arrogance of the Jedi in the PT not realizing the fear and the anger they were giving into, which caused their downfall. Luke, seeing the cycle of things he’s found himself perpetuating, decides to end the Jedi for good. I don’t see any regression at all.

To me this presents a very narrow point of view, and just like much of Luke’s character development seems to be ignored, reducing him down to his mistakes at some moment in the past, so too the Jedi are reduced to their mistakes at the darkest time in their history. Like Luke there is much more to the Jedi than their mistakes at a specific moment in time. The Jedi guarded the peace in the galaxy for over a thousand generations. That to me is clear proof, that the Jedi code works, and that Luke in TLJ was turned into a fool, not being able to look beyond the flaws of a couple of individual Jedi, who by no means seem to be representative of the Jedi over their millenia long history.

I mean, yeah, Luke is looking at it the wrong way, and he’s ultimately proven to be wrong. But Luke is no fool. All we know about the Jedi is that they were the guardians of peace for a thousands generations, but even that doesn’t mean there were a thousand generations of peace. They were exerting their will of the Force over the galaxy. Luke only cites the rise of Darth Sidious and the creation of Vader (because these are things we can connect to as we’ve seen those films), but the whole point of him being on the island is to study the long history of the Jedi, and this is the conclusion he came to, that the Jedi must end. You can nitpick that they didn’t give you sufficient explanation, but in my opinion the implication is clear, that there are more flaws to the order than just the ones we’ve seen in the films.

Yet, Luke then changes his mind.

He doesn’t change his mind about the Jedi, he changes his mind about helping the Resistance. This is shown very well in the Yoda scene. Yoda tells Luke that the teachings of the Jedi were flawed, and tells Luke to pass on everything he learned, both success and failure. Luke still believes that the old Jedi were flawed, but he decides to create a new order of Jedi, learning from the failures of the old.

I didn’t hear anything about a new order of Jedi. All I saw was Yoda chastising Luke for not living up to his potential as a Jedi.

You obviously weren’t paying attention during that scene. Yoda specifically says:

“Heeded my words not, did you. Pass on what you have learned. Strength, mastery, but weakness, folly, failure also. Yes, failure most of all. The greatest teacher, failure is. Luke, we are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters.”

It was Luke who chose to only see the Jedi through the lens of his own failure, and thus couldn’t see the bigger picture.

Yes, but Yoda’s speech allowed Luke to see the bigger picture. Once again, the quote above clearly contradicts the point you’re trying to make.

No it doesn’t. There is nothing in Yoda’s lesson to Luke, that indicates he’s presenting Luke with some new insight, that did not exist when the Jedi were in their prime. In fact Yoda saying “heeded my words not”, suggests the opposite of what you are suggesting. What Yoda is telling Luke is, that he did not do as he was taught. He should not only pass on his successes, but also allow others to learn from his failures, a lesson he probably gave to many Jedi in the past.

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DrDre said:

[yotsuya said:]
If you don’t think he would act that way or be discouraged then I think you have missed something about the entire saga. Try watching TESB and TLJ back to back. Then tell me that TLJ isn’t in character. Yes, in ROTJ, he is more confident, but confidence can be shattered easily. Luke has shown that to be the case. Insisting that he maintain the confidence that he has for most of ROTJ is unrealistic. The unsure Luke we see in ANH and TESB is just hiding under the surface in ROTJ and only needed a sufficiently horrible event to bring it out.

In my view you missed something in the saga, because you keep going back to TESB to argue Luke in TLJ is consistent with his portrayal in the OT. The problem is you view Luke as this flawed static character. Luke in ROTJ is just the same character as in TESB with a little more confidence. Take that confidence away, and add a few years and you have Luke from TLJ. However, you ignore much of Luke’s character development in the OT. The Luke that let himself fall to his death rather than accept Vader’s offer, is not the same character as the one who left Yoda and Obi-Wan on Dagobah, and that’s without considering the time he’s had to reflect on the consequences of his actions. Then there’s his development in ROTJ, where after being goaded by Palpatine, and Vader to release his anger, at that seminal moment he realizes he will follow in his father’s footsteps, if he doesn’t let go of his fear, and anger. So, he throws away his weapon, and declares himself a Jedi. These are scenes of critical character development, that you just seem to ignore. The Luke at the end of ROTJ is not the impetuous naive, youth we met in ANH, nor is he the impatient hothead from TESB, nor is he the overconfident Jedi wannabe at the start of ROTJ. He is a fullfledged Jedi, in tune with the Force, and able to avoid emotions affiliated with the dark side of the, such as fear, anger and hatred. That is his arc in the OT, his hero’s journey. You say:

“Try watching TESB and TLJ back to back. Then tell me that TLJ isn’t in character.”

What you’re really saying for the Luke of TLJ to be in character, he has to regress back to the character he was, when he first entered the cave on Dagobah. To me that’s one of the running themes in the ST: regression. Han regressed back to smuggler, Leia regressed back to the leader of a fledgeling rebellion, the galaxy regressed back to the Galactic Civil War, and Luke regressed back to his younger stupid self.

No, I’m not saying Luke is static. I’m saying people have traits and those traits (good or bad) don’t just go away. Luke in TESB and Luke in ROTJ are one and the same, but different traits dominate. Luke in TLJ has reverted back to some of those old traits in TESB and ANH. They are some of his character flaws. And what I am saying is quite different from what you are saying. I’m saying that due to the horrible event of the destruction of the new Jedi academy, Luke has retreated back and let his character flaws show. Quite the opposite of what you seemed to want him to be that he would be unaffected by such a horrible event and maintain this Buddha like state of enlightenment without being impacted. You are the one saying he should not change when we are presented with events that would change just about anyone.

And Luke is not a full fledged Jedi in ROTJ. Yoda states that when Luke goes to see him. He is not a Jedi until the end of the movie when he throws down his lightsaber. Not until he faces Vader and the Emperor and stands fast to Yoda and Ben’s teachings is he a Jedi.

And what is wrong with regression when the need arises. The story setup is that a powerful remnant of the Empire is now threatening the Republic. Leia would naturally take up that challenge. And if Leia and Han split up, why wouldn’t Han retreat to what he knows so well. As for Luke, it is only a horrific tragedy that has led him to regress (I wouldn’t call the others regressing but just circling back to things they are good at). You seem to have a problem that our world runs in cycles and that the ST is showing us that. A new generation faces similar challenges and how will they cope… how will the win. And the key moment that has led to TFA is the fall of Ben Solo. That even has triggered just about everything we are seeing in the ST. Mother, father, and uncle are deeply impacted by it and the Galaxy is as well because of how he fell. The premise is set in TFA and TLJ just follows through with it. TROS will complete the story and I think will make things make a lot more sense. They have not been telling a simple tale with the ST and I think some of the complexity will not be revealed until the end.

That Luke could not experience something to break him and bring out his character flaws really ignores the real impact of tragic events on people. Yes, Luke was the hero of the OT. But we are passed that now. Life does not end with “they all lived happily ever after” and it is not in the nature of the serials Lucas started from. Happiness and success only last until the next event. Why you expect Luke to remain exactly where he was at the end of ROTJ is beyond me. TLJ shows us a Luke who is wise and jaded. He knows the force, knows it’s lessons, knows the history of the Jedi and has cut himself off because he could not protect his nephew. He is not static by any means. He is a fleshed out character who is exactly what I would expect after such a tragedy. His youthful character flaws are still there, but the person they appear in is not the same. It creates a very rich and interesting character to watch on screen. And Mark played it perfectly. Much more interesting than what you have suggested. And, if I may say so, much like some of the characters in the early drafts of The Star Wars. So I find his the TLJ version of Luke to be absolutely perfect for what the character has been through and where he should be 30 years passed ROTJ.

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DrDre said:

StarkillerAG said:

DrDre said:

StarkillerAG said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Actually the Luke of TLJ is the one who has finally internalized the lessons of TESB. Rey says herself that Luke is purposefully ignoring his success in ROTJ (which repudiated Yoda and Obi-wan), but he has a reason for doing so - saving Anakin did not destroy the Death Star in the short term, nor the Empire in the long term. On the contrary, Luke sees his victory there and elsewhere as having a direct line to his hubris in training Ben.

And anyway, Luke in ROTJ is very pointedly not able to avoid the emotions affiliated with the dark side. He brings his weapon with him when he goes to see Vader. He gives in to his fear, anger, and hatred. It is only when he is on the verge of killing his father does his rationality come in, and he realizes what he has done - it is an exact mirror of the flashback in TLJ. Of course the argument then is that “he should have known better.” Well fine if you feel that way. But in my mind, the dark side is a constant temptation, and the factors leading to that moment in Ben’s hut were such that Luke was, in his arrogance, unaware of what he was getting into (it was a far more subversive challenge than the explicit manipulation of the Emperor on the Death Star). This arrogance is of course a mirror to the arrogance of the Jedi in the PT not realizing the fear and the anger they were giving into, which caused their downfall. Luke, seeing the cycle of things he’s found himself perpetuating, decides to end the Jedi for good. I don’t see any regression at all.

To me this presents a very narrow point of view, and just like much of Luke’s character development seems to be ignored, reducing him down to his mistakes at some moment in the past, so too the Jedi are reduced to their mistakes at the darkest time in their history. Like Luke there is much more to the Jedi than their mistakes at a specific moment in time. The Jedi guarded the peace in the galaxy for over a thousand generations. That to me is clear proof, that the Jedi code works, and that Luke in TLJ was turned into a fool, not being able to look beyond the flaws of a couple of individual Jedi, who by no means seem to be representative of the Jedi over their millenia long history.

I mean, yeah, Luke is looking at it the wrong way, and he’s ultimately proven to be wrong. But Luke is no fool. All we know about the Jedi is that they were the guardians of peace for a thousands generations, but even that doesn’t mean there were a thousand generations of peace. They were exerting their will of the Force over the galaxy. Luke only cites the rise of Darth Sidious and the creation of Vader (because these are things we can connect to as we’ve seen those films), but the whole point of him being on the island is to study the long history of the Jedi, and this is the conclusion he came to, that the Jedi must end. You can nitpick that they didn’t give you sufficient explanation, but in my opinion the implication is clear, that there are more flaws to the order than just the ones we’ve seen in the films.

Yet, Luke then changes his mind.

He doesn’t change his mind about the Jedi, he changes his mind about helping the Resistance. This is shown very well in the Yoda scene. Yoda tells Luke that the teachings of the Jedi were flawed, and tells Luke to pass on everything he learned, both success and failure. Luke still believes that the old Jedi were flawed, but he decides to create a new order of Jedi, learning from the failures of the old.

I didn’t hear anything about a new order of Jedi. All I saw was Yoda chastising Luke for not living up to his potential as a Jedi.

You obviously weren’t paying attention during that scene. Yoda specifically says:

“Heeded my words not, did you. Pass on what you have learned. Strength, mastery, but weakness, folly, failure also. Yes, failure most of all. The greatest teacher, failure is. Luke, we are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters.”

It was Luke who chose to only see the Jedi through the lens of his own failure, and thus couldn’t see the bigger picture.

Yes, but Yoda’s speech allowed Luke to see the bigger picture. Once again, the quote above clearly contradicts the point you’re trying to make.

No it doesn’t. There is nothing in Yoda’s lesson to Luke, that indicates he’s presenting Luke with some new insight, that did not exist when the Jedi were in their prime.

I never said anything like that. Yoda isn’t giving Luke some revolutionary insight, he’s telling Luke what he already knows deep down.

In fact Yoda saying “heeded my words not”, suggests the opposite of what you are suggesting. What Yoda is telling Luke is, that he did not do as he was taught.

Yes, that’s exactly what Yoda said. But the scene isn’t just about scolding Luke for his mistakes, it’s about teaching Luke to learn from his mistakes.

He should not only pass on his successes, but also allow others to learn from his failures, a lesson he probably gave to many Jedi in the past.

That’s the problem though. He didn’t give that lesson to Jedi in the past, which resulted in their downfall.

Myself, the boy, two droids, and no questions asked.

Author
Time

DrDre said:

StarkillerAG said:

DrDre said:

StarkillerAG said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Actually the Luke of TLJ is the one who has finally internalized the lessons of TESB. Rey says herself that Luke is purposefully ignoring his success in ROTJ (which repudiated Yoda and Obi-wan), but he has a reason for doing so - saving Anakin did not destroy the Death Star in the short term, nor the Empire in the long term. On the contrary, Luke sees his victory there and elsewhere as having a direct line to his hubris in training Ben.

And anyway, Luke in ROTJ is very pointedly not able to avoid the emotions affiliated with the dark side. He brings his weapon with him when he goes to see Vader. He gives in to his fear, anger, and hatred. It is only when he is on the verge of killing his father does his rationality come in, and he realizes what he has done - it is an exact mirror of the flashback in TLJ. Of course the argument then is that “he should have known better.” Well fine if you feel that way. But in my mind, the dark side is a constant temptation, and the factors leading to that moment in Ben’s hut were such that Luke was, in his arrogance, unaware of what he was getting into (it was a far more subversive challenge than the explicit manipulation of the Emperor on the Death Star). This arrogance is of course a mirror to the arrogance of the Jedi in the PT not realizing the fear and the anger they were giving into, which caused their downfall. Luke, seeing the cycle of things he’s found himself perpetuating, decides to end the Jedi for good. I don’t see any regression at all.

To me this presents a very narrow point of view, and just like much of Luke’s character development seems to be ignored, reducing him down to his mistakes at some moment in the past, so too the Jedi are reduced to their mistakes at the darkest time in their history. Like Luke there is much more to the Jedi than their mistakes at a specific moment in time. The Jedi guarded the peace in the galaxy for over a thousand generations. That to me is clear proof, that the Jedi code works, and that Luke in TLJ was turned into a fool, not being able to look beyond the flaws of a couple of individual Jedi, who by no means seem to be representative of the Jedi over their millenia long history.

I mean, yeah, Luke is looking at it the wrong way, and he’s ultimately proven to be wrong. But Luke is no fool. All we know about the Jedi is that they were the guardians of peace for a thousands generations, but even that doesn’t mean there were a thousand generations of peace. They were exerting their will of the Force over the galaxy. Luke only cites the rise of Darth Sidious and the creation of Vader (because these are things we can connect to as we’ve seen those films), but the whole point of him being on the island is to study the long history of the Jedi, and this is the conclusion he came to, that the Jedi must end. You can nitpick that they didn’t give you sufficient explanation, but in my opinion the implication is clear, that there are more flaws to the order than just the ones we’ve seen in the films.

Yet, Luke then changes his mind.

He doesn’t change his mind about the Jedi, he changes his mind about helping the Resistance. This is shown very well in the Yoda scene. Yoda tells Luke that the teachings of the Jedi were flawed, and tells Luke to pass on everything he learned, both success and failure. Luke still believes that the old Jedi were flawed, but he decides to create a new order of Jedi, learning from the failures of the old.

I didn’t hear anything about a new order of Jedi. All I saw was Yoda chastising Luke for not living up to his potential as a Jedi.

You obviously weren’t paying attention during that scene. Yoda specifically says:

“Heeded my words not, did you. Pass on what you have learned. Strength, mastery, but weakness, folly, failure also. Yes, failure most of all. The greatest teacher, failure is. Luke, we are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters.”

It was Luke who chose to only see the Jedi through the lens of his own failure, and thus couldn’t see the bigger picture.

Yes, but Yoda’s speech allowed Luke to see the bigger picture. Once again, the quote above clearly contradicts the point you’re trying to make.

No it doesn’t. There is nothing in Yoda’s lesson to Luke, that indicates he’s presenting Luke with some new insight, that did not exist when the Jedi were in their prime. In fact Yoda saying “heeded my words not”, suggests the opposite of what you are suggesting. What Yoda is telling Luke is, that he did not do as he was taught. He should not only pass on his successes, but also allow others to learn from his failures, a lesson he probably gave to many Jedi in the past.

Um… yes, he is presenting Luke with a new lesson that Luke has not had before. He may have used it before the heyday of the Jedi, but it is not among the lesson’s we saw him teach Luke and the way the dialog is written makes it clear that he had only told Luke to pass on what he had learned without specifying that his failures were included in that. So this was a new lesson for Luke.

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yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

StarkillerAG said:

DrDre said:

StarkillerAG said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Actually the Luke of TLJ is the one who has finally internalized the lessons of TESB. Rey says herself that Luke is purposefully ignoring his success in ROTJ (which repudiated Yoda and Obi-wan), but he has a reason for doing so - saving Anakin did not destroy the Death Star in the short term, nor the Empire in the long term. On the contrary, Luke sees his victory there and elsewhere as having a direct line to his hubris in training Ben.

And anyway, Luke in ROTJ is very pointedly not able to avoid the emotions affiliated with the dark side. He brings his weapon with him when he goes to see Vader. He gives in to his fear, anger, and hatred. It is only when he is on the verge of killing his father does his rationality come in, and he realizes what he has done - it is an exact mirror of the flashback in TLJ. Of course the argument then is that “he should have known better.” Well fine if you feel that way. But in my mind, the dark side is a constant temptation, and the factors leading to that moment in Ben’s hut were such that Luke was, in his arrogance, unaware of what he was getting into (it was a far more subversive challenge than the explicit manipulation of the Emperor on the Death Star). This arrogance is of course a mirror to the arrogance of the Jedi in the PT not realizing the fear and the anger they were giving into, which caused their downfall. Luke, seeing the cycle of things he’s found himself perpetuating, decides to end the Jedi for good. I don’t see any regression at all.

To me this presents a very narrow point of view, and just like much of Luke’s character development seems to be ignored, reducing him down to his mistakes at some moment in the past, so too the Jedi are reduced to their mistakes at the darkest time in their history. Like Luke there is much more to the Jedi than their mistakes at a specific moment in time. The Jedi guarded the peace in the galaxy for over a thousand generations. That to me is clear proof, that the Jedi code works, and that Luke in TLJ was turned into a fool, not being able to look beyond the flaws of a couple of individual Jedi, who by no means seem to be representative of the Jedi over their millenia long history.

I mean, yeah, Luke is looking at it the wrong way, and he’s ultimately proven to be wrong. But Luke is no fool. All we know about the Jedi is that they were the guardians of peace for a thousands generations, but even that doesn’t mean there were a thousand generations of peace. They were exerting their will of the Force over the galaxy. Luke only cites the rise of Darth Sidious and the creation of Vader (because these are things we can connect to as we’ve seen those films), but the whole point of him being on the island is to study the long history of the Jedi, and this is the conclusion he came to, that the Jedi must end. You can nitpick that they didn’t give you sufficient explanation, but in my opinion the implication is clear, that there are more flaws to the order than just the ones we’ve seen in the films.

Yet, Luke then changes his mind.

He doesn’t change his mind about the Jedi, he changes his mind about helping the Resistance. This is shown very well in the Yoda scene. Yoda tells Luke that the teachings of the Jedi were flawed, and tells Luke to pass on everything he learned, both success and failure. Luke still believes that the old Jedi were flawed, but he decides to create a new order of Jedi, learning from the failures of the old.

I didn’t hear anything about a new order of Jedi. All I saw was Yoda chastising Luke for not living up to his potential as a Jedi.

You obviously weren’t paying attention during that scene. Yoda specifically says:

“Heeded my words not, did you. Pass on what you have learned. Strength, mastery, but weakness, folly, failure also. Yes, failure most of all. The greatest teacher, failure is. Luke, we are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters.”

It was Luke who chose to only see the Jedi through the lens of his own failure, and thus couldn’t see the bigger picture.

Yes, but Yoda’s speech allowed Luke to see the bigger picture. Once again, the quote above clearly contradicts the point you’re trying to make.

No it doesn’t. There is nothing in Yoda’s lesson to Luke, that indicates he’s presenting Luke with some new insight, that did not exist when the Jedi were in their prime. In fact Yoda saying “heeded my words not”, suggests the opposite of what you are suggesting. What Yoda is telling Luke is, that he did not do as he was taught. He should not only pass on his successes, but also allow others to learn from his failures, a lesson he probably gave to many Jedi in the past.

Um… yes, he is presenting Luke with a new lesson that Luke has not had before. He may have used it before the heyday of the Jedi, but it is not among the lesson’s we saw him teach Luke and the way the dialog is written makes it clear that he had only told Luke to pass on what he had learned without specifying that his failures were included in that. So this was a new lesson for Luke.

Well, the last time Yoda mentioned failure to Luke, it was a grim “that is why you fail” after the even more absolute “do or do not, there is no try”. No wonder the poor guy didn’t consider failure as a good thing!

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I don’t have a problem with Leia using the Force. I don’t like the “flying Leia” scene because it looked really ridiculous (maybe it’s the CGI or the way it was shot).

Adywan’s Star Wars Revisited edits are to Blade Runner: The Final Cut as the original theatrical releases of the original trilogy are to the original version of Blade Runner.

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I suspect the wardrobe given to Carrie Fisher didn’t help. The way that dark dress billowed around her made for a disturbing resemblance to Mary Poppins.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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ATMachine said:

I suspect the wardrobe given to Carrie Fisher didn’t help. The way that dark dress billowed around her made for a disturbing resemblance to Mary Poppins.

Still not sure why JJ put her in a dress at the end of TFA instead of leaving her in the more tactical wardrobe from earlier in the film. She’s the leader of a military faction, not a dignitary. And then considering TLJ is meant to pick up immediately afterwards, why is she again in a new get-up?

This is the stuff that keeps me up at night. Not those common complaints like Leia Poppins and Mary Sue and Giant Space Walrus Milking lol.

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In regards to why she changed out of the tactical wardrobe, I believe Carrie Fisher requested it.

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I’m still trying to figure out why Luke, if he wanted to be left to die, and wanted the Jedi to end, goes to the planet where there is a Force tree, and where the first Jedi Temple set up shop.

How in the hell does that make any sense?

And who gave Tekka that piece of the map?
And why let R2-D2 have the rest of the map if he didn’t want to be found?

Just poor plot devices to drive a poor narrative forward.

The whole thing is an utter mess of nonsense starting with The Force Awakens.

“Anakin had those qualities so rarely seen, exuding an unmistakable confidence and yet still able to touch one’s heart in simply knowing how he was so flawed… wounded.”

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Darth Hade said:

I’m still trying to figure out why Luke, if he wanted to be left to die, and wanted the Jedi to end, goes to the planet where there is a Force tree, and where the first Jedi Temple set up shop.

How in the hell does that make any sense?

And who gave Tekka that piece of the map?
And why let R2-D2 have the rest of the map if he didn’t want to be found?

Just poor plot devices to drive a poor narrative forward.

The whole thing is an utter mess of nonsense starting with The Force Awakens.

The answers you seek are in this thread (or the TLJ Ratings/Opinion thread) - having already been discussed a few times 😉

Good luck with it mate 😃
 

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

I find that answer vague and unconvincing. Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves?
Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

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Funny, reading some of the comics, and having some debates here have helped me accept what is, and let go of what might have been. I watched TLJ the other day, and I actually enjoyed it for the most part.

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Hey man! Happy to hear you enjoyed it some more in your most recent viewing! Hope your day is going well.

Do you think you just enjoyed it more in a general sense, or were there specific things that you noticed you kinda liked this time around?