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Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 66

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rodneyfaile said:

That is one of the things I hated about the prequels. I’m all up for redemption and everything, but when you slaughter a school full of kids, I don’t think you get to come back from that.

In all fairness, they did like sand. 😉

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

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rodneyfaile said:

That is one of the things I hated about the prequels. I’m all up for redemption and everything, but when you slaughter a school full of kids, I don’t think you get to come back from that.

In The Making of Return of the Jedi, the writers also had a problem with Vader becoming a Force Ghost at the end, but Lucas was adamant that even someone who committed atrocities could be redeemed. I very much agree with this.

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Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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i think it would make sense to see a still conflicted anakin and it would be an interesting development in the story

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its still possible for people to become more powerful in the force and learn more about it while your a force ghost so it makes sense that a force ghost could also be pulled to the dark side and since anakin wasnt as powerful in the light as he was in the dark at the time of his death he could still be being pulled by the dark side when he is a ghost

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I would dislike it the way I disliked Alien 3: While the plot technically did not contradict Aliens, it felt like a betrayal of what that film implied and meant.
The redemption of Vader in a ‘melt the heart of tyrants’ way is what I love about ROTJ. If we get Anakin’s ghost in TLJ, I’d hope it would be in a role of wisdom or guidance rather than unresolved tensions.
It was never about whether Vader tipped the moral scales by counterweighing evil deeds with one good deed, but about his own change of heart. He repented, if you will, and that’s what ROTJ cares about, not a moral equation.

Well done. I will disengage self-destruct initiative.

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I really hope that mentality goes out the window if they seek to redeem Ben Solo. Even what he’s done so far leaves little room for some people to accept him turning back to the light. Disney needs to approach the situation knowing that they have to appeal to people’s logic in addition to having Leia forgive him. If the good deed is too personal/small and if the reasons for turning back aren’t sufficient a lot of people will have a problem with it.

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Then a lot of people don’t understand forgiveness and redemption.

Hal 9000 gets it.

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I get it. I just wonder if Anakin had lived, would the new Republic would have wanted to put him on trial for his crimes? Is returning to the light enough to get you off the hook? Not guilty by reason of the Dark Side?

Can someone return to the side of good and live with the fact they have a lot of blood on their hands?

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

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We’ll just have to agree to disagree but the growing number of people who think Vader turning into a Force Ghost wasn’t totally earned is something to consider.

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All I want is for Hayden to not appear in episode VIII. For real.

Because then it will have validated the asinine alteration to the very end of ROTJ with the ghosts.

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Maybe if they make him up to look like Sebastian Shaw? 😉

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

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stealthboy said:

All I want is for Hayden to not appear in episode VIII. For real.

Because then it will have validated the asinine alteration to the very end of ROTJ with the ghosts.

THIS.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Stepping softly in a danger zone…

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I don’t wish to get into a long debate, I write the following just because I want to clarify my earlier statement and hopefully eliminate possible confusion.

For the sake of the example, let’s just assume that Anakin survived the end of RotJ for a minute so that this can be more easily applied to Anakin Skywalker or Ben Solo.

I’ve no doubt that either character would, or should be held accountable in a court of law. And they would likely be punished quite harshly. But judicial process and punishment, in this case, is an entirely different and separate thing than the forgiveness or redemption of which I refer (and I thought other posters referred to as well).

Personal forgiveness is all about the person(s) wronged by or in some other way affected by the bad choices made by Anakin or Ben. Personal forgiveness is about an individual coming to terms with the previous bad actions/choices made by Anakin/Ben and choosing to not hold it against them going forward. This forgiveness thus opens the door to things like Luke possibly getting to have a meaningful relationship with his father, or Leia a renewed relationship with her son. It can also allow things like surviving victims the ability to cope and move forward with their lives without the unbearable burden of suffering, resentment, or hate.

Spiritual redemption (which is CLEARLY what Lucas had in mind for Anakin) is all about a change of heart which results in a change in action. Anakin’s killing the emperor was NOT his act of redemption, it was a physical work that was a RESULT of his repentant heart. No amount of good works can “cancel out” the bad things these characters have done. It’s about them forsaking evil and the dark side, and embracing the light. And yes their actions going forward will reflect that change and likely directly oppose the types of actions they took before the change. But the actions themselves are not, and do not create, the redemption. That is a direct result of a change of heart from evil to good.

For all his faults, anakin’s spiritual redemption is one thing George got absolutely right (in spite of pushback it seems) and I would HATE to see that screwed with in the sequels. Anakin’s ghost should not be conflicted because he changed in his heart and turned away from the dark side forever in that moment.

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I wouldn’t put it past Snoke to conjure up a fake Anakin/Vader ghost that says exactly what he wants Ben to hear. (Maybe a specially programmed holocron?) He had to come up with something tangible to sway Ben. I doubt this shrine to the burnt Vader mask thing came exclusively from Ben.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

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canofhumdingers said:

I don’t wish to get into a long debate, I write the following just because I want to clarify my earlier statement and hopefully eliminate possible confusion.

For the sake of the example, let’s just assume that Anakin survived the end of RotJ for a minute so that this can be more easily applied to Anakin Skywalker or Ben Solo.

I’ve no doubt that either character would, or should be held accountable in a court of law. And they would likely be punished quite harshly. But judicial process and punishment, in this case, is an entirely different and separate thing than the forgiveness or redemption of which I refer (and I thought other posters referred to as well).

Personal forgiveness is all about the person(s) wronged by or in some other way affected by the bad choices made by Anakin or Ben. Personal forgiveness is about an individual coming to terms with the previous bad actions/choices made by Anakin/Ben and choosing to not hold it against them going forward. This forgiveness thus opens the door to things like Luke possibly getting to have a meaningful relationship with his father, or Leia a renewed relationship with her son. It can also allow things like surviving victims the ability to cope and move forward with their lives without the unbearable burden of suffering, resentment, or hate.

Spiritual redemption (which is CLEARLY what Lucas had in mind for Anakin) is all about a change of heart which results in a change in action. Anakin’s killing the emperor was NOT his act of redemption, it was a physical work that was a RESULT of his repentant heart. No amount of good works can “cancel out” the bad things these characters have done. It’s about them forsaking evil and the dark side, and embracing the light. And yes their actions going forward will reflect that change and likely directly oppose the types of actions they took before the change. But the actions themselves are not, and do not create, the redemption. That is a direct result of a change of heart from evil to good.

For all his faults, anakin’s spiritual redemption is one thing George got absolutely right (in spite of pushback it seems) and I would HATE to see that screwed with in the sequels. Anakin’s ghost should not be conflicted because he changed in his heart and turned away from the dark side forever in that moment.

QFT

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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canofhumdingers said:
For all his faults, anakin’s spiritual redemption is one thing George got absolutely right (in spite of pushback it seems) and I would HATE to see that screwed with in the sequels. Anakin’s ghost should not be conflicted because he changed in his heart and turned away from the dark side forever in that moment.

Again, if George chose to not include Anakin in the celebration scene he could have conveyed that exact same message but in a more realistic way. Him not showing up doesn’t mean he hasn’t turned away from the Dark Side; it would mean that his past has changed him in a way that requires more than a spark to bring about great change. I feel you though…

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This is one of the areas where the PT messed up. According to the PT, Qui-gon taught Yoda and Obi-wan how to be force ghosts. No one taught Anakin so how did he become a ghost? Luck? Genius? By virtue of being the Chosen One?

I hope they don’t mess with the Force Ghosts except as dispensers of wisdom, like Ben was in the OT.

And I was comparing the maturing Hayden to the younger pictures of Shaw and there is definitely a resemblance.

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This is one of the areas where the PT messed up. According to the PT, Qui-gon taught Yoda and Obi-wan how to be force ghosts. No one taught Anakin so how did he become a ghost? Luck? Genius? By virtue of being the Chosen One?

I hope they don’t mess with the Force Ghosts except as dispensers of wisdom, like Ben was in the OT.

And I was comparing the maturing Hayden to the younger pictures of Shaw and there is definitely a resemblance.

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I guess I always presumed Obi Wan and Yoda helped Anakin to cross over? It’s not clear in the movie when his body disappears, (if that was even intended when the scenes were filmed) but it must be after Luke escapes the Death Star. I can’t imagine him wasting time dragging the empty armor aboard the shuttle when the whole place is about to go kaboom.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

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apparently lucas has said in the commentary that obi wan and yoda taught him during his final moments

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Lord Haseo said:

Interesting revelations not many people talked about:

Daisy Ridley confirmed The Last Jedi will have at least some ‘Grey’ in the film and a part of it will have to do with DJ

More signs pointing to this being Ezra Bridger.

The Jedi are all but extinct.......
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Ugh, keep your kids cartoon out of my Star Wars.

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Hardcore Legend said:

Lord Haseo said:

Interesting revelations not many people talked about:

Daisy Ridley confirmed The Last Jedi will have at least some ‘Grey’ in the film and a part of it will have to do with DJ

More signs pointing to this being Ezra Bridger.

It could be kind of interesting if DJ was Force Sensitive but only used his abilities sparingly and in the most subtle/creative ways due to him not having formal training.

Everyone on that show minus Bendu or Thrawn needs to stay far away fron the ST.