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Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 128

Author
Time
 (Edited)

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Well, I disagree entirely. First off, it is obvious we are supposed to side with Poe. Holdo is expecting Poe to follow orders. That he doesn’t is not surprising because she doesn’t share what she is doing. And ultimately it is Poe who turns Holdo’s cunning plan into a disaster. Poe sends Finn and Rose off to solve the problem his way. A daring venture full of risks with a possible payoff. But because they do not find the hacker that Maz recommends (probably because he can be trusted) and they end up with DJ and DJ learns of Holdo’s plan, when the mission goes sour he uses that to get himself out of trouble. As a result most of the resistance is destroyed, rather than losing the one ship and hiding out on Crait until someone came to get them. Poe is a hotshot pilot but that is not what makes a leader. Knowing when to not be the hotshot and play it safe is the lesson he needed and he got it the hard way. However the movie makes it very clear that if he hadn’t gone ahead and destroyed the dreadnaught at the beginning, it would have wiped them out later. So his first reckless act that he got demoted for turned out to be the right thing to do at the time, but after the fallout, Poe is making wiser decisions. Not bad for a character Abrams almost killed off.

That story line is full of old war movie tropes. How Holdo treats Poe, how Poe reacts, and how he learns. That may not be your real world experience, but it is many people’s. And Holdo doesn’t seem like she is much of a people person. One of those who rose to command through brilliant tactics. She obviously is a friend of Leia’s. So her tough treatment of Poe makes a lot of sense. Military methods of leadership are not the same as private sector methods. The military needs people who will follow orders without question plus brilliant strategists. So using civilian leadership techniques to critique a military interaction doesn’t work well. The same rules don’t apply. There is a reason why the traditional drill sergeant is tough and gruff. Dressing down a subordinate in a military setting isn’t about their well being, it is about their discipline and willingness to follow orders. In a military setting you need someone who will not panic and will act on their training no matter the price. In a civilian setting an employee’s life is rarely on the line and you rarely need blind obedience. So it is comparing apples to oranges.

So both on the writing side and on the realism side, this part of the story reflects some brilliant writing. I find the entire movie to be brilliant. I love it more the more I watch it. And it is definitely very Star Wars. War movies and samurai movies were very much a part of the original trilogy and Rian Johnson captured that part far better than Abrams did in TFA. I watched Twelve O’Clock High and Three Outlaw Samurai after I heard they, plus To Catch A Thief, were classics Rian Johnson was watching to prepare for this movie. Three brilliant films that definitely had an influence.

Maybe you should read the link I posted from someone with actual military experience

Still leaning on this I see.

C’mon Frink, no-one in the military has ever got it wrong! We should read everything anyone who has fought says - or else we may not think as Dre wishes, as our lives may depend on it some day, otherwise an ER tv doctor will not save us - or something…

All for a link to article about Holdo not being a feminist (going on the url) - according to someone with actual military experience - who is giving their opinion - not fact - opinion.

My uncle has military experience - served in Northern Ireland. I wouldn’t listen to his opinion on Star Wars - he doesn’t like it. That’s okay. If he wrote an article on SW - or feminism - I wouldn’t read it. Still love him to bits like. If he does write an articles on Star Wars feel free not to read it - or read it, if you want - your call.

C’mon Jason, you wouldn’t know, because you didn’t read the guy’s opinion. Could he be wrong? Sure, but it’s less likely than let’s say the opinion of a mod on a Star Wars forum. If you can present another opinion, that’s actually based on relevant experience or expertise, rather than being a fan of a movie, that refutes this guy’s argument, I will gladly read it. He can even call me a man baby, since expertise and personality are generally not correlated (for example, I would gladly be operated by a brilliant churgin, who’s also an *******). However, until that day comes, I choose to trust a veteran’s opinion over a Star Wars fan when it comes to military situations.

My uncle’s opinion? Not interested - it’s not an ‘expert opinion’ in the context of is Holdo a feminist or not, and comparing real life military to a sci-fi film. I think I’ve already said that - though you seem to ignore many points and questions I’ve previously made/asked on the subject. Please feel free to read them back again - or seemingly not.

My opinion on Holdo being a feminist or not has less value because of someone who fought? Okay…

To be honest - you shouldn’t listen to my opinion - mod or not (What on earth? It doesn’t mean a thing - and am quite surprised you allude it does) - go form your own opinions. You’re free to do that - some have fought for that, so we can make up own own minds and then state them.

I don’t have to refute a man’s opinion or article, nor do I have to read every link put in front of me. Yet I can still state my opinion - and I will do. You want to give it a measure of value? Okay.

You seem very hung up on the feminist angle. Even if that were relevant to judgement of the whole military situation, you don’t know the context of the word, since you didn’t read the article.

Hung up on the feminist angle? No, it is in the url link to the article we are discussing though, isn’t it? A military veteran’s ‘expert opinion’ on Holdo not being a feminist… I’ve stated that a few times - pretty consistent, yes?

Edit, here is the link to the article you posted:-

https://chrishernandezauthor.com/2017/12/31/admiral-holdo-wasnt-a-feminist-she-was-just-a-bad-leader/

You are also not being very consistent. You claim real life military experience is not relevant to a sci-fi film, yet you were happy to link to an article a while ago, where another “expert” believed Holdo’s lightspeed kamikaze was physically possible. Apparently expert opinions are only relevant if they support your narrative.

Nah mate, I post articles for info and that they may be of interest to some - whether people actually read them, believe them, dismiss them, or ignore them is completely up to them. I also don’t repeatedly post about why people should read them - or claim they contain ‘expert opinions’ - so they should read them.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

I find that answer vague and unconvincing. Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves?
Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

Author
Time
 (Edited)

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Well, I disagree entirely. First off, it is obvious we are supposed to side with Poe. Holdo is expecting Poe to follow orders. That he doesn’t is not surprising because she doesn’t share what she is doing. And ultimately it is Poe who turns Holdo’s cunning plan into a disaster. Poe sends Finn and Rose off to solve the problem his way. A daring venture full of risks with a possible payoff. But because they do not find the hacker that Maz recommends (probably because he can be trusted) and they end up with DJ and DJ learns of Holdo’s plan, when the mission goes sour he uses that to get himself out of trouble. As a result most of the resistance is destroyed, rather than losing the one ship and hiding out on Crait until someone came to get them. Poe is a hotshot pilot but that is not what makes a leader. Knowing when to not be the hotshot and play it safe is the lesson he needed and he got it the hard way. However the movie makes it very clear that if he hadn’t gone ahead and destroyed the dreadnaught at the beginning, it would have wiped them out later. So his first reckless act that he got demoted for turned out to be the right thing to do at the time, but after the fallout, Poe is making wiser decisions. Not bad for a character Abrams almost killed off.

That story line is full of old war movie tropes. How Holdo treats Poe, how Poe reacts, and how he learns. That may not be your real world experience, but it is many people’s. And Holdo doesn’t seem like she is much of a people person. One of those who rose to command through brilliant tactics. She obviously is a friend of Leia’s. So her tough treatment of Poe makes a lot of sense. Military methods of leadership are not the same as private sector methods. The military needs people who will follow orders without question plus brilliant strategists. So using civilian leadership techniques to critique a military interaction doesn’t work well. The same rules don’t apply. There is a reason why the traditional drill sergeant is tough and gruff. Dressing down a subordinate in a military setting isn’t about their well being, it is about their discipline and willingness to follow orders. In a military setting you need someone who will not panic and will act on their training no matter the price. In a civilian setting an employee’s life is rarely on the line and you rarely need blind obedience. So it is comparing apples to oranges.

So both on the writing side and on the realism side, this part of the story reflects some brilliant writing. I find the entire movie to be brilliant. I love it more the more I watch it. And it is definitely very Star Wars. War movies and samurai movies were very much a part of the original trilogy and Rian Johnson captured that part far better than Abrams did in TFA. I watched Twelve O’Clock High and Three Outlaw Samurai after I heard they, plus To Catch A Thief, were classics Rian Johnson was watching to prepare for this movie. Three brilliant films that definitely had an influence.

Maybe you should read the link I posted from someone with actual military experience

Still leaning on this I see.

C’mon Frink, no-one in the military has ever got it wrong! We should read everything anyone who has fought says - or else we may not think as Dre wishes, as our lives may depend on it some day, otherwise an ER tv doctor will not save us - or something…

All for a link to article about Holdo not being a feminist (going on the url) - according to someone with actual military experience - who is giving their opinion - not fact - opinion.

My uncle has military experience - served in Northern Ireland. I wouldn’t listen to his opinion on Star Wars - he doesn’t like it. That’s okay. If he wrote an article on SW - or feminism - I wouldn’t read it. Still love him to bits like. If he does write an articles on Star Wars feel free not to read it - or read it, if you want - your call.

C’mon Jason, you wouldn’t know, because you didn’t read the guy’s opinion. Could he be wrong? Sure, but it’s less likely than let’s say the opinion of a mod on a Star Wars forum. If you can present another opinion, that’s actually based on relevant experience or expertise, rather than being a fan of a movie, that refutes this guy’s argument, I will gladly read it. He can even call me a man baby, since expertise and personality are generally not correlated (for example, I would gladly be operated by a brilliant churgin, who’s also an *******). However, until that day comes, I choose to trust a veteran’s opinion over a Star Wars fan when it comes to military situations.

My uncle’s opinion? Not interested - it’s not an ‘expert opinion’ in the context of is Holdo a feminist or not, and comparing real life military to a sci-fi film. I think I’ve already said that - though you seem to ignore many points and questions I’ve previously made/asked on the subject. Please feel free to read them back again - or seemingly not.

My opinion on Holdo being a feminist or not has less value because of someone who fought? Okay…

To be honest - you shouldn’t listen to my opinion - mod or not (What on earth? It doesn’t mean a thing - and am quite surprised you allude it does) - go form your own opinions. You’re free to do that - some have fought for that, so we can make up own own minds and then state them.

I don’t have to refute a man’s opinion or article, nor do I have to read every link put in front of me. Yet I can still state my opinion - and I will do. You want to give it a measure of value? Okay.

You seem very hung up on the feminist angle. Even if that were relevant to judgement of the whole military situation, you don’t know the context of the word, since you didn’t read the article.

Hung up on the feminist angle? No, it is in the url link to the article we are discussing though, isn’t it? A military veteran’s ‘expert opinion’ on Holdo not being a feminist… I’ve stated that a few times - pretty consistent, yes?

You are also not being very consistent. You claim real life military experience is not relevant to a sci-fi film, yet you were happy to link to an article a while ago, where another “expert” believed Holdo’s lightspeed kamikaze was physically possible. Apparently expert opinions are only relevant if they support your narrative.

Nah mate, I post articles for info and that they may be of interest to some - whether people actually read them, believe them, dismiss them, or ignore them is completely up to them. I also don’t repeatedly post about why people should read them - or claim they contain ‘expert opinions’ - so they should.

LOL, I just added a line in my previous post, where I predicted just this answer. You didn’t post it for your own benefit, but for others. I suppose, it just happened to support your narrative accidentally. Nice one!

Yes, it’s the article where you claimed you didn’t judge a book by it’s cover. Yet, you continue to hammer on the title phrase “not a feminist” like it’s some sort of mantra.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Well, I disagree entirely. First off, it is obvious we are supposed to side with Poe. Holdo is expecting Poe to follow orders. That he doesn’t is not surprising because she doesn’t share what she is doing. And ultimately it is Poe who turns Holdo’s cunning plan into a disaster. Poe sends Finn and Rose off to solve the problem his way. A daring venture full of risks with a possible payoff. But because they do not find the hacker that Maz recommends (probably because he can be trusted) and they end up with DJ and DJ learns of Holdo’s plan, when the mission goes sour he uses that to get himself out of trouble. As a result most of the resistance is destroyed, rather than losing the one ship and hiding out on Crait until someone came to get them. Poe is a hotshot pilot but that is not what makes a leader. Knowing when to not be the hotshot and play it safe is the lesson he needed and he got it the hard way. However the movie makes it very clear that if he hadn’t gone ahead and destroyed the dreadnaught at the beginning, it would have wiped them out later. So his first reckless act that he got demoted for turned out to be the right thing to do at the time, but after the fallout, Poe is making wiser decisions. Not bad for a character Abrams almost killed off.

That story line is full of old war movie tropes. How Holdo treats Poe, how Poe reacts, and how he learns. That may not be your real world experience, but it is many people’s. And Holdo doesn’t seem like she is much of a people person. One of those who rose to command through brilliant tactics. She obviously is a friend of Leia’s. So her tough treatment of Poe makes a lot of sense. Military methods of leadership are not the same as private sector methods. The military needs people who will follow orders without question plus brilliant strategists. So using civilian leadership techniques to critique a military interaction doesn’t work well. The same rules don’t apply. There is a reason why the traditional drill sergeant is tough and gruff. Dressing down a subordinate in a military setting isn’t about their well being, it is about their discipline and willingness to follow orders. In a military setting you need someone who will not panic and will act on their training no matter the price. In a civilian setting an employee’s life is rarely on the line and you rarely need blind obedience. So it is comparing apples to oranges.

So both on the writing side and on the realism side, this part of the story reflects some brilliant writing. I find the entire movie to be brilliant. I love it more the more I watch it. And it is definitely very Star Wars. War movies and samurai movies were very much a part of the original trilogy and Rian Johnson captured that part far better than Abrams did in TFA. I watched Twelve O’Clock High and Three Outlaw Samurai after I heard they, plus To Catch A Thief, were classics Rian Johnson was watching to prepare for this movie. Three brilliant films that definitely had an influence.

Maybe you should read the link I posted from someone with actual military experience

Still leaning on this I see.

C’mon Frink, no-one in the military has ever got it wrong! We should read everything anyone who has fought says - or else we may not think as Dre wishes, as our lives may depend on it some day, otherwise an ER tv doctor will not save us - or something…

All for a link to article about Holdo not being a feminist (going on the url) - according to someone with actual military experience - who is giving their opinion - not fact - opinion.

My uncle has military experience - served in Northern Ireland. I wouldn’t listen to his opinion on Star Wars - he doesn’t like it. That’s okay. If he wrote an article on SW - or feminism - I wouldn’t read it. Still love him to bits like. If he does write an articles on Star Wars feel free not to read it - or read it, if you want - your call.

C’mon Jason, you wouldn’t know, because you didn’t read the guy’s opinion. Could he be wrong? Sure, but it’s less likely than let’s say the opinion of a mod on a Star Wars forum. If you can present another opinion, that’s actually based on relevant experience or expertise, rather than being a fan of a movie, that refutes this guy’s argument, I will gladly read it. He can even call me a man baby, since expertise and personality are generally not correlated (for example, I would gladly be operated by a brilliant churgin, who’s also an *******). However, until that day comes, I choose to trust a veteran’s opinion over a Star Wars fan when it comes to military situations.

My uncle’s opinion? Not interested - it’s not an ‘expert opinion’ in the context of is Holdo a feminist or not, and comparing real life military to a sci-fi film. I think I’ve already said that - though you seem to ignore many points and questions I’ve previously made/asked on the subject. Please feel free to read them back again - or seemingly not.

My opinion on Holdo being a feminist or not has less value because of someone who fought? Okay…

To be honest - you shouldn’t listen to my opinion - mod or not (What on earth? It doesn’t mean a thing - and am quite surprised you allude it does) - go form your own opinions. You’re free to do that - some have fought for that, so we can make up own own minds and then state them.

I don’t have to refute a man’s opinion or article, nor do I have to read every link put in front of me. Yet I can still state my opinion - and I will do. You want to give it a measure of value? Okay.

You seem very hung up on the feminist angle. Even if that were relevant to judgement of the whole military situation, you don’t know the context of the word, since you didn’t read the article.

Hung up on the feminist angle? No, it is in the url link to the article we are discussing though, isn’t it? A military veteran’s ‘expert opinion’ on Holdo not being a feminist… I’ve stated that a few times - pretty consistent, yes?

You are also not being very consistent. You claim real life military experience is not relevant to a sci-fi film, yet you were happy to link to an article a while ago, where another “expert” believed Holdo’s lightspeed kamikaze was physically possible. Apparently expert opinions are only relevant if they support your narrative.

Nah mate, I post articles for info and that they may be of interest to some - whether people actually read them, believe them, dismiss them, or ignore them is completely up to them. I also don’t repeatedly post about why people should read them - or claim they contain ‘expert opinions’ - so they should.

LOL, I just added a line in my previous post, where I predicted just this answer. You didn’t post it for your own benefit, but for others, and it just happened to support your narrative accidentally. Nice one!

I post a few articles, pics, political content and news pieces I think some here may be interested in. I think I’ve done it for a good few years here. Yet you seem surprised by this? Or have an issue with this?

Yes, it’s the article where you claimed you didn’t judge a book by it’s cover. Yet, you continue to bring up the title “not being a feminist” like it’s some sort of mantra.

I think you’re the one continuing to being up the subject of the article - not me.

Though I didn’t actually claim that I didn’t judge a book by it’s cover - I did, however, post this…

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

Allways good to hear from someone who knows what he’s talking about. A military veteran gives a real world account of leadership, and why Holdo did not display good leadership while in command:

https://chrishernandezauthor.com/2017/12/31/admiral-holdo-wasnt-a-feminist-she-was-just-a-bad-leader/

I haven’t read the link - though think Holdo demonstrated good leadership in sacrificing herself to save the remaining Rebels in those unarmed ships being easily picked off by the First Order.

I don’t really need to read the views of a military veteran to understand or appreciate this - nor do I care for a military veteran’s reasons as to why she wasn’t a feminist (going on the url link) - or indeed why some think being a feminist matters in this context - but am sure it will come in handy for those that do. Nice one.

You shouldn’t judge a book by its cover, seems an apt statement here.

I believe we should read something first before commenting on it, but anyways in response to your belief that she displayed good leadership, and the fact that you seem to believe uninformed opinion trumps actual combat and leadership experience relating to a combat situation, here goes:

Mate, it’s not a case of judging a book by it’s cover - it’s a case of no longer still being interested in the topic at hand (which to me has been done to death - and then repeated some more, and then dug up again too) - and also not being interested in the views linked in that article you posted upon reading it’s url link.

So hardly an uninformed opinion on this subject, no?

If this combat veteran believes it was poor leadership cool - I don’t. I also don’t read up other articles from combat veterans when they are unhappy with events from other films that I have no issue with either. Nor those that wish to discuss why someone wasn’t a feminist (going on the url link). Well in to those that do, if that’s their thing, though.

I don’t have the time or energy to read through every link on here - and am certainly not going to spend time on this subject which frankly… doesn’t interest me, and I don’t have a problem with.

My previous post stands as it is - and as I said in that post… fair play that your link may interest others. Nice one.

‘it’s not a case of judging a book by it’s cover’ - yes? (rhetorical).

I think we’re done here - the points made in the original post still stand - as you can plainly see. That you try and twist them (again) is on you.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

I find that answer vague and unconvincing. Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves?
Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

Author
Time

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Well, I disagree entirely. First off, it is obvious we are supposed to side with Poe. Holdo is expecting Poe to follow orders. That he doesn’t is not surprising because she doesn’t share what she is doing. And ultimately it is Poe who turns Holdo’s cunning plan into a disaster. Poe sends Finn and Rose off to solve the problem his way. A daring venture full of risks with a possible payoff. But because they do not find the hacker that Maz recommends (probably because he can be trusted) and they end up with DJ and DJ learns of Holdo’s plan, when the mission goes sour he uses that to get himself out of trouble. As a result most of the resistance is destroyed, rather than losing the one ship and hiding out on Crait until someone came to get them. Poe is a hotshot pilot but that is not what makes a leader. Knowing when to not be the hotshot and play it safe is the lesson he needed and he got it the hard way. However the movie makes it very clear that if he hadn’t gone ahead and destroyed the dreadnaught at the beginning, it would have wiped them out later. So his first reckless act that he got demoted for turned out to be the right thing to do at the time, but after the fallout, Poe is making wiser decisions. Not bad for a character Abrams almost killed off.

That story line is full of old war movie tropes. How Holdo treats Poe, how Poe reacts, and how he learns. That may not be your real world experience, but it is many people’s. And Holdo doesn’t seem like she is much of a people person. One of those who rose to command through brilliant tactics. She obviously is a friend of Leia’s. So her tough treatment of Poe makes a lot of sense. Military methods of leadership are not the same as private sector methods. The military needs people who will follow orders without question plus brilliant strategists. So using civilian leadership techniques to critique a military interaction doesn’t work well. The same rules don’t apply. There is a reason why the traditional drill sergeant is tough and gruff. Dressing down a subordinate in a military setting isn’t about their well being, it is about their discipline and willingness to follow orders. In a military setting you need someone who will not panic and will act on their training no matter the price. In a civilian setting an employee’s life is rarely on the line and you rarely need blind obedience. So it is comparing apples to oranges.

So both on the writing side and on the realism side, this part of the story reflects some brilliant writing. I find the entire movie to be brilliant. I love it more the more I watch it. And it is definitely very Star Wars. War movies and samurai movies were very much a part of the original trilogy and Rian Johnson captured that part far better than Abrams did in TFA. I watched Twelve O’Clock High and Three Outlaw Samurai after I heard they, plus To Catch A Thief, were classics Rian Johnson was watching to prepare for this movie. Three brilliant films that definitely had an influence.

Maybe you should read the link I posted from someone with actual military experience

Still leaning on this I see.

C’mon Frink, no-one in the military has ever got it wrong! We should read everything anyone who has fought says - or else we may not think as Dre wishes, as our lives may depend on it some day, otherwise an ER tv doctor will not save us - or something…

All for a link to article about Holdo not being a feminist (going on the url) - according to someone with actual military experience - who is giving their opinion - not fact - opinion.

My uncle has military experience - served in Northern Ireland. I wouldn’t listen to his opinion on Star Wars - he doesn’t like it. That’s okay. If he wrote an article on SW - or feminism - I wouldn’t read it. Still love him to bits like. If he does write an articles on Star Wars feel free not to read it - or read it, if you want - your call.

C’mon Jason, you wouldn’t know, because you didn’t read the guy’s opinion. Could he be wrong? Sure, but it’s less likely than let’s say the opinion of a mod on a Star Wars forum. If you can present another opinion, that’s actually based on relevant experience or expertise, rather than being a fan of a movie, that refutes this guy’s argument, I will gladly read it. He can even call me a man baby, since expertise and personality are generally not correlated (for example, I would gladly be operated by a brilliant churgin, who’s also an *******). However, until that day comes, I choose to trust a veteran’s opinion over a Star Wars fan when it comes to military situations.

My uncle’s opinion? Not interested - it’s not an ‘expert opinion’ in the context of is Holdo a feminist or not, and comparing real life military to a sci-fi film. I think I’ve already said that - though you seem to ignore many points and questions I’ve previously made/asked on the subject. Please feel free to read them back again - or seemingly not.

My opinion on Holdo being a feminist or not has less value because of someone who fought? Okay…

To be honest - you shouldn’t listen to my opinion - mod or not (What on earth? It doesn’t mean a thing - and am quite surprised you allude it does) - go form your own opinions. You’re free to do that - some have fought for that, so we can make up own own minds and then state them.

I don’t have to refute a man’s opinion or article, nor do I have to read every link put in front of me. Yet I can still state my opinion - and I will do. You want to give it a measure of value? Okay.

You seem very hung up on the feminist angle. Even if that were relevant to judgement of the whole military situation, you don’t know the context of the word, since you didn’t read the article.

Hung up on the feminist angle? No, it is in the url link to the article we are discussing though, isn’t it? A military veteran’s ‘expert opinion’ on Holdo not being a feminist… I’ve stated that a few times - pretty consistent, yes?

You are also not being very consistent. You claim real life military experience is not relevant to a sci-fi film, yet you were happy to link to an article a while ago, where another “expert” believed Holdo’s lightspeed kamikaze was physically possible. Apparently expert opinions are only relevant if they support your narrative.

Nah mate, I post articles for info and that they may be of interest to some - whether people actually read them, believe them, dismiss them, or ignore them is completely up to them. I also don’t repeatedly post about why people should read them - or claim they contain ‘expert opinions’ - so they should.

LOL, I just added a line in my previous post, where I predicted just this answer. You didn’t post it for your own benefit, but for others. I suppose, it just happened to support your narrative accidentally. Nice one!

Yes, it’s the article where you claimed you didn’t judge a book by it’s cover. Yet, you continue to hammer on the title phrase “not a feminist” like it’s some sort of mantra.

What’s kind of ridiculous about not reading the article is that it doesn’t bash feminism in any way. It takes apart both the idea that Holdo should be held up as some feminist ideal (discrediting those who’d promote her as such) and that she’s some attempt by Lucasfilm to promote feminism (discrediting the “toxic fans”). The author points out her flaws in a fairly well-reasoned manner.

People get all tweaked over certain words and deliberately keep themselves ignorant to what benefit? I don’t get it.

originaltrilogy.com Administrator

MTFBWY

Author
Time
 (Edited)

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Well, I disagree entirely. First off, it is obvious we are supposed to side with Poe. Holdo is expecting Poe to follow orders. That he doesn’t is not surprising because she doesn’t share what she is doing. And ultimately it is Poe who turns Holdo’s cunning plan into a disaster. Poe sends Finn and Rose off to solve the problem his way. A daring venture full of risks with a possible payoff. But because they do not find the hacker that Maz recommends (probably because he can be trusted) and they end up with DJ and DJ learns of Holdo’s plan, when the mission goes sour he uses that to get himself out of trouble. As a result most of the resistance is destroyed, rather than losing the one ship and hiding out on Crait until someone came to get them. Poe is a hotshot pilot but that is not what makes a leader. Knowing when to not be the hotshot and play it safe is the lesson he needed and he got it the hard way. However the movie makes it very clear that if he hadn’t gone ahead and destroyed the dreadnaught at the beginning, it would have wiped them out later. So his first reckless act that he got demoted for turned out to be the right thing to do at the time, but after the fallout, Poe is making wiser decisions. Not bad for a character Abrams almost killed off.

That story line is full of old war movie tropes. How Holdo treats Poe, how Poe reacts, and how he learns. That may not be your real world experience, but it is many people’s. And Holdo doesn’t seem like she is much of a people person. One of those who rose to command through brilliant tactics. She obviously is a friend of Leia’s. So her tough treatment of Poe makes a lot of sense. Military methods of leadership are not the same as private sector methods. The military needs people who will follow orders without question plus brilliant strategists. So using civilian leadership techniques to critique a military interaction doesn’t work well. The same rules don’t apply. There is a reason why the traditional drill sergeant is tough and gruff. Dressing down a subordinate in a military setting isn’t about their well being, it is about their discipline and willingness to follow orders. In a military setting you need someone who will not panic and will act on their training no matter the price. In a civilian setting an employee’s life is rarely on the line and you rarely need blind obedience. So it is comparing apples to oranges.

So both on the writing side and on the realism side, this part of the story reflects some brilliant writing. I find the entire movie to be brilliant. I love it more the more I watch it. And it is definitely very Star Wars. War movies and samurai movies were very much a part of the original trilogy and Rian Johnson captured that part far better than Abrams did in TFA. I watched Twelve O’Clock High and Three Outlaw Samurai after I heard they, plus To Catch A Thief, were classics Rian Johnson was watching to prepare for this movie. Three brilliant films that definitely had an influence.

Maybe you should read the link I posted from someone with actual military experience

Still leaning on this I see.

C’mon Frink, no-one in the military has ever got it wrong! We should read everything anyone who has fought says - or else we may not think as Dre wishes, as our lives may depend on it some day, otherwise an ER tv doctor will not save us - or something…

All for a link to article about Holdo not being a feminist (going on the url) - according to someone with actual military experience - who is giving their opinion - not fact - opinion.

My uncle has military experience - served in Northern Ireland. I wouldn’t listen to his opinion on Star Wars - he doesn’t like it. That’s okay. If he wrote an article on SW - or feminism - I wouldn’t read it. Still love him to bits like. If he does write an articles on Star Wars feel free not to read it - or read it, if you want - your call.

C’mon Jason, you wouldn’t know, because you didn’t read the guy’s opinion. Could he be wrong? Sure, but it’s less likely than let’s say the opinion of a mod on a Star Wars forum. If you can present another opinion, that’s actually based on relevant experience or expertise, rather than being a fan of a movie, that refutes this guy’s argument, I will gladly read it. He can even call me a man baby, since expertise and personality are generally not correlated (for example, I would gladly be operated by a brilliant churgin, who’s also an *******). However, until that day comes, I choose to trust a veteran’s opinion over a Star Wars fan when it comes to military situations.

My uncle’s opinion? Not interested - it’s not an ‘expert opinion’ in the context of is Holdo a feminist or not, and comparing real life military to a sci-fi film. I think I’ve already said that - though you seem to ignore many points and questions I’ve previously made/asked on the subject. Please feel free to read them back again - or seemingly not.

My opinion on Holdo being a feminist or not has less value because of someone who fought? Okay…

To be honest - you shouldn’t listen to my opinion - mod or not (What on earth? It doesn’t mean a thing - and am quite surprised you allude it does) - go form your own opinions. You’re free to do that - some have fought for that, so we can make up own own minds and then state them.

I don’t have to refute a man’s opinion or article, nor do I have to read every link put in front of me. Yet I can still state my opinion - and I will do. You want to give it a measure of value? Okay.

You seem very hung up on the feminist angle. Even if that were relevant to judgement of the whole military situation, you don’t know the context of the word, since you didn’t read the article.

Hung up on the feminist angle? No, it is in the url link to the article we are discussing though, isn’t it? A military veteran’s ‘expert opinion’ on Holdo not being a feminist… I’ve stated that a few times - pretty consistent, yes?

You are also not being very consistent. You claim real life military experience is not relevant to a sci-fi film, yet you were happy to link to an article a while ago, where another “expert” believed Holdo’s lightspeed kamikaze was physically possible. Apparently expert opinions are only relevant if they support your narrative.

Nah mate, I post articles for info and that they may be of interest to some - whether people actually read them, believe them, dismiss them, or ignore them is completely up to them. I also don’t repeatedly post about why people should read them - or claim they contain ‘expert opinions’ - so they should.

LOL, I just added a line in my previous post, where I predicted just this answer. You didn’t post it for your own benefit, but for others, and it just happened to support your narrative accidentally. Nice one!

I post a few articles, pics, political content and news pieces I think some here may be interested in. I think I’ve done it for a good few years here. Yet you seem surprised by this? Or have an issue with this?

Yes, it’s the article where you claimed you didn’t judge a book by it’s cover. Yet, you continue to bring up the title “not being a feminist” like it’s some sort of mantra.

I think you’re the one continuing to being up the subject of the article - not me.

Though I didn’t actually claim I didn’t judge a book by it’s cover - I did, however, say this…

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

Allways good to hear from someone who knows what he’s talking about. A military veteran gives a real world account of leadership, and why Holdo did not display good leadership while in command:

https://chrishernandezauthor.com/2017/12/31/admiral-holdo-wasnt-a-feminist-she-was-just-a-bad-leader/

I haven’t read the link - though think Holdo demonstrated good leadership in sacrificing herself to save the remaining Rebels in those unarmed ships being easily picked off by the First Order.

I don’t really need to read the views of a military veteran to understand or appreciate this - nor do I care for a military veteran’s reasons as to why she wasn’t a feminist (going on the url link) - or indeed why some think being a feminist matters in this context - but am sure it will come in handy for those that do. Nice one.

You shouldn’t judge a book by its cover, seems an apt statement here.

I believe we should read something first before commenting on it, but anyways in response to your belief that she displayed good leadership, and the fact that you seem to believe uninformed opinion trumps actual combat and leadership experience relating to a combat situation, here goes:

Mate, it’s not a case of judging a book by it’s cover - it’s a case of no longer still being interested in the topic at hand (which to me has been done to death - and then repeated some more, and then dug up again too) - and also not being interested in the views linked in that article you posted upon reading it’s url link.

So hardly an uninformed opinion on this subject, no?

If this combat veteran believes it was poor leadership cool - I don’t. I also don’t read up other articles from combat veterans when they are unhappy with events from other films that I have no issue with either. Nor those that wish to discuss why someone wasn’t a feminist (going on the url link). Well in to those that do, if that’s their thing, though.

I don’t have the time or energy to read through every link on here - and am certainly not going to spend time on this subject which frankly… doesn’t interest me, and I don’t have a problem with.

My previous post stands as it is - and as I said in that post… fair play that your link may interest others. Nice one.

No, I don’t have an issue with any of your links, articles, etc. In fact I’ve read them with great pleasure, and found them very informative, even the ones that I didn’t agree with, or that didn’t have an appealing title.

Let’s drop this discussion before people get the impression, that we don’t like each other. I probably did overdo things with the article, but I felt the need to defend the content and the author.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Jay said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Well, I disagree entirely. First off, it is obvious we are supposed to side with Poe. Holdo is expecting Poe to follow orders. That he doesn’t is not surprising because she doesn’t share what she is doing. And ultimately it is Poe who turns Holdo’s cunning plan into a disaster. Poe sends Finn and Rose off to solve the problem his way. A daring venture full of risks with a possible payoff. But because they do not find the hacker that Maz recommends (probably because he can be trusted) and they end up with DJ and DJ learns of Holdo’s plan, when the mission goes sour he uses that to get himself out of trouble. As a result most of the resistance is destroyed, rather than losing the one ship and hiding out on Crait until someone came to get them. Poe is a hotshot pilot but that is not what makes a leader. Knowing when to not be the hotshot and play it safe is the lesson he needed and he got it the hard way. However the movie makes it very clear that if he hadn’t gone ahead and destroyed the dreadnaught at the beginning, it would have wiped them out later. So his first reckless act that he got demoted for turned out to be the right thing to do at the time, but after the fallout, Poe is making wiser decisions. Not bad for a character Abrams almost killed off.

That story line is full of old war movie tropes. How Holdo treats Poe, how Poe reacts, and how he learns. That may not be your real world experience, but it is many people’s. And Holdo doesn’t seem like she is much of a people person. One of those who rose to command through brilliant tactics. She obviously is a friend of Leia’s. So her tough treatment of Poe makes a lot of sense. Military methods of leadership are not the same as private sector methods. The military needs people who will follow orders without question plus brilliant strategists. So using civilian leadership techniques to critique a military interaction doesn’t work well. The same rules don’t apply. There is a reason why the traditional drill sergeant is tough and gruff. Dressing down a subordinate in a military setting isn’t about their well being, it is about their discipline and willingness to follow orders. In a military setting you need someone who will not panic and will act on their training no matter the price. In a civilian setting an employee’s life is rarely on the line and you rarely need blind obedience. So it is comparing apples to oranges.

So both on the writing side and on the realism side, this part of the story reflects some brilliant writing. I find the entire movie to be brilliant. I love it more the more I watch it. And it is definitely very Star Wars. War movies and samurai movies were very much a part of the original trilogy and Rian Johnson captured that part far better than Abrams did in TFA. I watched Twelve O’Clock High and Three Outlaw Samurai after I heard they, plus To Catch A Thief, were classics Rian Johnson was watching to prepare for this movie. Three brilliant films that definitely had an influence.

Maybe you should read the link I posted from someone with actual military experience

Still leaning on this I see.

C’mon Frink, no-one in the military has ever got it wrong! We should read everything anyone who has fought says - or else we may not think as Dre wishes, as our lives may depend on it some day, otherwise an ER tv doctor will not save us - or something…

All for a link to article about Holdo not being a feminist (going on the url) - according to someone with actual military experience - who is giving their opinion - not fact - opinion.

My uncle has military experience - served in Northern Ireland. I wouldn’t listen to his opinion on Star Wars - he doesn’t like it. That’s okay. If he wrote an article on SW - or feminism - I wouldn’t read it. Still love him to bits like. If he does write an articles on Star Wars feel free not to read it - or read it, if you want - your call.

C’mon Jason, you wouldn’t know, because you didn’t read the guy’s opinion. Could he be wrong? Sure, but it’s less likely than let’s say the opinion of a mod on a Star Wars forum. If you can present another opinion, that’s actually based on relevant experience or expertise, rather than being a fan of a movie, that refutes this guy’s argument, I will gladly read it. He can even call me a man baby, since expertise and personality are generally not correlated (for example, I would gladly be operated by a brilliant churgin, who’s also an *******). However, until that day comes, I choose to trust a veteran’s opinion over a Star Wars fan when it comes to military situations.

My uncle’s opinion? Not interested - it’s not an ‘expert opinion’ in the context of is Holdo a feminist or not, and comparing real life military to a sci-fi film. I think I’ve already said that - though you seem to ignore many points and questions I’ve previously made/asked on the subject. Please feel free to read them back again - or seemingly not.

My opinion on Holdo being a feminist or not has less value because of someone who fought? Okay…

To be honest - you shouldn’t listen to my opinion - mod or not (What on earth? It doesn’t mean a thing - and am quite surprised you allude it does) - go form your own opinions. You’re free to do that - some have fought for that, so we can make up own own minds and then state them.

I don’t have to refute a man’s opinion or article, nor do I have to read every link put in front of me. Yet I can still state my opinion - and I will do. You want to give it a measure of value? Okay.

You seem very hung up on the feminist angle. Even if that were relevant to judgement of the whole military situation, you don’t know the context of the word, since you didn’t read the article.

Hung up on the feminist angle? No, it is in the url link to the article we are discussing though, isn’t it? A military veteran’s ‘expert opinion’ on Holdo not being a feminist… I’ve stated that a few times - pretty consistent, yes?

You are also not being very consistent. You claim real life military experience is not relevant to a sci-fi film, yet you were happy to link to an article a while ago, where another “expert” believed Holdo’s lightspeed kamikaze was physically possible. Apparently expert opinions are only relevant if they support your narrative.

Nah mate, I post articles for info and that they may be of interest to some - whether people actually read them, believe them, dismiss them, or ignore them is completely up to them. I also don’t repeatedly post about why people should read them - or claim they contain ‘expert opinions’ - so they should.

LOL, I just added a line in my previous post, where I predicted just this answer. You didn’t post it for your own benefit, but for others. I suppose, it just happened to support your narrative accidentally. Nice one!

Yes, it’s the article where you claimed you didn’t judge a book by it’s cover. Yet, you continue to hammer on the title phrase “not a feminist” like it’s some sort of mantra.

What’s kind of ridiculous about not reading the article is that it doesn’t bash feminism in any way. It takes apart both the idea that Holdo should be held up as some feminist ideal (discrediting those who’d promote her as such) and that she’s some attempt by Lucasfilm to promote feminism (discrediting the “toxic fans”). The author points out her flaws in a fairly well-reasoned manner.

People get all tweaked over certain words and deliberately keep themselves ignorant to what benefit? I don’t get it.

Yeah, a critic uses the words “not a feminist”, and it immediately gets a red flag. Who knows what kind of misogynist might be hiding behind that title, or phrase.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Jay said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Well, I disagree entirely. First off, it is obvious we are supposed to side with Poe. Holdo is expecting Poe to follow orders. That he doesn’t is not surprising because she doesn’t share what she is doing. And ultimately it is Poe who turns Holdo’s cunning plan into a disaster. Poe sends Finn and Rose off to solve the problem his way. A daring venture full of risks with a possible payoff. But because they do not find the hacker that Maz recommends (probably because he can be trusted) and they end up with DJ and DJ learns of Holdo’s plan, when the mission goes sour he uses that to get himself out of trouble. As a result most of the resistance is destroyed, rather than losing the one ship and hiding out on Crait until someone came to get them. Poe is a hotshot pilot but that is not what makes a leader. Knowing when to not be the hotshot and play it safe is the lesson he needed and he got it the hard way. However the movie makes it very clear that if he hadn’t gone ahead and destroyed the dreadnaught at the beginning, it would have wiped them out later. So his first reckless act that he got demoted for turned out to be the right thing to do at the time, but after the fallout, Poe is making wiser decisions. Not bad for a character Abrams almost killed off.

That story line is full of old war movie tropes. How Holdo treats Poe, how Poe reacts, and how he learns. That may not be your real world experience, but it is many people’s. And Holdo doesn’t seem like she is much of a people person. One of those who rose to command through brilliant tactics. She obviously is a friend of Leia’s. So her tough treatment of Poe makes a lot of sense. Military methods of leadership are not the same as private sector methods. The military needs people who will follow orders without question plus brilliant strategists. So using civilian leadership techniques to critique a military interaction doesn’t work well. The same rules don’t apply. There is a reason why the traditional drill sergeant is tough and gruff. Dressing down a subordinate in a military setting isn’t about their well being, it is about their discipline and willingness to follow orders. In a military setting you need someone who will not panic and will act on their training no matter the price. In a civilian setting an employee’s life is rarely on the line and you rarely need blind obedience. So it is comparing apples to oranges.

So both on the writing side and on the realism side, this part of the story reflects some brilliant writing. I find the entire movie to be brilliant. I love it more the more I watch it. And it is definitely very Star Wars. War movies and samurai movies were very much a part of the original trilogy and Rian Johnson captured that part far better than Abrams did in TFA. I watched Twelve O’Clock High and Three Outlaw Samurai after I heard they, plus To Catch A Thief, were classics Rian Johnson was watching to prepare for this movie. Three brilliant films that definitely had an influence.

Maybe you should read the link I posted from someone with actual military experience

Still leaning on this I see.

C’mon Frink, no-one in the military has ever got it wrong! We should read everything anyone who has fought says - or else we may not think as Dre wishes, as our lives may depend on it some day, otherwise an ER tv doctor will not save us - or something…

All for a link to article about Holdo not being a feminist (going on the url) - according to someone with actual military experience - who is giving their opinion - not fact - opinion.

My uncle has military experience - served in Northern Ireland. I wouldn’t listen to his opinion on Star Wars - he doesn’t like it. That’s okay. If he wrote an article on SW - or feminism - I wouldn’t read it. Still love him to bits like. If he does write an articles on Star Wars feel free not to read it - or read it, if you want - your call.

C’mon Jason, you wouldn’t know, because you didn’t read the guy’s opinion. Could he be wrong? Sure, but it’s less likely than let’s say the opinion of a mod on a Star Wars forum. If you can present another opinion, that’s actually based on relevant experience or expertise, rather than being a fan of a movie, that refutes this guy’s argument, I will gladly read it. He can even call me a man baby, since expertise and personality are generally not correlated (for example, I would gladly be operated by a brilliant churgin, who’s also an *******). However, until that day comes, I choose to trust a veteran’s opinion over a Star Wars fan when it comes to military situations.

My uncle’s opinion? Not interested - it’s not an ‘expert opinion’ in the context of is Holdo a feminist or not, and comparing real life military to a sci-fi film. I think I’ve already said that - though you seem to ignore many points and questions I’ve previously made/asked on the subject. Please feel free to read them back again - or seemingly not.

My opinion on Holdo being a feminist or not has less value because of someone who fought? Okay…

To be honest - you shouldn’t listen to my opinion - mod or not (What on earth? It doesn’t mean a thing - and am quite surprised you allude it does) - go form your own opinions. You’re free to do that - some have fought for that, so we can make up own own minds and then state them.

I don’t have to refute a man’s opinion or article, nor do I have to read every link put in front of me. Yet I can still state my opinion - and I will do. You want to give it a measure of value? Okay.

You seem very hung up on the feminist angle. Even if that were relevant to judgement of the whole military situation, you don’t know the context of the word, since you didn’t read the article.

Hung up on the feminist angle? No, it is in the url link to the article we are discussing though, isn’t it? A military veteran’s ‘expert opinion’ on Holdo not being a feminist… I’ve stated that a few times - pretty consistent, yes?

You are also not being very consistent. You claim real life military experience is not relevant to a sci-fi film, yet you were happy to link to an article a while ago, where another “expert” believed Holdo’s lightspeed kamikaze was physically possible. Apparently expert opinions are only relevant if they support your narrative.

Nah mate, I post articles for info and that they may be of interest to some - whether people actually read them, believe them, dismiss them, or ignore them is completely up to them. I also don’t repeatedly post about why people should read them - or claim they contain ‘expert opinions’ - so they should.

LOL, I just added a line in my previous post, where I predicted just this answer. You didn’t post it for your own benefit, but for others. I suppose, it just happened to support your narrative accidentally. Nice one!

Yes, it’s the article where you claimed you didn’t judge a book by it’s cover. Yet, you continue to hammer on the title phrase “not a feminist” like it’s some sort of mantra.

What’s kind of ridiculous about not reading the article is that it doesn’t bash feminism in any way. It takes apart both the idea that Holdo should be held up as some feminist ideal (discrediting those who’d promote her as such) and that she’s some attempt by Lucasfilm to promote feminism (discrediting the “toxic fans”). The author points out her flaws in a fairly well-reasoned manner.

People get all tweaked over certain words and deliberately keep themselves ignorant to what benefit? I don’t get it.

Jay, I don’t care if the article bashes feminism (or praises it, or is somewhere in between) - as you’ll see from my first two replies to Dre on the subject…

oojason said:

DrDre said:

Allways good to hear from someone who knows what he’s talking about. A military veteran gives a real world account of leadership, and why Holdo did not display good leadership while in command:

https://chrishernandezauthor.com/2017/12/31/admiral-holdo-wasnt-a-feminist-she-was-just-a-bad-leader/

I haven’t read the link - though think Holdo demonstrated good leadership in sacrificing herself to save the remaining Rebels in those unarmed ships being easily picked off by the First Order.

I don’t really need to read the views of a military veteran to understand or appreciate this - nor do I care for a military veteran’s reasons as to why she wasn’t a feminist (going on the url link) - or indeed why some think being a feminist matters in this context - but am sure it will come in handy for those that do. Nice one.

&

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

Allways good to hear from someone who knows what he’s talking about. A military veteran gives a real world account of leadership, and why Holdo did not display good leadership while in command:

https://chrishernandezauthor.com/2017/12/31/admiral-holdo-wasnt-a-feminist-she-was-just-a-bad-leader/

I haven’t read the link - though think Holdo demonstrated good leadership in sacrificing herself to save the remaining Rebels in those unarmed ships being easily picked off by the First Order.

I don’t really need to read the views of a military veteran to understand or appreciate this - nor do I care for a military veteran’s reasons as to why she wasn’t a feminist (going on the url link) - or indeed why some think being a feminist matters in this context - but am sure it will come in handy for those that do. Nice one.

You shouldn’t judge a book by its cover, seems an apt statement here.

I believe we should read something first before commenting on it, but anyways in response to your belief that she displayed good leadership, and the fact that you seem to believe uninformed opinion trumps actual combat and leadership experience relating to a combat situation, here goes:

Mate, it’s not a case of judging a book by it’s cover - it’s a case of no longer still being interested in the topic at hand (which to me has been done to death - and then repeated some more, and then dug up again too) - and also not being interested in the views linked in that article you posted upon reading it’s url link.

So hardly an uninformed opinion on this subject, no?

If this combat veteran believes it was poor leadership cool - I don’t. I also don’t read up other articles from combat veterans when they are unhappy with events from other films that I have no issue with either. Nor those that wish to discuss why someone wasn’t a feminist (going on the url link). Well in to those that do, if that’s their thing, though.

I don’t have the time or energy to read through every link on here - and am certainly not going to spend time on this subject which frankly… doesn’t interest me, and I don’t have a problem with.

My previous post stands as it is - and as I said in that post… fair play that your link may interest others. Nice one.

nor do I think I’m deliberately keeping myself ignorant on the subject of feminism by not reading the ‘expert opinion’ of a combat veteran’s article on it. There are more than enough quality articles from varying angles and opinions out there - by people whose positions/experiences/situations who do interest or intrigue me. I’ve read a few over the years, and will likely be reading more in the future too. More on Admiral Holdo? Very likely not - I’ve read too much crap about her already - and it’s only been 7 a bit months since TLJ - it seems like years, it actually seems I’ve read more on Holdo in that time that I ever have about Leia.

Fatigue is a kicker, yet please don’t mistake it for ignorance.

If the url link is a misnomer or doesn’t accurately reflect the article then the author should consider changing it - though maybe that affects the SEO and amount of hits he’ll get with certain ‘buzzwords’ removed?

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

I find that answer vague and unconvincing. Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves?
Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

Author
Time

oojason said:

Jay said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Well, I disagree entirely. First off, it is obvious we are supposed to side with Poe. Holdo is expecting Poe to follow orders. That he doesn’t is not surprising because she doesn’t share what she is doing. And ultimately it is Poe who turns Holdo’s cunning plan into a disaster. Poe sends Finn and Rose off to solve the problem his way. A daring venture full of risks with a possible payoff. But because they do not find the hacker that Maz recommends (probably because he can be trusted) and they end up with DJ and DJ learns of Holdo’s plan, when the mission goes sour he uses that to get himself out of trouble. As a result most of the resistance is destroyed, rather than losing the one ship and hiding out on Crait until someone came to get them. Poe is a hotshot pilot but that is not what makes a leader. Knowing when to not be the hotshot and play it safe is the lesson he needed and he got it the hard way. However the movie makes it very clear that if he hadn’t gone ahead and destroyed the dreadnaught at the beginning, it would have wiped them out later. So his first reckless act that he got demoted for turned out to be the right thing to do at the time, but after the fallout, Poe is making wiser decisions. Not bad for a character Abrams almost killed off.

That story line is full of old war movie tropes. How Holdo treats Poe, how Poe reacts, and how he learns. That may not be your real world experience, but it is many people’s. And Holdo doesn’t seem like she is much of a people person. One of those who rose to command through brilliant tactics. She obviously is a friend of Leia’s. So her tough treatment of Poe makes a lot of sense. Military methods of leadership are not the same as private sector methods. The military needs people who will follow orders without question plus brilliant strategists. So using civilian leadership techniques to critique a military interaction doesn’t work well. The same rules don’t apply. There is a reason why the traditional drill sergeant is tough and gruff. Dressing down a subordinate in a military setting isn’t about their well being, it is about their discipline and willingness to follow orders. In a military setting you need someone who will not panic and will act on their training no matter the price. In a civilian setting an employee’s life is rarely on the line and you rarely need blind obedience. So it is comparing apples to oranges.

So both on the writing side and on the realism side, this part of the story reflects some brilliant writing. I find the entire movie to be brilliant. I love it more the more I watch it. And it is definitely very Star Wars. War movies and samurai movies were very much a part of the original trilogy and Rian Johnson captured that part far better than Abrams did in TFA. I watched Twelve O’Clock High and Three Outlaw Samurai after I heard they, plus To Catch A Thief, were classics Rian Johnson was watching to prepare for this movie. Three brilliant films that definitely had an influence.

Maybe you should read the link I posted from someone with actual military experience

Still leaning on this I see.

C’mon Frink, no-one in the military has ever got it wrong! We should read everything anyone who has fought says - or else we may not think as Dre wishes, as our lives may depend on it some day, otherwise an ER tv doctor will not save us - or something…

All for a link to article about Holdo not being a feminist (going on the url) - according to someone with actual military experience - who is giving their opinion - not fact - opinion.

My uncle has military experience - served in Northern Ireland. I wouldn’t listen to his opinion on Star Wars - he doesn’t like it. That’s okay. If he wrote an article on SW - or feminism - I wouldn’t read it. Still love him to bits like. If he does write an articles on Star Wars feel free not to read it - or read it, if you want - your call.

C’mon Jason, you wouldn’t know, because you didn’t read the guy’s opinion. Could he be wrong? Sure, but it’s less likely than let’s say the opinion of a mod on a Star Wars forum. If you can present another opinion, that’s actually based on relevant experience or expertise, rather than being a fan of a movie, that refutes this guy’s argument, I will gladly read it. He can even call me a man baby, since expertise and personality are generally not correlated (for example, I would gladly be operated by a brilliant churgin, who’s also an *******). However, until that day comes, I choose to trust a veteran’s opinion over a Star Wars fan when it comes to military situations.

My uncle’s opinion? Not interested - it’s not an ‘expert opinion’ in the context of is Holdo a feminist or not, and comparing real life military to a sci-fi film. I think I’ve already said that - though you seem to ignore many points and questions I’ve previously made/asked on the subject. Please feel free to read them back again - or seemingly not.

My opinion on Holdo being a feminist or not has less value because of someone who fought? Okay…

To be honest - you shouldn’t listen to my opinion - mod or not (What on earth? It doesn’t mean a thing - and am quite surprised you allude it does) - go form your own opinions. You’re free to do that - some have fought for that, so we can make up own own minds and then state them.

I don’t have to refute a man’s opinion or article, nor do I have to read every link put in front of me. Yet I can still state my opinion - and I will do. You want to give it a measure of value? Okay.

You seem very hung up on the feminist angle. Even if that were relevant to judgement of the whole military situation, you don’t know the context of the word, since you didn’t read the article.

Hung up on the feminist angle? No, it is in the url link to the article we are discussing though, isn’t it? A military veteran’s ‘expert opinion’ on Holdo not being a feminist… I’ve stated that a few times - pretty consistent, yes?

You are also not being very consistent. You claim real life military experience is not relevant to a sci-fi film, yet you were happy to link to an article a while ago, where another “expert” believed Holdo’s lightspeed kamikaze was physically possible. Apparently expert opinions are only relevant if they support your narrative.

Nah mate, I post articles for info and that they may be of interest to some - whether people actually read them, believe them, dismiss them, or ignore them is completely up to them. I also don’t repeatedly post about why people should read them - or claim they contain ‘expert opinions’ - so they should.

LOL, I just added a line in my previous post, where I predicted just this answer. You didn’t post it for your own benefit, but for others. I suppose, it just happened to support your narrative accidentally. Nice one!

Yes, it’s the article where you claimed you didn’t judge a book by it’s cover. Yet, you continue to hammer on the title phrase “not a feminist” like it’s some sort of mantra.

What’s kind of ridiculous about not reading the article is that it doesn’t bash feminism in any way. It takes apart both the idea that Holdo should be held up as some feminist ideal (discrediting those who’d promote her as such) and that she’s some attempt by Lucasfilm to promote feminism (discrediting the “toxic fans”). The author points out her flaws in a fairly well-reasoned manner.

People get all tweaked over certain words and deliberately keep themselves ignorant to what benefit? I don’t get it.

Jay, I don’t care if the article bashes feminism (or praises it, or is somewhere in between) - as you’ll see from my first two replies to Dre on the subject…

oojason said:

DrDre said:

Allways good to hear from someone who knows what he’s talking about. A military veteran gives a real world account of leadership, and why Holdo did not display good leadership while in command:

https://chrishernandezauthor.com/2017/12/31/admiral-holdo-wasnt-a-feminist-she-was-just-a-bad-leader/

I haven’t read the link - though think Holdo demonstrated good leadership in sacrificing herself to save the remaining Rebels in those unarmed ships being easily picked off by the First Order.

I don’t really need to read the views of a military veteran to understand or appreciate this - nor do I care for a military veteran’s reasons as to why she wasn’t a feminist (going on the url link) - or indeed why some think being a feminist matters in this context - but am sure it will come in handy for those that do. Nice one.

&

oojason said:

DrDre said:

oojason said:

DrDre said:

Allways good to hear from someone who knows what he’s talking about. A military veteran gives a real world account of leadership, and why Holdo did not display good leadership while in command:

https://chrishernandezauthor.com/2017/12/31/admiral-holdo-wasnt-a-feminist-she-was-just-a-bad-leader/

I haven’t read the link - though think Holdo demonstrated good leadership in sacrificing herself to save the remaining Rebels in those unarmed ships being easily picked off by the First Order.

I don’t really need to read the views of a military veteran to understand or appreciate this - nor do I care for a military veteran’s reasons as to why she wasn’t a feminist (going on the url link) - or indeed why some think being a feminist matters in this context - but am sure it will come in handy for those that do. Nice one.

You shouldn’t judge a book by its cover, seems an apt statement here.

I believe we should read something first before commenting on it, but anyways in response to your belief that she displayed good leadership, and the fact that you seem to believe uninformed opinion trumps actual combat and leadership experience relating to a combat situation, here goes:

Mate, it’s not a case of judging a book by it’s cover - it’s a case of no longer still being interested in the topic at hand (which to me has been done to death - and then repeated some more, and then dug up again too) - and also not being interested in the views linked in that article you posted upon reading it’s url link.

So hardly an uninformed opinion on this subject, no?

If this combat veteran believes it was poor leadership cool - I don’t. I also don’t read up other articles from combat veterans when they are unhappy with events from other films that I have no issue with either. Nor those that wish to discuss why someone wasn’t a feminist (going on the url link). Well in to those that do, if that’s their thing, though.

I don’t have the time or energy to read through every link on here - and am certainly not going to spend time on this subject which frankly… doesn’t interest me, and I don’t have a problem with.

My previous post stands as it is - and as I said in that post… fair play that your link may interest others. Nice one.

nor do I think I’m deliberately keeping myself ignorant on the subject of feminism by not reading the ‘expert opinion’ of a combat veteran’s article on it. There are more than enough quality articles from varying angles and opinions out there - by people whose positions/experiences/situations who do interest or intrigue me. I’ve read a few over the years, and will likely be reading more in the future too. More on Admiral Holdo? Very likely not - I’ve read too much crap about her already - and it’s only been 7 a bit months since TLJ - it seems like years, it actually seems I’ve read more on Holdo in that time that I ever have about Leia.

Fatigue is a kicker, yet please don’t mistake it for ignorance.

If the url link is a misnomer or doesn’t accurately reflect the article then the author should consider changing it - though maybe that affects the SEO and amount of hits he’ll get with certain ‘buzzwords’ removed?

The article isn’t about feminism and the title isn’t a misnomer. Reading the article makes the point that Holdo’s “strong” leadership decisions aren’t about her being a feminist role model, which is how some of the media portray her character. They’re just bad decisions regardless of gender or politics.

I wasn’t targeting you specifically with my comments. I agree with DrDre’s general observations though that there’s an attitude of “I don’t have to acknowledge your ideas because I’ve already made up my mind” going around, yet there are still plenty of opinions on offer. Maybe he mistook your comments for that, and if that’s not the case, no big deal. If you don’t want to read an article supporting a different viewpoint, no problem.

Generally speaking, I don’t see the purpose of posts from people saying they’re tired of the debate, they don’t want to participate, they’re leaving the thread, etc., only to show up again and again. When I’m tired, I don’t stay up for another hour or two talking about going to sleep. I go to sleep.

originaltrilogy.com Administrator

MTFBWY

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oojason said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Well, I disagree entirely. First off, it is obvious we are supposed to side with Poe. Holdo is expecting Poe to follow orders. That he doesn’t is not surprising because she doesn’t share what she is doing. And ultimately it is Poe who turns Holdo’s cunning plan into a disaster. Poe sends Finn and Rose off to solve the problem his way. A daring venture full of risks with a possible payoff. But because they do not find the hacker that Maz recommends (probably because he can be trusted) and they end up with DJ and DJ learns of Holdo’s plan, when the mission goes sour he uses that to get himself out of trouble. As a result most of the resistance is destroyed, rather than losing the one ship and hiding out on Crait until someone came to get them. Poe is a hotshot pilot but that is not what makes a leader. Knowing when to not be the hotshot and play it safe is the lesson he needed and he got it the hard way. However the movie makes it very clear that if he hadn’t gone ahead and destroyed the dreadnaught at the beginning, it would have wiped them out later. So his first reckless act that he got demoted for turned out to be the right thing to do at the time, but after the fallout, Poe is making wiser decisions. Not bad for a character Abrams almost killed off.

That story line is full of old war movie tropes. How Holdo treats Poe, how Poe reacts, and how he learns. That may not be your real world experience, but it is many people’s. And Holdo doesn’t seem like she is much of a people person. One of those who rose to command through brilliant tactics. She obviously is a friend of Leia’s. So her tough treatment of Poe makes a lot of sense. Military methods of leadership are not the same as private sector methods. The military needs people who will follow orders without question plus brilliant strategists. So using civilian leadership techniques to critique a military interaction doesn’t work well. The same rules don’t apply. There is a reason why the traditional drill sergeant is tough and gruff. Dressing down a subordinate in a military setting isn’t about their well being, it is about their discipline and willingness to follow orders. In a military setting you need someone who will not panic and will act on their training no matter the price. In a civilian setting an employee’s life is rarely on the line and you rarely need blind obedience. So it is comparing apples to oranges.

So both on the writing side and on the realism side, this part of the story reflects some brilliant writing. I find the entire movie to be brilliant. I love it more the more I watch it. And it is definitely very Star Wars. War movies and samurai movies were very much a part of the original trilogy and Rian Johnson captured that part far better than Abrams did in TFA. I watched Twelve O’Clock High and Three Outlaw Samurai after I heard they, plus To Catch A Thief, were classics Rian Johnson was watching to prepare for this movie. Three brilliant films that definitely had an influence.

Maybe you should read the link I posted from someone with actual military experience

Still leaning on this I see.

C’mon Frink, no-one in the military has ever got it wrong! We should read everything anyone who has fought says - or else we may not think as others think we should, as our lives may depend on it some day, otherwise an ER tv doctor will not save us - or something…

How does SW or war movie logic equate to anything in the real world though? These are broad character archetypes and well worn arcs. This is a series where people are promoted to Commander and even General whenever anything vaguely heroic happens.

Yub Nub for life

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Mocata said:

oojason said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

Well, I disagree entirely. First off, it is obvious we are supposed to side with Poe. Holdo is expecting Poe to follow orders. That he doesn’t is not surprising because she doesn’t share what she is doing. And ultimately it is Poe who turns Holdo’s cunning plan into a disaster. Poe sends Finn and Rose off to solve the problem his way. A daring venture full of risks with a possible payoff. But because they do not find the hacker that Maz recommends (probably because he can be trusted) and they end up with DJ and DJ learns of Holdo’s plan, when the mission goes sour he uses that to get himself out of trouble. As a result most of the resistance is destroyed, rather than losing the one ship and hiding out on Crait until someone came to get them. Poe is a hotshot pilot but that is not what makes a leader. Knowing when to not be the hotshot and play it safe is the lesson he needed and he got it the hard way. However the movie makes it very clear that if he hadn’t gone ahead and destroyed the dreadnaught at the beginning, it would have wiped them out later. So his first reckless act that he got demoted for turned out to be the right thing to do at the time, but after the fallout, Poe is making wiser decisions. Not bad for a character Abrams almost killed off.

That story line is full of old war movie tropes. How Holdo treats Poe, how Poe reacts, and how he learns. That may not be your real world experience, but it is many people’s. And Holdo doesn’t seem like she is much of a people person. One of those who rose to command through brilliant tactics. She obviously is a friend of Leia’s. So her tough treatment of Poe makes a lot of sense. Military methods of leadership are not the same as private sector methods. The military needs people who will follow orders without question plus brilliant strategists. So using civilian leadership techniques to critique a military interaction doesn’t work well. The same rules don’t apply. There is a reason why the traditional drill sergeant is tough and gruff. Dressing down a subordinate in a military setting isn’t about their well being, it is about their discipline and willingness to follow orders. In a military setting you need someone who will not panic and will act on their training no matter the price. In a civilian setting an employee’s life is rarely on the line and you rarely need blind obedience. So it is comparing apples to oranges.

So both on the writing side and on the realism side, this part of the story reflects some brilliant writing. I find the entire movie to be brilliant. I love it more the more I watch it. And it is definitely very Star Wars. War movies and samurai movies were very much a part of the original trilogy and Rian Johnson captured that part far better than Abrams did in TFA. I watched Twelve O’Clock High and Three Outlaw Samurai after I heard they, plus To Catch A Thief, were classics Rian Johnson was watching to prepare for this movie. Three brilliant films that definitely had an influence.

Maybe you should read the link I posted from someone with actual military experience

Still leaning on this I see.

C’mon Frink, no-one in the military has ever got it wrong! We should read everything anyone who has fought says - or else we may not think as others think we should, as our lives may depend on it some day, otherwise an ER tv doctor will not save us - or something…

How does SW or war movie logic equate to anything in the real world though? These are broad character archetypes and well worn arcs. This is a series where people are promoted to Commander and even General whenever anything vaguely heroic happens.

This^^

You’re applying real world logic to a movie about SPACE WIZARDS.

I mean, where are the military articles about Emperor Ming’s or Colonel Miles’ tactical abilities?

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.

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Emperor Ming wasn’t a feminist, he was a bad leader.

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I guess you guys were also this lenient in the case of the PT. O wait, many of you were not. I mean talking about sand is just how people get into a committed relationship in this universe. Of course a guy like Anakin can suddenly hate the Jedi, and Leia can remember the mother she saw for a few seconds as a baby. Logic, and real world human interactions shouldn’t matter, because you know, it’s a space fantasy!

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No one hated Anakin taking about sand or turning to the dark side because of the logic of them.

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DominicCobb said:

No one hated Anakin taking about sand or turning to the dark side because of the logic of them.

Really? Padme saying she loved Anakin wasn’t believable, because it didn’t make much logical sense considering Anakin’s creepy behaviour and his other actions the story. The lack of logic obviously stems from the fact, that such a course of events would not make sense in a romance in the real world. This has been stated over, and over again in critical arguments about the romance in the PT, so your argument, that no one disliked the PT, because of lack of logic and consistency seems faulty to me. The same goes for Anakin, who almost instanteneously goes from conflicted Jedi to murdering psychopath. This also doesn’t make logical sense to many people, and has also been analyzed and discussed endlessly.

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I’ll throw my two cents in here, though I’m really hesitant to.

Holdo’s character works (for me at least) because her motivations conflict with Poe’s motivations. There needs to be conflict in a story or else there is no story, right? Right.

Poe wants to keep blowing star destroyers up with his X-wing, which could result in the death of the rest of the sqaudron, while Holdo wants to keep the Resistance together and prevent any further causalities. So, they butt heads. And in the end, Poe realizes that she had the best interests of the Resistance at heart.

Sure, she didn’t need to be super vague or rude to Poe, but it was at the service of Poe learning a lesson – follow orders and don’t immediately resort to blowing something up. I’m not the biggest fan of TLJ, but even I can see that her character serves a good purpose in the story.

Another thing, who cares if Star Wars doesn’t follow real life military protocol? It’s Star Wars.

“That said, there is nothing wrong with mocking prequel lovers and belittling their bad taste.” - Alderaan, 2017

MGGA (Make GOUT Great Again):
http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Return-of-the-GOUT-Preservation-and-Restoration/id/55707

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Mocata said:

Maybe you should read the link I posted from someone with actual desert silica experience

ALLOL

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

No one hated Anakin taking about sand or turning to the dark side because of the logic of them.

Really? Padme saying she loved Anakin wasn’t believable, because it didn’t make much logical sense considering Anakin’s creepy behaviour and his other actions the story. The lack of logic obviously stems from the fact, that such a course of events would not make sense in a romance in the real world. This has been stated over, and over again in critical arguments about the romance in the PT, so your argument, that no one disliked the PT, because of lack of logic and consistency seems faulty to me. The same goes for Anakin, who almost instanteneously goes from conflicted Jedi to murdering psychopath. This also doesn’t make logical sense to many people, and has also been analyzed and discussed endlessly.

You’re attributing the logic to other issues. The problem with Anakin and Padme’s romance isn’t real world logic. The problem is a lot of other things. Cringey dialogue. Wooden acting. Inconsistent character motivations. Complete lack of chemistry. Anakin’s total lack of charm and altogether creepyness. Poorly structured sequences. Unearned emotional moments. They don’t act like real humans, sure, but that’s not a logic problem. That’s simply a baseline problem of them being human characters with human emotions that are capable of understanding on this most basic level. Not every film with a military needs to be logically sound with real world military. But if your film doesn’t feature people acting like people (unless it’s on purpose like in The Lobster or a Wes Anderson movie or something), you got some real problems.

Anakin turning on a dime isn’t bad real world logic. It’s a problem of believability of the progression of his character arc. The film paints a poor and contradictory portrait of his head space throughout, and takes a narrative short cut in terms of his motivations (which is especially problematic as he is the main character). None of this has anything to do with real world logic, just pure storytelling mechanics.

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Mocata said:

Maybe you should read the link I posted from someone with actual desert silica experience

Real life anecdotes do not affect how I enjoy fictional entertainment.

JEDIT

Oh, you’re not being serious? This is embarrassing. My bad. Move along.

“That said, there is nothing wrong with mocking prequel lovers and belittling their bad taste.” - Alderaan, 2017

MGGA (Make GOUT Great Again):
http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Return-of-the-GOUT-Preservation-and-Restoration/id/55707

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JawsTDS said:

Mocata said:

Maybe you should read the link I posted from someone with actual desert silica experience

Real life anecdotes do not affect how I enjoy fictional entertainment.

But does sarcasm affect how you interact with a discussion formum?

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DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

No one hated Anakin taking about sand or turning to the dark side because of the logic of them.

Really? Padme saying she loved Anakin wasn’t believable, because it didn’t make much logical sense considering Anakin’s creepy behaviour and his other actions the story. The lack of logic obviously stems from the fact, that such a course of events would not make sense in a romance in the real world. This has been stated over, and over again in critical arguments about the romance in the PT, so your argument, that no one disliked the PT, because of lack of logic and consistency seems faulty to me. The same goes for Anakin, who almost instanteneously goes from conflicted Jedi to murdering psychopath. This also doesn’t make logical sense to many people, and has also been analyzed and discussed endlessly.

You’re attributing the logic to other issues. The problem with Anakin and Padme’s romance isn’t real world logic. The problem is a lot of other things. Cringey dialogue. Wooden acting. Inconsistent character motivations. Complete lack of chemistry. Anakin’s total lack of charm and altogether creepyness. Poorly structured sequences. Unearned emotional moments.

Anakin turning on a dime isn’t bad real world logic. It’s a problem of believability of the profession of his character arc. The film paints a poor and contradictory portrait of his head space throughout, and takes a narrative short cut in terms of his motivations (which is especially problematic as he is the main character). None of this has anything to do with real world logic, just pure storytelling mechanics.

Storytelling mechanics and real world logic are intimately connected, as we use our real world experience as the benchmark for what does, and doesn’t make sense in a story. Stories can take liberties for dramatic purposes, but in a general sense, a story should make sense internally and usually to a large extend externally as well. If a character witholds vital information from another character, and the audience, this should make sense in the story. The character should have the proper motivations throughout the story arc. In TLJ Holdo’s initial motivation appears to be teaching Poe a lesson, and putting him in his place. However, this lesson also results in a mutiny, and ends up putting the Resistance in even greater danger. Holdo keeps witholding information even when it is obviously no longer in her best interests, and those of the people she is responsible for. She keeps silent when Poe forces her out of her position, apparently for no other reason than to have a story twist later in the story involving Leia. In your words Holdo’s character motivations are inconsistent. As a leader she should protect the interests of the Resistance (and herself), but she doesn’t, because apparently RJ already told her how the mutiny would play out. From an in-story perspective Holdo shouldn’t know this, and Poe’s mutiny could result in the destruction of the entire Resistance. The fact that she passively accepts this without informing Poe of the reality of the situation just doesn’t make logical and story sense.

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TV’s Frink said:

JawsTDS said:

Mocata said:

Maybe you should read the link I posted from someone with actual desert silica experience

Real life anecdotes do not affect how I enjoy fictional entertainment.

But does sarcasm affect how you interact with a discussion formum?

I can never tell who’s serious in this thread.

“That said, there is nothing wrong with mocking prequel lovers and belittling their bad taste.” - Alderaan, 2017

MGGA (Make GOUT Great Again):
http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Return-of-the-GOUT-Preservation-and-Restoration/id/55707

Author
Time
 (Edited)

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

No one hated Anakin taking about sand or turning to the dark side because of the logic of them.

Really? Padme saying she loved Anakin wasn’t believable, because it didn’t make much logical sense considering Anakin’s creepy behaviour and his other actions the story. The lack of logic obviously stems from the fact, that such a course of events would not make sense in a romance in the real world. This has been stated over, and over again in critical arguments about the romance in the PT, so your argument, that no one disliked the PT, because of lack of logic and consistency seems faulty to me. The same goes for Anakin, who almost instanteneously goes from conflicted Jedi to murdering psychopath. This also doesn’t make logical sense to many people, and has also been analyzed and discussed endlessly.

You’re attributing the logic to other issues. The problem with Anakin and Padme’s romance isn’t real world logic. The problem is a lot of other things. Cringey dialogue. Wooden acting. Inconsistent character motivations. Complete lack of chemistry. Anakin’s total lack of charm and altogether creepyness. Poorly structured sequences. Unearned emotional moments.

Anakin turning on a dime isn’t bad real world logic. It’s a problem of believability of the profession of his character arc. The film paints a poor and contradictory portrait of his head space throughout, and takes a narrative short cut in terms of his motivations (which is especially problematic as he is the main character). None of this has anything to do with real world logic, just pure storytelling mechanics.

Storytelling mechanics and real world logic are intimately connected, as we use our real world experience as the benchmark for what does, and doesn’t make sense in a story. Stories can take liberties for dramatic purposes, but in a general sense, a story should make sense internally and usually to a large extend externally as well. If a character witholds vital information from another character, and the audience, this should make sense in the story. The character should have the proper motivations throughout the story arc. In TLJ Holdo’s initial motivation appears to be teaching Poe a lesson, and putting him in his place. However, this lesson also results in a mutiny, and ends up putting the Resistance in even greater danger. Holdo keeps witholding information even when it is obviously no longer in her best interests, and those of the people she is responsible for. She keeps silent when Poe forces her out of her position, apparently for no other reason than to have a story twist later in the story involving Leia. In your words Holdo’s character motivations are inconsistent. As a leader she should protect the interests of the Resistance (and herself), but she doesn’t, because apparently RJ already told her how the mutiny would play out. From an in-story perspective Holdo shouldn’t know this, and Poe’s mutiny could result in the destruction of the entire Resistance. The fact that she passively accepts this without informing Poe of the reality of the situation just doesn’t make logical and story sense.

I see no inconsistency in her motivations and in the story logic. It all makes perfect, easily understood sense. If she wasn’t going to tell him her plan before, she’s definitely not going to when he has a gun pointed at her. Especially considering she seems pretty confident she can take back control (which she, of course, does).