Sign In

Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 155

Author
Time

rodneyfaile said:
I sympathize though. I felt the same way during the prequels. I didn’t like them, but the look and feel of the prequels were taking over everything I saw that was Star Wars and I didn’t see an end in sight. It was a sad time for me, but now Disney has come along and in my opinion have brought Star Wars back in a big way with new movies and new series with much more to come.

Fair enough and it’s good that the ST was able to do that for you. Unfortunately it seems to be an ever widening problem with the fandom not split 2 major ways but 3 or 4 now, with some of those splits being chasms.

rodneyfaile said:
Maybe whatever the Game of Thrones producers are working on will be more to your liking, or even whatever Rian Johnson is working on. Maybe not having classic characters and it being a separate thing will be more acceptable to you?

Definitely interested to see what the GoT producers will come up with and I would have been far more interested in Rian’s completely separate trilogy if not for TLJ (and is where he should have done his experimentation with the franchise rather than part 8 of a 9 part saga). No chance of me watching them now and personally I don’t think they will ever happen, I now think it was just another way of Disney trying to play down / throw a blanket over the effects of criticism that they knew was coming and was already starting to make itself heard. It will eventually be “explained” as to why they are no longer getting made.

However it’s not simply a case of not having classic characters in the movies, I would have had no problem with them being in the ST had they been treated with the due care and respect deserved in their story treatments.

rodneyfaile said:
Me? I love it all.

A little contradictory seeing that you just said you hated the PT, no?

Val

Author
Time

OutboundFlight said:

rodneyfaile said:

There’s no such thing as happily ever after. Life goes on. New challenges arise. You don’t win once and never have to fight again. Just because WW2 came a little over 20 years after WW1 doesn’t mean all those that fought were losers.

I got to see beloved characters again and were introduced to great new characters too. The First Order is not like the Empire. They do not rule the galaxy. They are more like a terrorist organization that formed from the remains of an overthrown government.

I can’t speak for others, but I have a bit of a problem with this thinking.

For me it’s more about how they go back to pre-ANH with the Sequels, almost resetting the timeline. It’s as if after World War I established new order in Europe, the heir to the Kaiser was suddenly reinstated by a small terrorist organization and then proceeded to redo the World War almost exactly the same.

Of course, that’s not what happened. The Second World War was a direct result from the conclusion of the First World War, with the Germans angry over their defeat and turning to a horrible ideology. If you were to learn about the Franco-Prussian War and then jump to WW2, it wouldn’t make any sense.

Compare that with Star Wars. Imagine watching ROTS and then jumping to TFA. It… isn’t that hard. There’s a Republic mentioned but only shown in a destruction montage. Beyond that it could be reasoned the Empire has stood for 50 years. Everything Luke, Leia, and Han fought for has been forgotten, undone, and now we are supposed to expect the new characters will somehow fix it permanently this time.

I’d rather the Sequels have built upon what the Originals laid out. It can have higher stakes, but the Victory over Endor should of had a major impact on the galaxy the same way the Empire took over at the end of ROTS. One possibility that comes to mind is the Vong War from EU… it felt even more important than the Battle of Endor, but without Endor there wouldn’t have been a Republic in the first place. The OT feels important, as it should.

The First Order does not feel like a terrorist organization. They feel like the Empire, and they are by TLJ. Show us the Republic. Play up terrorism, because it’s more impactful than ever. Show them bombing senate buildings, put the galaxy on edge. That would make the saga feel much different. At the end of TLJ, they could fire on Starkiller and become a new Empire. But then we’d at least see the Republic in action holding off this radicals. By removing most of what the Rebel Alliance established, they made the OT’s impact on the saga redundant.

Well said.

Author
Time

rodneyfaile said:

OutboundFlight said:
Everything Luke, Leia, and Han fought for has been forgotten, undone, and now we are supposed to expect the new characters will somehow fix it permanently this time.

Nothing is ever permanent, especially across an entire galaxy. Just because there is a new conflict doesn’t mean the fighting for a previous victory is for nothing.

While what you’re saying is true, it does not line up with or nullify what OutboundFlight is getting at.

Val

Author
Time

NeverarGreat said:

I didn’t get the impression that Luke had such a strategy in mind based on his interactions with Rey. If anything, during their time together he should have been pleased that his plan has worked so well, and that another powerful source of light has arisen in the galaxy to challenge Snoke and Kylo. If Luke had simply said in the Jedi Tree that the entire religion was fatally flawed, they could have gotten past their antagonism and into a more interesting and rewarding track. Luke could have realized what Rey wanted and said ‘I won’t teach you the Jedi ways, but I can be a mentor and a friend.’ Then when Rey dives into her dark interludes with Kylo the inevitable fallout would be sharper for her growing friendship with the former Jedi.

Apparently the line, “It’s time for the Jedi to end” was originally a longer one, and I sort of think it may have given more context to Luke’s position.

I mean I think Luke’s perspective is implied by a lot of what he says. In his conversation with Rey about Jedi hubris, the rise of Sidious and Vader and then the eventual fall of Ben Solo, you can see that he is trying to get her to understand the cycle of good and evil.

He does want Rey to become something different, which is why he explains to her what the Force is, and how one does not have to be a Jedi to serve the light.

I think Rey continues to question Luke because she has heard the tales of the Jedi, and believe in what they represent. If she had never heard of a Jedi, maybe she wouldn’t have disagreed with Luke as much.

Maybe if Luke had lines being more direct, mentioning an actual “cycle” or telling Rey she could be something different, it would have been made clearer. I do feel like he was reluctant to train her partly because the line between teaching her about the Force and teaching her how to be a Jedi is thin, and if he taught her too much then the cycle would just start again. It isn’t until towards the end of the film that he believes that taking the lessons from the past and trying to learn from them is better than just completely starting over, he gets that hope back.

I think the the shadow discussion from my previous post carries over to this. The Jedi were concerned with purging/repressing their shadows, when they actually should’ve acknowledged their shadows, similar to how Luke acknowledges the dark side not being something inherently evil, like the Jedi thought. Fear and anger aren’t inherently evil emotions, but where evil comes in is how you act on those emotions.

Author
Time

Valheru_84 said:

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

Han Solo, General Leia, and Master Skywalker are not losers.

Han went from a hero and General in the Rebellion, and being ready for a committed relationship with Leia to going back to smuggling, abandoning his wife and son, and then got stabbed go death by his son in a last ditch effort to save him. Luke went from being the last Jedi, who redeemed his father to falling from his faith completely, just wanting to die, abandoning his family, friends, and the galaxy as a whole, only to die from Force exhaustion in a last ditch effort to save the handful of remaining rebels. Leia went from being one of the leaders of the Rebel Alliance and of the New Republic, while starting a family to being a general of a band of rebels that can fit in the Millenium Falcon having lost her husband and son. In the context of where they were at the end of the OT, each of the big three lost in a major way, and worst of all after building a powerful friendship over the course of three films would not share a single scene together in the new trilogy with Luke only becoming aware of the death of his best friend after the fact.

Hi Dre,

Just thought I’d say that you’re still doing a great job in representing those that found TLJ to be an abhorrent (or at the very least distasteful) addition to the Star Wars saga and continuing to shine light on all the reasons it is by far the worst Star Wars movie to date if only due to the damage it has done to the Star Wars fandom and the franchise itself. You’ve got my full support in standing up for our perspective and I wish I could be half as involved in discussing it as you are but currently I just can’t be bothered (nor have the time) to get entrenched again in arguments about TLJ and Disney/Lucasfilm reactions to the criticism.

Just didn’t want you to think you are alone in your views on TLJ that you always so accurately and thoroughly express 😃

Val

TLJ didn’t damage the fandom, that was self-inflicted.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

Author
Time

rodneyfaile said:

OutboundFlight said:
Everything Luke, Leia, and Han fought for has been forgotten, undone, and now we are supposed to expect the new characters will somehow fix it permanently this time.

Nothing is ever permanent, especially across an entire galaxy. Just because there is a new conflict doesn’t mean the fighting for a previous victory is for nothing.

That might make sense from a realism point of view, but it doesn’t work from a film-making perspective. The Original Trilogy has become irrelevant.

Will the conclusion to this trilogy be a similar defeat over the Empire? If so, then it stands to reason a new force will rise up in 30 years and overthrow that. The Saga has to end with Episode 9, but if they don’t give us a proper reason to believe this is it, it’ll fall flat on its face.

A “unification” between dark and light sounds equally disturbing. It isn’t like there are two extreme factions each bad in their own way. One is good and the other is bad. We see the First Order commit mass genocide on multiple occasions. We see the Resistance save the day on multiple occasions. Even if Kylo decides to merge with the Resistance, it will appear as if the First Order won, because the Resistance is already perfect and all they can do now is corrupt it.

Now that I’m thinkin about this, I don’t know if a solid conclusion to Episode 9 is even possible with the hole RJ dug us into.

Vader, a 7 in 1 edit of the entire Star Wars Saga

Maul, a clone wars edit

Author
Time

yotsuya said:
This trilogy belongs wholly to the younger cast.

That’s what Disney wants but hasn’t achieved for many people. The younger characters are shallow and haven’t earned the right to supersede the old characters who are thrown under the bus to try and prop up the new 2D characters. Despite everything they did to the old characters, they are still deeper and more interesting than the new characters even if I object to what is done to them. Mark’s performance is a perfect example of this.

Val

Author
Time

SilverWook said:

Valheru_84 said:

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

Han Solo, General Leia, and Master Skywalker are not losers.

Han went from a hero and General in the Rebellion, and being ready for a committed relationship with Leia to going back to smuggling, abandoning his wife and son, and then got stabbed go death by his son in a last ditch effort to save him. Luke went from being the last Jedi, who redeemed his father to falling from his faith completely, just wanting to die, abandoning his family, friends, and the galaxy as a whole, only to die from Force exhaustion in a last ditch effort to save the handful of remaining rebels. Leia went from being one of the leaders of the Rebel Alliance and of the New Republic, while starting a family to being a general of a band of rebels that can fit in the Millenium Falcon having lost her husband and son. In the context of where they were at the end of the OT, each of the big three lost in a major way, and worst of all after building a powerful friendship over the course of three films would not share a single scene together in the new trilogy with Luke only becoming aware of the death of his best friend after the fact.

Hi Dre,

Just thought I’d say that you’re still doing a great job in representing those that found TLJ to be an abhorrent (or at the very least distasteful) addition to the Star Wars saga and continuing to shine light on all the reasons it is by far the worst Star Wars movie to date if only due to the damage it has done to the Star Wars fandom and the franchise itself. You’ve got my full support in standing up for our perspective and I wish I could be half as involved in discussing it as you are but currently I just can’t be bothered (nor have the time) to get entrenched again in arguments about TLJ and Disney/Lucasfilm reactions to the criticism.

Just didn’t want you to think you are alone in your views on TLJ that you always so accurately and thoroughly express 😃

Val

TLJ didn’t damage the fandom, that was self-inflicted.

Sorry but I strongly disagree. You only have to go actively looking for it and you will see the fallout everywhere. But that’s still a matter of opinion which we can courteously agree to disagree on.

The damage to my own enjoyment of Star Wars was certainly not self-inflicted, it was an adverse reaction to what I had to experience as a new official episode to a saga that up to that point I had loved every episode of (even the PT though my adult enjoyment of them are greatly enhanced now by fan edits).

I am a Star Wars fan through and through which makes me part of the fandom. To say all my grievances and issues with TLJ are self-inflicted is pretty nasty.

Val

Author
Time
 (Edited)

OutboundFlight said:
A “unification” between dark and light sounds equally disturbing. It isn’t like there are two extreme factions each bad in their own way. One is good and the other is bad. We see the First Order commit mass genocide on multiple occasions. We see the Resistance save the day on multiple occasions. Even if Kylo decides to merge with the Resistance, it will appear as if the First Order won, because the Resistance is already perfect and all they can do now is corrupt it.

Now that I’m thinkin about this, I don’t know if a solid conclusion to Episode 9 is even possible with the hole RJ dug us into.

This is why Rey having feelings for Ben and the whole “Reylo” thing is utterly stupid. He is the head of an organisation that has murdered billions of people. He has personally executed people and killed his own fellow jedi apprentices, even killed his own father in cold blood right in front of Rey. She constantly spits “monster!” in his face but suddenly starts to sympathise with him and have implications of sexual attraction?

The only way it could have made sense and actually been something new, interesting and different was if she actually did join Kylo in TLJ.

Val

Edit: Damnit! I knew posting a reply in the first place was a bad idea. I’m out for now.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Valheru_84 said:

A little contradictory seeing that you just said you hated the PT, no?

Val

I like everything they’re doing now.

I will say the prequels have grown in me some. I can now appreciate them as unique products of their place and time. Perhaps all it took was the realization of that style not lasting forever. I still do not consider them to be well made, but I like certain parts very much.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Valheru_84 said:

SilverWook said:

Valheru_84 said:

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

Han Solo, General Leia, and Master Skywalker are not losers.

Han went from a hero and General in the Rebellion, and being ready for a committed relationship with Leia to going back to smuggling, abandoning his wife and son, and then got stabbed go death by his son in a last ditch effort to save him. Luke went from being the last Jedi, who redeemed his father to falling from his faith completely, just wanting to die, abandoning his family, friends, and the galaxy as a whole, only to die from Force exhaustion in a last ditch effort to save the handful of remaining rebels. Leia went from being one of the leaders of the Rebel Alliance and of the New Republic, while starting a family to being a general of a band of rebels that can fit in the Millenium Falcon having lost her husband and son. In the context of where they were at the end of the OT, each of the big three lost in a major way, and worst of all after building a powerful friendship over the course of three films would not share a single scene together in the new trilogy with Luke only becoming aware of the death of his best friend after the fact.

Hi Dre,

Just thought I’d say that you’re still doing a great job in representing those that found TLJ to be an abhorrent (or at the very least distasteful) addition to the Star Wars saga and continuing to shine light on all the reasons it is by far the worst Star Wars movie to date if only due to the damage it has done to the Star Wars fandom and the franchise itself. You’ve got my full support in standing up for our perspective and I wish I could be half as involved in discussing it as you are but currently I just can’t be bothered (nor have the time) to get entrenched again in arguments about TLJ and Disney/Lucasfilm reactions to the criticism.

Just didn’t want you to think you are alone in your views on TLJ that you always so accurately and thoroughly express 😃

Val

TLJ didn’t damage the fandom, that was self-inflicted.

Sorry but I strongly disagree. You only have to go actively looking for it and you will see the fallout everywhere. But that’s still a matter of opinion which we can courteously agree to disagree on.

The damage to my own enjoyment of Star Wars was certainly not self-inflicted, it was an adverse reaction to what I had to experience as a new official episode to a saga that up to that point I had loved every episode of (even the PT though my adult enjoyment of them are greatly enhanced now by fan edits).

I am a Star Wars fan through and through which makes me part of the fandom. To say all my grievances and issues with TLJ are self-inflicted is pretty nasty.

Val

You don’t think there were some who overreacted a tad? Demonizing the director, harassing a certain actress online? Epic length youtube video rants on why the movie sucks? I’m surprised nobody made a bonfire of all their action figures and toys and posted the video.
Grievances and issues are fine, when they are expressed in a mature intelligent way. There’s been too many people screaming bloody murder over a movie they didn’t like.
And I’m speaking as an original old school since 1977 fan here. Even if I thought TLJ was the worst film since Beast of Yucca Flats, it would not affect my love of Star Wars very much, if at all.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

Author
Time

I see lots of Rey and Kylo cosplay. I think the future is bright. I’ve been a fan since 77 as well and I love Star Wars as much as ever.

Author
Time

rodneyfaile said:

I see lots of Rey and Kylo cosplay. I think the future is bright. I’ve been a fan since 77 as well and I love Star Wars as much as ever.

Yep! Saw a few this past Halloween. 😃

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

Author
Time
 (Edited)

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

Haarspalter said:
So Star Wars is now a learning-lessons-about-life-meta-documentary which uses a fictional space fantasy fairy tale as a backdrop some old bearded guy invented in the 70s?

Meh.

Star Wars should be about escapism, not realism.

Sounds like you didn’t understand the other movies either.

I don’t understand why this is needed. I didn’t like TLJ for a whole host of reasons, but I’m not going to tell you you don’t understand Star Wars for liking what I consider to be a deeply flawed film, that puts a post-modern perspective on a modern myth, by turning the saga into a meta commentary on itself, and has the characters in the mythology question the merits of their own reality. You might just accept that Star Wars is different things to different people. It’s fine that you consider TLJ a great film, and you’ve stated the reasons why, but many others including myself feel the ST and particulary TLJ weakens the overall saga, and its mythology as a whole for the reasons stated above, and the fact that it resets the galaxy to an Empire vs rebels conflict without proper context, or explanation to give us an alternate reality version of the OT, where great effort is taken to push a number of new characters to the foreground at the expense of the old.

Forgive me if I only focus on this paragraph, but after reading it I felt a couple of things needed to be answered. First, this is a new trilogy and it is supposed to focus on new characters and push the old into supporting roles. That was the vision of it from the get go. That is what Lucas told Hamill 30 years ago. The role we see for Luke, Han, and Leia is exactly what it is supposed to be. This is not their time any longer. That is the entire point of setting it 30 years later. Each trilogy is a different era of a much larger story. The OT is the core story - the rebellion and redemption. It is the classic myth in origin. The PT is the back story, the history. It is stilted and old fashioned in tone and depicts the events before and during the fall. The ST is now the new generation. This is Rey, Poe, Finn, and Kylo’s story. Han, Luke, and Leia are old people passing on the torch and sharing their wisdom. It is not their trilogy so the new characters are supposed to be pushed to the foreground at their expense. This is not Heir to Empire where the old group were still in their prime.

This is where what I keep talking about with expectations comes in. Just from that one sentence that you ended that paragraph with I can see you expected a new trilogy with the old characters and that was never the plan. Lucas never intended the third trilogy to be about 3 old farts saving things again. They were supposed to be the familiar faces to introduce the new heroes, and that is exactly what we got. In all the old myths and legends, there are sequels for a new generation where the old heroes are the ones who have become the mentors to the new heroes. Coming into this trilogy with any expectations for the cast of the OT to have big roles was setting yourself up for disappointment. It was never going to happen. That was the books of the EU (now Legends). This is something new. Something to bind the other 6 films together and bring the saga to a conclusion. This is a new tale of good vs. evil with something else to say. I think the point will be clear when IX comes out. But it is obvious from the way you describe what you didn’t like about TLJ that you had expected something different and a lot of your dislike lies in that. You have made some other really good points, but every time I read your posts on TLJ, it comes back to what about Luke, Han, and Leia you didn’t like and how it didn’t meet your expectations. And what you don’t like about their part in the ST is that they were derailed from where we left them in ROTJ by what happened to Ben Solo/Kylo Ren. That was the core of TFA and TLJ and as I understand it, George Lucas’s treatment for the ST.

As for the familiar feel to the two sides, that is often the way of history. Abrams did the setup and yet the ire is aimed at Johnson. Abrams failed to give us the little details Lucas loved to throw in to paint the picture. But we are stuck with what Abrams left us with in TFA. But it also isn’t that unreasonable. There has to be some conflict (it is called Star Wars after all) and making a weak republic and eliminating its government and fleet were a simple way to start the story. Abrams could have done better setting things up, but in the end, both Abrams and Johnson are focusing on the things that really matter - the characters that take us to the end of the Saga. What that end will be we don’t know and can only guess at this point.

You misunderstand me. I did not expect the old guard to be the focus of this story, but I don’t like the idea of turning the old crew into a bunch of losers, such that the new guard can shine by comparison. The entire outcome of the OT and much of the character arcs therein were undone without much context or explanation to reset the story to a highly similar premise of Empire vs rebels/Jedi vs Sith. That to me is not natural story progression, but a soft reboot.

It was explained, multiple times in both movies or shown in various ways. The crux is the fall of Ben Solo, which happened off screen. Luke vanished, Han and Leia broke up and went back to what they were good at. With Kylo and the Knights of Ren, the First Order rose and took the old Empire tech and improved on it and developed a new super weapon. About the only thing missing is any clear details about the new Republic, but they are wiped out in TFA. If you need to have everyone in the same place as 30 years ago or super detailed reasons why they aren’t, then you expect them to be main characters still instead of supporting characters. I can understand being critical of the film, but many of your points are based of a false assumption that the old cast is still the focus. This trilogy belongs wholly to the younger cast.

I don’t expect everyone to be in the same place, but I did expect an original story, that builds on what previous films established. In stead much of what was built has been broken down to give us something very similar. This might make money sense, since it’s the perfect way to maintain brand recognition by keeping the galaxy locked into an Empire vs rebels state, but in my view it doesn’t make much story sense. Palpatine was unique in the sense, that he alone through cunning was able to destroy a Republic that had stood for at least a thousand years. Snoke is just some random guy, who somehow seduced Ben Solo and essentially rebuilt the Empire in the unknown regions, while the Republic was looking the other way for plot convenience, and used a superweapon to turn back the clock some 35 years. No more explanation required according to the current creators. The fact that such a scenerio is possible, and we can point to real world examples to fill in the blanks, doesn’t mean it makes dramatic or story sense. It just seems like lazy writing, and makes the ST feel tacked on.

Author
Time

I think it would have been awesome if the New Republic was depicted using Star Destroyers/TIE Fighters etc etc and the First Order relegated to battered old X-Wings and Y-Wings etc. Imagine seeing Leia and Ackbar at the bridge of a big ol’ Star Destroyer - it makes sense the that the New Republic would’ve seized the tech of the former government right? Imagine seeing Kylo Ren in an X-Wing. Probably marketing/toy sales suicide of course, but THAT would subvert expectations and also add an emotional element visually - that of visualising the First Order as a kind of rebellion. If Snoke hadn’t just been a shallow Palpatine-clone we might have had an opportunity to have some ambiguity with regards to the motivations of the FO and Kylo Ren.

And I stand by my contention from a zillion threads back that the ‘new Emperor’ should’ve been Mon Mothma on a revenge trip after her secretly siding with Palpatine and giving the rebels false information (in order to spare the Bothan system and win a seat of power at Palpatine’s side) went south during the Endor battle…

Author
Time
 (Edited)

SilverWook said:

Valheru_84 said:

SilverWook said:

Valheru_84 said:

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

Han Solo, General Leia, and Master Skywalker are not losers.

Han went from a hero and General in the Rebellion, and being ready for a committed relationship with Leia to going back to smuggling, abandoning his wife and son, and then got stabbed go death by his son in a last ditch effort to save him. Luke went from being the last Jedi, who redeemed his father to falling from his faith completely, just wanting to die, abandoning his family, friends, and the galaxy as a whole, only to die from Force exhaustion in a last ditch effort to save the handful of remaining rebels. Leia went from being one of the leaders of the Rebel Alliance and of the New Republic, while starting a family to being a general of a band of rebels that can fit in the Millenium Falcon having lost her husband and son. In the context of where they were at the end of the OT, each of the big three lost in a major way, and worst of all after building a powerful friendship over the course of three films would not share a single scene together in the new trilogy with Luke only becoming aware of the death of his best friend after the fact.

Hi Dre,

Just thought I’d say that you’re still doing a great job in representing those that found TLJ to be an abhorrent (or at the very least distasteful) addition to the Star Wars saga and continuing to shine light on all the reasons it is by far the worst Star Wars movie to date if only due to the damage it has done to the Star Wars fandom and the franchise itself. You’ve got my full support in standing up for our perspective and I wish I could be half as involved in discussing it as you are but currently I just can’t be bothered (nor have the time) to get entrenched again in arguments about TLJ and Disney/Lucasfilm reactions to the criticism.

Just didn’t want you to think you are alone in your views on TLJ that you always so accurately and thoroughly express 😃

Val

TLJ didn’t damage the fandom, that was self-inflicted.

Sorry but I strongly disagree. You only have to go actively looking for it and you will see the fallout everywhere. But that’s still a matter of opinion which we can courteously agree to disagree on.

The damage to my own enjoyment of Star Wars was certainly not self-inflicted, it was an adverse reaction to what I had to experience as a new official episode to a saga that up to that point I had loved every episode of (even the PT though my adult enjoyment of them are greatly enhanced now by fan edits).

I am a Star Wars fan through and through which makes me part of the fandom. To say all my grievances and issues with TLJ are self-inflicted is pretty nasty.

Val

You don’t think there were some who overreacted a tad? Demonizing the director, harassing a certain actress online? Epic length youtube video rants on why the movie sucks? I’m surprised nobody made a bonfire of all their action figures and toys and posted the video.

Only replying to this one since it’s still an open matter directly involving me.

Of course there are those that massively overreacted, took things out of context and used it for ulterior motives. Demonising the director or harassing any actor or actress for their god awful character is clearly not on. These are all part of a fringe extreme minority of fans that do a massive disservice to the fandom and those that have legitimate and reasonable criticisms with the movie. When I talk about the aspect of the fandom that is damaged, I refer to many other people who feel the same as me to either the same extent or differing levels. People that are so disinterested in any future Star Wars because of TLJ and numerous other contributing factors that the franchise might as well be in hibernation again until someone else picks up the mantel to have another crack at making good Star Wars movies.

As to the epic length youtube videos…if they’re just an unbalanced frothing at the mouth rant, yeah not needed. I greatly enjoyed Mauler’s 5hr analysis series though of TLJ (which one might consider a rant if you’re of the view there’s nothing wrong with TLJ), much like one might enjoy RLM Plinkett analytical reviews of the PT. They’re cathartic in a way because they’re talking and delving into topics you are already in at least partial agreement on and can offer up a good laugh. You always take them with a grain of salt as well though. Mauler’s “unbridled rage” videos are definitely more on the rant side but good value for just blowing off some steam without having to say it all yourself and good for a laugh as well at the sheer outrage on display.

There is of course again a line when you watch this type of content for various reasons where on one side you’re enjoying some like minded discourse on everything you feel is wrong with the movie and then there’s taking it as gospel that it shows Rian and Kathleen are evil and deserve to die (that’s the extreme minority rearing its head again).

SilverWook said:
Grievances and issues are fine, when they are expressed in a mature intelligent way. There’s been too many people screaming bloody murder over a movie they didn’t like.

You’re not wrong, though the amount of people screaming bloody murder is not as many as their volume would lead you to believe.

SilverWook said:
And I’m speaking as an original old school since 1977 fan here. Even if I thought TLJ was the worst film since Beast of Yucca Flats, it would not affect my love of Star Wars very much, if at all.

And I was born in 1984 and grew up on countless viewings of the OT and even though I couldn’t attend the actual screenings I consider myself an original old school fan as the OUT will always be my one and only true Star Wars that I will always love and treasure my memories of growing up with.

When I say TLJ damaged the fandom and the franchise, I am not referring to it damaging my love of the OT or in general to what I still enjoy about Star Wars but it has killed any interest in Ep9 and has damaged my enjoyment of Star Wars in a broader sense. I refer to the actual fandom as a whole and the franchise’s continued success and status as one of the most iconic movie franchises of all time. TLJ, the drama, politics and issues surrounding it are seriously tarnishing that status in my view, to the point that it will only continue on as a success in mass marketing and the special magic that permeated it will have long since vanished, to be remembered only in it’s “golden age”. It will and has already become another victim of the Hollywood machine that is rebooting, restarting and remaking everything in sight ad nauseam. Despite people claiming TLJ went in new and different directions, it is really no more than a mish-mash of TESB and ROTJ and heavily relies on the OT characters to draw people in to watch these movies. TLJ tells us “forget the past, kill it if you have to” yet banks on the OT at every chance it can as a safety net because itself doesn’t trust in the story and new characters being able to make the money they want back from their investment.

Anyway, getting a bit side tracked here. Essentially I feel your gross generalisation of the fandom that was negatively affected by this movie to be pretty distasteful and I felt personally insulted by it since in it’s broad stroke it includes me and other people that are genuinely upset about many of the decisions made by RJ in TLJ. Not trying to kick up a stink or anything but I think it was a pretty thoughtless comment.

Val

Author
Time

Not my intention. Sorry you see it that way.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

Author
Time

The Last Jedi did not offend or insult me in any way , shape or form . I thought it was brilliant and I enjoyed it . I acknowledge that not everyone feels this way though . I enjoyed the numerous inspirations ,intentional or not , to the old expanded universe upon the film . I think it is clear at this point that I am not going to sway anyone who is against the film as they will not sway me to hate the film .I think the best advice is to affect the attitude of Qui-Gon Jinn in a deleted scene from TPM , and I am paraphrasing here …" You’ll just have to tolerate his opinion ".

https://screamsinthevoid.deviantart.com/

Author
Time

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

Haarspalter said:
So Star Wars is now a learning-lessons-about-life-meta-documentary which uses a fictional space fantasy fairy tale as a backdrop some old bearded guy invented in the 70s?

Meh.

Star Wars should be about escapism, not realism.

Sounds like you didn’t understand the other movies either.

I don’t understand why this is needed. I didn’t like TLJ for a whole host of reasons, but I’m not going to tell you you don’t understand Star Wars for liking what I consider to be a deeply flawed film, that puts a post-modern perspective on a modern myth, by turning the saga into a meta commentary on itself, and has the characters in the mythology question the merits of their own reality. You might just accept that Star Wars is different things to different people. It’s fine that you consider TLJ a great film, and you’ve stated the reasons why, but many others including myself feel the ST and particulary TLJ weakens the overall saga, and its mythology as a whole for the reasons stated above, and the fact that it resets the galaxy to an Empire vs rebels conflict without proper context, or explanation to give us an alternate reality version of the OT, where great effort is taken to push a number of new characters to the foreground at the expense of the old.

Forgive me if I only focus on this paragraph, but after reading it I felt a couple of things needed to be answered. First, this is a new trilogy and it is supposed to focus on new characters and push the old into supporting roles. That was the vision of it from the get go. That is what Lucas told Hamill 30 years ago. The role we see for Luke, Han, and Leia is exactly what it is supposed to be. This is not their time any longer. That is the entire point of setting it 30 years later. Each trilogy is a different era of a much larger story. The OT is the core story - the rebellion and redemption. It is the classic myth in origin. The PT is the back story, the history. It is stilted and old fashioned in tone and depicts the events before and during the fall. The ST is now the new generation. This is Rey, Poe, Finn, and Kylo’s story. Han, Luke, and Leia are old people passing on the torch and sharing their wisdom. It is not their trilogy so the new characters are supposed to be pushed to the foreground at their expense. This is not Heir to Empire where the old group were still in their prime.

This is where what I keep talking about with expectations comes in. Just from that one sentence that you ended that paragraph with I can see you expected a new trilogy with the old characters and that was never the plan. Lucas never intended the third trilogy to be about 3 old farts saving things again. They were supposed to be the familiar faces to introduce the new heroes, and that is exactly what we got. In all the old myths and legends, there are sequels for a new generation where the old heroes are the ones who have become the mentors to the new heroes. Coming into this trilogy with any expectations for the cast of the OT to have big roles was setting yourself up for disappointment. It was never going to happen. That was the books of the EU (now Legends). This is something new. Something to bind the other 6 films together and bring the saga to a conclusion. This is a new tale of good vs. evil with something else to say. I think the point will be clear when IX comes out. But it is obvious from the way you describe what you didn’t like about TLJ that you had expected something different and a lot of your dislike lies in that. You have made some other really good points, but every time I read your posts on TLJ, it comes back to what about Luke, Han, and Leia you didn’t like and how it didn’t meet your expectations. And what you don’t like about their part in the ST is that they were derailed from where we left them in ROTJ by what happened to Ben Solo/Kylo Ren. That was the core of TFA and TLJ and as I understand it, George Lucas’s treatment for the ST.

As for the familiar feel to the two sides, that is often the way of history. Abrams did the setup and yet the ire is aimed at Johnson. Abrams failed to give us the little details Lucas loved to throw in to paint the picture. But we are stuck with what Abrams left us with in TFA. But it also isn’t that unreasonable. There has to be some conflict (it is called Star Wars after all) and making a weak republic and eliminating its government and fleet were a simple way to start the story. Abrams could have done better setting things up, but in the end, both Abrams and Johnson are focusing on the things that really matter - the characters that take us to the end of the Saga. What that end will be we don’t know and can only guess at this point.

You misunderstand me. I did not expect the old guard to be the focus of this story, but I don’t like the idea of turning the old crew into a bunch of losers, such that the new guard can shine by comparison. The entire outcome of the OT and much of the character arcs therein were undone without much context or explanation to reset the story to a highly similar premise of Empire vs rebels/Jedi vs Sith. That to me is not natural story progression, but a soft reboot.

It was explained, multiple times in both movies or shown in various ways. The crux is the fall of Ben Solo, which happened off screen. Luke vanished, Han and Leia broke up and went back to what they were good at. With Kylo and the Knights of Ren, the First Order rose and took the old Empire tech and improved on it and developed a new super weapon. About the only thing missing is any clear details about the new Republic, but they are wiped out in TFA. If you need to have everyone in the same place as 30 years ago or super detailed reasons why they aren’t, then you expect them to be main characters still instead of supporting characters. I can understand being critical of the film, but many of your points are based of a false assumption that the old cast is still the focus. This trilogy belongs wholly to the younger cast.

I don’t expect everyone to be in the same place, but I did expect an original story, that builds on what previous films established. In stead much of what was built has been broken down to give us something very similar. This might make money sense, since it’s the perfect way to maintain brand recognition by keeping the galaxy locked into an Empire vs rebels state, but in my view it doesn’t make much story sense. Palpatine was unique in the sense, that he alone through cunning was able to destroy a Republic that had stood for at least a thousand years. Snoke is just some random guy, who somehow seduced Ben Solo and essentially rebuilt the Empire in the unknown regions, while the Republic was looking the other way for plot convenience, and used a superweapon to turn back the clock some 35 years. No more explanation required according to the current creators. The fact that such a scenerio is possible, and we can point to real world examples to fill in the blanks, doesn’t mean it makes dramatic or story sense. It just seems like lazy writing, and makes the ST feel tacked on.

It is not just real world examples. Where we were at the end of ROTJ was the death of the Emperor. No more, no less. We have nothing of the story from there to TFA. In TFA, the Hosnian system housing the Republic Senate and the only fleet the new Republic has is destroyed. The First Order has yet to be shown occupying a single planet. We have setup the conflict and there are three players, not two. There is the First Order - the agressive invader. There is the Resistance - in the spirit of the old rebellion who has been trying to keep the First Order out. And then there is the Republic. That has yet to play any role. We don’t know what is left, what the mindset is, who they might side with, or anything. Yes their government and their fleet are gone, but the planets that had joined can reform the government. Some planets might welcome the First Order with open arms, some might fight to the bitter end. We don’t know, but your argument ignores all of them. In the OT, all these planets were part of the Empire. They were occupied. Only a few resisted and helped the Rebellion. The game, while on the surface has some similarity, is different. You are equating the situations in the OT and ST and ignoring the differences. In the OT, the death of the Emperor was a big deal that sealed the fate of the Empire. In the ST, the death of Snoke means nothing to the worlds of the Republic. How those republic worlds react is what will set the Trilogies apart. How the conflict between Rey and Kylo plays out will as well. Your comparison of the two trilogies is over simplistic. Had Lucas been doing this trilogy, I bet the story would be largely the same, but I bet the movies would be shorter and they would have more clues as to the wider galactic situation. Abrams really robbed us of that. TLJ had no reason to expand on it. Any lazy writing lies with Abrams. And even though I have not read a single add on book that might expound on any of this, I can still see many possibilities and a variety of larger pictures from what we do know (both what was in the films and the few deleted clips). I don’t see it as simple as a reset to exactly what we had in the OT. I can see the similarities in the presented story, but the wider story is very different and the ramifications of that change everything.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

rodneyfaile said:

Haarspalter said:
So Star Wars is now a learning-lessons-about-life-meta-documentary which uses a fictional space fantasy fairy tale as a backdrop some old bearded guy invented in the 70s?

Meh.

Star Wars should be about escapism, not realism.

Sounds like you didn’t understand the other movies either.

I don’t understand why this is needed. I didn’t like TLJ for a whole host of reasons, but I’m not going to tell you you don’t understand Star Wars for liking what I consider to be a deeply flawed film, that puts a post-modern perspective on a modern myth, by turning the saga into a meta commentary on itself, and has the characters in the mythology question the merits of their own reality. You might just accept that Star Wars is different things to different people. It’s fine that you consider TLJ a great film, and you’ve stated the reasons why, but many others including myself feel the ST and particulary TLJ weakens the overall saga, and its mythology as a whole for the reasons stated above, and the fact that it resets the galaxy to an Empire vs rebels conflict without proper context, or explanation to give us an alternate reality version of the OT, where great effort is taken to push a number of new characters to the foreground at the expense of the old.

Forgive me if I only focus on this paragraph, but after reading it I felt a couple of things needed to be answered. First, this is a new trilogy and it is supposed to focus on new characters and push the old into supporting roles. That was the vision of it from the get go. That is what Lucas told Hamill 30 years ago. The role we see for Luke, Han, and Leia is exactly what it is supposed to be. This is not their time any longer. That is the entire point of setting it 30 years later. Each trilogy is a different era of a much larger story. The OT is the core story - the rebellion and redemption. It is the classic myth in origin. The PT is the back story, the history. It is stilted and old fashioned in tone and depicts the events before and during the fall. The ST is now the new generation. This is Rey, Poe, Finn, and Kylo’s story. Han, Luke, and Leia are old people passing on the torch and sharing their wisdom. It is not their trilogy so the new characters are supposed to be pushed to the foreground at their expense. This is not Heir to Empire where the old group were still in their prime.

This is where what I keep talking about with expectations comes in. Just from that one sentence that you ended that paragraph with I can see you expected a new trilogy with the old characters and that was never the plan. Lucas never intended the third trilogy to be about 3 old farts saving things again. They were supposed to be the familiar faces to introduce the new heroes, and that is exactly what we got. In all the old myths and legends, there are sequels for a new generation where the old heroes are the ones who have become the mentors to the new heroes. Coming into this trilogy with any expectations for the cast of the OT to have big roles was setting yourself up for disappointment. It was never going to happen. That was the books of the EU (now Legends). This is something new. Something to bind the other 6 films together and bring the saga to a conclusion. This is a new tale of good vs. evil with something else to say. I think the point will be clear when IX comes out. But it is obvious from the way you describe what you didn’t like about TLJ that you had expected something different and a lot of your dislike lies in that. You have made some other really good points, but every time I read your posts on TLJ, it comes back to what about Luke, Han, and Leia you didn’t like and how it didn’t meet your expectations. And what you don’t like about their part in the ST is that they were derailed from where we left them in ROTJ by what happened to Ben Solo/Kylo Ren. That was the core of TFA and TLJ and as I understand it, George Lucas’s treatment for the ST.

As for the familiar feel to the two sides, that is often the way of history. Abrams did the setup and yet the ire is aimed at Johnson. Abrams failed to give us the little details Lucas loved to throw in to paint the picture. But we are stuck with what Abrams left us with in TFA. But it also isn’t that unreasonable. There has to be some conflict (it is called Star Wars after all) and making a weak republic and eliminating its government and fleet were a simple way to start the story. Abrams could have done better setting things up, but in the end, both Abrams and Johnson are focusing on the things that really matter - the characters that take us to the end of the Saga. What that end will be we don’t know and can only guess at this point.

You misunderstand me. I did not expect the old guard to be the focus of this story, but I don’t like the idea of turning the old crew into a bunch of losers, such that the new guard can shine by comparison. The entire outcome of the OT and much of the character arcs therein were undone without much context or explanation to reset the story to a highly similar premise of Empire vs rebels/Jedi vs Sith. That to me is not natural story progression, but a soft reboot.

It was explained, multiple times in both movies or shown in various ways. The crux is the fall of Ben Solo, which happened off screen. Luke vanished, Han and Leia broke up and went back to what they were good at. With Kylo and the Knights of Ren, the First Order rose and took the old Empire tech and improved on it and developed a new super weapon. About the only thing missing is any clear details about the new Republic, but they are wiped out in TFA. If you need to have everyone in the same place as 30 years ago or super detailed reasons why they aren’t, then you expect them to be main characters still instead of supporting characters. I can understand being critical of the film, but many of your points are based of a false assumption that the old cast is still the focus. This trilogy belongs wholly to the younger cast.

I don’t expect everyone to be in the same place, but I did expect an original story, that builds on what previous films established. In stead much of what was built has been broken down to give us something very similar. This might make money sense, since it’s the perfect way to maintain brand recognition by keeping the galaxy locked into an Empire vs rebels state, but in my view it doesn’t make much story sense. Palpatine was unique in the sense, that he alone through cunning was able to destroy a Republic that had stood for at least a thousand years. Snoke is just some random guy, who somehow seduced Ben Solo and essentially rebuilt the Empire in the unknown regions, while the Republic was looking the other way for plot convenience, and used a superweapon to turn back the clock some 35 years. No more explanation required according to the current creators. The fact that such a scenerio is possible, and we can point to real world examples to fill in the blanks, doesn’t mean it makes dramatic or story sense. It just seems like lazy writing, and makes the ST feel tacked on.

It is not just real world examples. Where we were at the end of ROTJ was the death of the Emperor. No more, no less. We have nothing of the story from there to TFA. In TFA, the Hosnian system housing the Republic Senate and the only fleet the new Republic has is destroyed. The First Order has yet to be shown occupying a single planet. We have setup the conflict and there are three players, not two. There is the First Order - the agressive invader. There is the Resistance - in the spirit of the old rebellion who has been trying to keep the First Order out. And then there is the Republic. That has yet to play any role. We don’t know what is left, what the mindset is, who they might side with, or anything. Yes their government and their fleet are gone, but the planets that had joined can reform the government. Some planets might welcome the First Order with open arms, some might fight to the bitter end. We don’t know, but your argument ignores all of them. In the OT, all these planets were part of the Empire. They were occupied. Only a few resisted and helped the Rebellion. The game, while on the surface has some similarity, is different. You are equating the situations in the OT and ST and ignoring the differences. In the OT, the death of the Emperor was a big deal that sealed the fate of the Empire. In the ST, the death of Snoke means nothing to the worlds of the Republic. How those republic worlds react is what will set the Trilogies apart. How the conflict between Rey and Kylo plays out will as well. Your comparison of the two trilogies is over simplistic. Had Lucas been doing this trilogy, I bet the story would be largely the same, but I bet the movies would be shorter and they would have more clues as to the wider galactic situation. Abrams really robbed us of that. TLJ had no reason to expand on it. Any lazy writing lies with Abrams. And even though I have not read a single add on book that might expound on any of this, I can still see many possibilities and a variety of larger pictures from what we do know (both what was in the films and the few deleted clips). I don’t see it as simple as a reset to exactly what we had in the OT. I can see the similarities in the presented story, but the wider story is very different and the ramifications of that change everything.

It wasn’t Abrams that took the New Republic out of the equation, seemingly gave the FO unlimited resources, and turned the Resistance into rebels again. That was all on Johnson. TFA ended with both the FO and the Republic having suffered major losses in personel and equipment. This left Johnson with a ton of possibilities to take the conflict in any other direction than simply rehashing Empire vs rebels. Guerilla warfare, terrorism, outright chaos, and a race for control of the remaining resources were all possibilities, but Johnson opted for the least original one, where a small band of rebels again has to fight a seemingly insurmountable force. For me personally the moment when the Resistance referred to themselves as rebels for the first time was the moment when I felt something was amiss, and cemented the idea that we would get a “what if” version of the OT rather than an original story.

Author
Time

yotsuya said:

Abrams really robbed us of [the wider galactic situation]. TLJ had no reason to expand on it. Any lazy writing lies with Abrams.

That’s quite a lot of blame to place on one guy. And sure, his was the cardinal sin of failing to properly establish the relationship between the First Order, the Republic, and the Resistance, but these were issues that could have been resolved in a single scene in TFA and which could have just as easily been resolved in TLJ. Instead we are given no explanation for the First Order’s power nor its resilience after their primary base and weapon was destroyed. We are given no explanation for what remains of the Republic, nor of why the Resistance consists of only a few ships at the start of TLJ. As you say, the Republic doesn’t exist in TLJ in any tangible sense, which means that the only real relationship which now exists for the audience is between the First Order and the Resistance.

DuracellEnergizer: “^He’s embraced the absurd. Don’t expect to gain any conventional understanding from his posts.”
A New Hope Technicolor Recreation (Released!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V2 Released!) and The Starlight Project

Author
Time

Ah… I finally found something with meat to it. Rather than just recollections, this article did research and pulled up actual fan reactions from TESB in 1980. Sure, today it is the gold standard of Star Wars for many, but what did people think when it was the dark sequel to an insanely popular movie. Well, fan letters published in Starlog reveal a lot of that.

http://www.acriticalhit.com/fans-react-empire-strikes-back-1980/

Reading this I can imagagine if modern social media had existed back then. I still remember my reaction. For the longest time TESB was the movie to watch between the amazing Star Wars and the incredible ROTJ. It was the Star TRek III to II and IV - the middle of a great story. Eventually I came around. But I see that same genius in TLJ. The characters are put through the ringer and come out the other side wiser for the experience. They handed TLJ to a good character writer who took where they started in TFA and carried on the story. It was written before we ever saw TFA. Before fans built up expectations. Lucas always waited until after one film came out to write the next, but the have been on a faster schedule and so TLJ was written when TFA was still in production and a few things about TFA were changed. And the more I look at the presented issues, the more I realize that all the big issues are not with TLJ, but with the setup in TFA that TLJ delivers on what was promised. Han gave us the concise narrative of Luke in TFA and TLJ didn’t deviate at all. This trilogy is driven by the fall of Ben Solo and the rise of Kylo Ren. Luke in exile, Leia and Han at odds and back to their old roles, everything was setup by Abrams in TFA.

When you think about May 1980, fans didn’t know what to expect. The had the novel and movie of Star Wars (with the published script to keep the movie fresh in lieu of home video). But in 1979, the got three new Star Wars novels as well as the Marvel comic that kept the story going. What came out in May 1980 was nothing like any of those. Irvin Kershner directed his typical people driven story with a script by the legendary Leigh Bracket with changes by Lawrence Kasdan and the original story by George Lucas. It took he wave of success that Star Wars ended with and dumped the characters into turmoil that didn’t end with the end credits. Many didn’t like the direction. Many didn’t believe that Vader was really Luke’s father. And who was this other Yoda spoke of? It was not the film people expected and they griped about it. There really wasn’t a platform for that voice to drown out the box office results. But it was there. And now we have the ST continuing the story and TLJ is the middle chapter and took a similar character based approach and also ended on a dark note. Though this time a beloved character wasn’t just in carbonite, he was dead. Well, as dead as a Jedi gets in Star Wars since he is expected to be back in the next film. And there were more characters to follow (TLJ has three stories instead of two). But the parallel in reaction is fascinating. And we have one of our own who never took to TESB, at least from what I hear. Mike Verta is a fan of Star Wars - as in the 1977 film only. I’m sure he isn’t alone. But most of us who watched the films when they came out have had our opinions change over time and I’m sure that will happen to TLJ as well. I personally love it and wouldn’t change anything. I don’t expect everyone to share that opinion, but saying TLJ ruined the saga, that is subverted expectations, that it threw out Abrams mystery boxes, etc. is just the initial reaction. Wait for IX to come out. Absorb it. Watch the ST in its complete form and see how TLJ fits and then give us a more reasoned opinion. I bet some will change their mind as many of us did about TESB in the years since it came out.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

yotsuya said:

Ah… I finally found something with meat to it. Rather than just recollections, this article did research and pulled up actual fan reactions from TESB in 1980. Sure, today it is the gold standard of Star Wars for many, but what did people think when it was the dark sequel to an insanely popular movie. Well, fan letters published in Starlog reveal a lot of that.

http://www.acriticalhit.com/fans-react-empire-strikes-back-1980/

Reading this I can imagagine if modern social media had existed back then. I still remember my reaction. For the longest time TESB was the movie to watch between the amazing Star Wars and the incredible ROTJ. It was the Star TRek III to II and IV - the middle of a great story. Eventually I came around. But I see that same genius in TLJ. The characters are put through the ringer and come out the other side wiser for the experience. They handed TLJ to a good character writer who took where they started in TFA and carried on the story. It was written before we ever saw TFA. Before fans built up expectations. Lucas always waited until after one film came out to write the next, but the have been on a faster schedule and so TLJ was written when TFA was still in production and a few things about TFA were changed. And the more I look at the presented issues, the more I realize that all the big issues are not with TLJ, but with the setup in TFA that TLJ delivers on what was promised. Han gave us the concise narrative of Luke in TFA and TLJ didn’t deviate at all. This trilogy is driven by the fall of Ben Solo and the rise of Kylo Ren. Luke in exile, Leia and Han at odds and back to their old roles, everything was setup by Abrams in TFA.

When you think about May 1980, fans didn’t know what to expect. The had the novel and movie of Star Wars (with the published script to keep the movie fresh in lieu of home video). But in 1979, the got three new Star Wars novels as well as the Marvel comic that kept the story going. What came out in May 1980 was nothing like any of those. Irvin Kershner directed his typical people driven story with a script by the legendary Leigh Bracket with changes by Lawrence Kasdan and the original story by George Lucas. It took he wave of success that Star Wars ended with and dumped the characters into turmoil that didn’t end with the end credits. Many didn’t like the direction. Many didn’t believe that Vader was really Luke’s father. And who was this other Yoda spoke of? It was not the film people expected and they griped about it. There really wasn’t a platform for that voice to drown out the box office results. But it was there. And now we have the ST continuing the story and TLJ is the middle chapter and took a similar character based approach and also ended on a dark note. Though this time a beloved character wasn’t just in carbonite, he was dead. Well, as dead as a Jedi gets in Star Wars since he is expected to be back in the next film. And there were more characters to follow (TLJ has three stories instead of two). But the parallel in reaction is fascinating. And we have one of our own who never took to TESB, at least from what I hear. Mike Verta is a fan of Star Wars - as in the 1977 film only. I’m sure he isn’t alone. But most of us who watched the films when they came out have had our opinions change over time and I’m sure that will happen to TLJ as well. I personally love it and wouldn’t change anything. I don’t expect everyone to share that opinion, but saying TLJ ruined the saga, that is subverted expectations, that it threw out Abrams mystery boxes, etc. is just the initial reaction. Wait for IX to come out. Absorb it. Watch the ST in its complete form and see how TLJ fits and then give us a more reasoned opinion. I bet some will change their mind as many of us did about TESB in the years since it came out.

Why would a positive opinion in the absence of IX be any more reasoned than a negative one?

I also don’t really see how a few fan letters in Starlog can really be compared to the avalanche of reviews, analyses, rants, opinion pieces that followed in the wake of TLJ’s release. It’s apples and oranges as far as I’m concerned, and certainly should not be considered as some kind of proof that TLJ will be considered a masterpiece by posterity. Some films with mixed responses will be re-evaluated, or seen in a more postive light, while others won’t.

Author
Time

It continually amazes me how often the OT is shit on in defence of TLJ and people attempt to normalise the criticism of TLJ by trying to draw parallels with audience reactions to TESB.

Star Wars and its fandom is where it’s at because of TLJ, the ST at large and the powers that be handling of the situation. Nothing that came before has anything to do with the current predicament.

Val