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Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 176

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I saw a good video suggesting Finn should have died at the cannon. Hear me out:
–His character arc for the trilogy is done, even if it should have been improved in TROS, all he does is scream “REY”.
–His main antagonist, Phasma, is done.
–It would give the ending of TLJ a more tragic undertone, losing a major likable character.
–It would give Rose a chance to be part of the “big three” in TROS.

Maul- A Star Wars Story

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OutboundFlight said:

I saw a good video suggesting Finn should have died at the cannon. Hear me out:
–His character arc for the trilogy is done, even if it should have been improved in TROS, all he does is scream “REY”.
–His main antagonist, Phasma, is done.
–It would give the ending of TLJ a more tragic undertone, losing a major likable character.
–It would give Rose a chance to be part of the “big three” in TROS.

That was this video right?

I agree conditionally. Ideally Finn’s character has plenty of potential, it was just squandered.

But regardless, the big question I have after watching the video is this:

Hologram Head

Why does this person have a hologram head? Are they an alien or a robot that just pretends to be humanoid, or are they a human who lost their head and this is a replacement? Furthermore, why isn’t Finn questioning this after the fact? So many questions.

What a grand and intoxicating innocence. How could you be so naive? There is no escape. Come, lay down your weapons. It is not too late for my mercy.
Episode 9 Rewrite THE SHATTERED SWORD (Complete!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V3 Released!) and The Starlight Project (WORKPRINT RELEASED!)

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NeverarGreat said:

OutboundFlight said:

I saw a good video suggesting Finn should have died at the cannon. Hear me out:
–His character arc for the trilogy is done, even if it should have been improved in TROS, all he does is scream “REY”.
–His main antagonist, Phasma, is done.
–It would give the ending of TLJ a more tragic undertone, losing a major likable character.
–It would give Rose a chance to be part of the “big three” in TROS.

That was this video right?

I agree conditionally. Ideally Finn’s character has plenty of potential, it was just squandered.

But regardless, the big question I have after watching the video is this:

Hologram Head

Why does this person have a hologram head? Are they an alien or a robot that just pretends to be humanoid, or are they a human who lost their head and this is a replacement? Furthermore, why isn’t Finn questioning this after the fact? So many questions.

Yep that’s the video. I usually dislike him for his childishness, but when I saw such a long video and him saying TLJ was “alright” I figured he might have changed (seems he did, at least for this one)

Also, you are correct about the Hologram Head. That single moment was when I knew this movie had ruined my flawless childhood. I bet it symbolizes Rian Johnson’s dislike of the true fans!!!

Maul- A Star Wars Story

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My thought is it’s someone in the casino remotely. Sort of like Palpatine’s full size hologram having a walking platform in TPM.

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Yeah, that was my thought exactly. Which is kind of a cool idea.

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DominicCobb said:

My thought is it’s someone in the casino remotely. Sort of like Palpatine’s full size hologram having a walking platform in TPM.

That was my thought as well…or someone who cannot breath or live in the atmosphere…same thing either way. Strange thing to hang your thoughts on the entire movie on imo.

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OutboundFlight said:

NeverarGreat said:

OutboundFlight said:

I saw a good video suggesting Finn should have died at the cannon. Hear me out:
–His character arc for the trilogy is done, even if it should have been improved in TROS, all he does is scream “REY”.
–His main antagonist, Phasma, is done.
–It would give the ending of TLJ a more tragic undertone, losing a major likable character.
–It would give Rose a chance to be part of the “big three” in TROS.

That was this video right?

I agree conditionally. Ideally Finn’s character has plenty of potential, it was just squandered.

But regardless, the big question I have after watching the video is this:

Hologram Head

Why does this person have a hologram head? Are they an alien or a robot that just pretends to be humanoid, or are they a human who lost their head and this is a replacement? Furthermore, why isn’t Finn questioning this after the fact? So many questions.

Yep that’s the video. I usually dislike him for his childishness, but when I saw such a long video and him saying TLJ was “alright” I figured he might have changed (seems he did, at least for this one)

I liked his channel before this video, but I also agree that the video was good. It summed up my basic thoughts on the movie: some parts are really good, some parts are really bad, and the movie as a whole is tonally jarring because of it. That’s why, in my opinion, fan edits of TLJ have really improved the movie.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian,
TFA (Starlight), TLJ (Fallen Knight), TROS (Resurgence).
May the midichlorians be with you.

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Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

My thought is it’s someone in the casino remotely. Sort of like Palpatine’s full size hologram having a walking platform in TPM.

That was my thought as well…or someone who cannot breath or live in the atmosphere…same thing either way. Strange thing to hang your thoughts on the entire movie on imo.

Sarcasm yet again fails to travel through the internet’s tubes.

What a grand and intoxicating innocence. How could you be so naive? There is no escape. Come, lay down your weapons. It is not too late for my mercy.
Episode 9 Rewrite THE SHATTERED SWORD (Complete!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V3 Released!) and The Starlight Project (WORKPRINT RELEASED!)

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NeverarGreat said:

Creox said:

DominicCobb said:

My thought is it’s someone in the casino remotely. Sort of like Palpatine’s full size hologram having a walking platform in TPM.

That was my thought as well…or someone who cannot breath or live in the atmosphere…same thing either way. Strange thing to hang your thoughts on the entire movie on imo.

Sarcasm yet again fails to travel through the internet’s tubes.

I should’ve picked it up after Outbound’s comment. 😂

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Oh I knew he was being sarcastic. Still an interesting thing to talk about though, I encourage all discussions about random background characters, that’s the only thing at this point that hasn’t been argued to death.

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I could be a holo-rent-a-body. Some sort of service for those with money to gamble but who can’t make it in person. I personally loved that section because it was a new slice of the Star Wars galaxy. One we hadn’t seen and one that should be there - they have to have the monied class as well. We’ve seen the smugglers, the gangsters, the moisture farmers, the princesses, the elected officials, and the military, why not the rich. I found it delightfully appropriate that they find the guy they are looking for only to get thrown in jail and make do with someone else. It almost paid off. He didn’t turn on them until they got captured. But that slice of monied elegance really tied to the opera in ROTS. I also backs up the arms dealing that is supposedly how the Exogol fleet was constructed in TROS.

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This video nails how I feel about TLJ now:

Revisiting the Last Jedi (and why it is alright)

https://youtu.be/qlOnKW_gFLE

Like me the guy disliked the film, but has kind of come around to liking many elements of it, and feels there’s a great film at its core. The guy goes through what he feels are the strong, and weaker elements of the film in a pretty balanced manner.

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DrDre said:

This video nails how I feel about TLJ now:

Revisiting the Last Jedi (and why it is alright)

https://youtu.be/qlOnKW_gFLE

Like me the guy disliked the film, but has kind of come around to liking many elements of it, and feels there’s a great film at its core. The guy goes through what he feels are the strong, and weaker elements of the film in a pretty balanced manner.

I will never be convinced that TLJ is a good film, when it has terrible writing. The main arc makes no sense, its sub plots are redundant and devoid of character development. Every character in the move ends exactly where they left of in TFA.

This not to mention Prequel levels of cheese, like Rose’s forced romance, BB8 fighting people and driving a Walker, Holdos Disney approach to leadership - “if you only believe it when you see it, you will never make it through the night”.

The movie had potential, to take the force knowledge in a new direction… “the light, the dark… but there is so much more”. This was said by Luke in the trailer, and never realised in the movie. Despite Lukes initial attempts to shake things up (and he was 100% correct) the movie proves him wrong and claims Rey as the last Jedi. Why? After the first half of the movie trying to convince me the Jedi as a religion should end, why is she now one of them? Why not become an outcast, a Grey force user? Like Luke was in the legends. Someone who controls both light and dark…

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I love Luke in TLJ. In contrast to Rey Mary Sue (and I think TROS made it clear this is a valid perception of her), I really relish failure Luke. I had said prior to the ST that my favorite thing about Luke as a hero is that he is not a badass. He struggles, whines, etc, and is very relatable for it.

As much as I enjoyed Han in TFA, it felt like a theme park version. Like “hey it’s HAN SOLO, look at him go.” I’m glad RJ was the one to handle Luke, and that we were given something beyond the surface level of what we thought we wanted.

Initiating self-destruct countdown…

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I think now that the trilogy has come to a close the reflection can finally begin, so now in contrast to the whole of what we have and not what might have been even for those like myself who dislike TLJ as a whole, it might have been the best we got, but then for me to say it’s the best is sort of a half truth that reminds me of the prequels.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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Wanderer_ said:

DrDre said:

This video nails how I feel about TLJ now:

Revisiting the Last Jedi (and why it is alright)

https://youtu.be/qlOnKW_gFLE

Like me the guy disliked the film, but has kind of come around to liking many elements of it, and feels there’s a great film at its core. The guy goes through what he feels are the strong, and weaker elements of the film in a pretty balanced manner.

I will never be convinced that TLJ is a good film, when it has terrible writing. The main arc makes no sense, its sub plots are redundant and devoid of character development. Every character in the move ends exactly where they left of in TFA.

That’s okay and a reasonable opinion - though coming from someone who posted…

“In fact i would say TLJ fans are the ones who just use racism and sexism as a card against people who have genuine criticism of the movie. Its quite toxic really, and sad that Rian Johnson fans dont have any issues in thrashing people and the franchise to protect the vision of one dude.”

I’ll take your opinion with a pinch of salt - especially when you ‘got pulled up for it’ and then posted…

“Im sorry to hear there was indeed a lot of hate and racism thrown into the mix…”

So yes, you throw racism into the mix yourself, then claim ‘sorry to hear that’ when it occurs…
 

Then get into a strop some people don’t want to watch a 2-hour video by MauLer titled ‘An Ubridled Rage’, with self-descriptions of it as a ‘video ranting about a crappy movie’ - or ‘Disney’s failure is now complete’.

A quick look through your posts indicates you are just here to bash on the Sequels - not much else on Star Wars or any love or enjoyment of it so far.

Fair enough - keep on bashing on them, and casually throwing claims of racism around too, but don’t expect many to engage with you if this is all you’re going to post on here (well, apart from the others that also like to bash on them too 😉)

50 Cent is just an imposter

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What’s so wrong about saying you don’t like the sequels? Wanderer seems like a very respectful person, he doesn’t say anything toxic, and he doesn’t say anyone is wrong for having a different opinion than him. It seems like you just think he’s toxic because he doesn’t like the sequels, and because he shared a video that you didn’t even bother to watch, you just assumed it was a toxic rant when it really wasn’t. And also, if you don’t think that some TLJ defenders accuse TLJ haters of racism and sexism, you clearly haven’t been on Twitter.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian,
TFA (Starlight), TLJ (Fallen Knight), TROS (Resurgence).
May the midichlorians be with you.

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StarkillerAG said:

What’s so wrong about saying you don’t like the sequels?

Nothing at all, as I said - “That’s okay and a reasonable opinion” - to not like the Sequels, or parts or aspects of them (or an other Star Wars releases). Why claim this when it was obvious this was not what was meant.

Wanderer seems like a very respectful person, he doesn’t say anything toxic, and he doesn’t say anyone is wrong for having a different opinion than him.

As above, “In fact i would say TLJ fans are the ones who just use racism and sexism as a card against people who have genuine criticism of the movie. Its quite toxic really…”

So TLJ fans are toxic for apparently bringing up race and sexism - but not when he does? Okay.

It seems like you just think he’s toxic because he doesn’t like the sequels,

As above - no.

And it seems you an he are the ones who like to use the word ‘toxic’ here.

and because he shared a video that you didn’t even bother to watch, you just assumed it was a toxic rant when it really wasn’t.

What are you on about? I have seen the video. Are you confusing me with someone else?

And also, if you don’t think that some TLJ defenders accuse TLJ haters of racism and sexism, you clearly haven’t been on Twitter.

No, I’m not on twitter. I am on here, though.

That doesn’t excuse someone stating it is toxic to bring racism and sexism into the debate - despite having done so themselves (like Wanderer has done).

If you have a problem with my post above pointing that out then that is your problem (why so touchy about it?) - along with your misconceptions and erroneous claims.
 

Another thing, as oojason and others have said on here recently, it is not a question of ‘haters’ or ‘defenders’ when it comes to discussing new Star Wars content - or sides in a debate - it is indeed just opinions.

Those who look to create and maintain ‘sides’ can get swept up in their entrenched views, a ‘hate’, a will to ‘win’ - and may stop listening to other viewpoints. Or often with mistaken assumptions or conclusions, and not give appropiate thought to what has actually been posted before them… before jumping in digging the hole deeper themselves.

50 Cent is just an imposter

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I guess I understand your point of view. Wanderer doesn’t seem toxic to me, he just seems annoyed that certain people (who luckily aren’t on here) claim that TLJ is objectively good, and if you don’t like it then you must be a toxic manbaby. I do agree that everyone is entitled to their own opinion though.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian,
TFA (Starlight), TLJ (Fallen Knight), TROS (Resurgence).
May the midichlorians be with you.

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I don’t necessarily agree with the interpretation presented in the video, although I appreciate his switch of mind, because I think that TLJ is an exceptionally well crafted movie.
I think he mistakes the themes of the movie. TLJ is about moving on, but it should not be confused with abandoning the past. The ideologies which clash are always opposite perceptions of the case at hand: “bring back the Jedi”, “let the past die”; “fight for a cause”, “don’t join”; “act, distrust”, “react, trust”. And in the end the movie resolves every suspense between them: “The greatest teacher failure is”; “saving what we love”; “ignite the spark”.
I think he is loosing out on some more layers of meaning, but I agree that without these the movie is just alright.

Threadslayer

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I don’t care if anyone likes a given film or not. That is a personal opinion that everyone has a right to. But some people give such odd reasons behind their hates and dislikes. Some give reasons that are so easy to dismantle. Such as taking Kylo’s “let the past die” and Luke’s “the Jedi must end” lines at face value without examining how the movie plays out and changes Luke’s opinion to “I will not be the Last Jedi”. Frankly, what a Sith/dark side user says in a Star Wars film is pretty certain to be the opposite of the real message and Luke was in a bad place when he said that. He had some reason and I think the lineage of the Old Republic Jedi needed to end, but Rey takes the texts and can restart the Jedi as they were originally, before the Sith rose (that is an EU bit that has not officially gotten back into the story but…). Yoda adds to it when he says something to the effect that students grow beyond their masters. So taking anything that Kylo or curmudgeon Luke says as the message of the film is just wrong. If you base hating the film on that then you have based it on a false fact.

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I saw someone online complaining about DJ’s line “You blow them up today, they blow you up tomorrow” line, saying it was a “terrible message.” This is obviously ignoring the fact that literally the next line in the movie is a hero saying “You’re wrong.” But of course if they acknowledged that there wouldn’t be anything to whine about.

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Yeah, obviously the villains of the movie shouldn’t be taken at their word. I think most people by now know that “let the past die” isn’t the message of TLJ. But I do have somewhat of a problem with the ultimate message of the movie, which is basically “both sides are wrong, the real answer is always in the middle.” It doesn’t seem like a good lesson, especially for a franchise all about how the light always wins in the end. It also leads to some really confusing themes, like sacrificing yourself being completely good and justified when Paige and Holdo do it, but when Finn does it suddenly it’s wrong and you need to “save the things you love,” despite that being the whole reason why Finn tried to sacrifice himself in the first place. I understand what Rian was trying to accomplish with this movie, I just don’t think he conveyed his message very well.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian,
TFA (Starlight), TLJ (Fallen Knight), TROS (Resurgence).
May the midichlorians be with you.

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StarkillerAG said:

But I do have somewhat of a problem with the ultimate message of the movie, which is basically “both sides are wrong, the real answer is always in the middle.”

That’s not the message at all.

DominicCobb said:

I saw someone online complaining about DJ’s line “You blow them up today, they blow you up tomorrow” line, saying it was a “terrible message.” This is obviously ignoring the fact that literally the next line in the movie is a hero saying “You’re wrong.” But of course if they acknowledged that there wouldn’t be anything to whine about.

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I know DJ was wrong too, but the movie explicitly tries to make a compromise between DJ’s beliefs and the beliefs of the Resistance, resulting in the whole “save the things you love” scene, which was one of the worst scenes of the movie in my opinion. Throughout the movie, it felt like Rian was trying to make it seem like the heroes and villains should find a compromise, which doesn’t seem like a good lesson for a franchise all about the light always winning.

My preferred saga experience:
TPM/AOTC/ROTS (Hal 9000), ANH/ESB/ROTJ (Despecialized), The Mandalorian,
TFA (Starlight), TLJ (Fallen Knight), TROS (Resurgence).
May the midichlorians be with you.