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Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 159

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oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

Aye, as from the original interview with DenOfGeek promoting the Knightfall tv series with some anecdotes on Star Wars and his life…

He’s made his peace with any unfulfilled expectations. ‘Listen, I never expected to come back. We had a beginning, a middle, and an end. That’s what I said: why mess with it? It’s not something that worries me, because it’s all about the new generation, as it should be.’

^ though for some reason that part of the DenOfGeek interview didn’t make it into the Esquire piece.

 

I did enjoy reading this from Hamill’s own twitter re the scene with Carrie in TLJ…

https://twitter.com/HamillHimself/status/1102308766672805889
 

That certainly was a great moment in the film, as was Mark’s wink to C-3PO.

And the R2 on the Falcon scene - don’t forget the R2 on the Falcon scene 😃

Indeed! 😃

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Mark should have got an Oscar nomination at least. He’s always had the acting chops. If not for the shadow of Luke hanging over him in the 80’s, he could have been cast in the Amadeus film after doing the role on Broadway.

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Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

Mark should have got an Oscar nomination at least. He’s always had the acting chops. If not for the shadow of Luke hanging over him in the 80’s, he could have been cast in the Amadeus film after doing the role on Broadway.

It’s easily the best performance I’ve seen from him. Kinda weird that he still has sour grapes about the direction considering how great the role was, but then I guess if you look at the full quote he understands how lucky he is to have gotten another crack it at all. Another trilogy with the old cast as the stars was never gonna happen at this point, and if it did, it would have probably sucked.

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DominicCobb said:

SilverWook said:

Mark should have got an Oscar nomination at least. He’s always had the acting chops. If not for the shadow of Luke hanging over him in the 80’s, he could have been cast in the Amadeus film after doing the role on Broadway.

It’s easily the best performance I’ve seen from him. Kinda weird that he still has sour grapes about the direction considering how great the role was, but then I guess if you look at the full quote he understands how lucky he is to have gotten another crack it at all. Another trilogy with the old cast as the stars was never gonna happen at this point, and if it did, it would have probably sucked.

I think most critics recognize Mark’s great performance, while still not liking the direction the saga has taken. I think it’s his best performance in the saga, but I just don’t buy the change in Luke’s character. It’s a great character, just not Luke Skywalker in my mind.

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

SilverWook said:

Mark should have got an Oscar nomination at least. He’s always had the acting chops. If not for the shadow of Luke hanging over him in the 80’s, he could have been cast in the Amadeus film after doing the role on Broadway.

It’s easily the best performance I’ve seen from him. Kinda weird that he still has sour grapes about the direction considering how great the role was, but then I guess if you look at the full quote he understands how lucky he is to have gotten another crack it at all. Another trilogy with the old cast as the stars was never gonna happen at this point, and if it did, it would have probably sucked.

I think most critics recognize Mark’s great performance, while still not liking the direction the saga has taken. I think it’s his best performance in the saga, but I just don’t buy the change in Luke’s character. It’s a great character, just not Luke Skywalker in my mind.

Do you really not buy it because it’s not believable? Or do you just not want to buy it out of stubbornness because you would have preferred something different? We’re talking a 30 year gap and a lot of experience and development in the interim for Luke. Frankly, it would’ve been less believable if he hadn’t changed.

TV’s Frink said:

I would put this in my sig if I weren’t so lazy.

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CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

SilverWook said:

Mark should have got an Oscar nomination at least. He’s always had the acting chops. If not for the shadow of Luke hanging over him in the 80’s, he could have been cast in the Amadeus film after doing the role on Broadway.

It’s easily the best performance I’ve seen from him. Kinda weird that he still has sour grapes about the direction considering how great the role was, but then I guess if you look at the full quote he understands how lucky he is to have gotten another crack it at all. Another trilogy with the old cast as the stars was never gonna happen at this point, and if it did, it would have probably sucked.

I think most critics recognize Mark’s great performance, while still not liking the direction the saga has taken. I think it’s his best performance in the saga, but I just don’t buy the change in Luke’s character. It’s a great character, just not Luke Skywalker in my mind.

Do you really not buy it because it’s not believable? Or do you just not want to buy it out of stubbornness because you would have preferred something different? We’re talking a 30 year gap and a lot of experience and development in the interim for Luke. Frankly, it would’ve been less believable if he hadn’t changed.

I just don’t find it believable, that a man who believed his father could be redeemed, a father who had been a true monster, guilty of the death of millions, would even for an instant contemplate killing his newphew, long enough to ignite his lightsaber, his sister, and best friend’s son, a boy who had done nothing, but have dark thoughts. I also don’t find it believable that he would see a solution in exiling himself, waiting to die, while Snoke and Kylo Ren were still at large. It is the obvious choice to try and stop Snoke and Kylo. If Luke fails, he dies, which means he will get his wish of ending the Jedi, if he wins, he can still go to an island to die. So, for me the movie failed to provide a proper motivation for Luke to be so emotionally compromised, that he would forget his Jedi training, knowing the future is always in motion, and raise his lightsaber above a young boy’s head. It also failed to explain why from Luke’s perspective letting Snoke and Kylo run free without a Jedi to challenge them would be the best solution for the galaxy. Had the movie shown that Ben Solo had hurt a loved one, I might have bought Luke’s reaction in Ben’s bedroom. Had the movie shown, that Luke tried to stop Snoke and Kylo, but failed, because he couldn’t hurt his sister, and best friend’s son, and only barely escaped with his life, I might have bought his exile, but TLJ did neither. It just says Luke’s different now, deal with it. That’s not good enough for me. Major character changes should imo happen on screen, not between films.

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DominicCobb said:

SilverWook said:

Mark should have got an Oscar nomination at least. He’s always had the acting chops. If not for the shadow of Luke hanging over him in the 80’s, he could have been cast in the Amadeus film after doing the role on Broadway.

It’s easily the best performance I’ve seen from him. Kinda weird that he still has sour grapes about the direction considering how great the role was, but then I guess if you look at the full quote he understands how lucky he is to have gotten another crack it at all. Another trilogy with the old cast as the stars was never gonna happen at this point, and if it did, it would have probably sucked.

Agreed.

Yub Nub for life

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DrDre said:

CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

SilverWook said:

Mark should have got an Oscar nomination at least. He’s always had the acting chops. If not for the shadow of Luke hanging over him in the 80’s, he could have been cast in the Amadeus film after doing the role on Broadway.

It’s easily the best performance I’ve seen from him. Kinda weird that he still has sour grapes about the direction considering how great the role was, but then I guess if you look at the full quote he understands how lucky he is to have gotten another crack it at all. Another trilogy with the old cast as the stars was never gonna happen at this point, and if it did, it would have probably sucked.

I think most critics recognize Mark’s great performance, while still not liking the direction the saga has taken. I think it’s his best performance in the saga, but I just don’t buy the change in Luke’s character. It’s a great character, just not Luke Skywalker in my mind.

Do you really not buy it because it’s not believable? Or do you just not want to buy it out of stubbornness because you would have preferred something different? We’re talking a 30 year gap and a lot of experience and development in the interim for Luke. Frankly, it would’ve been less believable if he hadn’t changed.

I just don’t find it believable, that a man who believed his father could be redeemed, a father who had been a true monster, guilty of the death of millions, would even for an instant contemplate killing his newphew, long enough to ignite his lightsaber, his sister, and best friend’s son, a boy who had done nothing, but have dark thoughts. I also don’t find it believable that he would see a solution in exiling himself, waiting to die, while Snoke and Kylo Ren were still at large. It is the obvious choice to try and stop Snoke and Kylo. If Luke fails, he dies, which means he will get his wish of ending the Jedi, if he wins, he can still go to an island to die. So, for me the movie failed to provide a proper motivation for Luke to be so emotionally compromised, that he would forget his Jedi training, knowing the future is always in motion, and raise his lightsaber above a young boy’s head. It also failed to explain why from Luke’s perspective letting Snoke and Kylo run free without a Jedi to challenge them would be the best solution for the galaxy. Had the movie shown that Ben Solo had hurt a loved one, I might have bought Luke’s reaction in Ben’s bedroom. Had the movie shown, that Luke tried to stop Snoke and Kylo, but failed, because he couldn’t hurt his sister, and best friend’s son, and only barely escaped with his life, I might have bought his exile, but TLJ did neither. It just says Luke’s different now, deal with it. That’s not good enough for me. Major character changes should imo happen on screen, not between films.

^ This (as usual 😉)

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Dr. Dre, while I disagree with you on a lot of your opinions on The Last Jedi, I like how you at least can explain the reasons why you don’t agree with certain things the movie did in a very articulated way. I can tell you’ve thought about it a lot. I can totally understand that viewpoint. I’m sure I would be of the same mindset too if it hadn’t clicked for me, personally.

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RogueLeader said:

Dr. Dre, while I disagree with you on a lot of your opinions on The Last Jedi, I like how you at least can explain the reasons why you don’t agree with certain things the movie did in a very articulated way. I can tell you’ve thought about it a lot. I can totally understand that viewpoint. I’m sure I would be of the same mindset too if it hadn’t clicked for me, personally.

Thanks for your kind response! 😃 The thing is, there’s a part of me, that enjoys many aspects of TLJ, and begs me to overlook some of the things I have issues with. On some days I give in, and I get that feeling in my stomach I used to have as a kid watching Star Wars when watching certain scenes, on other days I’m in a more critical mood.

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I totally get that, I can be that way too. And I do like the new films and I also know they aren’t perfect either. There are good and bad moments in them for sure, but I still like them overall despite my own criticisms. And I’m not trying to say, “One day you’ll understand!”, but I maybe eventually you’ll have a moment where you’re like, “Oh, I get it now.”

While I came out of the theater enjoying the movie, there have been times where I’ve listen/read to a lot of criticism and wondered if I was wrong, but eventually I came to my own conclusion about why it works for me, that I’ve since heard from others who enjoy the film. So, you might always hold the feeling you would have done it differently, but hopefully you can appreciate it for what it is more overtime, so you’ll be able to enjoy the saga as a whole more (I can’t recall what your opinion on the prequels are).

And even then, I still think that maybe dialogue could have been worked on here or there to make certain ideas clearer to more fans in general. I think most fans are cool with the general shape of the movie, they just would have liked it more if certain ideas were executed either a bit clearer or with more subtlety.

So, even if some people will never like TLJ as-is, I think maybe some eventual TLJ fan edits might be able to help bridge that gap for them.

Then again, there are also films that just gain more appreciation from an audience overtime, so it might be too early to say certain things could’ve been done differently. I think a big part of it is just gonna be time, when people can look at these movies more in retrospect.

Speaking of which, I don’t see you on the fan editing side of this site as much as I see you on the discussion or preservation sides. Are you into fan edits outside of preservations? You may have discussed these things before on here in the past but I’d be interested if you had any ideas for certain fixes TLJ could have done to make the movie work more for you. That might not be your cup of tea, and I’d get it if it’s not.

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RogueLeader said:

I totally get that, I can be that way too. And I do like the new films and I also know they aren’t perfect either. There are good and bad moments in them for sure, but I still like them overall despite my own criticisms. And I’m not trying to say, “One day you’ll understand!”, but I maybe eventually you’ll have a moment where you’re like, “Oh, I get it now.”

While I came out of the theater enjoying the movie, there have been times where I’ve listen/read to a lot of criticism and wondered if I was wrong, but eventually I came to my own conclusion about why it works for me, that I’ve since heard from others who enjoy the film. So, you might always hold the feeling you would have done it differently, but hopefully you can appreciate it for what it is more overtime, so you’ll be able to enjoy the saga as a whole more (I can’t recall what your opinion on the prequels are).

And even then, I still think that maybe dialogue could have been worked on here or there to make certain ideas clearer to more fans in general. I think most fans are cool with the general shape of the movie, they just would have liked it more if certain ideas were executed either a bit clearer or with more subtlety.

So, even if some people will never like TLJ as-is, I think maybe some eventual TLJ fan edits might be able to help bridge that gap for them.

Then again, there are also films that just gain more appreciation from an audience overtime, so it might be too early to say certain things could’ve been done differently. I think a big part of it is just gonna be time, when people can look at these movies more in retrospect.

Speaking of which, I don’t see you on the fan editing side of this site as much as I see you on the discussion or preservation sides. Are you into fan edits outside of preservations? You may have discussed these things before on here in the past but I’d be interested if you had any ideas for certain fixes TLJ could have done to make the movie work more for you. That might not be your cup of tea, and I’d get it if it’s not.

To be honest I have never completely watched a fan edit, outside of the Despecialized Editions. I view a movie as the translation of a director’s vision. I enjoy analyzing the concepts and ideas, and their execution. For example I enjoy the PT mostly for the concepts, and Lucas’ wildly imaginative vision, but dislike how it was executed. In the same way I respect RJ’s vision for this movie, even if I don’t agree with every aspect of that vision, or how it was executed. So, while I appreciate the effort put into fan edits, and enjoy watching some of it, I generally prefer the original version, even if I don’t like many aspects of it, because it is the result of a multi-year creative process, that someone put their heart and soul into. It is a window into that creative process, and the time during which it was made. In a way Mark Hamill’s comments, particulary in the documentaries included with the film, are part of that creative process, and so the movie not only reflects the creative choices, but also what could have been. TLJ through its story mechanisms actually puts a lot of emphasis on the what could have been. It’s part of its DNA. It’s the risk of relying heavily on plot twists, that a viewer may remain attached to a certain story thread, even if the director’s intent was to misdirect. For example to his credit RJ makes it plausible that Rey and Ben join forces after Snoke’s death, and then subverts the expectations created by the film, by having Rey and Ben revert to their previous states, and so their union becomes a what could have been, an outcome that I probably would have preferred.

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DrDre said:
To be honest I have never completely watched a fan edit, outside of the Despecialized Editions.

Same here. I’ve tried watching a few online and early on just became disinterested. Maybe I’ve just seen the theatrical releases so many times, that any sort of fan edit just feels bizarre.

The one I would be most interested in seeing would be where someone edited all the prequels into one movie. That sounds extremely appealing, but I’ve never seen it.

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May be worth giving adywan’s Revisited Edits a watch - for more of an alternative view into a ‘Special Edition’ (whilst still keeping the vibe, pacing and tone) of the Original Trilogy.

There are a few 3-in-1 Prequel Edits listed in the An Index Thread for Star Wars Fan Edits and Other Projects thread - along with some ‘Recommend me an Edit’ / ‘Best Edit?’ type threads too.
 

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here?
And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

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I very much enjoyed The Last Jedi, and was taken aback at some of the criticism of the movie online, much of it unjust and beyond much reason or proportional to watching a movie. There were a few parts of it that were okay or could have been better, though.
It is a shame that some people did not enjoy it, though I don’t see why that detracts from other Star Wars movies, past or future. Or repeat they do not like it, or hate it, over and over on youtube and facebook, many who liked it do not post over and again they like it.
You have seem to have some great Edits of the movie on here, for people who did not enjoy certain parts of it.

Tighten Up and then turn it all the way up to 11!

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DrDre said:

I just don’t find it believable, that a man who believed his father could be redeemed, a father who had been a true monster, guilty of the death of millions, would even for an instant contemplate killing his newphew, long enough to ignite his lightsaber, his sister, and best friend’s son, a boy who had done nothing, but have dark thoughts.

Yes, Luke believed his father could be redeemed. It’s also fair to assume that Luke believed he could right the troubled Ben Solo ship.

But it’s important to remember that as soon as Vader threatened Leia, in ROTJ, those thoughts of redeeming went out the window. His fear of losing someone he loved was too great and he reacted with violence. He nearly killed the man he wished to save.

The same goes for Ben, and Luke says why he ignited his lightsaber in the film: “Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, pain, death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it.” It isn’t just dark thoughts. It’s his heart, his future, and premonitions of darkness to come. (Which is believable considering what we have seen from Ben/Kylo so far in the ST. Plus, he killed his master and became the head bad guy, which is something Vader never did). Most of all, it’s a threat to everything Luke loves and, like in ROTJ, he instinctively reacts in fear.

In both cases he’s left ashamed of his actions.

And yes, the future is always in motion, too. Luke didn’t listen to Yoda in TESB. But I think right after he quickly and instinctively reacts over Ben, he remembers that this is his nephew and that the future isn’t set in stone. Unfortunately, it’s too late.

I also don’t find it believable that he would see a solution in exiling himself, waiting to die, while Snoke and Kylo Ren were still at large. It is the obvious choice to try and stop Snoke and Kylo. If Luke fails, he dies, which means he will get his wish of ending the Jedi, if he wins, he can still go to an island to die. So, for me the movie failed to provide a proper motivation for Luke to be so emotionally compromised, that he would forget his Jedi training, knowing the future is always in motion, and raise his lightsaber above a young boy’s head. It also failed to explain why from Luke’s perspective letting Snoke and Kylo run free without a Jedi to challenge them would be the best solution for the galaxy. Had the movie shown that Ben Solo had hurt a loved one, I might have bought Luke’s reaction in Ben’s bedroom. Had the movie shown, that Luke tried to stop Snoke and Kylo, but failed, because he couldn’t hurt his sister, and best friend’s son, and only barely escaped with his life, I might have bought his exile,

What might seem obvious to someone on the outside looking in, may not be so clear for someone who’s right in the thick of it and trying to deal with the immense amount of pain and guilt they carry.

When trying to understand why Luke felt that exile was the answer, we also need to consider the effect this all had on him. Luke’s mistake caused his nephew, his sisters and best friends son, to go down the dark path. It also cost the lives of his students that were all under his care. The level of guilt he felt from this failure is huge, and these are not throwaway decisions, this is something that absolutely devastated him to the core. Or, as Snoke puts it: “split your spirit to the bone.” There is Luke being emotionally compromised.

But, Luke being in exile and his justifications for it are just a cover-up for his guilt and failings. As viewers, we are in Rey’s POV and when she is confused about why Luke is acting the way he is, so are we. The emotions Rey has against Luke are the same as ours. This was intentional, and we are supposed to feel this way. This is part of Luke’s arc in the film.

We have also seen masters make mistakes and go into exile before. So Luke sees the Jedi failing in the past, and now he is repeating their mistakes. The difference is that this time he decides that this Jedi vs. Sith dynamic is a cycle that the galaxy cannot handle anymore. How many lives have been lost in the 60-70 years since the Sith returned? So, to break the cycle he decides that the Jedi won’t participate anymore, and that the Light should rise from another, more worthy source. He alone is taking this burden on his shoulders to take himself out of the game, doing something he couldn’t do in TESB (answering the call of his friends) to allow something new to lift up the light. This is hard for him. In short, he decides that it is time to let the past die.

But, when that worthier source does appear, he doesn’t see her in front of his nose. Or, more likely, he doesn’t want to teach Rey because he doesn’t want her to eventually feel the pain he feels now.

The kicker is that Luke is wrong (like Ben is), and Yoda teaches him why in his final lesson. This was all intentional in order to give Luke a real and solid character arc.

And, to use your example about Luke going to confront Snoke and Ben, I think he knew that it wouldn’t help anything. Ben has been completely betrayed by Luke, so anything he says to try and pull him back to the light will fall on deaf ears. Second, Luke does not want to hurt Ben, nor does he want to give Ben the satisfaction of killing him (At the end of TLJ, RJ found a way around this dilemma). If Luke is destroyed by Ben/Snoke, this will give Snoke the satisfaction that the Jedi have been eliminated and that no new Jedi can rise to fight them. Luke staying alive gives a small bit of hope to the galaxy and puts a sense of fear in Snoke, who is desperate to kill Luke to put his mind at ease.

but TLJ did neither. It just says Luke’s different now, deal with it. That’s not good enough for me. Major character changes should imo happen on screen, not between films.

This seems like something to take up with TFA instead of TLJ. Luke had his major character change before RJ even started writing. JJ is responsible for establishing the change, RJ was just trying to figure out how and why it happened.

I’m not sure if any of this is of any help to you, and it’s starting to look like overkill a bit, but I’m hoping it is. If not, let me know! I love discussions about Star Wars, so if you or anyone else want to chat about it I’m all ears!

<dl>

<dd>This is my lightsaber. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My lightsaber is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. My lightsaber, without me, is useless. Without my lightsaber, I am useless. I must wield my lightsaber true.</dd>

</dl>

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Very well said. You did an excellent job of putting into words why I had no issue with Luke’s characterization in TLJ.

a trolling bantha

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tfshirty said:

DrDre said:

I just don’t find it believable, that a man who believed his father could be redeemed, a father who had been a true monster, guilty of the death of millions, would even for an instant contemplate killing his newphew, long enough to ignite his lightsaber, his sister, and best friend’s son, a boy who had done nothing, but have dark thoughts.

Yes, Luke believed his father could be redeemed. It’s also fair to assume that Luke believed he could right the troubled Ben Solo ship.

But it’s important to remember that as soon as Vader threatened Leia, in ROTJ, those thoughts of redeeming went out the window. His fear of losing someone he loved was too great and he reacted with violence. He nearly killed the man he wished to save.

The same goes for Ben, and Luke says why he ignited his lightsaber in the film: “Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, pain, death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it.” It isn’t just dark thoughts. It’s his heart, his future, and premonitions of darkness to come. (Which is believable considering what we have seen from Ben/Kylo so far in the ST. Plus, he killed his master and became the head bad guy, which is something Vader never did). Most of all, it’s a threat to everything Luke loves and, like in ROTJ, he instinctively reacts in fear.

In both cases he’s left ashamed of his actions.

And yes, the future is always in motion, too. Luke didn’t listen to Yoda in TESB. But I think right after he quickly and instinctively reacts over Ben, he remembers that this is his nephew and that the future isn’t set in stone. Unfortunately, it’s too late.

Good post! Allow me to retort. In defending TLJ’s handling of Luke many fans point to Luke’s flaws in the OT to argue that the character’s portrayal in TLJ is consistent with the OT. In my view that perspective misses the point of the OT entirely. The point where the characters are at the end of ROTJ is not defined by their flaws, as shown throughout the OT, it is defined by them overcoming those flaws. You say Luke attacked his father with a fury, after Vader threatened his sister. True, but and it’s a big but, there’s the pivotal moment, where Luke looks at his own mechanical hand, and at his cyborg father, and realizes what he might become. He steps back and learns from his mistakes. In that moment the character is transformed, and becomes a Jedi. To have Luke make the same mistake with Ben, that he made with his father, negates much of his character arc in the OT, and specifically ROTJ. That is where the problem is. It’s not that Luke makes a new mistake, and learns from it. He makes the same mistake, and seemingly forgets everything his entire arc in the OT was about, most importantly the Jedi teachings, and on that faulty basis becomes the anti-thesis of what his character represented in the OT. In that moment he regresses from the Jedi he was at the end of the OT to the reckless, impulsive character he was before, a man driven by fear, a fear for a possible future not becoming of a Jedi, not becoming of Luke Skywalker at the end of his character arc in the OT.

This is a recurring issue with the ST, where the classic characters and the plot developments regress, such that a similar story can be told with new characters. The victory of the rebels is undone, such that we can have Empire versus rebels again. Han again becomes a smuggler, who wants nothing to do with galactic politics, and conflict, and is a bad husband, and poor father to boot. Luke becomes that impulsive boy again, always looking to the horizon, and adds cynisism to his list of flaws. Leia is stripped from her connections to the other classic characters along with her royal heritage, and becomes almost solely defined by her mission, spurring Han to seek out their son, and Rey to seek out Luke. It is through these developments, that the ST diminishes the OT’s story, its characters, and their bond, carefully built up over the course of three films, and all in the service of giving the audience a thusfar very familiar story, a remix of what came before.

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The thing is these arcs could have been achieved without diminishing the characters. For instance Han could have been using his old skills/contacts to recruit potential resistance allies. That way TFA could still have him separated from Leia and acting somewhat like the Solo of old, but with noble purpose.

Similarly Luke could have inadvertently ‘created’ Kylo Ren through the training process but, instead of giving up in despair, could have realised that the old ways were no longer adequate. His entire ‘hobo’ routine with Rey could have been a ruse - something like Yoda’s initial test/demeanour in TESB - that was designed to push Rey into seeking her own destiny rather than being trained in the traditional way. The ‘subversion’ could’ve been at the finale when Rey (and the audience) realises that Luke was guiding her all along. That way we get a subversive hobo-Luke without sacrificing his arc as completed in ROTJ. Plus it would explain why there was a map…

Oh, and Leia’s ‘Jedi moment’ should’ve been lifting those rocks for Rey and demonstrating that Rey still has much to learn.

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DrDre said:

tfshirty said:

DrDre said:

I just don’t find it believable, that a man who believed his father could be redeemed, a father who had been a true monster, guilty of the death of millions, would even for an instant contemplate killing his newphew, long enough to ignite his lightsaber, his sister, and best friend’s son, a boy who had done nothing, but have dark thoughts.

Yes, Luke believed his father could be redeemed. It’s also fair to assume that Luke believed he could right the troubled Ben Solo ship.

But it’s important to remember that as soon as Vader threatened Leia, in ROTJ, those thoughts of redeeming went out the window. His fear of losing someone he loved was too great and he reacted with violence. He nearly killed the man he wished to save.

The same goes for Ben, and Luke says why he ignited his lightsaber in the film: “Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, pain, death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it.” It isn’t just dark thoughts. It’s his heart, his future, and premonitions of darkness to come. (Which is believable considering what we have seen from Ben/Kylo so far in the ST. Plus, he killed his master and became the head bad guy, which is something Vader never did). Most of all, it’s a threat to everything Luke loves and, like in ROTJ, he instinctively reacts in fear.

In both cases he’s left ashamed of his actions.

And yes, the future is always in motion, too. Luke didn’t listen to Yoda in TESB. But I think right after he quickly and instinctively reacts over Ben, he remembers that this is his nephew and that the future isn’t set in stone. Unfortunately, it’s too late.

Good post! Allow me to retort. In defending TLJ’s handling of Luke many fans point to Luke’s flaws in the OT to argue that the character’s portrayal in TLJ is consistent with the OT. In my view that perspective misses the point of the OT entirely. The characters and their story are not defined by their flaws, they are defined by overcoming those flaws. You say Luke attacked his father with a fury, after Vader threatened his sister. True, but and it’s a big but, there’s the pivotal moment, where Luke looks at his own mechanical hand, and at his cyborg father, and realizes what he might become. He steps back and learns from his mistakes. In that moment the character is transformed, and becomes a Jedi. To have Luke make the same mistake with Ben, that he made with his father, negates much of his character arc in the OT. That is where the problem is. It’s not that Luke makes a new mistake, and learns from it. He makes the same mistake, and seemingly forgets everything his entire arc in the OT was about, and on that faulty basis becomes the anti-thesis of what his character represented in the OT.

This is a recurring issue with the ST, where the classic characters and the plot developments regress, such that a similar story can be told with new characters. The victory of the rebels is undone, such that we can have Empire versus rebels again. Han again becomes a smuggler, who wants nothing to do with galactic politics, and conflict, and is a bad husband, and poor father to boot. Luke becomes that impulsive boy again, always looking to the horizon, and adds cynisism to his list of flaws. Leia is stripped from her connections to the other classic characters along with her heritage, and becomes almost solely defined by her mission, spurring Han to seek out their son, and Rey to seek out Luke, since she has a more important job to do apparently. It is through these developments, that the ST diminishes the OT’s story, its characters, and their connections, and all in the service of giving the audience a thusfar very familiar story, a remix of what came before.

I agree with you about Han and Leia in TFA for sure. I have a lot more problems with that film than I do TLJ. If Leia is going to be a politician, let her be one! Too me, The film relied too much on getting the look and feel of the OT, but forgot to flesh out a true new story. The studio was definitely being restrained and fearful of fan reaction so the filmmakers took the soft reboot mantra to heart. Plus its JJ, and the story kind of jumps all over the place, and never stops to breathe until the end which is a weird cliff hanger ending that forces RJ to pick up right then and there. I almost wish Luke wasn’t even in TFA at all. End it on D’qar.

Back to Luke. One way I have always looked at his scene with Ben is that in an instant he goes from being in a room with his nephew to being in a room with the next dark lord. That catches him off guard, and he responds instinctively. Seems like a logical reaction. He doesn’t lift his lightsaber up or swing it, or anything like that. He just ignites it, and then regrets it. For a moment he had fear, a type of fear he may not have experienced since that faithful day in ROTJ. Wouldn’t that be kind of terrifying?

I believe Luke had grown and learned, and that there was way more restraint shown by him than in ROTJ. But what I think it boils down too is that he was caught off guard with the amount of darkness that was in Ben.

And also, with Ben in this scene the situation becomes a little different. This is a troubled kid with a shadow in him that was growing and he has the devil whispering in his ear, too. What does the dark side feed on? Fear. And in that moment Ben’s worst fears came true and he snapped. Luke isn’t even given a chance to explain, and Ben is given an excuse to take a new darker path.

And also what does that instinct mean for Luke? He was taught to kill the bad guy, and he was taught detachment from his feelings. There is his instinctive response as a Jedi as he stood over Ben. And just as he redefined what being a Jedi was in ROTJ, in the scene with Ben he realizes that the old ways of the jedi, which is all he had to go on for learning and teaching, aren’t good enough anymore. They need to change or it needs to die. Ben’s reaction, and ensuing destruction, put him into a grief stricken state and he decided with option 2.

This is the beginning of Luke’s attitude toward the Jedi changing ,that we see at the start of TLJ. (And rightfully so as this organization has more to do with the creation of Vader than palpatine ever did).

I could talk about this scene forever. It’s very layered and really interesting.

<dl>

<dd>This is my lightsaber. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My lightsaber is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. My lightsaber, without me, is useless. Without my lightsaber, I am useless. I must wield my lightsaber true.</dd>

</dl>

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I’ve never been a fan of how Luke lifted the lightsaber- but only for an instant. And Ben just happens to make up and happens to misinterpret the situation.

I completely see it’s logic: it totally could happen irl. It is the best way to write Ben’s turn, as you want Luke to be guilty but still a hero. But the entire thing feels so contrived.

I honestly don’t know any other way to write that scene besides having Ben’s turn not take place in his bedroom, but some other place with other variables. I am just saying what I feel from the whole explanation.

Vader, a 7 in 1 edit of the entire Star Wars Saga

Maul, a clone wars edit

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tfshirty said:

DrDre said:

tfshirty said:

DrDre said:

I just don’t find it believable, that a man who believed his father could be redeemed, a father who had been a true monster, guilty of the death of millions, would even for an instant contemplate killing his newphew, long enough to ignite his lightsaber, his sister, and best friend’s son, a boy who had done nothing, but have dark thoughts.

Yes, Luke believed his father could be redeemed. It’s also fair to assume that Luke believed he could right the troubled Ben Solo ship.

But it’s important to remember that as soon as Vader threatened Leia, in ROTJ, those thoughts of redeeming went out the window. His fear of losing someone he loved was too great and he reacted with violence. He nearly killed the man he wished to save.

The same goes for Ben, and Luke says why he ignited his lightsaber in the film: “Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction, pain, death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become. And for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it.” It isn’t just dark thoughts. It’s his heart, his future, and premonitions of darkness to come. (Which is believable considering what we have seen from Ben/Kylo so far in the ST. Plus, he killed his master and became the head bad guy, which is something Vader never did). Most of all, it’s a threat to everything Luke loves and, like in ROTJ, he instinctively reacts in fear.

In both cases he’s left ashamed of his actions.

And yes, the future is always in motion, too. Luke didn’t listen to Yoda in TESB. But I think right after he quickly and instinctively reacts over Ben, he remembers that this is his nephew and that the future isn’t set in stone. Unfortunately, it’s too late.

Good post! Allow me to retort. In defending TLJ’s handling of Luke many fans point to Luke’s flaws in the OT to argue that the character’s portrayal in TLJ is consistent with the OT. In my view that perspective misses the point of the OT entirely. The characters and their story are not defined by their flaws, they are defined by overcoming those flaws. You say Luke attacked his father with a fury, after Vader threatened his sister. True, but and it’s a big but, there’s the pivotal moment, where Luke looks at his own mechanical hand, and at his cyborg father, and realizes what he might become. He steps back and learns from his mistakes. In that moment the character is transformed, and becomes a Jedi. To have Luke make the same mistake with Ben, that he made with his father, negates much of his character arc in the OT. That is where the problem is. It’s not that Luke makes a new mistake, and learns from it. He makes the same mistake, and seemingly forgets everything his entire arc in the OT was about, and on that faulty basis becomes the anti-thesis of what his character represented in the OT.

This is a recurring issue with the ST, where the classic characters and the plot developments regress, such that a similar story can be told with new characters. The victory of the rebels is undone, such that we can have Empire versus rebels again. Han again becomes a smuggler, who wants nothing to do with galactic politics, and conflict, and is a bad husband, and poor father to boot. Luke becomes that impulsive boy again, always looking to the horizon, and adds cynisism to his list of flaws. Leia is stripped from her connections to the other classic characters along with her heritage, and becomes almost solely defined by her mission, spurring Han to seek out their son, and Rey to seek out Luke, since she has a more important job to do apparently. It is through these developments, that the ST diminishes the OT’s story, its characters, and their connections, and all in the service of giving the audience a thusfar very familiar story, a remix of what came before.

I agree with you about Han and Leia in TFA for sure. I have a lot more problems with that film than I do TLJ. If Leia is going to be a politician, let her be one! Too me, The film relied too much on getting the look and feel of the OT, but forgot to flesh out a true new story. The studio was definitely being restrained and fearful of fan reaction so the filmmakers took the soft reboot mantra to heart. Plus its JJ, and the story kind of jumps all over the place, and never stops to breathe until the end which is a weird cliff hanger ending that forces RJ to pick up right then and there. I almost wish Luke wasn’t even in TFA at all. End it on D’qar.

Back to Luke. One way I have always looked at his scene with Ben is that in an instant he goes from being in a room with his nephew to being in a room with the next dark lord. That catches him off guard, and he responds instinctively. Seems like a logical reaction. He doesn’t lift his lightsaber up or swing it, or anything like that. He just ignites it, and then regrets it. For a moment he had fear, a type of fear he may not have experienced since that faithful day in ROTJ. Wouldn’t that be kind of terrifying?

I believe Luke had grown and learned, and that there was way more restraint shown by him than in ROTJ. But what I think it boils down too is that he was caught off guard with the amount of darkness that was in Ben.

And also, with Ben in this scene the situation becomes a little different. This is a troubled kid with a shadow in him that was growing and he has the devil whispering in his ear, too. What does the dark side feed on? Fear. And in that moment Ben’s worst fears came true and he snapped. Luke isn’t even given a chance to explain, and Ben is given an excuse to take a new darker path.

And also what does that instinct mean for Luke? He was taught to kill the bad guy, and he was taught detachment from his feelings. There is his instinctive response as a Jedi as he stood over Ben. And just as he redefined what being a Jedi was in ROTJ, in the scene with Ben he realizes that the old ways of the jedi, which is all he had to go on for learning and teaching, aren’t good enough anymore. They need to change or it needs to die. Ben’s reaction, and ensuing destruction, put him into a grief stricken state and he decided with option 2.

This is the beginning of Luke’s attitude toward the Jedi changing ,that we see at the start of TLJ. (And rightfully so as this organization has more to do with the creation of Vader than palpatine ever did).

I could talk about this scene forever. It’s very layered and really interesting.

I disagree. The Jedi represent an ideal, that goes well beyond the few individuals we met in the PT. That ideal was the basis for a peace that lasted for a thousand generations. The fact that a number of Jedi made mistakes doesn’t alter this. Luke states, that at the height of their powers the Jedi allowed Darth Sidious to rise, create the Empire, and wipe them out. This is wrong. During the events of the Prequel Trilogy, the Jedi weren’t at the height of their powers at all. The Sith were rising from the shadows, and the Jedi were growing weaker. Master Yoda admitted that he could no longer sense as clearly as he used to, which is why no one predicted the rise of Darth Sidious. The reality is, that by accepting Anakin as a Padawan, the Jedi abandoned their rules to honour a fallen comrade. Individual Jedi made mistakes, but this does not make the ideal they were striving for wrong or misguided. Like the PT Jedi Luke failed, because he didn’t follow the Jedi code, and allowed fear into his heart. The moment Luke ignited his saber, he was giving into the dark side, and forgot the lesson he learned 30 years before, when he faced an actual mass murderer, his father, and his evil master, watching powerless as the rebellion was being blown to bits, rather than a frightened young boy in his bed, who had up to that point done nothing wrong. Yet, the same Luke who was able to restrain himself from attacking the Emperor for the longest time, and under extreme duress, immediately went for his lightsaber when faced with a sleeping young boy, and a possible dark future, a future he knew was not set in stone.

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Like many of you, I’m sure, Luke was my hero growing up. Luke was an idealist, maybe a little naive, but always cared about doing the right thing. I really identified with that and felt I was the same way in lot of aspects.

In TLJ, Luke has clearly gotten older, and with that time Luke has made mistakes and has even fallen into a depression. He’s lost that bit of idealism he used to have, becoming a little jaded by the world.

I’ve also gotten older, and when I watched this movie, I was surprised how much I still related to Luke. While I’m not as old as Luke is, I’ve also come to regret my naivety a little. I’ve made a lot of mistakes, things that have really made me hate myself at times, like hurting people I care about. Things that totally felt out of character for me, things I know better than to do, that despite how much I care about the people I love, than I can still fail them. But, seeing Luke deal with the same thing, but be able to look through that fog of depression and find hope that he can try to make things right and be who he always was meant to be, it gave me that little bit of hope that despite my own failures, it isn’t too late for me to be better too.

Maybe this won’t resonate for everyone, but I like to think that for the people who are most like Luke when he was young, who will come to realize how the world can come crashing down on idealists and leave them in a place like older Luke was in, will get it. So to me, TLJ Luke is exactly who he needs to be for certain people going through similar things as he’s going through, just like how OT Luke was a surrogate for many kids who related to him. So maybe that won’t work for everyone and I understand that, but it totally works for me. Because to me, that’s what Luke’s character is suppose to be about. Hope. Not just hope for the world, but hope for oneself. And I think what Luke goes through has to be big, because it needs to be something where someone can go, “Well if Luke can get back up after THAT, then maybe I can too.”

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RogueLeader said:

Like many of you, I’m sure, Luke was my hero growing up. Luke was an idealist, maybe a little naive, but always cared about doing the right thing. I really identified with that and felt I was the same way in lot of aspects.

In TLJ, Luke has clearly gotten older, and with that time Luke has made mistakes and has even fallen into a depression. He’s lost that bit of idealism he used to have, becoming a little jaded by the world.

I’ve also gotten older, and when I watched this movie, I was surprised how much I still related to Luke. While I’m not as old as Luke is, I’ve also come to regret my naivety a little. I’ve made a lot of mistakes, things that have really made me hate myself at times, like hurting people I care about. Things that totally felt out of character for me, things I know better than to do, that despite how much I care about the people I love, than I can still fail them. But, seeing Luke deal with the same thing, but be able to look through that fog of depression and find hope that he can try to make things right and be who he always was meant to be, it gave me that little bit of hope that despite my own failures, it isn’t too late for me to be better too.

Maybe this won’t resonate for everyone, but I like to think that for the people who are most like Luke when he was young, who will come to realize how the world can come crashing down on idealists and leave them in a place like older Luke was in, will get it. So to me, TLJ Luke is exactly who he needs to be for certain people going through similar things as he’s going through, just like how OT Luke was a surrogate for many kids who related to him. So maybe that won’t work for everyone and I understand that, but it totally works for me. Because to me, that’s what Luke’s character is suppose to be about. Hope. Not just hope for the world, but hope for oneself. And I think what Luke goes through has to be big, because it needs to be something where someone can go, “Well if Luke can get back up after THAT, then maybe I can too.”

Great post RL. Luke was my favorite as a kid too. After TLJ, I love him more than ever.

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Does anyone know how Rey/Chewie knew the circumstances of the ‘slow chase’ and how/where to come out of hyperspace in order to send Rey to Snoke’s ship?