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Episode VII: The Force Awakens - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 227

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AHHHH-

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He was an ad bot the whole time.

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Keep Circulating the Tapes.

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Taking this comment to this thread.

yotsuya said:

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

yotsuya said:

MalàStrana said:

For myself I would say I don’t hate any of them and I would, some day, rewatch every single one of them, but I can’t pretend that I like TPM, AOTC, R1, Solo, TFA… (I like some of them when propertly fan edited though) I can enjoy them, find qualities, rewatch a few sequences and be glad to see the “SW soul” supplement in them compared to the average blockbuster, but I honestly don’t like all of them. As a whole, it’s different, and maybe the “I-IX” experience may give the Saga something more as a complete movement than what just separate entries do.

ATOC and TFA are the only ones I did not fully enjoy on my first viewing. Both have segments that just took me right out of the film and derailed the story for me and I have never been able to recover from that. Both need a good fan edit (I would do it very lightly with as few changes as possible) to bring them up to the nearest stories. I cannot say I hate any of them, but those two I have the most profound issues with. Though in contemplating it, one of my issues with TFA has led to a personal retcon that solves a lot of issues for the entire Star Wars universe. Still, it would be a better movie if that was not needed. And the sections of ATOC are just bad and need to be axed.

Indeed AotC’s bad bits, while pretty bad, are relatively harmless. It doesn’t uproot the story or universe. It’s just bad scenes and/or dialogue that can easily be cut. It’s not the same as the problems some people have with TLJ or that I have with RotJ that come from taking the saga in an infuriatingly terrible direction. Granted, some of the problems are also the sort of harmless, easily removed, stuff with no implications down the line, like AotC, which just makes them even worse.

Out of curiosity, what is the headcanon you mentioned concerning TFA?

Both TFA and TESB have some issues with the use of the word system. Take it as it is typically meant, that of a star system, and both those movies are derailed by science. But if you take that to be a planetary system (a planet and its moons) you can have the Millennium Falcon fly from Hoth to Bespin in a reasonable amount of time and you can have the people on Takodana watch the destruction of the Hosnian system without it being completely impossible. But even in the same system, watching the destruction of the Hosnian system stretches believably too far for me.

That would mean a weapon designed to destroy an entire system is actually not destroying the entire system, and also begging the question of why a pirate hideout is right next door to the Republic capital.

Well, first off, what we see destroyed is a planetary system, not a star system. We see a planet and its moons destroyed. No star visible on screen or indicated at all. The phrase system destroying would thus be defined as a planetary system, not a solar system. As for a pirate hangout right next door, its not like that is unusual in real history or the Star Wars universe. Capitals seem to be a good place for crime.

The ‘official’ sources would disagree with you:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hosnian_system

I agree with the sentiment that the planets are too close together, but that’s yet another JJ not caring about astronomy thing.

RogueLeader said:

There are canon (or at least common headcanon) explanations for these two things.

The ESB one has been debated for years. But basically, the Falcon has a secondary, albeit extraordinarily slow, backup hyperdrive. It’s like a spare tire for space travel. This also explains how the Empire and Boba Fett got there before they did once they knew where they were going.

As for why everyone can see the destruction of Hosnian Prime… it’s definitely a hand-wavy explanation but this is what Wookiepedia says.

When the Starkiller Base superweapon released the quintessence [dark energy] it had collected within its core, it was transformed into phantom energy [another state of dark energy], which would follow the line of egress that had been provided by the weapon’s technicians according to planetary rotation, inclination, etc, through a hole in “sub-hyperspace”, until it was intercepted by an object of sufficient mass. When the beam of phantom energy interacted with a planet, it ignited its core, creating a pocket nova. Large amounts of phantom energy could create temporary rips in sub-hyperspace, which allowed the Hosnian Catacylsm in 34 ABY to become visible from across the galaxy as it happened.

So basically, since the weapon made light/energy travel faster than lightspeed itself, it created a disruption in space-time, which made it so the light from the destruction was visible at hyper-light speeds across the galaxy. So not only could the people on Takodana see it, but so could everyone else if they were facing the right direction. I know in the video game Battlefront 2, the characters can see the Hosnian destruction from another planet called Vardos.

Is this Star Wars or Star Trek?

But the better answer is that it’s just Star Wars, the same galaxy where starships fly like there is air friction, where you can hear sound in space, and giant worms live in asteroids. Did I forget to mention the space wizards with laser swords?

The problem is not with the existence of impossible technology and creative portrayals of physics, but in how well they are established in order to tell an effective story.

Friction and sound in space (and associated living conditions) connects the fantastical elements to something understandable and engaging to average movegoers. The sound aspect also could be interpreted as creative license on the part of the moviemakers as opposed to being actually there (the Radio Drama goes this route).

Lightsabers are like swords but made of light. Maybe impossible but only wielded by the magical wizards so they might be magical too.

Magical wizards are well established before the halfway point of the first movie and are a primary aspect of the story.

The Death Star is established as impossibly destructive in the opening crawl of the first movie. Its plausibility is not an issue because of this - it’s a brute fact around which the entire movie turns.

The Starkiller Base is not a brute fact from the outset of the story. It appears partway through, uses technology we’ve never seen before and is never mentioned again, all to only be of so little consequence that the destruction of the Hosnian system can be removed from the movie without any significant impact on the main characters. This is why I dislike the ‘space wizards’ defense of these movies - it is so often used as a blanket defense of lazy, convenient writing.

What a grand and intoxicating innocence. How could you be so naive? There is no escape. Come, lay down your weapons. It is not too late for my mercy.
Episode 9 Rewrite THE SHATTERED SWORD (Complete!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V3 Released!) and The Starlight Project (WORKPRINT RELEASED!)

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SKB can be a storytelling problem without it being a logic problem. I think saying “it’s fantasy” is a totally fair defense for the technical “issues.” Doesn’t necessarily excuse its contrived placement in the story, because they’re two separate things.

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Haha, it’s so funny you brought this conversation to another thread because I was just thinking of doing the same.

I do agree with you. I think the “space wizard” argument is used to remind people that this isn’t a hard science fiction story, I think the issue isn’t that people are trying to put science into a space fantasy, but that a fictional universe tends to follow it’s own set of rules for what is and isn’t possible, etc.

It’s like what Dom says. How it works isn’t as much of an issue, but how it fits into the plot is more of an issue for most people I think.

I think the purpose of these kind of rules is to create consistent obstructions to goals in your universe, which allows the stakes to maintain a certain value. It serves to make the plot engaging. It’s hard to explain, but when those “rules” lose consistency, it tends to lower the stakes of previous stories and makes it harder to suspend one’s disbelief. Otherwise soft magic or science answers to narrative problems can be used as a deus ex machina. And people really can suspend their disbelief in any story if it is set up properly, I believe. I think the debates between hard and soft magic systems as well as hard and soft science fiction would fit in well with this topic.

And this is where we get into the “science” debate of Star Wars. Now, I don’t think everything “science” related needs to be explained, like Leia surviving the vacuum of space for short period of time, for example. I don’t think Han and Leia reaching Bespin from Hoth is a major issue. If you can explain it in two words, like “backup hyperdrive”, I think it still works. Also, the time it takes to get there isn’t defined, which I think helps. It helps keep it in the “soft science fiction” range.

But, I do agree that Starkiller Base is my least favorite aspect of TFA. With Starkiller Base, while it is definitely soft science fiction, I personally think the problem is that it isn’t set up very well in the story, like you said.

The Death Star was made at the height of the Empire’s power. But Starkiller Base is extremely more powerful than the Death Star ever was. Not only that, but it is built by an Imperial remnant faction that has been in hiding, but somehow has the resources to build something exponentially stronger than the old Empire’s greatest superweapon. I know a lot of you on here have seen this discussion a dozen plus times already so I apologize for that, but I do think that Starkiller could have worked if it had just been set up better than it was, if a superweapon was so necessary.

I mean, they have had 30 years to develop the technology in secret, and they could have set up that criminal groups were funneling money to the First Order or something like that.

We sort of get a glimpse of that when Poe Dameron sees the First Order Star Destroyer for the first time. He looks around in awe, probably wondering where the hell they got the money to build it.

Regardless, I do think seeing the Hosnian destruction from the across the galaxy feels “plot convenient”. For all we know it is just a bigger Death Star laser, and now we’re scratching our heads as to why our heroes can see it from wherever they are. This is something I’m very glad that Restructured fixes. It’s a lot more effective in that edit, in my opinion.

I don’t know, I think for me it’s that it makes the Death Star feel a little less special. I think there is a decent argument that if the First Order is trying to emulate the Empire, then of course they would try build their own death star, and it is the perfect weapon to destroy the Republic, the Resistance, and Luke Skywalker without losing one soldier. There is also this nice irony that if Starkiller Base is Ilum, then the First Order has turned a sacred Jedi world into an evil machine, but that is not made obvious in the movie whatsoever.

From what I understand there was a superweapon even in George’s treatment for Episode 7, and I’m sure JJ thought it was necessary to make TFA feel familiar. I just think there were other alternatives to this. Just have Starkiller be a Base, and have a big First Order fleet destroy the New Republic capital. Or make Starkiller Base like the Star Forge, and it would help explain how the First Order got their resources. Maybe the First Order had an Eclipse-like ship with a superlaser, which might’ve been a bit more believable.

I know that even as late as March 2014 that they were still throwing around the idea of the Resistance having a large ship called the Warhammer, which would’ve been used to break through the First Order planetary shield. It would’ve been interesting if that had been a New Republic ship, maybe used to break through planetary shields of the few Imperial holdouts across the galaxy, or be a literal fleet-buster. Maybe the First Order could have sneaked on board and used it to destroy the New Republic capital that way.

Of course you can “what-if” endlessly, and while I still really enjoy TFA, Starkiller Base is one thing I just sort of tolerate for the sake of the story.

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I think the biggest issue with Starkiller Base and its attack is that it doesn’t have a strong impact on any of our main characters, at least that we can see. Finn sees it and his only remark is informing everyone that the First Order was behind it. In the next sentence he’s already moving on. Han just sort of looks at it, and Leia hasn’t been introduced and never mentions it afterwards. Rey, our lead or co-lead character, doesn’t even know about it.

In Star Wars, the Alderaan system destruction had a big emotional impact on Leia and Ben, and all of our main characters were shocked at its destruction when they literally ran into its pulverized remains.

For the Starkiller Base to work, it will need to have an impact on at least one of our main characters in a substantial way. This will probably go into my fanedit ideas thread, but my current idea is to have the base fire right after Poe flies out of the Oscillator, and have the Starkiller firing be what causes the Oscillator to explode. The Hosnian destruction will happen right before Rey taps into the Force as she’s fighting with Kylo, so there could be the sound of ‘a million voices crying out in terror’ as she goes into her trance and is flooded by this terrible surge of darkness. This is what drives her to defeat Kylo in such a righteous rage, and is the best way I’ve found to make the Hosnian destruction mean something to our main character.

What a grand and intoxicating innocence. How could you be so naive? There is no escape. Come, lay down your weapons. It is not too late for my mercy.
Episode 9 Rewrite THE SHATTERED SWORD (Complete!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V3 Released!) and The Starlight Project (WORKPRINT RELEASED!)

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That’s a good point. You’re basically saying that even if Starkiller Base was better set up, it still doesn’t address the fact that it barely has any relevance to the characters. So by repositioning the destruction, you could have it tie in more to the characters’ motivation.

I would definitely be interested in seeing that. That could work, but on the other hand maybe it is disconnected to “the story we care about”, as JJ calls it in the TFA commentary, because they didn’t want Death Star 3.0 to be very integral to the fresh part of the story, if that makes sense. Like, if you can’t get those two thing being connected to work, then they’re better off being separated.

Han just sort of looks at it

Accurate.

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RogueLeader said:

That’s a good point. You’re basically saying that even if Starkiller Base was better set up, it still doesn’t address the fact that it barely has any relevance to the characters. So by repositioning the destruction, you could have it tie in more to the characters’ motivation.

I would definitely be interested in seeing that. That could work, but on the other hand maybe it is disconnected to “the story we care about”, as JJ calls it in the TFA commentary, because they didn’t want Death Star 3.0 to be very integral to the fresh part of the story, if that makes sense. Like, if you can’t get those two thing being connected to work, then they’re better off being separated.

I haven’t actually heard the commentary, probably should do that.

But it sounds like JJ couldn’t think of anything better than a Death Star 3.0 while also realizing how boring that would be and simultaneously de-emphasizing its importance. Like you said, we’d been better off without it. Would it have been so hard for him to include a ‘boring’ exposition scene where we learn what’s happening in the galaxy? That’s what this movie really needs. Just one, anywhere.

What a grand and intoxicating innocence. How could you be so naive? There is no escape. Come, lay down your weapons. It is not too late for my mercy.
Episode 9 Rewrite THE SHATTERED SWORD (Complete!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V3 Released!) and The Starlight Project (WORKPRINT RELEASED!)

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Haha, never expected to see a Fiddler on the Roof reference here.

While I already own TFA digitally and on Blu-Ray, I actually listened to it again recently on soundclooud so I could listen to it while I ran errands.
I think the commentaries for the new movies are a must for anyone that might have some issues with the films. I really liked hearing his perspective on Finn and his reasoning behind certain decisions. He does like to talk about “REAL sets, PRACTICAL effects” a little too much, but he also praises the army of CGI artists a lot too so it is pretty balanced.

I agree. I think Restructured, with the additional deleted moments regarding Leia and the Republic, and maybe a really solid opening crawl, is as good as we’re gonna get without some radical changes that or may not even be possible.

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NeverarGreat said:

RogueLeader said:

That’s a good point. You’re basically saying that even if Starkiller Base was better set up, it still doesn’t address the fact that it barely has any relevance to the characters. So by repositioning the destruction, you could have it tie in more to the characters’ motivation.

I would definitely be interested in seeing that. That could work, but on the other hand maybe it is disconnected to “the story we care about”, as JJ calls it in the TFA commentary, because they didn’t want Death Star 3.0 to be very integral to the fresh part of the story, if that makes sense. Like, if you can’t get those two thing being connected to work, then they’re better off being separated.

I haven’t actually heard the commentary, probably should do that.

But it sounds like JJ couldn’t think of anything better than a Death Star 3.0 while also realizing how boring that would be and simultaneously de-emphasizing its importance. Like you said, we’d been better off without it. Would it have been so hard for him to include a ‘boring’ exposition scene where we learn what’s happening in the galaxy? That’s what this movie really needs. Just one, anywhere.

I would argue that a scene that explains what’s happening in the galaxy is only really “needed” for the more serious fans. It would be at least equally irrelevant to the story at hand as the destruction of Hosnian Prime (if not quite a bit more so).

To be clear though, I agree they really should have included such a scene. It could (if done right) had added a lot and cleared up fan confusion.

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Ironically I was kind of okay with SK base in theory. There was a great Marvel SW story between TESB and RoTJ where the Empire built a new ‘Death Star’ by simply recreating the Ionic cannon and putting some stuff around it (as opposed to building a whole moon). SK seemed like that to me - a great cost-effective way of building a superweapon without splashing out on housing. The minute Poe said “this was the Death Star…this is SK base…” the whole thing collapsed for me, because even the ‘built’ bits were much bigger than the Death Star.

Then when the whole sucking suns dry and hyperspace viewing etc etc stuff kicked in I was like “please make it stop”. It’s a shame because I do like TFA, but there’s some incredibly stupid writing in it.

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I remember the whole idea of cost-effectiveness being another rationalization for the base, especially since the new canon seems to imply that Starkiller Base is Ilum, the planet the Jedi would go to to get their lightsabers crystals. After the Jedi Purge, the Empire basically mined Ilum for its kyber crystals to the point where you could see the planet’s molten core from space. This makes it seem like the Empire had already dug the hole for the First Order, and they just had to fill it in.

But yeah, when Poe is like, “this was the Death Star… THIS is Starkiller Base!", were they expecting the audience to be like, “Woah! It’s so big!” It’s like they thought Starkiller Base could work if we can make it even bigger and badder than the last two Death Stars!
I almost wish Poe had said, “This was the Death Star… and this was the SECOND Death Star… but THIS is Starkiller Base!”

I almost feel like pointing out the size just makes it worse, like they’re trying to make it seem like a bigger threat by literally making bigger, which feels like lazy writing. I wonder if the size had not been as drastic, or if there was just one massive hole in the base rather than a giant semicircular trench, it would be a little bit more acceptable. I think editors would be better off just cutting some of those lines and just go from “It’s another Death Star!” to “How is possible to power a weapon of that size?” More skilled editors could insert a gas giant or planet near Starkiller Base to establish the base as a moon to help deemphasize its scale, but it’s probably not that big of a deal.

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RogueLeader said:
But yeah, when Poe is like, “this was the Death Star… THIS is Starkiller Base!", were they expecting the audience to be like, “Woah! It’s so big!” It’s like they thought Starkiller Base could work if we can make it even bigger and badder than the last two Death Stars!
I almost wish Poe had said, “This was the Death Star… and this was the SECOND Death Star… but THIS is Starkiller Base!”

I almost feel like pointing out the size just makes it worse, like they’re trying to make it seem like a bigger threat by literally making bigger, which feels like lazy writing. I wonder if the size had not been as drastic, or if there was just one massive hole in the base rather than a giant semicircular trench, it would be a little bit more acceptable. I think editors would be better off just cutting some of those lines and just go from “It’s another Death Star!” to “How is possible to power a weapon of that size?” More skilled editors could insert a gas giant or planet near Starkiller Base to establish the base as a moon to help deemphasize its scale, but it’s probably not that big of a deal.

Perhaps in the next one we’ll get “this was the Death Star, this was the second Death Star, this was the Starkiller base, and this is the Mega-gamma-explodie-base!!!..which I hasten to add is protected by a shield generated on the nearby forest moon of Epdor (which is populated by space-Wombles)…”

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RogueLeader said:

I remember the whole idea of cost-effectiveness being another rationalization for the base, especially since the new canon seems to imply that Starkiller Base is Ilum, the planet the Jedi would go to to get their lightsabers crystals. After the Jedi Purge, the Empire basically mined Ilum for its kyber crystals to the point where you could see the planet’s molten core from space. This makes it seem like the Empire had already dug the hole for the First Order, and they just had to fill it in.

But yeah, when Poe is like, “this was the Death Star… THIS is Starkiller Base!", were they expecting the audience to be like, “Woah! It’s so big!” It’s like they thought Starkiller Base could work if we can make it even bigger and badder than the last two Death Stars!
I almost wish Poe had said, “This was the Death Star… and this was the SECOND Death Star… but THIS is Starkiller Base!”

I almost feel like pointing out the size just makes it worse, like they’re trying to make it seem like a bigger threat by literally making bigger, which feels like lazy writing. I wonder if the size had not been as drastic, or if there was just one massive hole in the base rather than a giant semicircular trench, it would be a little bit more acceptable. I think editors would be better off just cutting some of those lines and just go from “It’s another Death Star!” to “How is possible to power a weapon of that size?” More skilled editors could insert a gas giant or planet near Starkiller Base to establish the base as a moon to help deemphasize its scale, but it’s probably not that big of a deal.

Now I must investigate the potential of such an edit. Curse you.

What a grand and intoxicating innocence. How could you be so naive? There is no escape. Come, lay down your weapons. It is not too late for my mercy.
Episode 9 Rewrite THE SHATTERED SWORD (Complete!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V3 Released!) and The Starlight Project (WORKPRINT RELEASED!)

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I saw a post on imdb that really cracked me up. The poster (whose handle is ‘bobsutherby’) points out that by draining the sun, the SK Base consequently kills every planet in that system anyway. So all the base needs to do is drain stars!

Which begs the question (this is me now) - how does the FO choose which system it will destroy in order to power up to destroy another? Does it wait until at least 2 systems are in transgression, or does it have to choose stars with uninhabited or no planets?

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This assumes that Starkiller is mobile and/or can drain stars from lightyears away. Neither ability is indicated, though it’s not ruled out completely. However, it makes sense to me that the only part of the Starkiller that can affect faraway stars is the ‘Hyperlightspeed weapon’.

What a grand and intoxicating innocence. How could you be so naive? There is no escape. Come, lay down your weapons. It is not too late for my mercy.
Episode 9 Rewrite THE SHATTERED SWORD (Complete!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V3 Released!) and The Starlight Project (WORKPRINT RELEASED!)

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Shopping Maul said:

I saw a post on imdb that really cracked me up. The poster (whose handle is ‘bobsutherby’) points out that by draining the sun, the SK Base consequently kills every planet in that system anyway. So all the base needs to do is drain stars!

Which begs the question (this is me now) - how does the FO choose which system it will destroy in order to power up to destroy another? Does it wait until at least 2 systems are in transgression, or does it have to choose stars with uninhabited or no planets?

I thought the IMDB forums were deleted after they closed them?

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SilverWook said:

Shopping Maul said:

I saw a post on imdb that really cracked me up. The poster (whose handle is ‘bobsutherby’) points out that by draining the sun, the SK Base consequently kills every planet in that system anyway. So all the base needs to do is drain stars!

Which begs the question (this is me now) - how does the FO choose which system it will destroy in order to power up to destroy another? Does it wait until at least 2 systems are in transgression, or does it have to choose stars with uninhabited or no planets?

I thought the IMDB forums were deleted after they closed them?

Archive?

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Make Off Topic great again.

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This is another benefit to the Restructured idea.

The base simply drains “the Sun” and fires upon targets. No awkward questions about it’s mobility are raised.

It seems like the filmmakers knew SKB was a bad idea but they decided to do it anyway, moving as quickly through it as possible.

Well done. I will disengage self-destruct initiative.

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Star Wars is fantasy, not science. Laser swords and space wizards. I love Interstellar, but I don’t want to see Finn twenty years older than Rey by the end of the next movie because they went to different planets. Just let some things be fantastical.

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SilverWook said:

Shopping Maul said:

I saw a post on imdb that really cracked me up. The poster (whose handle is ‘bobsutherby’) points out that by draining the sun, the SK Base consequently kills every planet in that system anyway. So all the base needs to do is drain stars!

Which begs the question (this is me now) - how does the FO choose which system it will destroy in order to power up to destroy another? Does it wait until at least 2 systems are in transgression, or does it have to choose stars with uninhabited or no planets?

I thought the IMDB forums were deleted after they closed them?

No, it was in the review section, but the guy decided to forgo a full review and just do a post about SK.

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Hal 9000 said:

This is another benefit to the Restructured idea.

The base simply drains “the Sun” and fires upon targets. No awkward questions about it’s mobility are raised.

It seems like the filmmakers knew SKB was a bad idea but they decided to do it anyway, moving as quickly through it as possible.

But it would have to be mobile to drain another sun. That’s what’s so ludicrous. Let’s apply SK to ep 4 and say it was about to destroy Alderaan at Tarkin’s behest. Would Motti (or whoever) have to go through a process to choose a worthy system to destroy in order to charge up and then destroy Alderaan? In other words the Empire/FO is committed to destroying two systems every time. “Let’s destroy Alderaan”. “Okay, well we need to find an appropriate sun to drain - any other systems in need of punishing since we’re stuck with a two-for-one deal?”

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Written material seems to imply that Starkiller Base is capable of traveling through hyperspace. Like Hal said, with the way Restructured is cut, it is not necessary to have to speculate on that question in his version.

Yes, draining a system’s star basically dooms any planet that exists in it, but it’s not a really effective method of genocide if the people on those planets can still evacuate their world.

I know Star Wars is pretty fast-and-loose with the science in science fiction, but there are definitely more uninhabited star systems than there are systems with habitable worlds, so it’s not like they really have to choose a system to sacrifice in order to destroy another. There are literally billions of stars in the galaxy to choose from.

Sure, they totally could doom another rebellious star system if they wanted, but they don’t have to.