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Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 162

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Pickle2503 said:

What do you guys think about them announcing episode 10, 11, and 12 today?

I’m interested in how they’re going to make a crossover between the Canon and Legends universes.

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Zachary VIII said:

Pickle2503 said:

What do you guys think about them announcing episode 10, 11, and 12 today?

I’m interested in how they’re going to make a crossover between the Canon and Legends universes.

A giant extradimensional sarlacc eats them both, and as they are slowly digested over a thousand years, their respective cosmic juices mix. . . .

“Happy Halloween, ladies!”

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DuracellEnergizer said:

Zachary VIII said:

Pickle2503 said:

What do you guys think about them announcing episode 10, 11, and 12 today?

I’m interested in how they’re going to make a crossover between the Canon and Legends universes.

A giant extradimensional sarlacc eats them both, and as they are slowly digested over a thousand years, their respective cosmic juices mix. . . .

Oh yeah I heard abt that too!

I Don’t Even Like Pickles?

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For all the good elements in TLJ I have to admit I’m having a very difficult time accepting how RJ hit the reset button on the galaxy and its heroes. What doesn’t make sense to me is, that after the destruction of SKB the FO would reign the galaxy as stated in the opening crawl, later revised to controlling all major systems within weeks. Some here have claimed, that the FO doesn’t yet control the galaxy, and that the ending of the film suggests they might never reach that point, because of how inspired everyone is, because of Luke’s big illusion. However, this completely ignores the fact, that the Resistance suddenly becomes the rebellion again in this film, and is literally stated to be reborn by the end of it.

rebellion
/rɪˈbɛljən/
noun
an act of armed resistance to an established government or leader.
“the authorities put down a rebellion by landless colonials”
synonims: uprising, revolt, insurrection, mutiny, revolution, insurgence, insurgency, rising, rioting, riot.

In other words the Resistance can only become rebels, if the FO now represents the established government, otherwise the whole rebel designation makes no sense. For all its rehashing of ANH, and poor explaining of the bigger picture, TFA managed to at least present a state of the galaxy that seems pretty realistic. It makes sense that there would be Imperial remnants. It makes sense that Leia, given what she went through in the OT, would consider them a threat. It makes sense that the Republic, tired of war, would want to believe the FO can safely be ignored. In other words it provides a setup for a potentially very different conflict between a government struggling to maintain stability (and at what cost?), and a ruthless organization bent on terrorizing the galaxy, and destabalizing said government, whilst expanding its sphere of influence. However, despite the risks TLJ took in some of its character moments, its narrative outcome is a New Republic wiped from existence, and a tiny band of rebels resisting an Empire, the starting point of ANH. So, in terms of the big picture, the story has completely regressed back to where we started in 1977.

So much of what was established in the OT (and PT) was undone in the ST both from a narrative and a character perspective, and the best explanation we’ve been given thusfar is, that a lot can happen in thirty years (as long as what happens ultimately places us narratively in OT territory). Two of the big three turned into shells of their former selves, because of past failures that are only hinted at in flashbacks, and conversations, then find an ounce of redemption, and then die. Ben Solo was seduced by Snoke for some reason, Snoke was able to revive the Empire for some reason, the entire galaxy just gave up fighting once the Hosnian system was destroyed for some reason, the FO ends up with unlimited resources, despite the fact that SKB was destroyed for some reason. This kind of lazy storytelling to me is very unsatisfactory, and makes it very hard for me to get excited about the upcoming episode IX. For all the good acting, plot twists, great action and visuals, I can’t shake the sense, that the entire premise of the ST thusfar remains on very weak footing, and sadly fits perfectly in Disney’s currently successful business model of feeding off the nostalgia, that the general audience has for classic stories, whether it be through a modernized adaptation of the OT, or live remakes of their animated classics.

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I am sorry DrDre, I feel like you have already said these things before in this thread, on a few occasions? I apologize if not, yet I seem to have a feeling of deja vu when reading it.
It doesn’t make your well-made points any less valid, but I can now see why some people no longer wish to read this thread, or visit this thread, or talk about TLJ on here, if we are just going to repeat what we have already said again and again. My apologies again if I am wrong on this.
It is a shame we do not have a ‘what we didn’t like’ type thread, or ‘what they nailed’ type thread for TLJ, as there was for TFA and some of the other films on here, to maybe help keep topics and this thread from less repetition? Or a ‘what is the political situation of the Republic and First Order in the Sequel films’ thread?
I see start of posts saying like ‘for all the good things’ but people don’t then say what those things are. The same for those who post ‘for all the bad things’, and then mention focus or mention on the good. It comes across as empty lip service, to me anyway. Maybe mention what are all the good things you enjoyed actually are?

Tighten Up and then turn it all the way up to 11!

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Biggs Audio Dynamite said:

I am sorry DrDre, I feel like you have already said these things before in this thread, on a few occasions? I apologize if not, yet I seem to have a feeling of deja vu when reading it.
It doesn’t make your well-made points any less valid, but I can now see why some people no longer wish to read this thread, or visit this thread, or talk about TLJ on here, if we are just going to repeat what we have already said again and again. My apologies again if I am wrong on this.

You’re not entirely wrong, but in a way my post and your reaction to it are emblematic of the state of the franchise and the fandom.

“I feel like you have already said/shown these things before in this thread/franchise, on a few occasions? I apologize if not, yet I seem to have a feeling of deja vu when reading/watching it.”

Your sentiments about my post echo the sentiments of a lot of fans with regards to the franchise these days, but that’s not the whole story on my post.

It is a shame we do not have a ‘what we didn’t like’ type thread, or ‘what they nailed’ type thread for TLJ, as there was for TFA and some of the other films on here, to maybe help keep topics and this thread from less repetition? Or a ‘what is the political situation of the Republic and First Order in the Sequel films’ thread?
I see start of posts saying like ‘for all the good things’ but people don’t then say what those things are. The same for those who post ‘for all the bad things’, and then mention focus or mention on the good. It comes across as empty lip service, to me anyway. Maybe mention what are all the good things you enjoyed actually are?

I don’t think it’s empty lip service, since I’ve never pretended to actually truly like the film, although I’ve gone through phases where I like it more, and where I like it less. It’s a simple statement of fact, that I enjoyed some elements, some of which I’ve mentioned in the previous post (visuals, acting, some of the character moments, specifically the Luke/Rey/Kylo/Snoke dynamic, and Luke’s illusion, and its implications for the future of the rebellion at the end, though not his dying from it), but found the movie overall to be not very good, partly when seen on its own terms, but mostly when seen in context of the rest of the saga.

However, the main reason I made the last post actually comes from watching a few videos analyzing the business model of the Disney corporation, forming my own opinion on it in relation to the upcoming remakes of Aladdin, The Lion King , Mulan (in addition to Dumbo this year, and the slew of remakes or adaptations we got in previous years), placing the ST in that context, and not liking where things are headed. I started wondering why we as a movie viewing audience are so uncritical of this Trojan Horse in our wallets feeding on our nostalgia? I like a good remake, or adaptation just like the next person, but should the underlying corporate strategy that drives this business model affect our enjoyment of them, especially given Disney’s omnipresence, when every dollar that gets spent on remakes, and adaptations isn’t spent on new content? Why is TLJ celebrated as novel when so much of it is clearly a repetition of what we’ve seen before? Have we come to expect so little? Is changing the order of a few events, and some characters really enough to call this a new story? How will people in the future look back on this period of film making? Will TLJ be seen as this generation’s The Empire Strikes Back, and I just didn’t get it, or will it be seen as part of a trilogy, that is just one of many examples of Disney’s cynical (though competent) attempts to cash in on the golden goose, our nostalgia?

Let me end this post with the following question. Does the ST thusfar, and TLJ specifically fit within the Disney remake strategy: same meat, different gravy? If no, why not? If yes, is it a good thing, or a bad thing?

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So you are repeating yourself. Okay, thankyou for the clarification.

You ‘enjoyed some elements, some of which I’ve mentioned in the previous post (visuals, acting, some of the character moments, specifically the Luke/Rey/Kylo/Snoke dynamic, and Luke’s illusion, and its implications for the future of the rebellion at the end, though not his dying from it)’ - but that’s not lip service? Really? Okay then.

‘the main reason I made the last post actually comes from watching a few videos analyzing the business model of the Disney coorporation, and forming my own opinion on it in relation to the upcoming remakes of Aladdin, The Lion King , Mulan (in addition to Dumbo this year, and the slew of remakes or adaptations we got in previous years), and placing the ST in that context, and not liking where things are headed. I started wondering why we as a movie viewing audience are so uncritical of this Trojan Horse in our wallets feeding on our nostalgia? I like a good remake, or adaptation just like the next person, but should the underlying corporate strategy that drives this business model affect our enjoyment of them, especially when every dollar that gets spent on remakes, and adaptations isn’t spent on new content?’ - surely this is worthy of a new thread to discuss? rather than in here?

‘Let me end this post with the following question. Does the ST thusfar, and TLJ specifically fit within the Disney remake strategy: same meat, different gravy? If no, why not?’ what is the Disney remake strategy? In general, or for the ST? Again surely worthy of discussing in a new separate thread? (or a thread on these subjects, if one already exists? Though if so I suppose it would defer from the repeated reasons why TLJ is ‘X’ in here.

I said above that ‘I can now see why some people no longer wish to read this thread, or visit this thread, or talk about TLJ on here, if we are just going to repeat what we have already said again and again.’ I think I’ll be joining them in not visiting this thread further. Good luck with the future already repeated points in here.

Tighten Up and then turn it all the way up to 11!

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Biggs Audio Dynamite said:

‘the main reason I made the last post actually comes from watching a few videos analyzing the business model of the Disney coorporation, and forming my own opinion on it in relation to the upcoming remakes of Aladdin, The Lion King , Mulan (in addition to Dumbo this year, and the slew of remakes or adaptations we got in previous years), and placing the ST in that context, and not liking where things are headed. I started wondering why we as a movie viewing audience are so uncritical of this Trojan Horse in our wallets feeding on our nostalgia? I like a good remake, or adaptation just like the next person, but should the underlying corporate strategy that drives this business model affect our enjoyment of them, especially when every dollar that gets spent on remakes, and adaptations isn’t spent on new content?’ - surely this is worthy or a new thread to discuss? rather than in here?

‘Let me end this post with the following question. Does the ST thusfar, and TLJ specifically fit within the Disney remake strategy: same meat, different gravy? If no, why not?’ what is the Disney remake strategy? In general, or for the ST? Again surely worthy of discussing in a new separate thread? (or a thread on these subjects, if one already exists?

Why not in here? It relates to TLJ, and the creative choices within. It affects the enjoyment of TLJ to some of us here, and we might want to express that point of view. What are you suggesting, that we should only discuss TLJ in a positive light in this thread? You do not like reading critical posts, and so we should make separate threads, such that you can avoid them, and stay in your echo chamber? No, thank you. If you have a more interesting perspective on TLJ (positive or negative), I will be happy to discuss it with you, or anybody else. Maybe that would be a better strategy in the future. Take the time to write your own analysis open to scrutiny (on content), rather than to criticize other people’s posts, and where they put them. You want to discuss positive aspects of TLJ, then write a post, and argue your case.

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Dre - Not to speak for Biggs Audio Dynamite here, though I think she was stating you may get a wider, indepth and more meaningful (and maybe higher quality?) discussion on the issues like ‘Disney remake strategy’, either ‘in general, or for the ST?’, and other subjects mentioned in their own respective threads?

There’s a good chance of more people would likely know where to find them on the site, at least.
 

(bloody hell, Dre - you edit your posts quicker than me - impressive… 😉)
 

Edit: It doesn’t seem it is so much about positive or negative reviews or statements - or not liking to read critical posts, or be in an echo chamber - it’s the repetitiveness of them she was referring to? (ie, She ‘see start of posts saying like ‘for all the good things’ but people don’t then say what those things are. The same for those who post ‘for all the bad things’, and then mention focus or mention on the good. It comes across as empty lip service, to me anyway’.
 

Though you may be better asking that of BAD.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

I find that answer vague and unconvincing. Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves?
Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

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oojason said:

Dre - Not to speak for Biggs Audio Dynamite here, though I think she was stating you may get a wider, indepth and more meaningful (and maybe higher quality?) discussion on the issues like ‘Disney remake strategy’, either ‘in general, or for the ST?’, and other subjects mentioned in their own respective threads?

There’s a good chance of more people would likely know where to find them on the site, at least.
 

(bloody hell, Dre - you edit your posts quicker than me - impressive… 😉)
 

Edit: It doesn’t seem it is so much about positive or negative reviews or statements - or not liking to read critical posts, or be in an echo chamber - it’s the repetitiveness of them she was referring to? (ie, She ‘see start of posts saying like ‘for all the good things’ but people don’t then say what those things are. The same for those who post ‘for all the bad things’, and then mention focus or mention on the good. It comes across as empty lip service, to me anyway’.
 

Though you may be better asking that of BAD.

I get where she’s coming from, and I sympathise, but what started with a respectful post about repetiveness very quickly devolved into a post, which was dripping with sarcasm (in regards to lip service), and a rather angry undertone. I get that she’s annoyed, though.

Although, one might ask whether The same for those who post ‘for all the bad things’, and then mention focus or mention on the good might not be considered lip service as well, since I somehow doubt she would be so critical of a somewhat repetitive positive post in regards to TLJ? I could be wrong though, as she hasn’t been on this board very long. 😉

Anyway, I am interested what her opinion is of TLJ, and what positives she took from it. There are too few positive analyses of TLJ in this thread. That’s for sure.

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I suppose having the galactic state of affairs be somewhat of a parallel to things in the OT does offer something fittingly parallel for Luke to forsake, especially related to a new call to adventure with his father’s lightsaber.

I can see how TLJ, being written by someone receiving TFA as a complete entity in need of a follow-up, would want to set it up like that. It gives Luke something to rise to and comment on the phenomena of galactic civil war itself, transcending the concrete manifestations of it, just as Luke does so with himself, becoming a legend and departing this mortal coil.

PM me for links to my edits; apparently, some feel shy about this.

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Hal 9000 said:

I suppose having the galactic state of affairs be somewhat of a parallel to things in the OT does offer something fittingly parallel for Luke to forsake, especially related to a new call to adventure with his father’s lightsaber.

I can see how TLJ, being written by someone receiving TFA as a complete entity in need of a follow-up, would want to set it up like that. It gives Luke something to rise to and comment on the phenomena of galactic civil war itself, transcending the concrete manifestations of it, just as Luke does so with himself, becoming a legend and departing this mortal coil.

That is an interesting way of looking at it, although technically Luke did forsake his calling long before the FO took over so to speak. I also believe the same sentiment could have been achieved by having the New Republic losing ground rapidly in the wake of the events of TFA, rather than writing it out of the story, and turning the Resistance into rebels overnight. There were also interesting parallels to be made between the FO and terrorism in our real world, where Kylo Ren’s dedication to Snoke was similar to those indoctrinated by extremist ideologies; that and the FO’s position in TFA mirrored the position of the rebels in ANH, begging the question what the difference is between rebels and terrorists, and why Ben Solo might consider himself a rebel.

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DrDre said:

I started wondering why we as a movie viewing audience are so uncritical of this Trojan Horse in our wallets feeding on our nostalgia?

I don’t think this is just a recent Disney thing. I know guys who have had Trojans in their wallets for years.

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pleasehello said:

DrDre said:

I started wondering why we as a movie viewing audience are so uncritical of this Trojan Horse in our wallets feeding on our nostalgia?

I don’t think this is just a recent Disney thing. I know guys who have had Trojans in their wallets for years.

I agree, but it is the first time, that a company like Disney has this much power, and openly embraces the remake strategy with big budget remakes, adaptations, and sequels planned for years to come. Even Pixar which thusfar had a very good reputation for making original content, is now churning out mostly sequels to past hits. In this atmosphere we might expect Disney to keep milking existing Star Wars lore, rather than adding to it, or at most add to it in very small doses.

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A funny thing happened at work today that I thought could be good for discussing TLJ.
I work at a Maths Tutoring facility and was tutoring two ten year olds through their course work and we got on the topic of Star Wars for whatever reason, during that we were talking about the Prequels and the Originals, going over how the Wampa scene is freaking awesome and Darth Maul looks so scary.

They just kept telling me all of their favorite things about all of the movies, and in that same breathe of excitement for the orignals and the prequels one of the kids started describing the scene where Kylo kills Snoke as this amazing thing and how it was “so cool.” I know that us older fans are looking into the “Metaness” of all of the implications and the fact that were invested in where the story threads are going, but it really hit me how this kid didn’t think of any of that. All he saw was an amazing scene that he thought was so cool and showed Kylo’s genius.

I’m not trying to say that this in any way discounts the faults of TLJ or the perceived faults of Disney Star Wars, but it was so great to actually see it through a child’s eyes again.

Green is not a creative color

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dgraham414 said:

A funny thing happened at work today that I thought could be good for discussing TLJ.
I work at a Maths Tutoring facility and was tutoring two ten year olds through their course work and we got on the topic of Star Wars for whatever reason, during that we were talking about the Prequels and the Originals, going over how the Wampa scene is freaking awesome and Darth Maul looks so scary.

They just kept telling me all of their favorite things about all of the movies, and in that same breathe of excitement for the orignals and the prequels one of the kids started describing the scene where Kylo kills Snoke as this amazing thing and how it was “so cool.” I know that us older fans are looking into the “Metaness” of all of the implications and the fact that were invested in where the story threads are going, but it really hit me how this kid didn’t think of any of that. All he saw was an amazing scene that he thought was so cool and showed Kylo’s genius.

I’m not trying to say that this in any way discounts the faults of TLJ or the perceived faults of Disney Star Wars, but it was so great to actually see it through a child’s eyes again.

I personally feel the ST actually works better as a reboot of sorts than a natural continuation of an existing story, which in a sense is how children and new fans experience the story, without baggage so to speak.

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Biggs Audio Dynamite said:

So you are repeating yourself.

Everyone repeats themselves here. I don’t know why anyone bothers making new posts anymore; they may as well just quote themselves from months ago; it isn’t as if they’ve gained new insights or revised their opinions in the interim.

“Happy Halloween, ladies!”

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DuracellEnergizer said:

Biggs Audio Dynamite said:

So you are repeating yourself.

Everyone repeats themselves here. I don’t know why anyone bothers making new posts anymore; they may as well just quote themselves from months ago; it isn’t as if they’ve gained new insights or revised their opinions in the interim.

Some repeat themselves more than others. 😉

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Creox said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

Biggs Audio Dynamite said:

So you are repeating yourself.

Everyone repeats themselves here. I don’t know why anyone bothers making new posts anymore; they may as well just quote themselves from months ago; it isn’t as if they’ve gained new insights or revised their opinions in the interim.

Some repeat themselves more than others. 😉

[INSERT TIRED OLD ROTJ RANT HERE]

“Happy Halloween, ladies!”

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Creox said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

Biggs Audio Dynamite said:

So you are repeating yourself.

Everyone repeats themselves here. I don’t know why anyone bothers making new posts anymore; they may as well just quote themselves from months ago; it isn’t as if they’ve gained new insights or revised their opinions in the interim.

Some repeat themselves more than others. 😉

[INSERT TIRED OLD ANTI-CAPITALIST AND/OR ROTJ RANT HERE]

“Happy Halloween, ladies!”

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tfshirty said:

DominicCobb said:

tfshirty said:

pleasehello said:

Shopping Maul said:

Does anyone know how Rey/Chewie knew the circumstances of the ‘slow chase’ and how/where to come out of hyperspace in order to send Rey to Snoke’s ship?

Maybe they read the script 😉

The beacon. Finn gave it to Poe before he went gambling.

I think the question is how did Rey know that the First Order was there (as it’s a beacon to the Resistance). The simple explanation is that she saw their location as part of her vision when she touched hands with Ben.

Ah, I see that now. Thanks! And I agree with your explanation.

And Ben wouldn’t know her (and Luke’s) location as well ?

“I have to say that I felt George’s group of six films had more innovative visual imagination, and this film was more of a retrenchment to things you had seen before and characters you had seen before, and it took a few baby steps forward with new characters.” - James Cameron about Episode VII.

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Rey seemed to get more out of the mental link than Ben, and perhaps subconsciously was keeping her guard up. IIRC, he couldn’t see her surroundings, at least not in the first contact they had?

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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Indeed but Rey couldn’t see his surroundings as well, and their last meeting was fully on Rey’s side. Besides, if Snoke created the link, how come he doesn’t know Rey’s location either ?

“I have to say that I felt George’s group of six films had more innovative visual imagination, and this film was more of a retrenchment to things you had seen before and characters you had seen before, and it took a few baby steps forward with new characters.” - James Cameron about Episode VII.

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MalàStrana said:

tfshirty said:

DominicCobb said:

tfshirty said:

pleasehello said:

Shopping Maul said:

Does anyone know how Rey/Chewie knew the circumstances of the ‘slow chase’ and how/where to come out of hyperspace in order to send Rey to Snoke’s ship?

Maybe they read the script 😉

The beacon. Finn gave it to Poe before he went gambling.

I think the question is how did Rey know that the First Order was there (as it’s a beacon to the Resistance). The simple explanation is that she saw their location as part of her vision when she touched hands with Ben.

Ah, I see that now. Thanks! And I agree with your explanation.

And Ben wouldn’t know her (and Luke’s) location as well ?

What I’m suggesting is that Rey could see he was on the supremacy chasing the Resistance, not that she saw their exact coordinates (she was given a vision of future events - her “turning him”). She figured out where to find them with the tracker.