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Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 85

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DrDre said:

SWOTFAN25 said:

I wouldn’t say Rey’s character is perfectly written but I really don’t think its fair to say that she just waits around for what the writers tell her to do at all. She gets thrust into a journey initially to help BB8, but then she meets her mentor, Han Solo. Her personal stake on the cause for the resistance comes from the fact that she gets tortured by Kylo and then watches him kill the only person who ever offered her an opportunity. She picks up the lightsaber at the end in order to defend herself but more importantly it represents an opportunity to finally find her purpose, which she has lacked her whole life. This is further explored in tlj when she basically learns that nobody is going to show her where she belongs and that she must define it for herself. She defines what being a jedi is FOR HERSELF, by following the lessons from the OT, which culminates in parting ways from kylo saving her friends. Just like luke defined what being a jedi was for himself in rotj when he saved his father instead of killing him (which obi-wan says he should do btw) Furthermore in tlj Luke REALLY defines what a jedi is. I don’t really think I have to explain this part. My only concern is that Rey will never have to learn the lesson Luke leanred in tlj. The lesson of failure…

I really want to hear both sides viewpoint on this. I’m just sad that we have to be so extreme in our views guys. We are all on the same side here. We all just want our star wars to be the best it can be with the way it is written. I just hope we can all be open to the future, and to give IX a chance.

Some people like Rey as a character, some people don’t, and some are in the middle. I’m in the middle leaning a bit more to the don’t side. There are things I like about her character, and how she was used in the story, and others I don’t. Overall the dislikes outweigh the likes for me, but I’m sure it will be different for other people. All of these positions are fine, and there’s no right or wrong in these discussions. It’s a shame some take these arguments so personally, and can’t keep emotions out of discussions, which should be restricted to the content of the films.

Since you’re in the middle about the ST in general I want to know what you would want to see in TROS not just for Rey but as a whole?

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SWOTFAN25 said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

OutboundFlight said:

I am also a bit confused towards Rey’s motivation.

I agree with Don in that Rey wants to belong somewhere. An expected reaction for someone so isolated. Further evidence for this:

  • She is in denial that her family will come in TFA
  • She saves BB8, her only friend possibly ever. Her insistence on getting BB8 to the resistance may be due to he trying to help the only friend she has even known.
  • She never outright helps the resistance. She only wields the lightsaber to save Finn, a friend.
  • She asks Luke to “show me her place in all this”.
  • It seems she only wants to know her parents after she is turned down by Luke. Luke’s grumpiness causes Rey to doubt the Jedi way and ponder about her parents once more (the cave).
  • She then develops a force connection with Ben and comes to believe he may have what she seeks (a place to belong to).

All this is building to Rey taking Ben’s hand.

Why would Rey want to join the Jedi? Luke has done nothing but criticize her. We all know the Jedi way is right, but from her POV she just met this grumpy hermit who doesn’t want her. Why should she care about the Jedi?

It seems Rey’s primary motivation in turning down Kylo is because she has friends in the resistance? Like Finn and BB8? But the entire film has been building up Kylo and Rey’s relationship. As for the “she realizes she does not need a purpose, she can make one herself” well wasn’t that where she was before TFA. On her own with no one?

I think Rey would have been a great character had she taken Ben’s hand and charted us a new, bold direction for TROS.

Now she feels more like a missed opportunity bordering “perfect” which is a shame given how close we were. I hope TROS does the best job they can with Rey- if they provide some clarification on her motivation I think the whole Mary Sue argument will finally be over.

First of all, Rey had no purpose on Jakku besides waiting for her parents to show up and give her one. Being able to take care of yourself does not mean you have a purpose in life. Her life was literally in wait.

This pretty much summarizes the flaws that were built into her character from the first moment she appears on screen. She has no history, character, or purpose. She’s sympathetic, and self-reliant, and that’s about it. She’s literally waiting for whatever the writers decide will be her destiny. She’s a void waiting to be filled. Her character is thus entirely story and plot driven, rather than character driven. Her decisions, and character traits aren’t informed by her history, and experiences.

From the moment she appears on screen I would say she has all of those things.
History: Rey was abandoned by her parents as a child and remained a scavenging junkyard orphan her whole life. She has no family, or friends at the start of TFA. She is initially very hostile towards both BB8 and finn. From the very beginning she thinks her purpose is to wait for her family to come back one day.

She has no family or friends, and she’s just waiting for a family, that will never come. She’s had a hard life, but somehow remains naive, optimistic, and hopeful. To me this is a character who is passive, and waiting for whatever the writers have in store for her. Her character development is heavily plot driven, relying mostly on where the writers want her to be. Aside from an innate goodness, which drives some of her decisions, she has little personal motivations or stakes in the story. The writers gave her no purpose in life, other than to wait for a family that will never come back, such that she can be an avatar for the light side of the Force. She quite literally has been put on hold with nothing better to do, or nobody better to spend time with. As such it is not a matter of choice for her, but her destiny to be whatever the writers want her to be. I don’t like this aspect of her character.

Her character seems pretty clear to me as well. She is trying to find her purpose, and she cares about her friends because they are the first people to have ever shown care for her. She joins the resistance becuase she gets tortured and her her friends get murdered by the first order. She knows she has to become a jedi because she thinks this will give her purpose.

If she makes friends so easily with the first two outsiders she runs into, why doesn’t she have any friends, or connections on Jakku? She seems friendly, and competent enough. Why does she wait close to two decades to make friends with a droid, and a guy pretending to be part of the Resistance? Why is she so naive, given the hard life she has led? For me TFA succeeded in making her sympathetic, but left a lot of questions with regards to who she is, and why she is, who she is, seemingly out of place in such a harsh environment. By ignoring these questions, and just stating she’s nobody, and comes from nowhere, TLJ has cemented the idea that she was just an empty vessel waiting for some decision from on high to turn her into somebody. While I like the idea of a hero coming from a humble background, to me this does not imply a character cannot have a personal history with friends, experiences, desires, mistakes, strengths, and weaknesses. The idea that a character has no life, and a history, but to wait for something to change, and that change be forced upon her through circumstances, and the will of the Force is difficult to appreciate from a character development perspective. Her acceptance of her role in the story lacks dramatic tension, since she obviously has nothing better to do, or go back to, and no previous relationships to continue.

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SWOTFAN25 said:

DrDre said:

SWOTFAN25 said:

I wouldn’t say Rey’s character is perfectly written but I really don’t think its fair to say that she just waits around for what the writers tell her to do at all. She gets thrust into a journey initially to help BB8, but then she meets her mentor, Han Solo. Her personal stake on the cause for the resistance comes from the fact that she gets tortured by Kylo and then watches him kill the only person who ever offered her an opportunity. She picks up the lightsaber at the end in order to defend herself but more importantly it represents an opportunity to finally find her purpose, which she has lacked her whole life. This is further explored in tlj when she basically learns that nobody is going to show her where she belongs and that she must define it for herself. She defines what being a jedi is FOR HERSELF, by following the lessons from the OT, which culminates in parting ways from kylo saving her friends. Just like luke defined what being a jedi was for himself in rotj when he saved his father instead of killing him (which obi-wan says he should do btw) Furthermore in tlj Luke REALLY defines what a jedi is. I don’t really think I have to explain this part. My only concern is that Rey will never have to learn the lesson Luke leanred in tlj. The lesson of failure…

I really want to hear both sides viewpoint on this. I’m just sad that we have to be so extreme in our views guys. We are all on the same side here. We all just want our star wars to be the best it can be with the way it is written. I just hope we can all be open to the future, and to give IX a chance.

Some people like Rey as a character, some people don’t, and some are in the middle. I’m in the middle leaning a bit more to the don’t side. There are things I like about her character, and how she was used in the story, and others I don’t. Overall the dislikes outweigh the likes for me, but I’m sure it will be different for other people. All of these positions are fine, and there’s no right or wrong in these discussions. It’s a shame some take these arguments so personally, and can’t keep emotions out of discussions, which should be restricted to the content of the films.

Since you’re in the middle about the ST in general I want to know what you would want to see in TROS not just for Rey but as a whole?

I would like to see a movie, that both honours the past, and allows the new characters to forge a future for themselves. Too much of the successes of this new generation have depended on the old guard either failing or becoming passive in their old age. I liked the TROS teaser, and hope that with this film we will finally become less dependent on nostalgia, and minimize the endless recycling of OT plot threads, and iconography. Star Wars has been stuck in the past for quite some time. I hope this film will change that. The new “big three” have been portrayed by incredibly talented people, and like Luke, Han, and Leia, I hope this new film further develops their relationship, and personal history, building on the obvious chemistry, and charisma these actors and their characters have displayed over the course of two films.

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Gee, I don’t know what movie others saw, but in TFA I saw a lonely girl clinging to the slim hope her parents were coming back, eeeking out a meager existence as a junk scavenger that was getting worse by the day if not week. The movie gave enough evidence there were few if any people she could trust. Whatever relationship she had with Unkar Plutt clearly had turned sour. It took interacting with BB, and Finn, and later Han, to realize she was waiting in vain. She wasn’t being naive, she was whistling in the dark.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/whistling-in-the-dark

Jakku makes Tatooine look like Disneyland. 😉

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

Gee, I don’t know what movie others saw, but in TFA I saw a lonely girl clinging to the slim hope her parents were coming back, eeeking out a meager existence as a junk scavenger that was getting worse by the day if not week. The movie gave enough evidence there were few if any people she could trust. Whatever relationship she had with Unkar Plutt clearly had turned sour. It took interacting with BB, and Finn, and later Han, to realize she was waiting in vain. She wasn’t being naive, she was whistling in the dark.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/whistling-in-the-dark

Jakku makes Tatooine look like Disneyland. 😉

Given what little we find out about her past, her behaviour is more befitting a ten year old girl, than a twenty year old with her intelligence, and skill level. I don’t think her age, and demeanor are consistent with what we know about her past. She’s not being held against her will, she is self-reliant to the point, that she essentially could leave at any time to find out more about her parents, and make a better future for herself. She held the key to her own prison, and the main reason she stayed is essentially, because the writers needed her to stay put until the events of the film. The information given was perfectly fine as a setup, but her character needed fleshing out in subsequent installments. A lot of viewers in my view logically expected further development of her past, but sadly that thusfar hasn’t happened. I’m happy JJ confirmed we will be finding out more about that in TROS. It is long overdue.

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Where exactly was she going to look? She has nothing to go on except an early memory of being left behind. Even the Sith cave couldn’t show her an image of her parents, which would have been as easy way to seduce her.
If you cling to the belief your parents are coming back to the place they left you, there’s a big psychological hangup about leaving that place, even for a day. It’s not rational or realistic to anyone else but her, as most forlorn hopes tend to be.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

Where exactly was she going to look? She has nothing to go on except an early memory of being left behind. Even the Sith cave couldn’t show her an image of her parents, which would have been as easy way to seduce her.
If you cling to the belief your parents are coming back to the place they left you, there’s a big psychological hangup about leaving that place, even for a day. It’s not rational or realistic to anyone else but her, as most forlorn hopes tend to be.

Perhaps, but this to me is a major issue in the ST thusfar in my view, where motivations are too thinly drawn. She’s staying there on a fool’s hope, end of story. Luke blames himself for what happened with Ben Solo, and now believes ending the Jedi is somehow the best solution, end of story. Han Solo lost his son to Snoke somehow, and then left his wife, and gave up for some reason, and went back to a life of smuggling, end of story. All of these characters have in common, that their lifes were put on hold for a decade or more mostly for unexplored reasons, conveniently waiting for the events of the ST to unfold.

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SilverWook said:

Where exactly was she going to look? She has nothing to go on except an early memory of being left behind. Even the Sith cave couldn’t show her an image of her parents, which would have been as easy way to seduce her.
If you cling to the belief your parents are coming back to the place they left you, there’s a big psychological hangup about leaving that place, even for a day. It’s not rational or realistic to anyone else but her, as most forlorn hopes tend to be.

It’s actually a very compelling dramatic element to her story, however where I think Dre has a problem is that it needs to be more essential to her personality/decisions. Definitly don’t think the “she should act her age” argument holds any water though.

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SWOTFAN25 said:

SilverWook said:

Where exactly was she going to look? She has nothing to go on except an early memory of being left behind. Even the Sith cave couldn’t show her an image of her parents, which would have been as easy way to seduce her.
If you cling to the belief your parents are coming back to the place they left you, there’s a big psychological hangup about leaving that place, even for a day. It’s not rational or realistic to anyone else but her, as most forlorn hopes tend to be.

It’s actually a very compelling dramatic element to her story, however where I think Dre has a problem is that it needs to be more essential to her personality/decisions. Definitly don’t think the “she should act her age” argument holds any water though.

I say act her age, because the character is kept passive and uninformed seemingly never exploring any other possibilities or solutions for her situation, because it’s convenient to the writers, not because it seems the logical choice for a person of her age, skill set, and intelligence to not ever explore any other options. The only reason given for her staying so passive and inactive is a fool’s hope, and the films make a compelling case, that she is no fool, and really rather impulsive and pro-active in her actions, once she meets BB-8 and Finn.

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One person’s fool’s hope is another’s passionate belief. She finally met someone worth caring about, perhaps?

Rey seems to fit into the reluctant hero archetype. Luke is the opposite because he’s screaming to get away from home. Once Owen and Beru are conveniently not an issue, he’s got no problem leaving.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

Where exactly was she going to look? She has nothing to go on except an early memory of being left behind. Even the Sith cave couldn’t show her an image of her parents, which would have been as easy way to seduce her.
If you cling to the belief your parents are coming back to the place they left you, there’s a big psychological hangup about leaving that place, even for a day. It’s not rational or realistic to anyone else but her, as most forlorn hopes tend to be.

I think that’s the most concise explanation of who she is in TFA that I’ve ever read. For me, that’s when she was her most compelling as a character.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

"Why are you here, Rey from nowhere?”

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Isn’t Rey’s foolish hope just the lie she tells herself? Like people can be logical but also be illogical when it comes to family or daddy/mommy issues.

It’s possible that the hope of her parents returning was what allowed her to survive for so long. It was her willpower to preservere because of that hope. So she she stayed on Jakku because she thought it was only a matter of time for her parents to come back for her. It could be any day now, so she was waiting for them, because that was what she wanted more than leaving Jakku or being a hero, she wanted to be with her family again.

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RogueLeader said:

It’s possible that the hope of her parents returning was what allowed her to survive for so long. It was her willpower to preservere because of that hope.

Indeed. My interpretation of the character as written is that of devotee/true believer. TFA is steeped in Medieval European imagery more than the previous installments, and Rey’s characterization is similar to Galahad in search of the Grail (also a contrast to Anakin as Lancelot).

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The only part of the ST so far where Rey was a very enjoyable character to me was definitely the first half hour or so of TFA. Then she was OK until the mind trick, and after that it all went downhill…

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Omni said:

The only part of the ST so far where Rey was a very enjoyable character to me was definitely the first half hour or so of TFA. Then she was OK until the mind trick, and after that it all went downhill…

I agree. I think her introduction is one of the better examples of visual story telling, and her portrayal made her instantly likable. I think the introduction of all the new characters was handled quite well. It’s a shame, that TLJ decided to go for subversion, rather than to further develop the relationships between these lead characters, who obviously have a lot of chemistry together. I’m happy they will be going on an adventure together in TROS.

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DrDre said:
I’m happy they will be going on an adventure together in TROS.

I agree! Like you said, the actors have a lot of chemistry together, so it’ll be nice to see those interactions.

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Everyone has their own opinions, but I’m honestly starting to wonder if the effect and quality of the prequels put a bad taste in fans’ mouths for any future/modern Star Wars content.

Noah Lawson

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nl0428 said:

Everyone has their own opinions, but I’m honestly starting to wonder if the effect and quality of the prequels put a bad taste in fans’ mouths for any future/modern Star Wars content.

Nah, it’s not the prequels fault, I believe. Those films have flaws in different departments. In a lot of ways the PT and ST are two sides of the same coin, where that coin is the OT. Both trilogies capture some of the good parts of the OT, but also miss essential elements in my view. While I think the PT has deeper valleys than the ST, I also feel the PT brought more new elements to the table, and greatly expanded the universe and its lore, while the ST thusfar seems stuck in the past, recycling too much of the OT to really be considered a new story. Additionally, the PT is part of one bigger story, whereas the ST in my view has struggled to supply reasons for its own existence in terms of the larger narrative beyond some entertainment values, and franchise extension. This will be TROS biggest challenge imo, supplying those connections, and bringing the nine part story full circle, such that the ST will not end up being merely an appendix to Lucas’ six film saga.

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Omni said:

The only part of the ST so far where Rey was a very enjoyable character to me was definitely the first half hour or so of TFA. Then she was OK until the mind trick, and after that it all went downhill…

Bro even Watto knows what a mindtrick is. It’s not a big deal when you look at it objectively.

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SWOTFAN25 said:

Omni said:

The only part of the ST so far where Rey was a very enjoyable character to me was definitely the first half hour or so of TFA. Then she was OK until the mind trick, and after that it all went downhill…

Bro even Watto knows what a mindtrick is. It’s not a big deal when you look at it objectively.

I know what an airplane is. That doesn’t mean I can fly one. The fact that Watto’s species aren’t susceptible to a Jedi mind trick, doesn’t imply he knows how to perform one. Since his insensitivity is related to his species, it’s very likely a biological effect, and thus one he has no control over. The previous six movies make it pretty clear the Jedi mind trick is not easy to learn, and Luke only performs it by the start of ROTJ, when he’s had a few years of training and practise. Either way since TLJ makes it clear her powers grow stronger with Kylo Ren’s, it makes no difference how difficult it is to master, since those rules don’t apply to her.

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Legit question, what do you need to know to be able to do a mindtrick?

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DrDre said:

nl0428 said:

Everyone has their own opinions, but I’m honestly starting to wonder if the effect and quality of the prequels put a bad taste in fans’ mouths for any future/modern Star Wars content.

Nah, it’s not the prequels fault, I believe. Those films have flaws in different departments. In a lot of ways the PT and ST are two sides of the same coin, where that coin is the OT. Both trilogies capture some of the good parts of the OT, but also miss essential elements in my view. While I think the PT has deeper valleys than the ST, I also feel the PT brought more new elements to the table, and greatly expanded the universe and its lore, while the ST thusfar seems stuck in the past, recycling too much of the OT to really be considered a new story. Additionally, the PT is part of one bigger story, whereas the ST in my view has struggled to supply reasons for its own existence in terms of the larger narrative beyond some entertainment values, and franchise extension. This will be TROS biggest challenge imo, supplying those connections, and bringing the nine part story full circle, such that the ST will not end up being merely an appendix to Lucas’ six film saga.

I still think the sequel trilogy is far superior than the prequels.

Noah Lawson

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nl0428 said:

DrDre said:

nl0428 said:

Everyone has their own opinions, but I’m honestly starting to wonder if the effect and quality of the prequels put a bad taste in fans’ mouths for any future/modern Star Wars content.

Nah, it’s not the prequels fault, I believe. Those films have flaws in different departments. In a lot of ways the PT and ST are two sides of the same coin, where that coin is the OT. Both trilogies capture some of the good parts of the OT, but also miss essential elements in my view. While I think the PT has deeper valleys than the ST, I also feel the PT brought more new elements to the table, and greatly expanded the universe and its lore, while the ST thusfar seems stuck in the past, recycling too much of the OT to really be considered a new story. Additionally, the PT is part of one bigger story, whereas the ST in my view has struggled to supply reasons for its own existence in terms of the larger narrative beyond some entertainment values, and franchise extension. This will be TROS biggest challenge imo, supplying those connections, and bringing the nine part story full circle, such that the ST will not end up being merely an appendix to Lucas’ six film saga.

I still think the sequel trilogy is far superior than the prequels.

Which is fine, I do to at a surface level of popcorn entertainment, but when I dig a little deeper, I get more out of the PT.

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RogueLeader said:

Legit question, what do you need to know to be able to do a mindtrick?

Who knows, all we have is the previous films, which consistently show these skills are hard to master. As I stated above Luke who is part of an extremely powerful lineage only manages to perform one by the start of ROTJ after years of training, and practise.

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RogueLeader said:

Legit question, what do you need to know to be able to do a mindtrick?

Since it was never taught to anyone, nothing. Beyond the knowledge that such a trick exists.

DrDre said:

Which is fine, I do to at a surface level of popcorn entertainment, but when I dig a little deeper, I get more out of the PT.

Really? I’d say they’re equally hollow except without being entertaining.

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