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Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 94

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Has nothing to do with canon whatsoever.

a trolling bantha

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ChainsawAsh said:

Has nothing to do with canon whatsoever.

Well there’s no argument which is canon.
I thought we were talking about influence.

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The comment of mine that you quoted in your reply specifically mentioned canon, but okay, whatever.

a trolling bantha

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Valheru_84 said:

StarkillerAG said:

ChainsawAsh said:

StarkillerAG said:

It would please both OOT and SE fans

Would it though?

Well, maybe not you, but it would please almost everyone else.

I disagree and Hayden force ghost in ROTJ SE is one of the things that pissed me off the most.

Shaw kinda doesn’t have the necessary impact the first time since you have to figure out who this rando is.

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Wasn’t a problem for anyone from 1983-2004.

a trolling bantha

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MikeWW said:

Valheru_84 said:

StarkillerAG said:

ChainsawAsh said:

StarkillerAG said:

It would please both OOT and SE fans

Would it though?

Well, maybe not you, but it would please almost everyone else.

I disagree and Hayden force ghost in ROTJ SE is one of the things that pissed me off the most.

Shaw kinda doesn’t have the necessary impact the first time since you have to figure out who this rando is.

It’s that hard to recognize his face as the one Luke saw when he took Vader’s helmet off?

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

MikeWW said:

Valheru_84 said:

StarkillerAG said:

ChainsawAsh said:

StarkillerAG said:

It would please both OOT and SE fans

Would it though?

Well, maybe not you, but it would please almost everyone else.

I disagree and Hayden force ghost in ROTJ SE is one of the things that pissed me off the most.

Shaw kinda doesn’t have the necessary impact the first time since you have to figure out who this rando is.

It’s that hard to recognize his face as the one Luke saw when he took Vader’s helmet off?

On VHS I didn’t recognize the guy.

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Which is why you should have been watching it on Laserdisc, as the video gods intended. 😛

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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I never had a problem with it. You see Vader unmasked and then a third guy shows up to the dinner party so naturally you can assume who it is. But honestly we might just wanna back off of this guy there’s no reasoning with him

TPM ROTJ ESB TFA TLJ TROS ROTS ANH SOLO RO ATOC

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dgraham414 said:

I never had a problem with it. You see Vader unmasked and then a third guy shows up to the dinner party so naturally you can assume who it is. But honestly we might just wanna back off of this guy there’s no reasoning with him

It’s not that it can’t be puzzled out. It’s that having to stop and think takes you out of the movie. Not to mention Hayden looks more like Mark than he does.

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I personally think a Watsonian argument for a young Force ghost Anakin is irrelevant. If JJ wants the Sebastian Shaw version of Force ghost Anakin, they’ll make a hamdwavy explanation for it like they did to explain how our heroes could see Starkiller destroy Hosnian Prime from across the galaxy. I think a director’s concern for canon is low-priority. The story group can just say, “Well, Force ghosts can take whatever shape they want, and Anakin decides to be his older, redeemed self at this particular moment, so it doesn’t contradict the SE ending of ROTJ.”

I can see JJ making this decision. But it does come with a few cons when you look at it outside of his own personal preference.
First of all, they might need to use CGI to recreate a version of Shaw-Anakin, like they did for Tarkin in Rogue One. To me, the biggest issue would be that anyone who grew up watching any post-2004 versions of ROTJ are used to seeing Hayden-Anakin as a Force ghost, and probably wouldn’t even recognize who he was at first.

On the other hand, having Hayden come back as Force ghost Anakin has some benefits. He will be immediately recognizable as Anakin to even the casual Star Wars fan. They could just film Hayden as he is now, since he has not aged dramatically in the past decade+ since filming Revenge. While some fans might rolls their eyes at the addition of Hayden, a lot of younger fans who grew up with the prequels and Clone Wars will likely appreciate the addition, especially since online sentiment towards the prequels seems to have turned around slightly in the past few years.

To me, audience familiarity is strongest argument for Hayden to play Force ghost Anakin.

I definitely can see arguments for or against that choice. I do think if you try to look at it objectively, having Hayden return as Anakin seem to be the most likely option, if Force ghost Anakin even appears at all (I would surprised if he did anything more than pop up briefly). Even if JJ might initially want old Anakin, I could see how he might be persuaded otherwise for those reasons. Sorry if I’m just reiterating what has already been said.

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RogueLeader said:

I personally think a Watsonian argument for a young Force ghost Anakin is irrelevant. If JJ wants the Sebastian Shaw version of Force ghost Anakin, they’ll make a hamdwavy explanation for it like they did to explain how our heroes could see Starkiller destroy Hosnian Prime from across the galaxy. I think a director’s concern for canon is low-priority. The story group can just say, “Well, Force ghosts can take whatever shape they want, and Anakin decides to be his older, redeemed self at this particular moment, so it doesn’t contradict the SE ending of ROTJ.”

I can see JJ making this decision. But it does come with a few cons when you look at it outside of his own personal preference.
First of all, they might need to use CGI to recreate a version of Shaw-Anakin, like they did for Tarkin in Rogue One. To me, the biggest issue would be that anyone who grew up watching any post-2004 versions of ROTJ are used to seeing Hayden-Anakin as a Force ghost, and probably wouldn’t even recognize who he was at first.

On the other hand, having Hayden come back as Force ghost Anakin has some benefits. He will be immediately recognizable as Anakin to even the casual Star Wars fan. They could just film Hayden as he is now, since he has not aged dramatically in the past decade+ since filming Revenge. While some fans might rolls their eyes at the addition of Hayden, a lot of younger fans who grew up with the prequels and Clone Wars will likely appreciate the addition, especially since online sentiment towards the prequels seems to have turned around slightly in the past few years.

To me, audience familiarity is strongest argument for Hayden to play Force ghost Anakin.

I definitely can see arguments for or against that choice. I do think if you try to look at it objectively, having Hayden return as Anakin seem to be the most likely option, if Force ghost Anakin even appears at all (I would surprised if he did anything more than pop up briefly). Even if JJ might initially want old Anakin, I could see how he might be persuaded otherwise for those reasons. Sorry if I’m just reiterating what has already been said.

I want Hayden, but honestly I think JJ won’t show Anakin in any form because of the issues you describe.
If the man has a mental breakdown at the sight of Podracer flags and makes his CG guys redo those shots because “my movie isn’t about podracing”, then he would never in a bajillion years put Hayden’s Anakin in his movie.

And it can’t really not be Hayden from Disney’s perspective, for the reasons you mention.

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I mean, they could still do it if they were that adamant about having the Shaw-Ghost in the film. Kylo could just say, “Grandfather?” and the audience would put two-and-two together.

But then again, JJ did have Ewan come in and do a few lines, like “Rey”, which they didn’t use, and “These are your first steps” which you can hear at the tail-end of Rey’s lightsaber vision in TFA. It’s also possible JJ was convinced, by public opinion or collaborators like his co-writer Chris Terrio or Kathleen Kennedy, that including Hayden could help tie the trilogies together and make IX feel like a culmination of all nine films, rather than just the OT.

But like I said, I would be surprised if we got a scene of Force-Anakin passing down some exposition to our heroes. A similar, brief cameo to what we got in ROTJ seems a lot more likely to me.

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MikeWW said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Wasn’t a problem for anyone from 1983-2004.

Source?

The vast majority of fans that weren’t confused in that 21 year period…? I never met anyone who didn’t recognize Shaw as Anakin before 2004. You’re really twisting things if you think it was ever an actual issue for anyone.

a trolling bantha

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ChainsawAsh said:

MikeWW said:

ChainsawAsh said:

Wasn’t a problem for anyone from 1983-2004.

Source?

The vast majority of fans that weren’t confused in that 21 year period…? I never met anyone who didn’t recognize Shaw as Anakin before 2004. You’re really twisting things if you think it was ever an actual issue for anyone.

You’d be surprised. When VHS is the only major way to watch the movies.

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You act like you’re the only person who existed during that time, therefore only your perceptions have merit.

a trolling bantha

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ChainsawAsh said:

You act like you’re the only person who existed during that time, therefore only your perceptions have merit.

I’m phrasing it how I am because you keep dealing in baseless absolutes.

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Oh, I’m sorry, I didn’t realize “a majority of fans” was an absolute statement. I didn’t realize that meant “literally every single person who ever saw the movie.” Sorry. Guess I need to go back to elementary school and re-learn how to speak English.

You’re the one who seems insistent that it was this huge gaping problem until Wise Old George decided to fix this massive flaw in the narrative.

a trolling bantha

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ChainsawAsh said:

Oh, I’m sorry, I didn’t realize “a majority of fans” was an absolute statement. I didn’t realize that meant “literally every single person who ever saw the movie.” Sorry. Guess I need to go back to elementary school and re-learn how to speak English.

You’re the one who seems insistent that it was this huge gaping problem until Wise Old George decided to fix this massive flaw in the narrative.

Put it this way,
George Lucas>Mike Stoklasa+JJ Abrams

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I googled the Mike guy and it seems to be some YouTuber I don’t give a shit about, so I really don’t see your point here.

In fact, I don’t really see your point in any of this, so I’m bowing out before I get in trouble.

a trolling bantha

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The whole thing has become ridiculously complicated because Lucas basically changed his mind about Anakin’s age. Back in '83 Anakin was supposed to be an old man. Lucas even said “in his 60s” or something similar at the time. Assuming that Obi Wan and Owen were also supposed to be older than the prequels implied, this all made perfect sense and the appearance of Shaw at Ewok-fest was absolutely fine.

It was only when George suddenly decided ROTJ Anakin had to be in his mid-40s - and corrected it with the dumbest SE change since the Han debacle - did this become a canon issue.

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I guess he wasn’t too worried about how badly Owen and Beru age in only 20 years. Otherwise he would have cast actors that were a bit older for AOTC.

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Where were you in '77?