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Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 169

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DrDre said:

Funny, reading some of the comics, and having some debates here have helped me accept what is, and let go of what might have been. I watched TLJ the other day, and I actually enjoyed it for the most part.

Very cool.

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RogueLeader said:

Hey man! Happy to hear you enjoyed it some more in your most recent viewing! Hope your day is going well.

Do you think you just enjoyed it more in a general sense, or were there specific things that you noticed you kinda liked this time around?

I found I really enjoyed the Luke/Rey/Kylo/Snoke dynamic this time round.

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DrDre said:

RogueLeader said:

Hey man! Happy to hear you enjoyed it some more in your most recent viewing! Hope your day is going well.

Do you think you just enjoyed it more in a general sense, or were there specific things that you noticed you kinda liked this time around?

I found I really enjoyed the Luke/Rey/Kylo/Snoke dynamic this time round.

That’s easily the most interesting part of the movie.

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There’s a problem I don’t see anyone talk about: ever notice how almost anytime the movie needs to suddenly go somewhere else, a character is stunned unconscious? Poe, Finn (twice), Kylo, Leia, and Rose are all knocked out so the scene can move to another location across the galaxy. It’s almost like the writers don’t know how to end a scene, so they just knocks out a character to take a nap. It’s like watching The Room: the reason every scene ends with “Oh, I’ve gotta go” and cuts to a location shot is because Tommy Wiseau is lazy and has no idea how to switch from scene to scene.

The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequel and Disney trilogies is that they will always be around. Forever. They will never go away. It can never be undone.

I also prefer to be referred to as “TNT”, not “Freezing”.

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FreezingTNT2 said:

There’s a problem I don’t see anyone talk about: ever notice how almost anytime the movie needs to suddenly go somewhere else, a character is stunned unconscious? Poe, Finn (twice), Kylo, Leia, and Rose are all knocked out so the scene can move to another location across the galaxy. It’s almost like the writers don’t know how to end a scene, so they just knocks out a character to take a nap. It’s like watching The Room: the reason every scene ends with “Oh, I’ve gotta go” and cuts to a location shot is because Tommy Wiseau is lazy and has no idea how to switch from scene to scene.

I think if you actually examine the instances where those characters are knocked out you’ll notice your thesis isn’t really accurate in anyway.

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DominicCobb said:

FreezingTNT2 said:

There’s a problem I don’t see anyone talk about: ever notice how almost anytime the movie needs to suddenly go somewhere else, a character is stunned unconscious? Poe, Finn (twice), Kylo, Leia, and Rose are all knocked out so the scene can move to another location across the galaxy. It’s almost like the writers don’t know how to end a scene, so they just knocks out a character to take a nap. It’s like watching The Room: the reason every scene ends with “Oh, I’ve gotta go” and cuts to a location shot is because Tommy Wiseau is lazy and has no idea how to switch from scene to scene.

I think if you actually examine the instances where those characters are knocked out you’ll notice your thesis isn’t really accurate in anyway.

I wouldn’t say in any way. Sure, the scene doesn’t always cut to one across the galaxy afterwards, but it’s true that this movie has a ton of people being knocked out to the point where it feels like a screenwriting crutch.

What a grand and intoxicating innocence. How could you be so naive? There is no escape. Come, lay down your weapons. It is not too late for my mercy.
Episode 9 Rewrite THE SHATTERED SWORD (Complete!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V3 Released!) and The Starlight Project (WORKPRINT RELEASED!)

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NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

FreezingTNT2 said:

There’s a problem I don’t see anyone talk about: ever notice how almost anytime the movie needs to suddenly go somewhere else, a character is stunned unconscious? Poe, Finn (twice), Kylo, Leia, and Rose are all knocked out so the scene can move to another location across the galaxy. It’s almost like the writers don’t know how to end a scene, so they just knocks out a character to take a nap. It’s like watching The Room: the reason every scene ends with “Oh, I’ve gotta go” and cuts to a location shot is because Tommy Wiseau is lazy and has no idea how to switch from scene to scene.

I think if you actually examine the instances where those characters are knocked out you’ll notice your thesis isn’t really accurate in anyway.

I wouldn’t say in any way. Sure, the scene doesn’t always cut to one across the galaxy afterwards, but it’s true that this movie has a ton of people being knocked out to the point where it feels like a screenwriting crutch.

I mean, that’s a different argument than the one I responded to.

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DELETED COMMENT

The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequel and Disney trilogies is that they will always be around. Forever. They will never go away. It can never be undone.

I also prefer to be referred to as “TNT”, not “Freezing”.

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Can anyone tell me why Kylo suddenly changes from wanting to build a new order and let the past die to just deciding to be in charge of the First Order? It is not at all clear what prompts this change of heart.

The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequel and Disney trilogies is that they will always be around. Forever. They will never go away. It can never be undone.

I also prefer to be referred to as “TNT”, not “Freezing”.

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Rey rejecting him, right? I thought that was pretty clear.

a trolling bantha

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I don’t remember Kylo ever saying anything about wanting to destroy the First Order. In his “let old things die” speech, he mentioned Snoke, Luke, the Sith, the Jedi, and the Rebels, but he never mentioned the First Order.

My preferred saga experience:
ANH (4K77), ESB (Harmy), ROTJ (4K83).
Everything else is optional.

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StarkillerAG said:

I don’t remember Kylo ever saying anything about wanting to destroy the First Order. In his “let old things die” speech, he mentioned Snoke, Luke, the Sith, the Jedi, and the Rebels, but he never mentioned the First Order.

Fixed my comment.

The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequel and Disney trilogies is that they will always be around. Forever. They will never go away. It can never be undone.

I also prefer to be referred to as “TNT”, not “Freezing”.

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The First Order is the new order he’s talking about. He’s already part of it, and now he’s running it. He wants her to join him so they can run it together.

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Yeah, I agree with Ash that Rey rejecting his offer made Kylo regress into his old ways. He speaks of letting the past die, but his failure on Crait demonstrated that he hasn’t really let go of the past. He might mold the First Order into this ideal he wants to achieve in IX, though, but from what we’ve seen it seems like he is still regressing.

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Maybe the reason he suddenly changed in-between these two scenes is because he was manipulating Rey?

The unfortunate reality of the Star Wars prequel and Disney trilogies is that they will always be around. Forever. They will never go away. It can never be undone.

I also prefer to be referred to as “TNT”, not “Freezing”.

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Broom Kid said:

The First Order is the new order he’s talking about. He’s already part of it, and now he’s running it. He wants her to join him so they can run it together.

This. He’s the Supreme Leader now. How else would he stir shit up and rule the galaxy if he didn’t have an empire he was in control of?

But also this

ChainsawAsh said:

Rey rejecting him, right? I thought that was pretty clear.

Rey’s rejection is definitely a set back. In a way it perhaps mirrors Anakin’s proposal to Padme to overthrow the Emperor and take over the galaxy. Once she says no, it takes a toll. Looks like this will likely be explored in TROS.

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FreezingTNT2 said:

Can anyone tell me why Kylo suddenly changes from wanting to build a new order and let the past die to just deciding to be in charge of the First Order? It is not at all clear what prompts this change of heart.

Directorial musical chairs.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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ATMachine said:

FreezingTNT2 said:

Can anyone tell me why Kylo suddenly changes from wanting to build a new order and let the past die to just deciding to be in charge of the First Order? It is not at all clear what prompts this change of heart.

Directorial musical chairs.

Within one movie? News to me.

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He decides to be in charge of the First Order the second he decides he’s going to kill Snoke. Which happens before he gives that ‘let the past die’ speech. The past he’s talking about doesn’t include the First Order, because that’s his present.

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I haven’t looked very deeply into the making of TLJ but at some point I was led to believe the original cut was longer and some scenes were moved around at some point. Not atypical but I did personally find the final pacing odd, maybe tightening the already longest episode so far in the saga accounts for some of the character motivations not feeling perfectly in sync for everyone? Depending on how things were moved.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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act on instinct said:

I haven’t looked very deeply into the making of TLJ but at some point I was led to believe the original cut was longer and some scenes were moved around at some point. Not atypical but I did personally find the final pacing odd, maybe tightening the already longest episode so far in the saga accounts for some of the character motivations not feeling perfectly in sync for everyone? Depending on how things were moved.

All films have an initial cut that’s longer than the finished product. With TLJ, though, it’s easier to see what was cut due to the fact that they actually included most (if not all) of the deleted scenes on the BD, and you can also easily tell how far into the process they were cut by how finished the effects are. As well, some of the deleted scenes clue you into earlier, different sequencing of the film (like, originally cutting back to Leia and the Resistance after Rey explains the situation to Luke, rather than staying with them on the island).

As for the final result, because those scenes are available, you can pretty much decide for yourself if tightening it up hurt or helped.

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Are there other examples beyond not cutting back to the Resistance? I’m mostly sticking to scenes being moved and how the original script momentum is vs the theatrical edit. Crait was the real point where it felt too long and almost came across as an addendum chapter, of course it also contains some of the most vital pieces of the movie.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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I was just thinking about this movie a little today, and while I don’t mind the Canto Bight sequence, I had a thought about an alternative route they could’ve taken with Finn’s storyline. This was originally going to be a brief paragraph but it turned into an outline, so I hope you’ll indulge me.

I know many people feel the space chase feels rather dull, but I think Finn’s story could have stayed entirely on the Raddus. With RJ’s new “whodunnit” movie Knives Out just released, I think you could have had a story set entirely on the massive rebel ship where it is a race against the clock to identify the First Order spy who they believe is responsible for leaking their location.

In the scene where Holdo is introduced, the Resistance Officer could explain that they believe there is a spy on board transmitting their location to the First Order. Everyone would look around wondering if the spy is in the room with them at that very moment. Then, she introduces Holdo, a former Rebel leader and surviving New Republic senator. This set up could help emphasize why Holdo does not discuss her plan with anyone (because of the spy, Holdo tells Poe it is a “need-to-know” plan), and why Poe distrusts her. Leia told him some New Republic senators were secret First Order agents, and how did Holdo avoid being killed on Hosnian Prime? He begins to wonder if Holdo is actually sabotaging their chances of survival.

At the beginning of the film, Finn wakes up from his coma (which will have a bigger effect on Finn this time around), but when Poe finds him roaming the halls, Finn doesn’t immediately recognize Poe. Poe begins to explain everything and suddenly the memories begin flooding back, leading to “Where’s Rey?” Poe gives Finn the jacket back, and Finn admits that he hasn’t joined their cause, but Poe says it is okay and that he is “Where he belongs”.

Later on, he tries to jump ship like in the movie, but Rose throws him in the brig with another deserter that could fit the role of DJ, a voice of disillusionment for Finn. Poe comes to the brig and is disappointed with him, but gives Finn a second chance by getting him to use his knowledge to help identify the First Order spy. Seeing how helping save the fleet could save Rey (and being currently useless behind bars), he agrees to help. Poe recruits Rose to help Finn with this secret mission, and while she distrusts Finn, Poe vouches for Finn and explained how Finn saved his life. DJ tries to chime in with a suggestion, but they ignore him.

As Poe tries to determine Holdo’s loyalties, Rose and Finn go spy-hunting across the massive capital ship they’re on. This would replace the Casino scene. Through an investigation sequence we would meet various human and alien Resistance members, and as Finn is trying to help identify the spy, he would learn how they have all been affected by the First Order. During this, Finn’s own loyalties get questioned. Rose asks Finn about how he joined the First Order, and he tells her how he and the other stormtroopers were taken as children and brainwashed by the First Order. Rose then shares her own story to Finn about her sister and her homeworld. Hearing these various stories help Finn begin to sympathize with the cause more. As their conversation winds down, Finn and Rose catch someone in a suspicious act, which leads them into an intense chase throughout the ship. They eventually catch him with BB-8’s help. Poe interrogates him in the brig (reflecting his own interrogation in TFA), but concludes that he isn’t a spy, but just another frightened soldier trying to jump ship.

With little to no leads, they begin to wonder if they will be able to find the spy in time. Rose suggests that if they could somehow get on board their ship, she could access their computers and determine the identity of the spy. Finn counters that getting onto Snoke’s ship is impossible. Then, DJ interjects from a nearby cell, “I can do it.” He explains he can slice through their shields so they can reach the First Order’s server. In return, he wants to be free to take a ship and leave after the mission. While they don’t fully trust them, in their desperation they come up with the plan: they’ll sneak onto Snoke’s ship and identify the spy, relay that info to Poe who will then arrest them and make the jump to hyperspace. 3PO, who is with them, tells Poe that Holdo would not agree to this plan, and Poe retorts that it is a “need-to-know” plan.

So Finn, Rose, DJ, and BB-8 steal a ship and sneak onto the Supremacy. While Poe mutinies (already believing Holdo to be the spy), they make it to the computer and they find a hologram recording of the spy communicating with the First Order. And the big moment reveals it to be…. Finn. Finn has no recollection of this, but after they are captured, Hux and Phasma explain how it happened. When Finn woke up from his coma, he thought that he was still a stormtrooper. When he realized where he was, he thought he had been captured and subsequently contacted the First Order via hologram (like Maz), who then saw the opportunity to recondition him as a sleeper agent. Maybe we could get some brief flashbacks as Finn remembers these events, and see them use some form of hypnosis to recondition Finn. This is why Finn had amnesia initially in the film.

DJ is revealed to have thrown the Resistance under the sail barge like in the theatrical film, and Hux then orders to start blowing up the Resistance transports. We watch as the various Resistance members we met and heard stories from during Finn and Rose’s investigation get killed one by one. All because of Finn. Rose is shocked and Finn is distraught, but after Hux leaves, Phasma uses some kind of hypnotic suggestion on Finn to make him try and kill Rose. Finn tries to fight against the command, but he’s overcome. Rose tries to snap him out of it, telling him he is a good person. Right when you think he is going to kill Rose, (maybe he is choking her death, and sees his own reflection in the hangar floor) Finn overcomes the conditioning and retakes control. Finn then fights Phasma, defeats her, then they escape.

Finn decides to go back to “where he belongs” and they rendezvous with the Resistance. Poe is angry at Finn when they return, but Rose vouches for Finn and explains how he broke his conditioning and saved her life. Leia says she believes them. Finn apologizes to Poe and they kiss and make up. Finn is ready to get back at the First Order for what they did to him. He is angry, and full of guilt with the deaths he has indirectly caused. So when Finn tries to fly into the cannon, his motivation to do so feels even more justified. I would actually keep Rose stopping Finn, because I think it would reflect nicely with Finn saving hers. I would just make it more obvious that Finn would not have stopped it and it was purely suicide, maybe show an AT-AT about to shoot him and she knocks him out of the way. I also like the parallel of Finn ending TFA unconscious from trying to protect a friend, and then Rose does the same for Finn in TLJ.

The sleeper agent angle might feel corny, but I think that would help keep the focus on Finn and his character arc for this film. He has these two sides in him, and we actually get to see that internal battle made manifest.

To be honest I still like the film as-is, but I think something like this would’ve been fun too.

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You got me excited enough my post basically doubled its size with my own spitballing, love fun constructive takes like this! Anyone intimidated by long posts RogueLeader’s outline here is really worth it.

Really glad you took the time to write this all out, a very compelling script doctor and I’m 100% with you for about the first third. Lot of good suggestions that would seriously impact the pacing by introducing characters earlier and giving them chances to breathe and share their perspectives on where they came from and their place in the war, there’s a lot of fun parallels to play with when also considering the other half of the story. Not so sure about the Finn sleeper cell twist especially having to fight commands that does seem too corny and contrived to me. But Finn can still be held to some level of indirect blame. Maybe to try and get clever about it his body itself potentially has a tracker that turns on the moment he wakes up from his coma, maybe as a way to recollect or keep track of FO troops that went AWOL, FN-2187 was declared too severely injured or dead on a planet that exploded, but when he awakes his condition is back to stable in a new location which immediately pings the First Order’s radar which would be under the supervision of Phasma. I also like the dynamic of Finn caught between being called a traitor by both sides.

I remember wishing there was more of a spy thing happening on the Raddus as well, also gives a bit more dignity to Poe to raise mutiny over, but I’d still worry the ship wouldn’t be either big or interesting enough compared to a planet. Of course, if a “spy” is transmitting their location it can really be a number of planets and the Raddus itself is more like a cloaked hub the Resistance uses as a proxy to scatter and hide their members in different bases like an underground railroad as a crude method against the First Order which quickly seized new levels of control and surveillance, then we can eliminate the entire slow chase and instead replace it with a hide and seek mind game ambush when the Supremacy ultimately reveals itself. Also explains the beginning how the FO keeps finding them wherever they are almost immediately, hence still on the run. This could eventually lead to the “nobody’s coming” levels of desperation by the end as the Resistance has really gone place to place and through their own running for their lives endangered others, out of resources and out of favors. Leading up to this the paranoia of the Resistance could rise being much more careful of identifying everyone shuffling in and out of the Raddus seeing them make hard choices with saving refugees and such giving Rose real weight to her job, then when Finn wants to leave it is no joke, neither when Poe wants to disobey orders to not just go back and forth to whichever system he’s assigned, seeing it as pointless distraction reaching a boiling point where he publicly accuses Holdo to be the spy, maybe previously confidential intel, inciting a panic. If we run with the idea Finn is a tracker that’s back online once he’s out of his coma, that can also be around the time Holdo shows up, which makes the catalyst for Poe’s suspicion it’s her rather than just rejecting her as an authority figure.

Ha guess I’m pretty passionate about this section of the film too, especially when it seems more unanimous even to those who liked TLJ these were the weakest elements. I just hated being bored by the lack of conflict on the Raddus and I definitely felt like Canto Bight was meant to be the fun part of the adventure but it just didn’t work for me at all.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV