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Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 152

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The Last Jedi does not ruin anything set up by The Force Awakens. Everything in TLJ fits with exactly what Han says happened: “One boy, an apprentice, turned against him and destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible. He just…walked away from everything. There were a lot of rumors, stories. People who knew him best think he went looking for the first Jedi temple.”

Luke was not reverted back to a previous version of himself. Just because you have success in your youth is no guarantee of success later in life. On the contrary, experiencing great success earlier in youth can make INEVITABLE failures that much harder to cope with.

Losing a child can rip a family apart. It is compounded exponentially if one of the family members blames themselves for the loss. You can hear the anguish when Luke laments how Leia trusted him with her son.

Yoda does say Luke is looking away at the horizon again, but it’s different this time. When he was younger, he was obsessed with the future and adventure at the expense of the present. He needed to learn focus. Now in his old age he is dwelling on the past at the expense of the present, and missing the opportunity that Rey presents.

Luke is not even honest with himself about exactly what happened. He tries to unburden himself by blaming the Jedi way. Only when he accepts his own mistake and finally forgives himself is he able to learn from the experience. This is a hard lesson to learn. Sometimes it is harder to forgive ourselves than the forgive others because we hold ourselves to an unattainable perfect standard.

Luke then puts on an awesome display of Force mastery in one of the most beautiful and poignant moments of the entire saga.

The Last Jedi is an absolutely wonderful movie.

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At the end of The Force Awakens, Finn had made some progress, but this arc was far from over. He cared about Rey enough to overcome his fears and accompany Han and Chewie to Starkiller in an effort to rescue her. But he wasn’t honest about his reasons for going. He exaggerated his knowledge of Starkiller because as he told Han, he was just there for Rey. He didn’t care about the Resistance, or their cause.

Finn meets two people in The Last Jedi who have a profound effect on him. Rose is in agony over the loss of her sister, yet is still holding to her ideals and devoted to the Resistance. She has lost everything but will simply not quit. Then in stark contrast he meets DJ who has no convictions at all. Finally the light bulb comes on and Finn takes a side. He faces off with the embodiment of his greatest fear in Phasma and pronounces himself “Rebel” scum. He is fully on board now and is a different person by the time they reach Crait.

Finn is so gung-ho, in a display reminiscent of Poe’s previous unwillingness to follow orders, he tries to take on the First order all by himself. Rose saves him because she believes the way to win is not by throwing your life away, but by living to fight another day, obviously informed by the loss of her sister.

Poe learns to respect authority before he can be in a position of authority and a true leader. Rey goes from seeking to identify herself through others to being comfortable with who she is and understands her place in the galaxy. There is just so much character development and wonderful storytelling. The Last Jedi is a great movie.

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Hear hear Rodneyfaile!

Can’t believe it’s been a year already!

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.

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One Year Later - Star Wars: The Last Jedi’ - by HelloGreedo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTVVSF8CNW8
 

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here?
And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

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rodneyfaile said:

The Last Jedi does not ruin anything set up by The Force Awakens. Everything in TLJ fits with exactly what Han says happened: “One boy, an apprentice, turned against him and destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible. He just…walked away from everything. There were a lot of rumors, stories. People who knew him best think he went looking for the first Jedi temple.”

Luke was not reverted back to a previous version of himself. Just because you have success in your youth is no guarantee of success later in life. On the contrary, experiencing great success earlier in youth can make INEVITABLE failures that much harder to cope with.

Losing a child can rip a family apart. It is compounded exponentially if one of the family members blames themselves for the loss. You can hear the anguish when Luke laments how Leia trusted him with her son.

Yoda does say Luke is looking away at the horizon again, but it’s different this time. When he was younger, he was obsessed with the future and adventure at the expense of the present. He needed to learn focus. Now in his old age he is dwelling on the past at the expense of the present, and missing the opportunity that Rey presents.

Luke is not even honest with himself about exactly what happened. He tries to unburden himself by blaming the Jedi way. Only when he accepts his own mistake and finally forgives himself is he able to learn from the experience. This is a hard lesson to learn. Sometimes it is harder to forgive ourselves than the forgive others because we hold ourselves to an unattainable perfect standard.

Luke then puts on an awesome display of Force mastery in one of the most beautiful and poignant moments of the entire saga.

The Last Jedi is an absolutely wonderful movie.

So Star Wars is now a learning-lessons-about-life-meta-documentary which uses a fictional space fantasy fairy tale as a backdrop some old bearded guy invented in the 70s?

Meh.

Star Wars should be about escapism, not realism.

ROGUE ONE is redundant. Just play the first mission of DARK FORCES.
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Haarspalter said:
So Star Wars is now a learning-lessons-about-life-meta-documentary which uses a fictional space fantasy fairy tale as a backdrop some old bearded guy invented in the 70s?

Meh.

Star Wars should be about escapism, not realism.

Sounds like you didn’t understand the other movies either.

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rodneyfaile said:

Haarspalter said:
So Star Wars is now a learning-lessons-about-life-meta-documentary which uses a fictional space fantasy fairy tale as a backdrop some old bearded guy invented in the 70s?

Meh.

Star Wars should be about escapism, not realism.

Sounds like you didn’t understand the other movies either.

I don’t understand why this is needed. I didn’t like TLJ for a whole host of reasons, but I’m not going to tell you you don’t understand Star Wars for liking what I consider to be a deeply flawed film, that puts a post-modern perspective on a modern myth, by turning the saga into a meta commentary on itself, and has the characters in the mythology question the merits of their own reality. You might just accept that Star Wars is different things to different people. It’s fine that you consider TLJ a great film, and you’ve stated the reasons why, but many others including myself feel the ST and particulary TLJ weakens the overall saga, and its mythology as a whole for the reasons stated above, and the fact that it resets the galaxy to an Empire vs rebels conflict without proper context, or explanation to give us an alternate reality version of the OT, where great effort is taken to push a number of new characters to the foreground at the expense of the old.

To expand on the mythology part of my post, I will use this rather intersting and eloquent pro-TLJ article as a starting point to argue where much of the misunderstanding of TLJ’s critics is rooted in my view:

http://lewtonbus.net/editorials/star-wars-the-last-jedi-and-the-power-of-myth-revisited/

From a more critical perspective these two lines to me are at the heart of what Rian Johnson and his supporters don’t understand about the criticism leveled at The Last Jedi from the perspective of the mythology:

“Through a very simple metaphor, Johnson is reinforcing once again that, yes, Star Wars is kind of phony–that heroes like Luke Skywalker do not exist and will not swoop in and save us at the last minute; that, in this turbulent world, we’re on our own–but Johnson nevertheless believes that all the fakery of Star Wars has real value.”

“Because, in mythology, it does not matter if the stories hold literal truth, if they adhere to a rigid continuity, or even if any of they make a damn lick of sense. Anyone who has read Le Morte D’Artur or The Bible knows that they lack historical credibility, and that their tales are often messy, confused, and riddled with contradictions.”

This may very well be true, but within the confines of Le Morte D’Artur or The Bible these myths are true. It is one thing to doubt historical credibility in relation to the real world, it is another to subvert a mythology from within itself. It’s like the ring of power in LOTR being revealed to have had no real power within a sequel, nothing more than a trinket, only holding a symbolic power. It is a symbol in our real world for sure, but within the confines of Tolkien’s universe its powers are real, and should be to appreciate the story as Tolkien intended. Here’s another example. Within the DC universe Superman can fly. Observing that people can’t fly in the real world is not a good defence for a story, where Lois Lane discovers the strings that keep Superman from falling to the ground. In the DC universe the fact that Superman can fly is a reality, and it doesn’t matter that it cannot be true in our real world.

So, while Star Wars is kind of phony–that heroes like Luke Skywalker do not exist and will not swoop in and save us at the last minute in the real world, up till The Last Jedi, heroes like Luke Skywalker used to exist in the Star Wars universe itself. The legend of Luke Skywalker was real, and tangible in-universe. The Last Jedi changed that by having the mythical characters in the universe itself doubt their own reality to the point that Luke Skywalker is now a legend within a legend. Within the Star Wars universe the legend of Luke Skywalker has value, but is no longer real. Like Luke appearing on Crait, it’s an illusion. Some may like this post-modern take on myths and legends, but many others including myself don’t.

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My comment was in response to saying Star Wars should just be escapism, so it wasn’t me stating absolutes about what Star Wars should be or shouldn’t be.

First off the it can be many things at the same time. It can provide escapism and be deeply symbolic and thought provoking. They are not mutually exclusive ideals. In fact, I’d go so far as to say the best escapism is when we can draw parallels to our own personal lives and the world around us. Which leads us to the meaning of my comment. Star Wars was built by George Lucas from the ground up and based on fundamental character archetypes and symbolic tales. Do you think there is no social commentary or life lessons in the original Trilogy? To say Star Wars is just escapism to me says someone doesn’t understand why the movies carry so much impact. It isn’t all because of spaceships and lightsabers.

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rodneyfaile said:

My comment was in reference to saying Star Wars should just be escapism, so it wasn’t me stating absolutes about what Star Wars should be or shouldn’t be.

First off the it can be many things at the same time. It can provide escapism and be deeply symbolic and thought provoking. They are not mutually exclusive ideals. In fact, Id go so far s to say the best escapism is one where we can draw parallels to our own personal lives and the world around us. Which leads us to the meaning of my comment. Star Wars was built by George Lucas from the ground up and based on fundamental character archetypes and symbolic tales. To say Star Wars is just escapism to me says someone doesn’t understand why the movies carry so much impact. It isn’t all because of spaceships and lightsabers.

I think you’re short changing escapism by confining its definition to spaceships and lightsabers in the context of Star Wars.

“Escapism is the avoidance of unpleasant, boring, arduous, scary, or banal aspects of daily life. It can also be used as a term to define the actions people take to help relieve persistent feelings of depression or general sadness.”

The fact that Star Wars impacts the way we view the world does not imply that it should necessarily reflect our own reality, where archetypes and symbolism are often far from reality.

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Your escapism sounds narrow and dogmatic. I did the opposite of defining escapism as spaceships and lightsabers. My entire post was that escapism and Star Wars are so much more than that. It can’t be boiled down to just one thing, or the absence of several things. Star Wars can be deeply symbolic, a teaching lesson, and provide escapism all at the same time. Like I said, the concepts aren’t mutually exclusive. If you think these themes are new to Star Wars with The Last Jedi, then I have news for you, my original comment about not understanding the other movies either applies.

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rodneyfaile said:

Your escapism sounds narrow and dogmatic. I did the opposite of defining escapism as spaceships and lightsabers. My entire post was that escapism is so much more than that.

I think you’re trying to have your cake and eat it. Johnson is telling us that within the confines of the Star Wars universe legends have value, but aren’t real. He tries to bring Star Wars into the real world by having Luke doubt the value and reality of his own legend. He then has Luke return in a manner, which enforces his point of view that Luke cannot really be the legend that faces down the FO with his lasersword, but can perform an illusion to make others believe in the legend of Luke Skywalker. Luke rather than being a space wizard becomes a wizard of Oz, a master of smoke and mirrors. The myth is slowly absorbed by the reality. It’s an interesting point of view, but in my view clashes with the concepts set out by Lucas, and in some ways actively undermines them.

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DrDre said:

I think you’re trying to have your cake and eat it. Johnson is telling us that within the confines of the Star Wars universe legends have value, but aren’t real. He tries to bring Star Wars into the real world by having Luke doubt the value and reality of his own legend. He then has Luke return in a manner, which enforces his point of view that Luke cannot really be the legend that faces down the FO with his lasersword, but can perform an illusion to make others believe in the legend of Luke Skywalker. Luke rather than being a space wizard becomes a wizard of Oz, a master of smoke and mirrors. The myth is slowly absorbed by reality. It’s an interesting point of view, but on my view clashes with the concepts of the modern myth as set out by Lucas.

That is your interpretation of The Last Jedi, but it is not one I remotely share.

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The Wizard of Oz was an old guy hiding behind a curtain though. Luke really is a space wizard.

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rodneyfaile said:

DrDre said:

I think you’re trying to have your cake and eat it. Johnson is telling us that within the confines of the Star Wars universe legends have value, but aren’t real. He tries to bring Star Wars into the real world by having Luke doubt the value and reality of his own legend. He then has Luke return in a manner, which enforces his point of view that Luke cannot really be the legend that faces down the FO with his lasersword, but can perform an illusion to make others believe in the legend of Luke Skywalker. Luke rather than being a space wizard becomes a wizard of Oz, a master of smoke and mirrors. The myth is slowly absorbed by reality. It’s an interesting point of view, but on my view clashes with the concepts of the modern myth as set out by Lucas.

That is your interpretation of The Last Jedi, but it is not one I remotely share.

Which is fine, but rather than claim others don’t understand Star Wars, you would do well to remember that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view. So, from your point of view TLJ is great, whilst from mine it is not. To claim to have a better understanding of these films than others in an attempt to elevate your own arguments is arrogance pure and simple.

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SilverWook said:

The Wizard of Oz was an old guy hiding behind a curtain though. Luke really is a space wizard.

It’s all a matter of degrees. I would argue space wizardry has had a serious demotion in the ST, both in terms of what we can expect of it, and in terms of what it takes to become a space wizard.

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DrDre said:

SilverWook said:

The Wizard of Oz was an old guy hiding behind a curtain though. Luke really is a space wizard.

It’s all a matter of degrees. I would argue space wizardry has had a serious demotion in the ST, both in terms of what we can expect of it, and in terms of what it takes to become a space wizard.

I don’t know that feats of the Force have gotten more or less impressive in the ST, only that they’ve changed.

It’s true however that according to the ST you can become a powerful Force user in about a week.

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DrDre said:

Which is fine, but rather than claim others don’t understand Star Wars, you would do well to remember that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view. So, from your point of view TLJ is great, whilst from mine it is not. To claim to have a better understanding of these films than others in an attempt to elevate your own arguments is arrogance pure and simple.

You are entitled to your own opinion. Not everyone likes the same things and art is subjective. But story elements are not subjective and you are not entitled to your own facts.

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NeverarGreat said:

DrDre said:

SilverWook said:

The Wizard of Oz was an old guy hiding behind a curtain though. Luke really is a space wizard.

It’s all a matter of degrees. I would argue space wizardry has had a serious demotion in the ST, both in terms of what we can expect of it, and in terms of what it takes to become a space wizard.

I don’t know that feats of the Force have gotten more or less impressive in the ST, only that they’ve changed.

It’s true however that according to the ST you can become a powerful Force user in about a week.

With expect I mean the point of view that if you believe, anything is possible. One might argue that it is a myth that you can achieve anything if you work hard enough af it, whilst in reality hard workers fail, and lazy people succeed. In my view myths exist to in part inspire us to reach for the skies, to have us believe the myth, if only for a while, which is where the escapism comes in.

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NeverarGreat said:

I don’t know that feats of the Force have gotten more or less impressive in the ST, only that they’ve changed.

It’s true however that according to the ST you can become a powerful Force user in about a week.

Not everyone can, but Rey can, just like Luke was better than a targeting computer on a sophisticated space fighter and a child can be the only human able to pilot a dangerous podracer.

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rodneyfaile said:

DrDre said:

Which is fine, but rather than claim others don’t understand Star Wars, you would do well to remember that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view. So, from your point of view TLJ is great, whilst from mine it is not. To claim to have a better understanding of these films than others in an attempt to elevate your own arguments is arrogance pure and simple.

You are entitled to your own opinion. Not everyone likes the same things and art is subjective. But story elements are not subjective and you are not entitled to your own facts.

Then please enlighten me on these so called facts, and please also provide the proper references to support these claims. Story elements as they appear on screen have to be interpreted, and are thus rarely factual as they can be seen kn many different contexts. The artist can provide his intentions, but even then this may not translate to the viewer. Even the artist’s interpretation may change over time, the history of the OT and its special editions are a testament to that.

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DrDre said:

Then please enlighten me on these so called facts, and please also provide the proper references to support these claims.

I do not agree with your interpretation of The Last Jedi, but I can’t do anything about how you choose to see things. I just think it is a very pessimistic view and projects a lot into the story.

My original comment was the same symbolic and moralistic storytelling that is present in The Last Jedi is also present in the other Star Wars movies. You are free to like and dislike whatever you want or interpret things however pessimistically you choose, but to try and boil Star Wars down to the previous movies being simple escapism and devoid of symbolism and moral lessons is just plain incorrect.

You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. Like it or not, I do not care.

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rodneyfaile said:

NeverarGreat said:

I don’t know that feats of the Force have gotten more or less impressive in the ST, only that they’ve changed.

It’s true however that according to the ST you can become a powerful Force user in about a week.

Not everyone can, but Rey can, just like Luke was better than a targeting computer on a sophisticated space fighter and a child can be the only human able to pilot a dangerous podracer.

He can see things before they happen. It’s a Jedi trait. As such Luke and Anakin’s early abilities are normal for a Jedi, even if their abilities are exceptional in-universe. However, both required training to reach their potential. Rey is on a whole other level though, and masters abilities almost instantly without any training whatsoever. Two explanation are given, the first being that “darkness rises, and light to meet it”, a new concept that is not wholly compatible with what came before in my view, and the concept that Rey downloaded the knowledge from Kylo’s mind introduced in the book, an idea that negates the whole concept of Jedi training imo.

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rodneyfaile said:

DrDre said:

Then please enlighten me on these so called facts, and please also provide the proper references to support these claims.

I do not agree with your interpretation of The Last Jedi, but I can’t do anything about how you choose to see things. I just think it is a very pessimistic view and projects a lot into the story.

My original comment was the same symbolic and moralistic storytelling that is present in The Last Jedi is also present in the other Star Wars movies. You are free to like and dislike whatever you want or interpret things however pessimistically you choose, but to try and boil Star Wars down to the previous movies being simple escapism and devoid of symbolism and moral lessons is just plain incorrect.

The latter is your erroneous interpretation of other people’s arguments including my own. I never stated Star Wars is devoid of symbolism and moral lessons, and nor did anyone else. Nobody but you claims “simple escapism” and symbolism and moral lessons are mutually exclusive. In fact you seem to treat the idea of simple escapism with an amount of disdain.

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Luke was whiny and immature. Most of his training centered around focus. Rey has plenty of focus and self reliance. The Force accents traits you already posses. Rey is already a pilot and great fighter when we meet her. You’re right, she is on another level.

Force abilities manifest themselves. Jedi training seems to be mainly learning the Jedi way in how to be disciplined and adhere to the Jedi code.

I love that Rey is not beholden to what came before. If I wanted to watch another movie with a master teaching an apprentice, well we have those movies already. I’d rather see how Rey does it this time.