Sign In

Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 171

Author
Time

screams in the void said:

this sums up my thoughts on the film and the fan base very well. To the creator of this video, I say Kudos and drop the mic dude ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2cBTLsWiDg&fbclid=IwAR1lUEbfBOn5Yr2VPJSfqaLPzlQf5WDqjUQEZEfG46_WMcctzcbjJqODgoI

Too much nerd-splaining. He uses the same lore-based logic to explain why TLJ is good as its detractors use to explain why it’s bad. If you have to strain this hard to explain why a fictional work is actually genius, then either you’re desperately trying to convince yourself that you like it or the arguments you’re trying to refute probably aren’t worth refuting. Star Wars is so much more basic than that. These films suffer from so much over-analysis and in the end few of the arguments actually have any bearing on whether the movie is good or bad.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

act on instinct said:

Sure if you are empathetic to Rian Johnson’s vision (this is if you don’t already like the movie) and look through his lens you can see where it was coming from, but I hardly see people do the same for Zack Snyder when he attempts his own interpretation on legacy characters that have already been rebooted.

Zack Snyder and Rian Johnson aren’t very comparable as filmmakers or storytellers, though. But even if the comparison is made, I don’t find a lot of examples of people who criticize Snyder’s take on superheroes without taking his POV into consideration. Speaking for myself (which is really the only thing I CAN do) it’s not that his POV isn’t being considered - I see what he’s trying to do, and I understand why he’s trying to do it. I just think he’s not doing a very good job of communicating it. Essentially, with Snyder, the choice isn’t supported, elaborated upon, or really built upon - the choice more or less IS the entirety of what he’s doing. It’s a POV that is entirely about itself. It’s a choice whose whole aim is to say THIS IS THE CHOICE I MADE and then there’s no real attempt to make something more of it than that.

I understand people not liking the decisions Johnson made regarding storytelling and Star Wars, but I don’t know that people can argue he didn’t try to go somewhere and say something with them. Most of the complaints (the good faith ones, the thoughtful ones, at least) acknowledge they don’t like where he started from, and thus where he ended up wasn’t satisfying to them, but they at least acknowledge the start and the end were different points. With Snyder’s take on superheroism, there’s no real journey anywhere. It’s just sort of a very loud, posed, rigid stance that doesn’t lead to any further understanding or thematic depth beyond its own superficial opening statement, because all it’s really trying to do is justify itself.

I liked the Last Jedi video everyone’s talking about, not just because it’s self-deprecating in general (I’m a sucker for that sort of disarming leveling of the playing field) but it tends to get at the two major factors that I think prolong this argument/fight/discussion/anger surrounding the film: The idea that rules were broken, and the idea that voices aren’t being heard. Much of the conversation about the Last Jedi isn’t even really about the movie itself, but about the people “discussing” it, and the grievances they hold at any insinuation their POV isn’t being carefully considered, or flat out ignored. The Last Jedi has become not much more than a grievance mill, and personal grievances are what much of the discussion is about. Any video that acknowledges those conversational practices in an effort to steer discussion back towards the movie itself, and what the movie is actually trying to say about people, is worth watching, whether the person who made it absolutely loves the movie or not.

Author
Time

pleasehello said:

screams in the void said:

this sums up my thoughts on the film and the fan base very well. To the creator of this video, I say Kudos and drop the mic dude ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2cBTLsWiDg&fbclid=IwAR1lUEbfBOn5Yr2VPJSfqaLPzlQf5WDqjUQEZEfG46_WMcctzcbjJqODgoI

Too much nerd-splaining. He uses the same lore-based logic to explain why TLJ is good as its detractors use to explain why it’s bad. If you have to strain this hard to explain why a fictional work is actually genius, then either you’re desperately trying to convince yourself that you like it or the arguments you’re trying to refute probably aren’t worth refuting. Star Wars is so much more basic than that. These films suffer from so much over-analysis and in the end few of the arguments actually have any bearing on whether the movie is good or bad.

Quoted for truth.

The only intellectualizing done for the OT was for the purpose of trying to understand what made it so good; not to argue that it was good or not good.

No amount of nerdsplaining about the ST’s continuity or the reasons why Rey is who she is and blah blah blah will ever make someone who doesn’t like the film enjoy it any more. That cuts both ways.

In truth I’ve seen far more nerdsplaining from the fans who like the films. Those who hated the ST don’t seem to nerdsplain so much as they try to identify the underlying motivations that resulted in a crap product. The two sides argue past each other. One side of the fan base call out the people responsible for the movie. The other side of the fan base seem more inlcined to call out other fans.

Author
Time

I think both sides of the divide really overthink it. Fans tend to overanalyze the film to the point where, on the extreme ends, they think it is either the worst movie ever made or the best movie of the decade. I think the people who get it the best are, ironically, your average moviegoer who doesn’t participate in Star Wars forums, subreddits, or YouTube communities. They don’t overthink it. Rey is strong in the Force because she believes in herself. They don’t argue over Force lore or logic because they get what it is in a general sense and that is enough for them.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Broom Kid you sort of prove my point when you dismiss one filmmaker over another, just swap the names.

Broom Kid said:
I see what he’s trying to do, and I understand why he’s trying to do it. I just think he’s not doing a very good job of communicating it.

this basically sums up my TLJ feelings, and why I made the comparison to begin with, both are using characters that have die hard fans who say the filmmaker broke the “rules” i.e. Batman doesn’t kill/Superman wouldn’t do this, and so on. But depending on which camp you’re in, one is heresy and the other is just fans mad they didn’t get what they wanted.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

Author
Time

act on instinct said:

Broom Kid you sort of prove my point when you dismiss one filmmaker over another, just swap the names.

Broom Kid said:
I see what he’s trying to do, and I understand why he’s trying to do it. I just think he’s not doing a very good job of communicating it.

this basically sums up my TLJ feelings, and why I made the comparison to begin with, both are using characters that have die hard fans who say the filmmaker broke the “rules” i.e. Batman doesn’t kill/Superman wouldn’t do this, and so on. But depending on which camp you’re in, one is heresy and the other is just fans mad they didn’t get what they wanted.

This doesn’t really make any sense. I’m not dismissing him, I’m assessing him. My assessment is that as a storyteller and a filmmaker, he’s ultimately very thin and surface, and he doesn’t have much more to offer as a filmmaker than anything he’s done beyond that surface decision. If my assessment is a dismissal, and dismissal is bad, why are you then directly comparing it to what you’re also doing? Either dismissal is bad, and neither you and I should be doing it, or you only consider it “dismissal” when you disagree with the assessment.

“Depending on which camp you’re in” gets to the other point I was making, which is that a lot of this discussion is about the discussion itself, and the grievance to be found once you spend enough time in there. What you’re finding fault with right now isn’t so much that I might disagree with you, or that others don’t share your opinion, it’s that you think it’s unfair that you’re being judged to be in “the wrong camp” because of that disagreement. At that point, nobody’s talking about the movie anymore at all. They’re talking about themselves, and their grievance at being misunderstood and “dismissed” (there’s that word again).

I don’t really understand why it matters what “camp” you’re in at all. It doesn’t actually affect you, and anyone who IS willing to cut you off and/or dismiss you based on nothing more than their perception of your camp and not your actual ideas that you’ve supported with your own thoughts is someone who has shown themselves to be not worth the concern anyway.

As an aside: Simply having the intent to do something isn’t enough, when it comes to storytelling. The execution counts so much more than the intent does. With your Snyder example, his intentions are made very, very clear, and there’s no real mistaking them once you see them. The problem I’ve had with basically everything he’s done since “300” is that his execution never improves, and in many cases has gotten worse over time.

If a movie is to be judged based on how well it’s trying to do what it wants to do, I find his films lacking not because he wants to do something I wouldn’t do, but because he ultimately doesn’t do it well enough to take me on his journey with him. He CAN do this, and he’s done it before (Both “Dawn of the Dead” and “300” are really good examples, and to a lesser extent, so is “Sucker Punch.”) but he doesn’t do it very consistently, and when he messes up, it’s very noticeable.

That, however, isn’t a judgment of you, or your character, or your person. It just means I don’t like the guy’s movies as much as you do. That doesn’t put you in a camp, nor does it invalidate your opinions.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Broom Kid said:
With Snyder’s take on superheroism, there’s no real journey anywhere. It’s just sort of a very loud, posed, rigid stance that doesn’t lead to any further understanding or thematic depth beyond its own superficial opening statement, because all it’s really trying to do is justify itself.

This was where I found the dismissal, or at least the double standard, my point about camps though is not directed specifically towards you, more the perception of when it is okay to trash a movie for not being what you wanted from the property and when it is fanboys who are using material outside the film to justify their taste preferences as objective. And that’s not what I’m also doing when I said you can see where Rian was coming from, I don’t even see how you disagree with me as much as you do I feel like we’re mostly on the same page.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

Author
Time

RogueLeader said:

I think both sides of the divide really overthink it. Fans tend to overanalyze the film to the point where, on the extreme ends, they think it is either the worst movie ever made or the best movie of the decade. I think the people who get it the best are, ironically, your average moviegoer who doesn’t participate in Star Wars forums, subreddits, or YouTube communities. They don’t overthink it. Rey is strong in the Force because she believes in herself. They don’t argue over Force lore or logic because they get what it is in a general sense and that is enough for them.

True. Sometimes you watch and think about a movie so much that it begins to disintegrate into a collection of datapoints, of nebulous themes and a stream of scenes bereft of purpose, much like looking at a house as no more than a a pile of nails, 2x4’s and drywall. You risk losing the point of it all. Not that this has happened to me of course, I’m above such things 😉

What a grand and intoxicating innocence. How could you be so naive? There is no escape. Come, lay down your weapons. It is not too late for my mercy.
Episode 9 Rewrite THE SHATTERED SWORD (Complete!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V3 Released!) and The Starlight Project (WORKPRINT RELEASED!)

Author
Time

Just popping in here real quick to say that I just watched this again, and it still rules, and I could not possibly care less about anyone else’s reasons for thinking otherwise.

Author
Time

So KK recently announced that the trilogy format for Star Wars movies will end with TROS. Doesn’t necessarily mean Rian is never going to make another SW movie but that’s a pretty solid torpedo to that SW trilogy of his that used to be such a sure thing…

Good, IMHO he should never touch Star Wars again after TLJ. Saying that, I enjoyed Looper and Knives Out genuinely sounds like a good movie but I just think he has no business with Star Wars and never should have had to begin with in retrospect after what he decided to do with it and the way he handled fan criticism afterwards.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Rian Johnson on ‘Knives Out,’ ‘Star Wars’ and Toxic Fandom’:-

https://variety.com/2019/film/spotlight/rian-johnson-knives-out-star-wars-last-jedi-1203410899
 

Seems his Star Wars project is still a go.

Given Kathleen Kennedy’s recent comments on future Star Wars content not having to adhere to a trilogy format:-

“I think it gives us a more open-ended view of storytelling and doesn’t lock us into this three-act structure,” she said. “We’re not going to have some finite number and fit it into a box. We’re really going to let the story dictate that.”

Maybe we’ll get two films instead - or maybe four 😉

 

Bar calling out the toxic fans - the racists, sexists, homophobes, trolls, death threat makers and announcers, and bullies who chase people involved in films they don’t like off the internet etc… I haven’t seen quotes from Rian Johnson chastising genuine criticism of The Last Jedi - I’ve only seen quotes from him stating he was perfectly fine with fans expressing genuine criticism of the film.

Perhaps someone can provide quotes from him to the contrary? (I am somewhat surprised nobody has done so previously.)
 

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? 
Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
 
Welcome | About | Help | How do I do this on the OT.com? | Announcements | General Assistance |
Site Timeline | Forum Rules | Fan Edit & Preservation Rules + FAQs | Signature Rules | MySpleen Info

Author
Time

oojason said:

Bar calling out the toxic fans - the racists, sexists, homophobes, trolls, death threat makers and announcers, and bullies who chase people involved in films they don’t like off the internet etc… I haven’t seen quotes from Rian Johnson chastising genuine criticism of The Last Jedi - I’ve only seen quotes from him stating he was perfectly fine with fans expressing genuine criticism of the film.

Perhaps someone can provide quotes from him to the contrary? (I am somewhat surprised nobody has done so previously.)
 

I don’t think anyone has posted them because such quotes don’t exist. To me it is a myth, spread by people looking to continue the hate on the TLJ film or the man who made it.

Personally I find such claims to be actually toxic, as they are without foundation or fact. Both a lie and smear. Rinsed and repeated.

I like TLJ overall, yet the film still has several big issues for me, but I’m not going to lie and make up shit about it or about the people who worked on it, and I don’t understand people who do.

If Rian Johnson called out a bunch of people fitting the descriptions you posted then good on him. I wish more would.

Tighten Up and then turn it all the way up to 11!

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Biggs Audio Dynamite said:

oojason said:

Bar calling out the toxic fans - the racists, sexists, homophobes, trolls, death threat makers and announcers, and bullies who chase people involved in films they don’t like off the internet etc… I haven’t seen quotes from Rian Johnson chastising genuine criticism of The Last Jedi - I’ve only seen quotes from him stating he was perfectly fine with fans expressing genuine criticism of the film.

Perhaps someone can provide quotes from him to the contrary? (I am somewhat surprised nobody has done so previously.)
 

I don’t think anyone has posted them because such quotes don’t exist. To me it is a myth, spread by people looking to continue the hate on the TLJ film or the man who made it.

Personally I find such claims to be actually toxic, as they are without foundation or fact. Both a lie and smear. Rinsed and repeated.

I like TLJ overall, yet the film still has several big issues for me, but I’m not going to lie and make up shit about it or about the people who worked on it, and I don’t understand people who do.

If Rian Johnson called out a bunch of people fitting the descriptions you posted then good on him. I wish more would.

Im not a fan of TLJ, and i can find tons of videos and articles discussing it in a unbiased, unprejudiced way. In fact i would say TLJ fans are the ones who just use racism and sexism as a card against people who have genuine criticism of the movie. Its quite toxic really, and sad that Rian Johnson fans dont have any issues in thrashing people and the franchise to protect the vision of one dude.
People didnt like Rose because she was a waste, not because she was a female. People want Rey to show weakness because thats what a hero should do, not because shes a female. People hated on Finns arc because it was a waste and pointless, not cause he’s black. People hated on Holdo because she was an incompetent leader, not because she was a female. People dont like Poes arc because the movie makes him look incompetent just to prove a point and serve Holdos motivations, not because he is a man. People hated Lukes arc because he already had his evolution as a character in the OT, now his job was to pass on the torch, not to go back to the drawing board.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Wanderer_ said:

Biggs Audio Dynamite said:

oojason said:

Bar calling out the toxic fans - the racists, sexists, homophobes, trolls, death threat makers and announcers, and bullies who chase people involved in films they don’t like off the internet etc… I haven’t seen quotes from Rian Johnson chastising genuine criticism of The Last Jedi - I’ve only seen quotes from him stating he was perfectly fine with fans expressing genuine criticism of the film.

Perhaps someone can provide quotes from him to the contrary? (I am somewhat surprised nobody has done so previously.)
 

I don’t think anyone has posted them because such quotes don’t exist. To me it is a myth, spread by people looking to continue the hate on the TLJ film or the man who made it.

Personally I find such claims to be actually toxic, as they are without foundation or fact. Both a lie and smear. Rinsed and repeated.

I like TLJ overall, yet the film still has several big issues for me, but I’m not going to lie and make up shit about it or about the people who worked on it, and I don’t understand people who do.

If Rian Johnson called out a bunch of people fitting the descriptions you posted then good on him. I wish more would.

Im not a fan of TLJ, and i can find tons of videos and articles discussing it in a unbiased, unprejudiced way. In fact i would say TLJ fans are the ones who just use racism and sexism as a card against people who have genuine criticism of the movie. Its quite toxic really, and sad that Rian Johnson fans dont have any issues in thrashing people and the franchise to protect the vision of one dude.
People didnt like Rose because she was a waste, not because she was a female. People want Rey to show weakness because thats what a hero should do, not because shes a female. People hated on Finns arc because it was a waste and pointless, not cause he’s black. People hated on Holdo because she was an incompetent leader, not because she was a female. People dont like Poes arc because the movie makes him look incompetent just to prove a point and serve Holdos motivations, not because he is a man. People hated Lukes arc because he already had his evolution as a character in the OT, now his job was to pass on the torch, not to go back to the drawing board.

Unfortunately, even on this site it was an issue for some that Rose was ‘Asian’, or ‘fat’, or a woman - or other derogatory comments on her appearance or gender, that Finn was black (or a black stormtrooper), that Rey was indeed a female, that Holdo had purple hair - or was ‘Leia’s lesbian friend’, etc, etc.

As a mod here - we deleted some before many saw it - sometimes we were a little late on, some if it can still found be here. Speaking to other mods on other sites (and not just Star Wars sites)… they encountered the same - or similar.

It’s probably worth reading through a few of the relevant threads on here to see for yourself. Many people had genuine criticism of the film too - and didn’t look to critique the film in such as some people did mentioned below. And also many liked it - or had mixed opinions on it… and many have debated or just simply chatted away about it in a civil manner. (and yes, sometimes it can get a little heated.)

Rian Johnson wasn’t calling out people who had genuine issues or opinions on the film - he was calling out the sexists, racists, homophobes etc - as well as the more toxic people who chased people who had worked on the film from internet.

I don’t think he simply has his own fans defending him or TLJ fans on this issue - it seems to be more a case of just decent people who won’t tolerate sexists, racists, homophobes etc - and those toxic people mentioned above.
 

I believe Biggs was referring more to the fact Rian Johnson has not actually attacked fans for having a genuine opinion - ‘I don’t think anyone has posted them because such quotes don’t exist.’.

If you know different - and can post Rian Johnson’s quotes here where he does attack the fans for having genuine criticisms of the film - I am sure many will be interested to see them…
 

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here? 
Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
 
Welcome | About | Help | How do I do this on the OT.com? | Announcements | General Assistance |
Site Timeline | Forum Rules | Fan Edit & Preservation Rules + FAQs | Signature Rules | MySpleen Info

Author
Time
 (Edited)

I have stayed off forums for a long time, i dont use twitter and evidently im new to this board so i may have spared myself of the drama. Im sorry to hear there was indeed a lot of hate and racism thrown into the mix… It makes honest discussions very difficult.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

I need to rewatch this one, but I’m beginning to feel this is the best of the sequel trilogy. I have issues with the film, but I don’t hate it.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Cthulhunicron said:

I need to rewatch this one, but I’m beginning to feel this is the best of the sequel trilogy. I have issues with the film, but I don’t hate it.

To me, I feel like I have the same opinion. The Force Awakens destroyed every single accomplishment in Return of the Jedi, copied the original 1977 movie, and undid Han Solo’s character growth. The Rise of Skywalker not only destroys the meaning of Anakin’s redemption and sacrifice, but also undermines this entire franchise.

The Last Jedi is awful, yes, but at least it tried to continue the story that was told in The Force Awakens, albeit badly. Thus, I consider The Force Awakens and The Rise of Skywalker to be worse movies than The Last Jedi.

The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequel and Disney trilogies is that they will always be around. Forever. They will never go away. It can never be undone.

I also prefer to be referred to as “TNT”, not “Freezing”.

Author
Time

FreezingTNT2 said:

Cthulhunicron said:

I need to rewatch this one, but I’m beginning to feel this is the best of the sequel trilogy. I have issues with the film, but I don’t hate it.

To me, I feel like I have the same opinion. The Force Awakens destroyed every single accomplishment in Return of the Jedi, copied the original 1977 movie, and undid Han Solo’s character growth. The Rise of Skywalker not only destroys the meaning of Anakin’s redemption and sacrifice, but also undermines this entire franchise.

The Last Jedi is awful, yes, but at least it tried to continue the story that was told in The Force Awakens, albeit badly. Thus, I consider The Force Awakens and The Rise of Skywalker to be worse movies than The Last Jedi.

TLJ destroys Luke. So i guess they all work together against the OT characters. And for the record I never felt TFA destroyed Hans Solo, he was pretty much the Hans we knew and loved from the originals. He was a scoundrel, not really boyfriend material… And neither was Leia.

Author
Time

Wanderer_ said:

FreezingTNT2 said:

Cthulhunicron said:

I need to rewatch this one, but I’m beginning to feel this is the best of the sequel trilogy. I have issues with the film, but I don’t hate it.

To me, I feel like I have the same opinion. The Force Awakens destroyed every single accomplishment in Return of the Jedi, copied the original 1977 movie, and undid Han Solo’s character growth. The Rise of Skywalker not only destroys the meaning of Anakin’s redemption and sacrifice, but also undermines this entire franchise.

The Last Jedi is awful, yes, but at least it tried to continue the story that was told in The Force Awakens, albeit badly. Thus, I consider The Force Awakens and The Rise of Skywalker to be worse movies than The Last Jedi.

TLJ destroys Luke. So i guess they all work together against the OT characters. And for the record I never felt TFA destroyed Hans Solo, he was pretty much the Hans we knew and loved from the originals. He was a scoundrel, not really boyfriend material… And neither was Leia.

I’ve never understood this perspective that TLJ destroys Luke. He makes a mistake, overcomes it, and has a heroic death. He’s humanized, and still gets to be badass at the end.

Author
Time

I just want to say I used to absolutely hate The Lad Jedi, but now it’s one of my favorite Star Wars films. It definitely my favorite in the Sequel Trilogy.

I have some gripes about the comedy and the tone, but at least Johnson was doing something different and fun!

Author
Time

Cthulhunicron said:

Wanderer_ said:

FreezingTNT2 said:

Cthulhunicron said:

I need to rewatch this one, but I’m beginning to feel this is the best of the sequel trilogy. I have issues with the film, but I don’t hate it.

To me, I feel like I have the same opinion. The Force Awakens destroyed every single accomplishment in Return of the Jedi, copied the original 1977 movie, and undid Han Solo’s character growth. The Rise of Skywalker not only destroys the meaning of Anakin’s redemption and sacrifice, but also undermines this entire franchise.

The Last Jedi is awful, yes, but at least it tried to continue the story that was told in The Force Awakens, albeit badly. Thus, I consider The Force Awakens and The Rise of Skywalker to be worse movies than The Last Jedi.

TLJ destroys Luke. So i guess they all work together against the OT characters. And for the record I never felt TFA destroyed Hans Solo, he was pretty much the Hans we knew and loved from the originals. He was a scoundrel, not really boyfriend material… And neither was Leia.

I’ve never understood this perspective that TLJ destroys Luke. He makes a mistake, overcomes it, and has a heroic death. He’s humanized, and still gets to be badass at the end.

I agree. And with real characterisation being so rare for anyone in the ST it’s looking better all the time.

Yub Nub for life

Author
Time

Tammer5 said:

I just want to say I used to absolutely hate The Lad Jedi, but now it’s one of my favorite Star Wars films. It definitely my favorite in the Sequel Trilogy.

I have some gripes about the comedy and the tone, but at least Johnson was doing something different and fun!

Yeah, I’d say my biggest issue with the film is the humor.

Author
Time

I think a huge problem is that the characters do stupid things that realistically they wouldn’t do. Particularly in the Canto Bight arc.

“Yup, them’s the shuttle parkers.” Seriously? The heroes are on a top-secret covert mission where remaining under cover is absolutely critical, and the first thing they do is ignore the instructions of the casino valet and rush off, leaving a cloud of suspicion? Are these our heroes or incompetent bunglers?

“Did you find the codebreaker?” “We found a codebreaker!” Because they’re all interchangeable, and it doesn’t matter if the heroes specifically failed to get the one guy Maz Kanata told them to, right? It’s not like the survival of the Resistance depends on it or anything.

Obviously this ties into the humor issue. I’d say a major flaw in the film is how with Poe, Finn & Rose it frequently goes for humor over characterization, to the point of undermining the entire idea that these characters are military operatives on what they think is a vitally important secret mission.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”