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Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 99

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On the other hand, to me the whole trilogy has been about how there’s no way to definitively end tyranny, and how the dark side will always come back and you have to be prepared to stop it even in the face of knowing stopping it might not be permanent. To that end, I’ll be kinda upset if they “definitively” end the war, as I don’t think that’s be a very satisfying end to this story.

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What I see as the crux of this saga is how the Skywalker family has ended up as the linchpin in the Sith/Jedi conflict. So in some way the Skywalker family will end the age old Sith/Jedi conflict once and for all. The other thing I see is a fundamental change in understanding of the force. We have always taken Ben’s word from ANH that there is a dark side and light side to the force and the dark side is inherantly evil. What if that is not the case and the evil comes from how it is used. So if the Skywalker family can end the conflict and if Rey can start a new tradition of balanced used of both sides of the force, there will be no further conflict in the Galaxy, at least not for a very very long time (more like 3000 years instead of 30).

And what I see in the ST is a bunch of ideas floated in the EU (I haven’t adjusted to calling it Legends) and distilling them into an epic story to finish up the Saga. The Thrawn trilogy esentially did exactly what the First Order is doing, but lacked the dark side force master running things. Palpatine came back in a way in the EU. There were other dangers as well. So this trilogy has a lot of familiar things that I see no need to question. I was not a big follower of the EU, but I kept up on what the major books were about and read quite a few of them. I’ve also watched all of Clone Wars and Rebels. I try not to bring any of that up, but it does provide a lot of insight into where Lucasfilm may be taking the Saga, at least in terms of the force. There has been a big emphasis on balance, which cropped up in TLJ. And also having read the old Marvel comics, the original Star Wars scripts, and a bunch of other things, I’ve seen a lot of Lucas’s discarded ideas come back and seen just how much of the Star Wars universe has come from outside the films (and ended up in later films). So while Lucas as stated that the force is not like yin yang, the way things are moving very much make it a yin yang with the users being good or evil or even neutral. TPM introduced balance into the film canon and now it is time to see what that really means.

When it comes to Snoke, we already know that he is the leader of the First Order which rose from the ashes of the Empire. It has not been covered, but likely from a industrial complex on the outer rim where they at first kept the Empire alive and then decided to reconquer the galaxy. At what point Snoke came into the picture we don’t know. At what point Kylo Ren was turned we don’t know. At what point they came up with Starkiller Base we don’t know (though I can see this being one of Palpatine’s projects). Who Snoke is is only as important as the end of the saga needs it to be. That Palpatine was not completely defeated in ROTJ brings this back to the origin of the saga in TPM with Anakin (or his offspring) bringing balance to the force and the final defeat of Palpatine and the Sith. Just which of the Snoke/Palpatine relationship theories is accurate is immaterial to the ending. They will do something to tie things together that they think makes sense and that some will like and some won’t. But I think the ending of the Saga is going to be as personal as ROTJ was. It is going to finish the expanded story that grew from the battle between Luke, Vader, and Palpatine in ROTJ to the Jedi vs. Sith over thousands of years and bringing balance to the force. Lucas’s retelling of the end of ROTJ was pretty much shoehorned on to the existing movie and there is room for whatever Lucas had in his mind before he canned the ST for a decade.

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RogueLeader said:

Now that is a fun idea, Maul! Maybe Mothma became compromised some point after ROTJ. If Palpatine has really been influencing things beyond the grave, possessing or corrupting the leader of the New Republic seems like a logical path for a Sith Lord to take.

That also makes think of how I remember reading in the Art of TFA book that the Snoke-character at one point was considered to be female. Although I don’t know if the artist was referencing the Talon character, who apparently appeared in George’s original treatment, or just a female version of Snoke. A crone-like villain would’ve been a fun idea, since we have yet to have a female villain in the films outside of Zam Wessell, who has only a few minutes of screen time.

Regardless, I hope we get a female villain in one of the new film series. Would love to see a female Sith, maybe a Kreia/Darth Traya inspired character.

That’s possible, but having Mothma revealed as compromised from the get-go would have the same effect as say Obi Wan’s discomfort when speaking of how Luke’s father died, or seeing Leia respond to Luke’s telepathic message. These things were originally what they were at face value, but through the prism of George’s retcons gained a whole new dimension. The scene on the Mon Calamari ship in RoTJ would now have a whole new twist when viewing the trilogies together - “gosh, she was planning this all along!”.

But more importantly it would give the illusionary effect of the SE being a natural and necessary progression of the story. As it stands the saga goes “and they all lived happily ever after” followed by “except they didn’t”. It’s really just born of a need for more Star Wars (not that that’s a bad thing). In this instance it would be “yes, they lived happily ever after to a point, but there was a fly in the ointment”. Fans in the future would be praising Mothma’s subtle performance in RoTJ the same way newer fans attribute extra layers to Alec’s speech in ANH.

Essentially this is what I hope TROS will do - make it all feel like a natural progression from RoTJ in the same way the prequels were (theoretically) designed to dovetail into ANH.

I’m not familiar with Darth Talon, but I just looked her up and am already wishing she’d been in Snoke’s place! Having a villain so aesthetically different to Palpatine would’ve been awesome…

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yotsuya said:

What I see as the crux of this saga is how the Skywalker family has ended up as the linchpin in the Sith/Jedi conflict. So in some way the Skywalker family will end the age old Sith/Jedi conflict once and for all. The other thing I see is a fundamental change in understanding of the force. We have always taken Ben’s word from ANH that there is a dark side and light side to the force and the dark side is inherantly evil. What if that is not the case and the evil comes from how it is used. So if the Skywalker family can end the conflict and if Rey can start a new tradition of balanced used of both sides of the force, there will be no further conflict in the Galaxy, at least not for a very very long time (more like 3000 years instead of 30).

And what I see in the ST is a bunch of ideas floated in the EU (I haven’t adjusted to calling it Legends) and distilling them into an epic story to finish up the Saga. The Thrawn trilogy esentially did exactly what the First Order is doing, but lacked the dark side force master running things. Palpatine came back in a way in the EU. There were other dangers as well. So this trilogy has a lot of familiar things that I see no need to question. I was not a big follower of the EU, but I kept up on what the major books were about and read quite a few of them. I’ve also watched all of Clone Wars and Rebels. I try not to bring any of that up, but it does provide a lot of insight into where Lucasfilm may be taking the Saga, at least in terms of the force. There has been a big emphasis on balance, which cropped up in TLJ. And also having read the old Marvel comics, the original Star Wars scripts, and a bunch of other things, I’ve seen a lot of Lucas’s discarded ideas come back and seen just how much of the Star Wars universe has come from outside the films (and ended up in later films). So while Lucas as stated that the force is not like yin yang, the way things are moving very much make it a yin yang with the users being good or evil or even neutral. TPM introduced balance into the film canon and now it is time to see what that really means.

When it comes to Snoke, we already know that he is the leader of the First Order which rose from the ashes of the Empire. It has not been covered, but likely from a industrial complex on the outer rim where they at first kept the Empire alive and then decided to reconquer the galaxy. At what point Snoke came into the picture we don’t know. At what point Kylo Ren was turned we don’t know. At what point they came up with Starkiller Base we don’t know (though I can see this being one of Palpatine’s projects). Who Snoke is is only as important as the end of the saga needs it to be. That Palpatine was not completely defeated in ROTJ brings this back to the origin of the saga in TPM with Anakin (or his offspring) bringing balance to the force and the final defeat of Palpatine and the Sith. Just which of the Snoke/Palpatine relationship theories is accurate is immaterial to the ending. They will do something to tie things together that they think makes sense and that some will like and some won’t. But I think the ending of the Saga is going to be as personal as ROTJ was. It is going to finish the expanded story that grew from the battle between Luke, Vader, and Palpatine in ROTJ to the Jedi vs. Sith over thousands of years and bringing balance to the force. Lucas’s retelling of the end of ROTJ was pretty much shoehorned on to the existing movie and there is room for whatever Lucas had in his mind before he canned the ST for a decade.

Great post! From my point of view I think RoTJ trivialised the Dark Side somewhat. While TESB stated that the the Dark Side was “quicker, easier, more seductive”, it still implied (to me) that it was something of a process and a choice - whereas RoTJ made it seem more like a deadly virus that you catch if you get too angry. I prefer the notion that it’s more complicated than that, and that maybe the Jedi (and Sith) were being naive in even believing there was a ‘dark side’ as such. To that end I really like Luke’s speech about the light and the dark and the balance in-between that he makes in TLJ.

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DominicCobb said:

On the other hand, to me the whole trilogy has been about how there’s no way to definitively end tyranny, and how the dark side will always come back and you have to be prepared to stop it even in the face of knowing stopping it might not be permanent. To that end, I’ll be kinda upset if they “definitively” end the war, as I don’t think that’s be a very satisfying end to this story.

I think a good story should have a beginning and an end. A new story can unfold, but imo it should not be about Empire vs rebels, or a Jedi apprentice betraying his or her master. Been there, done that…twice… If you can’t tell an original story with new characters, who are put in new situations, better not tell a story at all, I think, or risk turning the franchise into a cliché. To paraphrase Bilbo Baggins, the Skywalker Saga already feels like butter scraped over too much bread for me.

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RogueLeader said:

A crone-like villain would’ve been a fun idea, since we have yet to have a female villain in the films outside of Zam Wessell, who has only a few minutes of screen time.

You forgot Phasma and Qi’ra

“You want to sell me Death sticks” -Obi-Vod Kanobi

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DominicCobb said:

nl0428 said:

I do hope that heated arguments on both this thread and the entire fan base will eventually die by this December, or at least in the next few years. I just would like to have fun with both the franchise and the fandom without being yelled at or harassed for my thoughts and appreciations.

Oh you think it’s bad now, things are gonna go nuclear come December. On the one hand you have all the fans who are primed to hate it no matter what, on the other you have fans with high expectations for the film that could never be met. It won’t be pretty.

Then I might as well just unsubscribe from this thread, then.

Noah Lawson

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I’m primed to either feel Justice League or Star Trek Into Darkness levels of nausea. I’d prefer it not to be this way of course but I have little faith in the film makers involved, and it was the same when the man behind Jurassic World was still attached. I’ll be very surprised if it’s any better or worse than TFA but that’s the realistic bar I imagine they’re aiming for, depending on how indulgent JJ is and how much Saga stuff Disney demands.

Yub Nub for life

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

On the other hand, to me the whole trilogy has been about how there’s no way to definitively end tyranny, and how the dark side will always come back and you have to be prepared to stop it even in the face of knowing stopping it might not be permanent. To that end, I’ll be kinda upset if they “definitively” end the war, as I don’t think that’s be a very satisfying end to this story.

I think a good story should have a beginning and an end. A new story can unfold, but imo it should not be about Empire vs rebels, or a Jedi apprentice betraying his or her master. Been there, done that…twice… If you can’t tell an original story with new characters, who are put in new situations, better not tell a story at all, I think, or risk turning the franchise into a cliché. To paraphrase Bilbo Baggins, the Skywalker Saga already feels like butter scraped over too much bread for me.

To me, you can end a story without having a definitive end to everything going on. A lot of great, conclusive endings still have some elements of ambiguity and suggestion that things will continue beyond the final page. Star Wars hasn’t been a true fairytale since at least 1980, so I don’t think a perfect little all encompassing ending with a bow and cherry on top is fitting, especially after the last two episodes. Hell, even the original film still had Vader getting away as the heroes celebrated. It’s part of the serial tradition.

Personally I’d be disappointed if we get a definitive ending to the conflict, but I’d be equally disappointed if we got an Episode X somewhere down the line (for fear of what is there left to say?). I’d rather imagine the episodes continue but we don’t see them, because the saga’s story has been fully told.

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DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

On the other hand, to me the whole trilogy has been about how there’s no way to definitively end tyranny, and how the dark side will always come back and you have to be prepared to stop it even in the face of knowing stopping it might not be permanent. To that end, I’ll be kinda upset if they “definitively” end the war, as I don’t think that’s be a very satisfying end to this story.

I think a good story should have a beginning and an end. A new story can unfold, but imo it should not be about Empire vs rebels, or a Jedi apprentice betraying his or her master. Been there, done that…twice… If you can’t tell an original story with new characters, who are put in new situations, better not tell a story at all, I think, or risk turning the franchise into a cliché. To paraphrase Bilbo Baggins, the Skywalker Saga already feels like butter scraped over too much bread for me.

You haven’t paid attention to how many fallen Jedi apprentices there are in the EU, have you? Not just in the post ROTJ, but the KOTOR as well.

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yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

On the other hand, to me the whole trilogy has been about how there’s no way to definitively end tyranny, and how the dark side will always come back and you have to be prepared to stop it even in the face of knowing stopping it might not be permanent. To that end, I’ll be kinda upset if they “definitively” end the war, as I don’t think that’s be a very satisfying end to this story.

I think a good story should have a beginning and an end. A new story can unfold, but imo it should not be about Empire vs rebels, or a Jedi apprentice betraying his or her master. Been there, done that…twice… If you can’t tell an original story with new characters, who are put in new situations, better not tell a story at all, I think, or risk turning the franchise into a cliché. To paraphrase Bilbo Baggins, the Skywalker Saga already feels like butter scraped over too much bread for me.

You haven’t paid attention to how many fallen Jedi apprentices there are in the EU, have you? Not just in the post ROTJ, but the KOTOR as well.

The fact that Star Wars is already known for retreading the same ground over and over, is not a good thing, as far as I’m concerned.

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The big question remains: what is left to be resolved? Outside of whether or not it’s been or will be botched.

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Proof that Star Wars is Dead!!!’ by HelloGreedo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YETVaYqihaM
 

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Why don’t you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don’t you dig how beautiful it is out here?
And say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

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originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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If one doesn’t exist already, a thread should be created for other old instances of Star Wars doomsday sayers through the years, possibly with a collection of inaccurate predictions!

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Wow, that article gets so much wrong. Hindsight is 20/20, of course.

It is interesting that Robert Watts was apparently planning at one point to film ROTJ’s desert scenes in Tunisia and the Endor scenes in Germany’s Black Forest.

A sign of GL and company’s exhaustion with SW & desire to just “get it done” that both locations ended up being filmed in the US, I suppose. Rather like the US-based filming of the similarly creatively bankrupt Crystal Skull.

“That Darth Vader, man. Sure does love eating Jedi.”

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SilverWook said:

Fantastic Films did a series of articles attempting to predict what would happen in ROTJ. This is the only issue I could find.
https://archive.org/details/Fantastic_Films_028_April_1982_vol4_no4_c2c-Tranzor-HQS

I know I harp on about this, but it’s interesting how the author has issues with Leia being a possible ‘other one’ because Yoda had dismissed her while she was captive on Bespin. This has always bugged me…

I was also a believer in a big connection between Palpatine and Obi Wan (mainly because I thought Guinness had played the original Emperor in TESB). I also like the idea of a major confrontation in an Imperial city rather than a rehashed Death Star.

That was a great read, thanks!

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Anyone have thoughts on the apparent Death Star wielding star destroyers that the Sith troopers are apparently a part of. With red ties and everything. Seems dumb and I hope it’s not true

The idea of having ANOTHER Death Star just makes me sad. Even if it is like 5 small ones it’s still lazy. No more planet killing super weapons. Please…

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But now they can blow up the UNIVERSE

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Shopping Maul said:

And there was this gem…

https://makingstarwars.tumblr.com/post/42857438667/1980s-fantastic-films-collectors-edition-20

Wow , just read that article and while it got a lot wrong , it did predict the episode 1 plot of Darth Vader starting out as a slave boy , and the pain inducing collar is not too unlike the chip that blows you up if you try to escape . Interesting that they knew the name Anakin Skywalker at this time . Where did that name first appear ?

https://screamsinthevoid.deviantart.com/

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Man, that old article is WILD. He put a lot more importance into the Clone Wars and cloning than it turned out to have. Man, that version of Star Wars would’ve been a lot crazier.

I think we have to accept super lasers as the Star Wars equivalent of nuclear weapons. Now that they’ve been invented, governments are inevitably going to build them. Star Destroyers with smaller super lasers are less effective but practical than massive, expensive, space stations that have gaping weaknesses. Money down the drain. Makes me think of the Eclipse in Legends, actually. It’s what they should’ve turned to after the first Death Star blew up! But I think the bad guys have an inferiority complex. And to be honest, I don’t think the fact they have super lasers will be a major factor in the plot. I don’t think it will be the focus, but it will just be a useful way to quickly illustrate this new fleet as dangerous.

Also, red Star Destroyers and TIE fighters? Uhh, yes please! Where’s your sense of childhood abandon? That’s something I totally would’ve eaten up as a kid. I would’ve loved drawing them.

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screams in the void said:

Shopping Maul said:

And there was this gem…

https://makingstarwars.tumblr.com/post/42857438667/1980s-fantastic-films-collectors-edition-20

Wow , just read that article and while it got a lot wrong , it did predict the episode 1 plot of Darth Vader starting out as a slave boy , and the pain inducing collar is not too unlike the chip that blows you up if you try to escape . Interesting that they knew the name Anakin Skywalker at this time . Where did that name first appear ?

That’s a good question, as I never heard it before ROTJ came out. Maybe Lucas dropped it in an interview at some point?

Star Wars Poster Monthly also went off on a lot of crazy speculative tangents, and that was an officially licensed publication! The only one I recall off the top of my head was one about the OT troopers being clones and how they were trained. Not sure if they were getting notes from Lucasfilm or making stuff up.
There are only three issues online that I know of.
http://www.theforce.net/timetales/misc/arcana/arcana.asp

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?